Are you a Jerk and oblivious to the fact?

[whitecoast]

People just don't seem to have a thorough knowledge of themselves, or the desire to aquire it, which would naturally include awareness of others' perception of them, OSIT.

More than just include awareness of others' perception of us, it seems that the only really reliable way to 'see' ourselves is through the eyes of others. Of course, it is crucial to find 'others' who can be relied on to give objective feedback. That's why a network like this one is indispensable to the Work on the self.

I wonder if the best way to counteract this is to just pay very close attention to other people's body language, tone, etc. If you are being over-assertive, it's pretty easy to see if people are going into a defensive posture (such as slumping/collapsing, or looking as if they don't know where to place their hands).

I wonder what things you could look for in others to determine if they're over-assertive? Perhaps eye-rolling or other dismissive actions indicating disrespect...

 

[hlat]

I don't think we need help in determining the assertiveness of other people; we need help from others to determine our own assertiveness level.

 

[Laura]

I wonder if the best way to counteract this is to just pay very close attention to other people's body language, tone, etc. If you are being over-assertive, it's pretty easy to see if people are going into a defensive posture (such as slumping/collapsing, or looking as if they don't know where to place their hands).

But if you read the other study, you see that people often can't read other people's facial expressions or body language accurately! They lie to themselves and see what they want to see!

I don't think we need help in determining the assertiveness of other people; we need help from others to determine our own assertiveness level.

Exactly. And the only way to get that is to ask and then to listen to feedback, really take it onboard and not spend a lot of energy and effort second-guessing and making narratives to tell the other person how they have it all wrong because that isn't what happened because it isn't what you intended or how you see yourself.

 

[Redrock12]

I don't think we need help in determining the assertiveness of other people; we need help from others to determine our own assertiveness level.

Exactly. And the only way to get that is to ask and then to listen to feedback, really take it onboard and not spend a lot of energy and effort second-guessing and making narratives to tell the other person how they have it all wrong because that isn't what happened because it isn't what you intended or how you see yourself.

Yep, and the best place to get feedback is in this forum, by reading and participating in threads such, and being objective.
Suffice to say that I have more than enough examples of my own overly-assertive behavior to mention.

Edit=Quote

 

[trendsetter37]

I wonder if the best way to counteract this is to just pay very close attention to other people's body language, tone, etc. If you are being over-assertive, it's pretty easy to see if people are going into a defensive posture (such as slumping/collapsing, or looking as if they don't know where to place their hands).

But if you read the other study, you see that people often can't read other people's facial expressions or body language accurately! They lie to themselves and see what they want to see!

I don't think we need help in determining the assertiveness of other people; we need help from others to determine our own assertiveness level.

Exactly. And the only way to get that is to ask and then to listen to feedback, really take it onboard and not spend a lot of energy and effort second-guessing and making narratives to tell the other person how they have it all wrong because that isn't what happened because it isn't what you intended or how you see yourself.

Yea this can really throw a monkey wrench into everything. Sometimes I myself prefer to look into other peoples eyes because like blinking uncontrollably when the wind blows sand in your face; people, myself included, seem to not be able to mask some type of opinion on the interaction through their eyes. But again correct interpretation of these little nuances is key. Osit.

In contrast, and in the spirit of thinking about different pathological states of the psyche these waters become muddied very quickly using the above approach. For instance if someone was psychopathic and gave signals that were opposite of a normal functioning individual. Or maybe if someone was running a program that caused them to enjoy being commanded by your over-bearing assertiveness what do you do? Their body language in this scenario is essentially giving you a false positives or negatives. But objectively one could be a real jerk face in this said interaction.

I guess this is where it takes multiple objectively minded individuals to assess any situation accurately rather than depending on your own interpretations.

 

[A Jay]

I wonder if the best way to counteract this is to just pay very close attention to other people's body language, tone, etc. If you are being over-assertive, it's pretty easy to see if people are going into a defensive posture (such as slumping/collapsing, or looking as if they don't know where to place their hands).

But if you read the other study, you see that people often can't read other people's facial expressions or body language accurately! They lie to themselves and see what they want to see!

I don't think we need help in determining the assertiveness of other people; we need help from others to determine our own assertiveness level.

Exactly. And the only way to get that is to ask and then to listen to feedback, really take it onboard and not spend a lot of energy and effort second-guessing and making narratives to tell the other person how they have it all wrong because that isn't what happened because it isn't what you intended or how you see yourself.

Yea this can really throw a monkey wrench into everything. Sometimes I myself prefer to look into other peoples eyes because like blinking uncontrollably when the wind blows sand in your face; people, myself included, seem to not be able to mask some type of opinion on the interaction through their eyes. But again correct interpretation of these little nuances is key. Osit.

In contrast, and in the spirit of thinking about different pathological states of the psyche these waters become muddied very quickly using the above approach. For instance if someone was psychopathic and gave signals that were opposite of a normal functioning individual. Or maybe if someone was running a program that caused them to enjoy being commanded by your over-bearing assertiveness what do you do? Their body language in this scenario is essentially giving you a false positives or negatives. But objectively one could be a real jerk face in this said interaction.

I guess this is where it takes multiple objectively minded individuals to assess any situation accurately rather than depending on your own interpretations.

Agreed, this study definitely reinforces how necessary a collinear network is in order to see things clearly and objectively.

 

[edgitarra]

I agree with the "jerk" theory. But what if people around have become so full of egoism, so extreme in "I like" and "I don't like", so selfish that when they make you a jerk it is just because of their extreme state of comfort?

Some scenarios that ran trough my mind:
What if I am called a jerk by a guy who is too lazy to wake up from his bed to get a glass of water for himself?
What if I am called a jerk, just because I was driving correctly on the road, and another guy wanted to exceed the limit speed?
What if I am called a jerk, because I refuse the invitation of some friends to go out with them, telling them that I really am sick and they don't want to understand?

So then, how do I know when I am a jerk or not?

 

[Approaching Infinity]

I agree with the "jerk" theory. But what if people around have become so full of egoism, so extreme in "I like" and "I don't like", so selfish that when they make you a jerk it is just because of their extreme state of comfort?

Some scenarios that ran trough my mind:
What if I am called a jerk by a guy who is too lazy to wake up from his bed to get a glass of water for himself?
What if I am called a jerk, just because I was driving correctly on the road, and another guy wanted to exceed the limit speed?
What if I am called a jerk, because I refuse the invitation of some friends to go out with them, telling them that I really am sick and they don't want to understand?

So then, how do I know when I am a jerk or not?

That's where having a reliable network comes into play, people who have a track record of giving good feedback. Interacting in the forum can give some indications (some people really come across as jerks in the way they communicate online), while some need to be observed in person. I don't think there's any easy answer; a lot of people in ordinary life can see if we're jerks or not, but often do not say anything because they want to 'be nice.' Also, sometimes (even in the situations you described) it may seem to us that the other people are just out to lunch, when in fact, we ARE jerks towards them. E.g., let's say someone wants to speed and you're going the speed limit. If you're giving them the finger and changing lanes so they can't pass you, that can be somewhat jerkish behavior, IMO.

 

[David]

Could one say that Jerk/unthinking is default human setting for which resembles chief feature for everybody... just variations on Jerkiness... from the smallest thing to the biggest unthinking selfish action one could think of... or a stupid program that begins with no close box, runs with very little input and ends badly, which can mirror ones life, stemming from ones chief feature... which masks something that manifested not because of something in the here and now, but from the past... where Jerk can bring up the Jerk in ourselves... that I that is a Jerk... the active Jerk or the passive Jerk that thinks the other Guy is a Jerk.

We get upset and react like Jerk... like slot machine when different pennies drop and different apples and oranges... come up... I like I dislike... all that stuff... and no change come out of this, only by luck.

Maybe

 

[obyvatel]

I agree with the "jerk" theory. But what if people around have become so full of egoism, so extreme in "I like" and "I don't like", so selfish that when they make you a jerk it is just because of their extreme state of comfort?

Well technically being a jerk means behaving in a rude, obnoxious way. With that in mind

[quote author=edgitarra]
Some scenarios that ran trough my mind:
What if I am called a jerk by a guy who is too lazy to wake up from his bed to get a glass of water for himself?
[/quote]

You mean the guy asks you to get a glass of water - you respond - and then he calls you a jerk - right? So what kind of response are you thinking about from your side when you imagine this situation? Also what emotions if any do you feel when imagining some hypothetical "lazy" person asking you to get a glass of water?

[quote author=edgitarra]
What if I am called a jerk, just because I was driving correctly on the road, and another guy wanted to exceed the limit speed?
[/quote]

Do you think you behaved in a rude, obnoxious manner by driving correctly on the road? In your imagined scenario, it is more likely that a potential reaction to a provocation from the other guy could be construed as a "jerk-like" behavior - like AI mentioned.

[quote author=edgitarra]
What if I am called a jerk, because I refuse the invitation of some friends to go out with them, telling them that I really am sick and they don't want to understand?
[/quote]

If your "friends" do not understand that you are sick and do not want to go out, then they are more likely to call you a wimp rather than a jerk.

[quote author=edgitarra]
So then, how do I know when I am a jerk or not?
[/quote]

Usually when someone behaves rudely or devalues other people through his actions, he behaves in a jerk-like way. It is not always apparent to oneself and needs objective input from others to realize this. Many other times, one is aware to some extent that he behaved inappropriately but justifies his actions with "the other party somehow deserved it". Such justifications are something one can start working on right away.

 

[Ennio]

In his very gentle and humorous way, Dr. Dwayne Dwyer reads a poem called 'The Cookie Thief' that speaks to being an oblivious jerk quite well. When I first heard it, I had thought of the splitting thread which has much in common with what's being discussed here.

_https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ASlyZwgLXU

 

[edgitarra]

Thank you. In the places I used to live, a lot of people behaved jerky with me. Apparently, these scenarios were a result of my inner revolt to people. I still cannot forgive people, still cannot be compassionate. It is hard to accept people as they are.

You mean the guy asks you to get a glass of water - you respond - and then he calls you a jerk - right? So what kind of response are you thinking about from your side when you imagine this situation? Also what emotions if any do you feel when imagining some hypothetical "lazy" person asking you to get a glass of water?

My response would have been not bringing a glass of water in this scenario. Hence the guy calling me a jerk. I would be angry with him, but politely refusing to bring a glass of water. Some people can be impossible in that way, but this is the impossible I have to work with.

[quote author=edgitarra]
What if I am called a jerk, just because I was driving correctly on the road, and another guy wanted to exceed the limit speed?

Do you think you behaved in a rude, obnoxious manner by driving correctly on the road? In your imagined scenario, it is more likely that a potential reaction to a provocation from the other guy could be construed as a "jerk-like" behavior - like AI mentioned. [/quote]

I don't think i behaved in a rude manner, if i were to have a driver's license and a car.

[quote author=edgitarra]
What if I am called a jerk, because I refuse the invitation of some friends to go out with them, telling them that I really am sick and they don't want to understand?

If your "friends" do not understand that you are sick and do not want to go out, then they are more likely to call you a wimp rather than a jerk.
[/quote]

I guess I've been called a wimp, to some extent.

[quote author=edgitarra]
So then, how do I know when I am a jerk or not?

Usually when someone behaves rudely or devalues other people through his actions, he behaves in a jerk-like way. It is not always apparent to oneself and needs objective input from others to realize this. Many other times, one is aware to some extent that he behaved inappropriately but justifies his actions with "the other party somehow deserved it". Such justifications are something one can start working on right away.
[/quote]
I am a jerk sometimes. And it is not pleasant to catch it only after an action was done.

 

[Muxel]

A case in point:

Q: (L) Why do you say "penance"?

A: “Guest” has lived in a remarkably narcissistic bubble for some time despite all our encouragement. Admitting it, seeing it, atoning by awakening true conscience is essential, and soon. Constant observing of the self and journaling and other contemplation. Perhaps Ark will share some of his journals. You have a similar nature though he is more naturally empathic. Beware, there is a "cutoff" point past which there are no further opportunities in this life.

Q: (Guest) Would regular Eiriu Eolas breathing help?

A: More important would be dream work. There are strong past life influences.

(Guest) When they mentioned the "admitting it, seeing it, atoning", is that the process for awakening true conscience?

A: Yes. First admit that you are a "jerk". This must be viscerally known. You must understand that you have been reacting all your life based on emotions from another life that is over and those feelings do not apply here and now.

Q: (L) It's a tall order.

A: Yes

Q: (Guest) Is it too tall?

A: No

Q: (Bubbles) Can he do it?

A: We think so.

Q: (L) From him to whom much is given, much is required. When somebody has many gifts, they are expected to use them. You have many gifts. What are they for, if not first to be applied to organizing yourself?

A: One note to Guest: A key to observing the self is to turn the attention simultaneously towards others to notice their true reactions to what you think you are doing or how you think you are being perceived.

 

[Mikey]

I wonder if the best way to counteract this is to just pay very close attention to other people's body language, tone, etc. If you are being over-assertive, it's pretty easy to see if people are going into a defensive posture (such as slumping/collapsing, or looking as if they don't know where to place their hands).

But if you read the other study, you see that people often can't read other people's facial expressions or body language accurately! They lie to themselves and see what they want to see!

If such postures or face expressions of others could be read accurately and immediately, it already would help a lot in fighting 'jerkiness' amongst people. Yes, there is this study that says that people can't accurately read facial expressions, but armed with this knowledge, we might as well correct for it and try to see the immeditate impact we have on others.

Good results obviously can come only in a group setting, since when person A is a jerk to person B, person B might not perceive the jerkiness due to psychological injuries, whereas persons C, D and E can see it clearly.

Or conversely, a person B could wrongly perceive 'jerkiness' in person A while person A did not behave like a jerk, as confirmed by persons C, D and E. In this case, person B would have a fragile psychological make up, expecting others to 'walk on eggshells' around them.

But 'unspoken' feedback is not limited to postures or facial expressions. A person on the receiving end of 'jerkiness' might cover his hurt well (no visible change in posture or facial expressions), but might rather avoid person B for a few days until the brain chemicals have normalized.

So, it's indeed a multi-faceted, complex problem requiring a lot of awareness, observation, knowledge, love (as in truly caring for others), will, and energy to overcome.

 

[nicklebleu]

When I read this thread first, my reaction to it was "I am NOT a jerk!". Funny enough a few days later I had a situation where I behaved as a complete jerk. It was in reaction to a new way of doing things, which I don't like, but it is imposed on us in some ways. I started arguing in quite forceful manner with the "messenger" about "this bullshit" and really came across as a real jerk. I went to apologize later, but then the damage was already done. So I had to revise my initial impression.

In general I am under-assertive as well (anyway that's how I perceive myself, migt be wrong). I have learned to be more assertive in my job, because I am the team leader there and the responsability ends with me in most instances. Which has been quite a challange for me, because I would do things that I didn't really want to do in the past, and then if things went "south" I would have to defend a position that wasn't mine to start with. I have learned to be more assertive in this particular area, and that has been very positive. Because communicating what I want and why before we embark on a case in a calm manner really brings everyone onto the same page, creating a calm work atmosphere. If someone objects to the course of action I am able in this environment to take in their suggestions, and then either change my plan or reject the suggestion, whithout things becoming a big deal.

But I realize, that by being latently under-assertive, resentment can build up over issues, and at some point I blow my cap off, pouring all the accumulated resentment into the present situation, which then of course is totally inappropriate. I could have stopped the process at the very beginning by asserting myself better. And I think that this is what happend in the example above - partly because this new way is imposed on us without recourse, and I felt it had it's benefits, but was also unsafer.

So it seems to me that both being under- and over-assertive can lead to you coming across as a total jerk. What we need to do is to react to any situation where we don't feel comfortable right away, before all these underlying emotions accumulate and make our future responses totally inadequate.