Assertiveness, Being and the empathic connection

happehrts said:
Sorry for the blue type. I thought I had figured out how to copy and paste a quote, and put it in a blue box. I just went to look at it, and saw the blue type, yet no blue box :shock:

Hi happerhrts,

Have a look at that thread if you want to learn how to quote.
 
Ana said:
As I see it “defending” truth in others face when others are unable, or not ready to see or listen, we are just showing self importance and internal considering.
Truth need no defense,
just eyes to see and ears to hear, so better give an example of self knowledge and self awareness by being able to stop ourselves, OSIT.

Thank Ana, I believe you are right. I was thinking about what you had posted over the weekend, and applying it to my situation, and I DO get offended and feel the need to correct others or push back. I was reminded of the quote STS does not become an STO candidate by determining the needs of another. If you fight fire with fire, everyone goes up in flames. Similar to what you wrote here.
Ana said:
Yes, there is people unable not only to see yourself but also to grasp a pinch of reality and common sense. Better to minimize the contact with them,
unless you want to submit yourself to a real test, because they can bring out the very hidden “demons” within us .. a true test of fire.

Buddy said:
I agree.
Assertiveness, to me, can be mistakenly viewed as something else, from different points of view, because it seems kind of neutral when compared to passive-agressive forms.

I think a person can get a good feel of an assertive response from Heimdallr
here.

Thanks for the link Buddy. I often ask a lot of questions, like Heimdallr posted, but never thought that THAT was assertiveness, I was always thought it was more akin to just ... being curious, or if someone makes a closed ended statement, getting to the root of it, better understanding.
 
DanielS said:
Thanks for the link Buddy. I often ask a lot of questions, like Heimdallr posted, but never thought that THAT was assertiveness, I was always thought it was more akin to just ... being curious, or if someone makes a closed ended statement, getting to the root of it, better understanding.

Well, if you're being curious, asking questions and no one feels a need to stop you, and you don't stop yourself until YOU decide to, that's being assertive, in my book. :)

To me, it's "a DOing" when an opportunity presents itself. As to what form the DOing takes, those are all just examples of assertiveness, I believe.
 
I see assertiveness as the true comunication between beings.
A comunication in wich two beings are able to express thyself clearly and directly, no manipulation, no fear, no defense mechanisms and on the contrary higher empathy.

The problem with the word assertiveness OSIT is that it has been "perverted" and coopted to serve purposes of EGO.
An example are those great, agile and easy ways to negotiate through "assertiveness"; you just learn some simple sentences, body postures etc by reading those little books "Learn how to be a god negotiator" and there you are the miracle.

Assertiveness on the contrary manifests OSIT as result of self work, as more inner freedom has the person more is able to give expression to the real self reducing progressively the use of defense mechanisms-programs.

So may we say assertiveness means: "expression of the real self"
To be in real contact with our emotions and perceptions giving them a clear channel to flow, from the inside to the outside.
 
Great thread.
Interesting how we are taught by narcissists to not be assertive, thinking it is aggressive. Meanwhile they are aggressive but pretend like they are fair and assertive.

I have this issue at work, where the senior workers act like you need to be there for 10-20 years to have a say on issues. I used to stay quiet, but I felt this passive aggressiveness bubble up when working with specific senior guys because of their attitudes towards others. I know I should practice external consideration, but to what extent? Does that mean allowing them to dominate everything, even if it means it compromises the rest of us?

What works for me now is to not compete with them, but to suggest ideas. In that case, I am not challenging their "control" of the shop.
 
Divide By Zero said:
Meanwhile they are aggressive but pretend like they are fair and assertive.

I thought it will be helpful to review the modes of aggression from "In Sheep's Clothing" by George Simon:

There are two basic types of aggression: overt-aggression and covert-
aggression. When you're determined to have something and you're open, direct
and obvious in your manner of fighting, your behavior is best labeled
overtly aggressive. When you're out to "win," dominate or control, but are
subtle, underhanded or deceptive enough to hide your true intentions, your
behavior is most appropriately labeled covertly aggressive. Now, avoiding
any overt display of aggression while simultaneously intimidating others
into giving you what you want is a powerfully manipulative maneuver. That's
why covert-aggression is most often the vehicle for interpersonal
manipulation.

The Process of Victimization

For a long time, I wondered why manipulation victims have a hard time seeing
what really goes on in manipulative interactions. At first, I was tempted to
fault them. But I've learned that they get hoodwinked for some very good
reasons:

1. A manipulator's aggression is not obvious. Our gut may tell us that
they're fighting for something, struggling to overcome us, gain power, or
have their way, and we find ourselves unconsciously on the defensive. But
because we can't point to clear, objective evidence they're aggressing
against us, we can't readily validate our feelings.

2. The tactics manipulators use can make it seem like they're hurting,
caring, defending, ..., almost anything but fighting. These tactics are hard
to recognize as merely clever ploys. They always make just enough sense to
make a person doubt their gut hunch that they're being taken advantage of or
abused. Besides, the tactics not only make it hard for you to consciously
and objectively tell that a manipulator is fighting, but they also
simultaneously keep you or consciously on the defensive. These features make
them highly effective psychological weapons to which anyone can be
vulnerable. It's hard to think clearly when someone has you emotionally on
the run.

3. All of us have weaknesses and insecurities that a clever manipulator
might exploit. Sometimes, we're aware of these weaknesses and how someone
might use them to take advantage of us. For example, I hear parents say
things like: "Yeah, I know I have a big guilt button." - But at the time
their manipulative child is busily pushing that button, they can easily
forget what's really going on. Besides, sometimes we're unaware of our
biggest vulnerabilities. Manipulators often know us better than we know
ourselves. They know what buttons to push, when and how hard. Our lack of
self-knowledge sets us up to be exploited.

4. What our gut tells us a manipulator is like, challenges everything
we've been taught to believe about human nature. We've been inundated with a
psychology that has us seeing everybody, at least to some degree, as afraid,
insecure or "hung-up." So, while our gut tells us we're dealing with a
ruthless conniver, our head tells us they must be really frightened or
wounded "underneath." What's more, most of us generally hate to think of
ourselves as callous and insensitive people. We hesitate to make harsh or
seemingly negative judgments about others. We want to give them the benefit
of the doubt and assume they don't really harbor the malevolent intentions
we suspect. We're more apt to doubt and blame ourselves for daring to
believe what our gut tells us about our manipulator's character. [...]

While, from a certain perspective we might say someone engaging in these
behaviors is defending their ego from any sense of shame or guilt, it's
important to realize that at the time the aggressor is exhibiting these
behaviors, he is not primarily defending (i.e. attempting to prevent some
internally painful event from occurring), but rather fighting to maintain
position, gain power and to remove any obstacles (both internal and
external) in the way of getting what he wants.

Seeing the aggressor as on the defensive in any sense is a set-up for
victimization.

Recognizing that they're primarily on the offensive, mentally prepares a
person for the decisive action they need to take in order to avoid being run
over.

Therefore, I think it's best to conceptualize many of the mental behaviors
(no matter how "automatic" or "unconscious" they may appear) we often think
of as defense mechanisms, as offensive power tactics, because aggressive
personalities employ them primarily to manipulate, control and achieve
dominance over others.

Rather than trying to prevent something emotionally painful or dreadful from
happening, anyone using these tactics is primarily trying to ensure that
something they want to happen does indeed happen. [...]

Denial - This is when the aggressor refuses to admit that they've done
something harmful or hurtful when they clearly have. It's a way they lie (to
themselves as well as to others) about their aggressive intentions. This
"Who... Me?" tactic is a way of "playing innocent," and invites the victim
to feel unjustified in confronting the aggressor about the inappropriateness
of a behavior. It's also the way the aggressor gives him/herself permission
to keep right on doing what they want to do. This denial is not the same
kind of denial that a person who has just lost a loved one and can't quite
bear to accept the pain and reality of the loss engages in. That type of
denial really is mostly a "defense" against unbearable hurt and anxiety.
Rather, this type of denial is not primarily a "defense" but a maneuver the
aggressor uses to get others to back off, back down or maybe even feel
guilty themselves for insinuating he's doing something wrong. [...]

Selective Inattention - This tactic is similar to and sometimes mistaken for
denial It's when the aggressor "plays dumb," or acts oblivious. When
engaging in this tactic, the aggressor actively ignores the warnings, pleas
or wishes of others, and in general, refuses to pay attention to everything
and anything that might distract them from pursuing their own agenda. Often,
the aggressor knows full well what you want from him when he starts to
exhibit this "I don't want to hear it!" behavior. By using this tactic, the
aggressor actively resists submitting himself to the tasks of paying
attention...

Rationalization - A rationalization is the excuse an aggressor tries to
offer for engaging in an inappropriate or harmful behavior. It can be an
effective tactic, especially when the explanation or justification the
aggressor offers makes just enough sense that any reasonably conscientious
person is likely to fall for it. It's a powerful tactic because it not only
serves to remove any internal resistance the aggressor might have about
doing what he wants to do (quieting any qualms of conscience he might have)
but also to keep others off his back. If the aggressor can convince you he's
justified in whatever he's doing, then he's freer to pursue his goals
without interference. [...]

Diversion - A moving target is hard to hit. When we try to pin a manipulator
down or try to keep a discussion focused on a single issue or behavior we
don't like, he's expert at knowing how to change the subject, dodge the
issue or in some way throw us a curve. Manipulators use distraction and
diversion techniques to keep the focus off their behavior, move us off-
track, and keep themselves free to promote their self-serving hidden
agendas. [...]

Lying - It's often hard to tell when a person is lying at the time he's
doing it. Fortunately, there are times when the truth will out because
circumstances don't bear out somebody's story. But there are also times when
you don't know you've been deceived until it's too late. One way to minimize
the chances that someone will put one over on you is to remember that
because aggressive personalities of all types will generally stop at nothing
to get what they want, you can expect them to lie and cheat.

Another thing to remember is that manipulators - covert-aggressive
personalities that they are - are prone to lie in subtle, covert ways.
Courts are well aware of the many ways that people lie, as they require that
court oaths charge that testifiers tell "the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth." Manipulators often lie by withholding a significant
amount of the truth from you or by distorting the truth. They are adept at
being vague when you ask them direct questions. This is an especially slick
way of lying' omission. Keep this in mind when dealing with a suspected wolf
in sheep's clothing. [...]

Covert Intimidation - Aggressors frequently threaten their victims to keep
them anxious, apprehensive and in a one-down position. Covert-aggressives
intimidate their victims by making veiled (subtle, indirect or implied)
threats. Guilt-tripping and shaming are two of the covert-aggressive's
favourite weapons. Both are special intimidation tactics.

Guilt-tripping - One thing that aggressive personalities know well is that
other types of persons have very different consciences than they do.
Manipulators are often skilled at using what they know to be the greater
conscientiousness of their victims as a means of keeping them in a self-
doubting, anxious, and submissive position. The more conscientious the
potential victim, the more effective guilt is as a weapon.

Aggressive personalities of all types use guilt-tripping so frequently and
effectively as a manipulative tactic, that I believe it illustrates how
fundamentally different in character they are compared to other (especially
neurotic) personalities. All a manipulator has to do is suggest to the
conscientious person that they don't care enough, are too selfish, etc., and
that person immediately starts to feel bad. On the contrary, a conscientious
person might try until they're blue in the face to get a manipulator (or any
other aggressive personality) to feel badly about a hurtful behavior,
acknowledge responsibility, or admit wrongdoing, to absolutely no avail.

Shaming - This is the technique of using subtle sarcasm and put-downs as a
means of increasing fear and self-doubt in others. Covert-aggressives use
this tactic to make others feel inadequate or unworthy, and therefore, defer
to them. It's an effective way to foster a continued sense of personal
inadequacy in the weaker party, thereby allowing an aggressor to maintain a
position of dominance. [...]

Playing the Victim Role - This tactic involves portraying oneself as an
innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain
sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another. One thing
that covert-aggressive personalities count on is the fact that less
calloused and less hostile personalities usually can't stand to see anyone
suffering. Therefore, the tactic is simple. Convince your victim you're
suffering in some way, and they'll try to relieve your distress. [...]

Vilifying the Victim - This tactic is frequently used in conjunction with
the tactic of playing the victim role. The aggressor uses this tactic to
make it appear he is only responding (i.e. defending himself against)
aggression on the part of the victim. It enables the aggressor to better put
the victim on the defensive. [...]

Playing the Servant Role - Covert-aggressives use this tactic to cloak their
self-serving agendas in the guise of service to a more noble cause. It's a
common tactic but difficult to recognize. By pretending to be working hard
on someone else's behalf, covert-aggressives conceal their own ambition,
desire for power, and quest for a position of dominance over others. [...]

A recent scandal involving a tele-evangelist resulted in his church's
governance body censuring him for one year. But he told his congregation he
couldn't stop his ministry because he had to be faithful to the Lord's will
(God supposedly talked to him and told him not to quit). This minister was
clearly being defiant of his church's established authority. Yet, he
presented himself as a person being humbly submissive to the "highest"
authority. One hallmark characteristic of covert-aggressive personalities is
loudly professing subservience while fighting for dominance.

Seduction - Covert-aggressive personalities are adept at charming, praising,
flattering or overtly supporting others in order to get them to lower their
defenses and surrender their trust and loyalty. Covert-aggressives are also
particularly aware that people who are to some extent emotionally needy and
dependent (and that includes most people who aren't character-disordered)
want approval, reassurance, and a sense of being valued and needed more than
anything. Appearing to be attentive to these needs can be a manipulator's
ticket to incredible power over others. [...]

Projecting the blame (blaming others) - Aggressive personalities are always
looking for a way to shift the blame for their aggressive behavior. Covert-
aggressives are not only skilled at finding scapegoats, they're expert at
doing so in subtle, hard to detect ways.

Minimization - This tactic is a unique kind of denial coupled with
rationalization. When using this maneuver, the aggressor is attempting to
assert that his abusive behavior isn't really as harmful or irresponsible as
someone else may be claiming. It's the aggressor's attempt to make a
molehill out of a mountain.

I've presented the principal tactics that covert-aggressives use to
manipulate and control others. They are not always easy to recognize.
Although all aggressive personalities tend to use these tactics, covert-
aggressives generally use them slickly, subtly and adeptly. Anyone dealing
with a covertly aggressive person will need to heighten gut-level
sensitivity to the use of these tactics if they're to avoid being taken in
by them.
 
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