Awakening to The Calling

Andrew said:
...becoming the best HUman-Being you're capable of becoming is such a difficult and challenging path....
Click to expand...
Yes, but to get there, you must first be able to clearly see the kind if human-being you are right now -- hence the importance of self-examination and self-observation in the Work. Otherwise, the "changes" you make in yourself can end up being no more than cosmetic.

Andrew said:
Any suggestions or ideas on how to start ?
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Well, I have read over your posts several times now, and am still not clear on what exactly it is you wish to accomplish. Could you please summarize that for me in one concise paragraph ?
 
What you quoted was in question on how to start building small bouts of Courage.

What I wish to accomplish overall has changed a bit since this discussion began; it's given me more depth and insight into my own views about my-self that I previously did not have or had overlooked.

What I wish to accomplish now is to further my understanding of self and overcome personal obstacles of self-doubt, and confidence.
 
Andrew said:
What you quoted was in question on how to start building small bouts of Courage.
Click to expand...
You're quite right. (Uh duh. I should have re-read my OWN posts!)

Okay. One thing I get from your posts is an ardent desire to COMMUNICATE with others, both as a means of learning more and of sharing with others what you know. But at the same time you feel you have poor communication skills and are generally alienated from others, and very self-conscious around them. This in itself would explain the sense of paralysis you feel -- logically speaking there is a very real "block" between your goal and your ability to carry it out. (As T.S. Eliott said, "Between the conception and the act, falls the shadow.")

I can only speak from my own experience. My suggestion would be to forget about websites, blogs, etc. and just get down to basics, right where you live. You need to learn how to communicate with others on a very basic level, and to practice what Gurdjieff called External Consideration.

I can relate to where you are at right now. When I was not much older than you I obtained a "dream of a lifetime" entry-level position at a major publishing house. My communication skills were not much better than yours, I felt very awkward and self-conscious at editorial meetings, I had the ideas but not the ability to express and "sell" them. I was equally out of my element at the various "social/business" functions I had to attend. I had the ambition to get ahead in the business, but not the ability to do the necessary "networking". Anyways, long story short -- I made a very conscious decision to stretch myself and learn the skills I was so badly lacking. I came to realize how self-indulgent and self-absorbed my "self-consciousness" was, how it was rooted in a belief that everyone was watching every move I made, that I was the centre of attention. My new mantra became "Nobody cares". I switched my focus away from MYSELF and onto OTHERS. I gradually learned that you could keep people talking about themselves forever by simply asking them the right kind of questions. I also came to realize that I was just one of many at that editorial table shooting out ideas and brainstorming; that it didn't matter if I got shot down 20 times before one of my ideas got noticed, 'cause you're only as good as your last good idea.

So how does this relate to you? Well, I suggest you start going out of your way to COMMUNICATE with every single person you deal with on a daily basis -- not just your friends, but your neighbours, the cashier at the supermarket, the person beside you on the bus, the salesperson at the department store, etc. Use these opportunities as exercises in letting go of your own sense of self-consciousness and self-importance, and learn how to focus 100% on another human being, without interference from your own personal agenda. No matter who they are, learn to relate to them on some level, be genuinely interested in them as human beings; or as "Ra" would say "See the Creator" in them, see them as not much different from you. Instead of focussing on your own agenda (to teach others what you think they should know), focus on becoming a person who can communicate on some level with almost every human being you meet. In the process of this you will also learn External Consideration.

Not only will these exercises develop your ability to communicate with others, it will also teach you to really LISTEN to others; and to observe what they say and do -- observation skills that can then be applied to YOURSELF. You will learn to listen less to what people SAY and more to what they TALK ABOUT -- clues to their own internal "programs".

Once you have developed these skills on a very small and "local" level, then you can start to apply them in a larger sense. Then, when the opportunity arises to "share" what you know, in response to a genuine request, you will have the ability to genuinely communicate -- not your own personal agenda of what you have predetermined they need to know -- but what that person truly needs to hear at that moment in time, based on what you have observed about them and where they are in their personal development.

I hope some of this makes sense to you, and that it helps in some small way.
 
PepperFritz said:
Okay. One thing I get from your posts is an ardent desire to COMMUNICATE with others, both as a means of learning more and of sharing with others what you know. But at the same time you feel you have poor communication skills and are generally alienated from others, and very self-conscious around them.
This in itself would explain the sense of paralysis you feel -- logically speaking there is a very real "block" between your goal and your ability to carry it out. (As T.S. Eliott said, "Between the conception and the act, falls the shadow.")
I can only speak from my own experience. My suggestion would be to forget about websites, blogs, etc. and just get down to basics, right where you live. You need to learn how to communicate with others on a very basic level, and to practice what Gurdjieff called External Consideration.

I can relate to where you are at right now. When I was not much older than you I obtained a "dream of a lifetime" entry-level position at a major publishing house. My communication skills were not much better than yours, I felt very awkward and self-conscious at editorial meetings, I had the ideas but not the ability to express and "sell" them. I was equally out of my element at the various "social/business" functions I had to attend. I had the ambition to get ahead in the business, but not the ability to do the necessary "networking". Anyways, long story short -- I made a very conscious decision to stretch myself and learn the skills I was so badly lacking. I came to realize how self-indulgent and self-absorbed my "self-consciousness" was, how it was rooted in a belief that everyone was watching every move I made, that I was the centre of attention. My new mantra became "Nobody cares". I switched my focus away from MYSELF and onto OTHERS. I gradually learned that you could keep people talking about themselves forever by simply asking them the right kind of questions. I also came to realize that I was just one of many at that editorial table shooting out ideas and brainstorming; that it didn't matter if I got shot down 20 times before one of my ideas got noticed, 'cause you're only as good as your last good idea.

So how does this relate to you? Well, I suggest you start going out of your way to COMMUNICATE with every single person you deal with on a daily basis -- not just your friends, but your neighbours, the cashier at the supermarket, the person beside you on the bus, the salesperson at the department store, etc. Use these opportunities as exercises in letting go of your own sense of self-consciousness and self-importance, and learn how to focus 100% on another human being, without interference from your own personal agenda. No matter who they are, learn to relate to them on some level, be genuinely interested in them as human beings; or as "Ra" would say "See the Creator" in them, see them as not much different from you. Instead of focussing on your own agenda (to teach others what you think they should know), focus on becoming a person who can communicate on some level with almost every human being you meet. In the process of this you will also learn External Consideration.

Not only will these exercises develop your ability to communicate with others, it will also teach you to really LISTEN to others; and to observe what they say and do -- observation skills that can then be applied to YOURSELF. You will learn to listen less to what people SAY and more to what they TALK ABOUT -- clues to their own internal "programs".

Once you have developed these skills on a very small and "local" level, then you can start to apply them in a larger sense. Then, when the opportunity arises to "share" what you know, in response to a genuine request, you will have the ability to genuinely communicate -- not your own personal agenda of what you have predetermined they need to know -- but what that person truly needs to hear at that moment in time, based on what you have observed about them and where they are in their personal development.

I hope some of this makes sense to you, and that it helps in some small way.
Click to expand...
YES! You absolutely hit everything that I have been trying to say to others...and to understand myself for SO LONG NOW!

I can't even explain to you how grateful I am to you for your insight into this dire problem that has been plaguing me for so long...your words even gave me a little sniffle :)

I apologize for making this sound all about me as it's apparent you have gone through similar if not the same dilemma I currently am facing...I'm just overwhelmed by the degree of your understanding.

I will reply more in a few days to this, but I just wanted to let you know you have helped me see something that I haven't been able to see and have done a great thing for me.

I hope the best for you my friend in all your future travels through the walks of life!

Thanks again,

And may the force be with you ;)
 
Hello,
I’d like to update on a personal issue I expounded on a few months ago. I apologize for it being personal, but it’s something I’d truly like to get out of my system and maybe even get some feedback on...
Lately I’ve been trying to make a better attempt at communicating with other people, however when I do communicate with others I’m still met with an unidentifiable problem that causes an uneasiness when I communicate with others on a personal level.
I've come to realize that when I communicate with other people, I do just fine when the topic of conversation is about them, or any other topic, it's only when the mode of conversation moves onto me that I begin to feel the effects of nervousness, irritation and an anxious desire to end communication with that person. What I think the problem may be, and that which I'm not sure exactly how to deal with is, when people begin to ask personal questions about me. And in most cases, if not all they always begin with questions like:

"So, are you in School?"
my response is always...
"no" which is then met with...
"oh...so your working then, right? in which my response is...
"no, I'm not currently working" then it moves onto...
"oh...so what are you DOING then?"

And it's always asked in such a way, that makes me feel as if I'm being belittled because I'm not going to "School" or "working". I can understand that this is a common mode of relation for people when first getting to know one another, but I don't have that relation in either case, and beyond that my personal life revolves mainly around the mysterious and esoteric etc. Topics I know are not taken easily by most, and I've even heard through the grapevine that "I'm single minded". Which has often pushed others away from me. What I’m struggling with is how to relate with other individuals. Simply put, I just don’t know what to say to people, and I can kinda tell when people are aware of my loss of words, which makes the situation even more uncomfortable. Even now as I write this, I’m at a loss of words as to exactly what I’m asking here, I’m just trying to express a problem that has really been pushing me to the edge because I can’t figure it out and is really taking a toll on my personal/social life.

I’ve been trying to implement External Consideration when I do speak with people, but it only works up until they start asking questions about me, unless I’m missing something here? Am I to self-conscious, do I need to maybe get out more, get a hobby? I have taken up Skateboarding again, a sport I truly enjoy and when I skate with other kids everything's cool. I think what I feel like I’m missing inside, and having a hard time finding is a true, genuine personal relation with another individual. It’s been so long since I’ve had a real “friend” and not an acquaintance which is essentially the only real relation I have with others and in many ways its very depressing. Again, I'm not sure as to exactly what I’m asking here, maybe I’ve already asked it but can’t see it. I just feel very alone because of my personal endeavors into esoteric development that I feel cut off from all of Humanity, a connection I wish to have again and end this alienation that I can’t seem to get out of. I just don’t want my personal endeavors to ruin relations with others, which is essentially what I feel it has done.
 
Andrew said:
"So, are you in School?"
my response is always...
"no" which is then met with...
"oh...so your working then, right? in which my response is...
"no, I'm not currently working" then it moves onto...
"oh...so what are you DOING then?"
Click to expand...

Hi Andrew,

I think those are very good questions. What do you think you are doing? Full time Truth seeker? Remember that the Work cannot begin at a level lower than that of an ordinary person. If you are not in school and not working, you cannot even take care of yourself. How can you be of service to others? What good is the mysterious and esoteric then?

I don't know about your personal situation. But from what I read in this thread, I would suggest that you get the basic done first. Get a job or a study. Be normal. Only after that should you think of seeking anything else. What you are doing now is just dreaming.
 
Your absolutely right, I've taken a very passive approach to both of your suggestions and have let it pretty much dominate my thinking process and future actions. My rationale has been " if the world's on the brink of destruction " why bother? Aren't there more important things to be concerned with? Yet from "The Work" perspective I'm passive as well. At time's I question the authenticity of it and everything else, yet in Truth it's me trying to go to sleep.I wish I knew why this is so difficult for me, as it seems such a relatively pointless problem that I just might be blowing way out of proportion; perhaps due to fear?

Thanks for your reply
 
hi Andrew,

I think it is worth bearing in mind that studying the esoteric is about exploring the full depth of meaning and lessons that are available to us in this reality. And 'normal' life is the provider of the material for those lessons, at least the 'foundation course'. To disregard normal life as unimportant seems to be missing out on 'first grade', I think. If that is actually what you meant.

We are here because for whatever reason this is where our lesson profile 'fits', and how we deal with the everyday reality presented to us, is kind of indicative of 'where we are'. So if you feel like "why bother?", and that your approach to things is permeated by passivity, then it looks to me like there's a personal lesson in there somewhere. Perhaps you'll end up in some kind of difficult situation where the 'why bother' attitude is brought sharply into focus? ;)

As for your feelings of alienation, this is extremely common. Our society seems to be set up in such a way as to accentuate those feelings for anyone who does not want to 'follow the herd'. The 'General Law' actively moves against anyone wanting to wake up, and so it is never easy.

The 'communication paralysis' is probably something slightly different (but also very common). I would hazard a guess that it is caused by what Gurdjieff calls inner considering or self importance. It is all about worrying how others perceive you - a pattern that can be very strongly imprinted by all kinds of narcissistic programming from childhood, (something pretty much everyone has to deal with one way or another). I would really recommend having a look at some of the psychology books that are listed on the threads on narcissism.
 
Andrew:

Let's get real. Let's get "wake up and smell the coffee" real: You're not going to school or working (i.e. you're sponging off your parents), and your life consists of "skateboarding" and reading about "the mysterious and esoteric". And you wonder why you feel "alienated" from other people, and have a sense of something "missing" in your life. Well, to be blunt, you don't HAVE a "life" -- that's what's "missing". When you claim to be pursuing "esoteric development", you are deluding yourself. Big time. You are sound asleep, dreaming that you are awake.

Right now you are an immature child who, for some reason, is either unable or unwilling to grow up and take on the responsibilities of an adult, and that presents a serious impediment to the Work:

Robin Skynner said:
Gurdjieff described his system [the Work] as a teaching belonging to the "Fourth Way".... He emphasized that it was appropriate only for those who have already reached a certain level of maturity and responsibility. He describes this level as that of the Russian obyvatel, a word usually translated as "good householder". By this he appears to have meant someone who is equal to life, is able to cope with ordinary responsibilities and duties, is reasonable shrewd and "street-wise" when dealing with the world, and can support and help others, rather than being a burden to them. At the same time he makes it clear that this could be an ordinary person, with ordinary faults and limitations.... Two people who worked closely with him once told me how Gurdjieff would handle someone who appeared unready to join his groups because of psychological immaturity. He would send them to a psychiatrist in whom he had confidence, who would send them back to him when psychotherapy had brought them to a more adequate level.... The more effective a system is in bringing about change and growth, the more effective it will be, when misused, for avoiding truth about oneself and perpetuating the existing attitudes and personality structure. This is why the Gurdjieff system, which offers the most powerful tools towards spiritual development and psychological change, seems also to be, when misunderstood, an extraordinarily effective method of avoiding the profound changes it could otherwise make possible.... (from Gurdjieff and Modern Psychology by Robin Skynner)
Click to expand...

Have you considered undertaking psychotherapy as a means of getting to the root of your inability/unwillingness to make the transition to adulthood? I think it would be a good first step to "waking up" to what is required in order to undertake the Work.
 
[quote author=Nomad]
hi Andrew,

I think it is worth bearing in mind that studying the esoteric is about exploring the full depth of meaning and lessons that are available to us in this reality. And 'normal' life is the provider of the material for those lessons, at least the 'foundation course'. To disregard normal life as unimportant seems to be missing out on 'first grade', I think. If that is actually what you meant.[/quote]

This is quite true, and by my own behavior it's becoming more and more apparent (I don't know how it wasn't before) that this escapist, "If I try and act like I know "truth" it'll be enough to get me through lessons, yet ironically enough however I'm coming to realize these "lessons" I should be learning are as far away from me right now as is a decent level of Maturity to undertake them. In that respect I have a, what I feel is a very basic question, something I feel I might have been missing all along, which again is probably due to passivity, is how does one go about recognizing "lessons"? When the C's say "all are lessons" I can understand that on a very primitive level, yet the degree I feel its importance is and how to "understand" how daily experiences are the "lessons" to be learning is something that I'm greatly missing. Put simpler, how does one identify lessons on a daily basis through all of life's daily experiences? Right now I can see a very important lesson in this post, because its been made apparent, but what about more subtle experiences? Off the top of my head, I don't exactly have what I would call a good example, but maybe something like going to the store to get food, taking part in activities with other people, etc. Bad examples I know, just having a hard time explaining what I mean.

[quote author=Nomad]
We are here because for whatever reason this is where our lesson profile 'fits', and how we deal with the everyday reality presented to us, is kind of indicative of 'where we are'. So if you feel like "why bother?", and that your approach to things is permeated by passivity, then it looks to me like there's a personal lesson in there somewhere. Perhaps you'll end up in some kind of difficult situation where the 'why bother' attitude is brought sharply into focus? ;)[/quote]

Often times I feel as if I act this way to somehow hurt myself which forces me to learn the hard way. I've had a slight indication that some difficult situation may be the only remedy, but I'd really rather not go down that route as it's happened many times before, but I guess I haven't exactly learned then if I'm repeating the same process right?

[quote author=Nomad]
As for your feelings of alienation, this is extremely common. Our society seems to be set up in such a way as to accentuate those feelings for anyone who does not want to 'follow the herd'. The 'General Law' actively moves against anyone wanting to wake up, and so it is never easy.[/quote]

Very true, but I need to figure out someway to "cope" or else I'm no good to anyone.

[quote author=Nomad]
The 'communication paralysis' is probably something slightly different (but also very common). I would hazard a guess that it is caused by what Gurdjieff calls inner considering or self importance. It is all about worrying how others perceive you - a pattern that can be very strongly imprinted by all kinds of narcissistic programming from childhood, (something pretty much everyone has to deal with one way or another). I would really recommend having a look at some of the psychology books that are listed on the threads on narcissism.[/quote]

I agree with you very much on this point. I've been observing myself for awhile now and often times catch myself in subjective fantasies where people are looking at me as if I were special and so forth. But what I'm finding to be most interesting is when I catch myself having these delusional fantasies there is apart of me that does not want to feel that way because somewhere I know it simply is not true. The difficulty however, is breaking this pattern which the cause for it is probably deeper down which is eluding me or I'm simply not willing to view it for whatever reason. I suppose more self-observation is necessary and an actual willingness to accept the fact that I may not be as "great" as I have presumed?

Again I'd like to apologize for posting this personal drama that I'm having, as I know this is not the place for it, but I don't know where else to go to get some straight forward advice, so I greatly appreciate the feedback.
 
[quote author=PepperFritz]
Let's get real. Let's get "wake up and smell the coffee" real: You're not going to school or working (i.e. you're sponging off your parents), and your life consists of "skateboarding" and reading about "the mysterious and esoteric". And you wonder why you feel "alienated" from other people, and have a sense of something "missing" in your life. Well, to be blunt, you don't HAVE a "life" -- that's what's "missing". When you claim to be pursuing "esoteric development", you are deluding yourself. Big time. You are sound asleep, dreaming that you are awake.[/quote]

I guess dreaming just doesn't cut the bill huh? Haven't much to say, other than your more than right, and probably more so on levels that I'd rather not accept yet need to desperately. I guess somehow I've created this dream world where I don't have to do any of the things most people have to do, don't have to undertake the responsibilities most people do because I'm "special" perhaps even to "spiritual" to need to....HAHA..who am I kidding???? Let alone what do I "know" which apparently, is not much...

I was once told by a friend of mine that later on in life I was going to have to make a "choice"....and up until now I think I've totally missed what they were trying to tell me by the direction my life was heading into, something they were aware of, and I was not. I.E. what I'm experiencing now. This straightforward feedback on my situation has given me a lot of light into the truth of my current experienced reality, and may just be the step before I have to experience some difficult event to forcefully pull my head out of the clouds. The easy way or the hard way. Truth be told accepting this is not easy, but it's got to be done in one way or another.

[quote author=PepperFritz]
Right now you are an immature child who, for some reason, is either unable or unwilling to grow up and take on the responsibilities of an adult, and that presents a serious impediment to the Work:[/quote]
Couldn't agree more...what's funny is I know my behavior is very childish and immature, yet cling onto it for some reason even when other parts of me are desperately fighting to let it go. I can "feel" it in my solar plexus when experiences that make this apparent present themselves, yet always, always act against them and return to the comfortable - because really that's what I have been given - comfort in an illusory, delusional, subjective self-created reality. It's change that I struggle against, and change that I make my worst enemy.
[quote author=PepperFritz]
Robin Skynner said:
Gurdjieff described his system [the Work] as a teaching belonging to the "Fourth Way".... He emphasized that it was appropriate only for those who have already reached a certain level of maturity and responsibility. He describes this level as that of the Russian obyvatel, a word usually translated as "good householder". By this he appears to have meant someone who is equal to life, is able to cope with ordinary responsibilities and duties, is reasonable shrewd and "street-wise" when dealing with the world, and can support and help others, rather than being a burden to them. At the same time he makes it clear that this could be an ordinary person, with ordinary faults and limitations.... Two people who worked closely with him once told me how Gurdjieff would handle someone who appeared unready to join his groups because of psychological immaturity. He would send them to a psychiatrist in whom he had confidence, who would send them back to him when psychotherapy had brought them to a more adequate level.... The more effective a system is in bringing about change and growth, the more effective it will be, when misused, for avoiding truth about oneself and perpetuating the existing attitudes and personality structure. This is why the Gurdjieff system, which offers the most powerful tools towards spiritual development and psychological change, seems also to be, when misunderstood, an extraordinarily effective method of avoiding the profound changes it could otherwise make possible.... (from Gurdjieff and Modern Psychology by Robin Skynner)
Click to expand...
[/quote]

This passage was very enlightening. It astonishes me how much Gurjieff knew. Very relevant. Thank you.

[quote author=PepperFritz]
Have you considered undertaking psychotherapy as a means of getting to the root of your inability/unwillingness to make the transition to adulthood? I think it would be a good first step to "waking up" to what is required in order to undertake the Work.[/quote]

Not until now. And even now as I write this I feel this pull away from that idea, because I feel embarrassed that this situation altogether is very pathetic. And right now am trying to figure out a way to avoid such a thing that just might be a necessity if I can't/don't get my sh*t together.

Something that just came to light..."avoidance"....something I do all to often and try to compensate by rationalizing that I'll "find away" to get around it. Again, there is this pull and struggle that I'm feeling internally against "change" but I know and want that change to happen because I'm not at all satisfied in any way with my current situation. Avoidance was brought up before to me by another member as a potential internal program, question is is how does one go about finding the root cause of an "avoidance" program? Again as you suggested Psychotherapy might be helpful and beneficial if I can't/don't overcome this weakness.

Thanks PepperFritz
 
Andrew said:
In that respect I have a, what I feel is a very basic question, something I feel I might have been missing all along, which again is probably due to passivity, is how does one go about recognizing "lessons"?
Click to expand...

I think much of it is in discovering conflict. In the beginning our internal conflicts are covered with illusory thoughts of ourselves and what we are doing. Gurdjieff explained this in terms of buffers. If we can remove these, we might be able to work with the actual conflicts and contradictions within. Discovering the root of how the buffer was created in the first place can go hand in hand with working to resolving a conflict; Pepperfritz suggestion to utilize psychotherapy to start the work is good in this regard. However, it can be easy to get hung up on forever 'exploring' and never actually do anything to resolve issues; so action is needed. While the first, second or third attempt of doing something may not 'resolve' everything, they can provide material for further discovery and allow new attempts to be more effective.

Andrew said:
I suppose more self-observation is necessary and an actual willingness to accept the fact that I may not be as "great" as I have presumed?
Click to expand...

Maybe. But you probably wont really be able to see this until you take responsibility for yourself.
 
Andrew said:
Truth be told accepting this is not easy, but it's got to be done in one way or another.
Click to expand...

It does if you wish to move forward in life -- spiritually, psychologically, economically, materially, intellectually, relationship-wise, health-wise (both mental and physical), education-wise, in every sense, you name it.

I'm very serious when I say this: You are in a very dangerous position right now, Andrew, and you really need to take control of your life as soon as possible. The more you delay, put off, avoid, etc, the harder and harder it will be to awake from the dream you are in. Such behaviour can and has developed into much more serious mental-health issues, from which many people never recover. Your life is too important to throw away. You have been born at this time for a very specific purpose, to experience the Wave. If you continue as you are, you will simply sleep through it.

If for some reason you are not able to undertake formal psychoanalytical therapy, then at the very least you should start having very hard, direct, and honest discussions with yourself. You wonder what the root of your problem is. Most likely it is fear, and it is up to you to discover what it is that you're afraid of. Make a list of all of the things that you fear, then resolve to act in the face of those fears. Imagine the very worst thing that could happen if you were to act in a certain direction, then see yourself being able to cope with that situation. Start doing the small things that you are afraid of, then work your way up to bigger things. But for goodness sake, ACT. Like muscles that atrophy and waste away when they are not used, your WILL must also be USED and EXERCISED on a daily basis; otherwise it too will wither away until it can no longer function.

Take a vacation from the "mysterious and esoteric" for a while and resolve to become better acquainted with, knowledgeable of, and skilled at the everyday practical aspects of being a third-density human. Even if your heart is not in it initially, get out there and practice until it becomes natural. As C.S. Lewis said, "we must wear masks until we have faces". Look at it as an adventure, because that's what life is -- an adventure. Not something to be avoided and lived in a pale, ghostly fashion.

It will not be easy. But it will not be dull. It will be fully of surprises and lessons and disappointments and mistakes and unexpected joys. It is what you are here for.
 
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