Being Ignored

Hi Megan,

I will thank you for providing me the opportunity to see a major point. As I was angry and writing my rant, I was able to reflect on the past. As I was "reliving" and "feeling" the past, there was a crucial element that came to my attention. That is TIME. I was seeing my impatience at this situation. I also see the improvements achieved. For acceptance to gel with my character, it takes time to grow. This is what I see. Whatever you think, you do, and is not an issue with me. I have had a major revelation and I thank you for providing me the shock allowing me to see what I have not seen in years.
 
Al Today said:
I hate being ignored.
[..]
I recognize that my negative emotions at being ignored is childish. Yet, I get angry when "I" am ignored. Well not angry all the time. Mostly annoyed at least. Now why is this?
Well, am I sometimes angry, jealous, sad, irritated by those who know not.

I read something a few weeks ago (on sott or the forum, but can't find it) on anger. Specifically it talked about irrational anger, and the root cause of it being feeling you are entitled/have a right to something. As soon as you feel the entitlement and don't receive it, the anger (or jealousy/fixation/obsession etc) flares up. Mostly the logic behind the right is flawed....for example I get angry when I am unable to fix electronic devices I 'know' I can fix.....well maybe I can't?
So the question is - what do you feel you have a right too?

Can you look at it logically and see that perhaps you can't always get what you 'have a right too'. You may not even 'have a right' to whatever it is.

My understanding of these things is that they are a negative behaviour that has substituted a genuine message from the body/subconscious about what we need to thrive. I was measuring my worth through 'fixing electronics'....so when I couldn't always perform a miracle I'd feel either angry or unworthy of existing.
If you can catch the faulty logic, trace it back and then see what positive behaviour it can be replaced with you can disarm the emotion. When you realise its a signal from the self that you do genuinely need something right now, but somewhere in the past the message got linked to negative behaviour (negative feedback is better than No feedback) you can choose what to replace it with - without blame or guilt, anger or self defeatism.

Its like feeling hungry triggering a (Pavlovian) emotional responce...the more hungry the more intense the emotions. The more you beat yourself up for having 'these stupid emotions' - your body/subconscious meanwhile is trying hard to tell you 'you are hungry/need food' all the while you are just receiving 'the emotions'.

So can you untie the two? What genuine signal from your body/subconscious is behind the 'anger'? Behind the 'right to attention from everyone/the universe'?
Or conversely, what signal from your subconscious/body are you ignoring (you hate being ignored right?).....

Just a note on possible messages, sometimes these signals show up as a result of inflammation/fatigue....and what your body/subconscious is trying to tell you is you need rest/to heal. Getting caught up in the anger tends to do the opposite (it drains and stresses the body).
 
Al Today said:
Are you doing everything in your power to address your situation?

Not everything, at once. This I cannot do. I continue to achieve goals. I have learned a long time ago that all can not be changed at once. Major items need to be broken up and chipped at. This is what I do.

It's not in anybody's power to do everything at once. You can only do what you can do, but are you is the question. Are you not doing things you know you should be doing, while simultaneously making excuses for why that happens?
 
Al Today said:
Hi Megan,

I will thank you for providing me the opportunity to see a major point. As I was angry and writing my rant, I was able to reflect on the past. As I was "reliving" and "feeling" the past, there was a crucial element that came to my attention. That is TIME. I was seeing my impatience at this situation. I also see the improvements achieved. For acceptance to gel with my character, it takes time to grow. This is what I see. Whatever you think, you do, and is not an issue with me. I have had a major revelation and I thank you for providing me the shock allowing me to see what I have not seen in years.

That's good, Al. I was just about to write something in response to your last reply to Megan, pointing out that you were basically giving the same reaction that led you to start this thread, but it looks like you got it. It might help for you to go back over your first reply to Megan and try to identify what you were feeling while writing it, and the implicit expectations you have of others (and yourself).
 
Al Today said:
...Whatever you think, you do, and is not an issue with me. I have had a major revelation and I thank you for providing me the shock allowing me to see what I have not seen in years.

Al, I am glad to hear that it had a positive effect. That was my intention, to reflect something back to you that might perhaps cause a light to come on.

Your earlier reply to me was interesting, a very different take on what I had been thinking than what I remember I was thinking. But that's what happens. We can only see so much, and what we can't see we fill in from imagination as necessary (or maybe even more than necessary). And I suppose there's nothing wrong with that as long as we are aware of it and don't take that part of our own thoughts seriously.
 
RedFox said:
Its like feeling hungry triggering a (Pavlovian) emotional responce...the more hungry the more intense the emotions. The more you beat yourself up for having 'these stupid emotions' - your body/subconscious meanwhile is trying hard to tell you 'you are hungry/need food' all the while you are just receiving 'the emotions'.

So can you untie the two? What genuine signal from your body/subconscious is behind the 'anger'? Behind the 'right to attention from everyone/the universe'?
Or conversely, what signal from your subconscious/body are you ignoring (you hate being ignored right?).....

What Redfox says here sums up what I would have liked to put down the last hour trying to reply to here.

Al, many times I have a hard time understanding what you are really trying to say and your 2nd reply to Megan above is one of those. Like you I have a feeling ignored issue. When I don't receive replies online I mostly think it relates to not coming through in a direct and relevant way, in this forum it is clear to me and makes me want to work harder on becoming relevant for the network. But with my parents, being ignored can trigger an anger that I mostly quelch as I intellectually see it's roots and consequential build. For me this anger is tied up with the shell I mistakengly built to protect and camouflage my Self from harm in a false personality. This cloak needs to be stripped by observation and lately I've have been working with the writing exercises mentioned and revisiting the rootcause with a felt sense (like Peter Levine's 'unspoken voice'). I find these methods in combination with EE to provide the needed tools to dismantle the cloak of invisbility (still have much work to do on attachment avoidance programs), which I find to be both a perception and identification issue.

Do you cheat on your diet, eating things you know you shouldn't be?

I do not think "cheat" is the operative word here. As I live with others, I do succumb to weakness. On the other hand, my spouse is growing with awareness as I grow. As long as improvement is demonstrable along with goals being achieved, much is improving.
I think what is important here is can you see some of your emotional merry go rounds pertaining to eating carbs and other culprits. Are you making excuses?
 
Al Today said:
I hate being ignored.

I suppose the way you measure the level of ignorance to your posts is through replies to you. (there is not a device to detect who is reading your post or not, so that would be the only way). If it is about replies, do you reply to all posts? Aren't there certain posts that you don't ignore but you simply don't have anything specific to say? Sometimes it is just that, there is nothing specific to add, which doesn't mean that you are being ignored or that what you wrote is wrong.

I had this same issue since the very childhood. And it continued most especially in groups of people of any kind, at school, jobs, friends, online, this group. Being someone with extreme shyness and extreme low self-esteem, I used to go from wanting to be ignored to wanting to be the center of attention many times, which seems to be the two faces of the same problem.

It seems it goes back to my parents not paying me attention, not regarding my needs and emotions and thoughts as valid at all. The feelings I have when feeling ignored are of anger, depression, feeling that I am a stupid that can not say anything helpful to others, and in some occations I even thought that the others were the stupids who were not seeing ''how ''interesting'' was what I said'', which is even worse. At the same time, in many situations I wanted to be ignored, believing that if I am exposed I wouldn't be able to deal with it, I wouldn't know what to say, or that what I said is pure nonesense. Seems that the urge to have attention goes back to what I said about parents, at least in my case. A way to compensate for not being respected by them for who I was since childhood and for my feelings and needs.
 
Al Today said:
Often it does boil down to a childish emotional need that has not been met.
Yes, and it does begin with childhood. I understand that being selfish is behind this. Seems that some programs just will not die. They merely go to sleep and awaken intermittantly. In the last event, I did not shut it down. I allowed the program to continue. This is part of a larger self-destruction program that I am aware of and do work on. This larger program is one of the main drivers for the selfish STS mode of living. Nothing comes easily nor instantly. Only through concious effort and continous practice will combat these... what I call character flaws. And with time, I am getting closer to achieving my goals.


Are there times where you do feel better or what have you done at other times to overcome this feeling?
I suck it up, remind myself it is me being unreasonable, keep my mouth shut, occupy my mind with another subject, and it will pass. Work seems to be the best distraction for disconnecting feeling of ill will.

<snip>

So you have the notion that "I cannot get over the hurdle of just letting go and moving on." It's something you "know" (i.e. "no") to be true. Is it really true? Have you consciously questioned it?
[...]
Yes. I do consciously question my inability to emotionally heal. Almost daily. To accept and be happy with daily effort. Yes, there is also jealousy involved. Maybe I have talents others do not. As you have that I do not. There is no "I" in the word team. So please, let me understand why I bug you so?

My observation/experience is that anger at being ignored is related to infantile narcissistic rage and not being cared for or having one's needs met at a very early time, possibly pre-verbal. I think it has happened to everybody at least a little because no parent is perfect, but to others a great deal more because the parent was inculcated with very bad ideas about child-rearing.

So, you've got this issue. Thing is, you have to live where you wake up even if some other person put you there while you were dreaming (including some other aspect of yourself, possibly.)

I often describe it as coming to yourself in the middle of a battlefield and wondering how the heck you got there. The first order of business is to survive until you can get out of that mess and that means stop being a target. You have to very quickly learn to master your fear and impulses to react to everything going on around you so you can "get out alive".

Mastering fear is the key because you have to understand that all of the other negative emotions you are talking about emerge from fear; fear of annihilation.

Strangely, when we are afraid of being annihilated (ignored, starved, cold, etc), we often do the very things that create the scenarios that make what we fear more likely to happen! You know, anger, jealousy, acting out, etc... all come from this fear of being ignored, unwanted, hungry, cold (what the infant fears), and that just turns people against us and they do what we fear!

Mastering fear often means doing what "it" doesn't like or want to do. When you are upset because you are being ignored, pay attention to how much you are ignoring others in your focus on yourself. When you feel that you are not accepted, pay attention to how much you are voicing your acceptance of others. What are you doing constructive?

It seems from your comments quoted above that you do know how to master these things, you just don't realize that doing this with the right attitude can change your whole perspective. It's all about how you interpret it, what the "story" is.

Have you read the thread "redirect" and tried the writing exercise in respect of this issue? Maybe you should write your life story and publish it on an anonymous blog, one chapter at a time, warts and all, and come to some resolution about the meaning of your life? It seems to me that it is a story worth telling, someone else might benefit from reading it, but at the very least, YOU would benefit from having a clear idea of where you have been vs where you are now and the meaning of it all.

As for meaning - what meaning is there in our lives if we do not have some positive effect on others? What luggage can we take out of this life except what we have done for others?
 
Hi, Al Today, the way you write your older posts, remind me the book of Hermann Hesse "Un pequeño mundo" I dont know the title in english of this compilation of short stories.
The thoughts of Laura about it were the same I was thinking to write:

Have you read the thread "redirect" and tried the writing exercise in respect of this issue? Maybe you should write your life story and publish it on an anonymous blog, one chapter at a time, warts and all, and come to some resolution about the meaning of your life? It seems to me that it is a story worth telling, someone else might benefit from reading it, but at the very least, YOU would benefit from having a clear idea of where you have been vs where you are now and the meaning of it all.

As for meaning - what meaning is there in our lives if we do not have some positive effect on others? What luggage can we take out of this life except what we have done for others?

Think about the moon: pale and without proper light, only reflected but never ignored.
 
Do I have excuses? Yep. pick a number...
When I know what needs to be done, Do I do ALL I can? Nope.

I lie. I lie to myself. I tell myself I do not lie to others. Obfuscation and dancing around a given subject is NOT telling the truth. I KNOW THIS. Yet, I continue to procrastinate.
Why?
First important lie is that I am strong. I guess I am really a wuss. I lie that I have overcome obstacles that others could or would not. Inflating my self-importance aren't I... Makes me feel good and rationalizes that I can overcome, but maybe I just won't right now...

I've hit bottom a few times while here on this forum. I think it's time for another big one.
This goes with the pain thing. Yep, I need to DO action in diet rather than graduated pieces that may never get me there. Seems that 'tis time for tears and some constructive stubbornness to get it done.

There are a few points in the replies that get to me...

My observation/experience is that anger at being ignored is related to infantile narcissistic rage and not being cared for or having one's needs met at a very early time, possibly pre-verbal. I think it has happened to everybody at least a little because no parent is perfect, but to others a great deal more because the parent was inculcated with very bad ideas about child-rearing.

So, you've got this issue.
Spot on. I'm speechless. I've always dismissed therapy. The flood of emotions is great right now. Completely unexpected. Oh the crap...

Then I quickly checked out attachment avoidance as a clue...
[quote author=http://stopthestorm.wordpress.com/attachment/attachment-simplified-organized-insecure-attachment-avoidant-dismissive/]AVOIDANCE child turns into a dismissing adult

++++

“…a fourteen-month-old boy who wants to climb onto a table with a lamp on it. One possible parental response would …be not to notice the attempt to climb, to hear the lamp come crashing down, to pick it up, and either to tell the boy quietly not to do it again or just to ignore him the rest of the evening. (siegel/tdm/282)”[/quote]
I was not passed around the family as much as some of my cousins. A whole clan of parents who didn't know what a parent was. I was not ignored all the time. I was also yelled at, dragged and/or hit. I remember picking my own cherry stinger for my whipping. I didn't get only the belt, sometimes the buckle got me too... WTF...

Have you read the thread "redirect" and tried the writing exercise in respect of this issue?
This is my next objective.

doing this with the right attitude can change your whole perspective
Already, my attitude has shifted. I need to continue working on these NOW, and not drop the ball.

Yep, I am such a freaking hypocite. Although I am not responding to all of you, I have been greatly impressed and I thank you for caring.
 
Laura said:
It seems from your comments quoted above that you do know how to master these things, you just don't realize that doing this with the right attitude can change your whole perspective. It's all about how you interpret it, what the "story" is.

Hi Al,

Not much can be added to the excellent advice that was already given, but just wanted to share with you something I discovered today, and since it helped me to see some things more clearly, maybe it will do the same for you.

Today, in psychology class, we were told about a neurologist and psychiatrist Viktor Frankl, who developed Logotherapy, and how his theories helped him to survive his time in concentration camp during WWII. So after looking up Logotherapy on the net, here's what wiki has to say about it:

The following list of tenets represents basic principles of logotherapy:

- Life has meaning under all circumstances, even the most miserable ones.
- Our main motivation for living is our will to find meaning in life.
- We have freedom to find meaning in what we do, and what we experience, or at least in the stand we take when faced with a situation of unchangeable suffering.[4]

The human spirit is referred to in several of the assumptions of logotherapy, but the use of the term spirit is not "spiritual" or "religious". In Frankl's view, the spirit is the will of the human being. The emphasis, therefore, is on the search for meaning, which is not necessarily the search for God or any other supernatural being.[5] Frankl also noted the barriers to humanity's quest for meaning in life. He warns against "...affluence, hedonism, [and] materialism..." in the search for meaning.[6]

According to Frankl, "We can discover this meaning in life in three different ways: (1) by creating a work or doing a deed; (2) by experiencing something or encountering someone; and (3) by the attitude we take toward unavoidable suffering" and that "everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms – to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances".[7] On the meaning of suffering, Frankl gives the following example:

Once, an elderly general practitioner consulted me because of his severe depression. He could not overcome the loss of his wife who had died two years before and whom he had loved above all else. Now how could I help him? What should I tell him? I refrained from telling him anything, but instead confronted him with a question, "What would have happened, Doctor, if you had died first, and your wife would have had to survive you?:" "Oh," he said, "for her this would have been terrible; how she would have suffered!" Whereupon I replied, "You see, Doctor, such a suffering has been spared her, and it is you who have spared her this suffering; but now, you have to pay for it by surviving and mourning her." He said no word but shook my hand and calmly left the office.[8]
— Viktor Frankl

Frankl emphasized that realizing the value of suffering is meaningful only when the first two creative possibilities are not available (for example, in a concentration camp) and only when such suffering is inevitable – he was not proposing that people suffer unnecessarily.[9]

Though Frankl admitted that man can never be free from every condition, such as, biological, sociological, or psychological determinants, based on his experience in the Holocaust, he believed that man is “capable of resisting and braving even the worst conditions”. In doing such, man can detach from situations, himself, choose an attitude about himself, determine his own determinants, thus shaping his own character and becoming responsible for himself.[10]

From what you shared with us, it is clear that you had to deal with serious adversities and had to suffer, and still have to deal with daily suffering and limitations. It's no doubt extremely hard, but maybe it is possible to look at it from another perspective and find a meaning that would give you the necessary strength. Something that would allow you to say that no matter how many adversities life would throw your way, there is something that worth all this pain. This way, it becomes your choice to face everything with the head held high, and is very empowering.
 
Keit said:
[...]
maybe it is possible to look at it from another perspective and find a meaning that would give you the necessary strength. Something that would allow you to say that no matter how many adversities life would throw your way, there is something that worth all this pain. This way, it becomes your choice to face everything with the head held high, and is very empowering.

Yes, 'tis possible and necessary for growth. I cannot think of any to state this better. Perception and attitude is the key. I have been in a rut, stagnant gathering mold. Time for some new goals to work for. I was going down the same road of my father. Staring out the window endlessly. This life is not to be wasted like that.
I cannot thank you enough.
 
Al Today, I thank you for making this thread. It has reminded me of my own very painful memories of infantile narcissistic rage & that being the root for how I interact with the world. I have a long way to go on the path of healing.

I wish you the very best in your journey to find peace in your being.

:cool2:
 
Menna said:
What is an example of an attachment avoidance program?

It could be a persistent drive to withdraw and be alone or having a hard time seeing the point in connecting with others.
See here for details on the condition.
 
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