Blockchain technology

[hlat]

I sit and wonder about the vast real resources depleted for this "money", either in the form of bitcoin mining or gold mining. It's not food or shelter or vital resource, but all about control. Bitcoin will always be tracked and monitored and therefore controlled. Bitcoin will never be free of control because it will never hide from the controllers. For the people who have profited from bitcoin, that is great and I hope you use the profits wisely, though it doesn't seem very different than other forms of financial speculation such as real estate and stocks.

 

[jonspock]

I sit and wonder about the vast real resources depleted for this "money", either in the form of bitcoin mining or gold mining. It's not food or shelter or vital resource, but all about control. Bitcoin will always be tracked and monitored and therefore controlled. Bitcoin will never be free of control because it will never hide from the controllers. For the people who have profited from bitcoin, that is great and I hope you use the profits wisely, though it doesn't seem very different than other forms of financial speculation such as real estate and stocks.

Well I used to think that too, but there are other cryptocurrencies that are not based on Proof-of-Work (i.e mining) but rather Proof-of-Stake such as PIVX, Peercoin, Blackcoin, etc. These currencies use minimal resources and in addition one has the mechanism to support privacy, which breaks the ability of transactions to be traced to a user.
For example regarding resources see this for a quick overview : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dozy4VH370

 

[Mike]

I found the below thoughts by Jim Sinclair interesting to consider. I have wondered for some time why TPTB haven't done a full on attack on cryptocurrencies, etc. Some have thought that they could not outright attack it, since the decentralized nature of them made that an impossibility. TPTB have to have a plan IMO to co-opt or restrict the impact cryptos, if they are truely a threat, could have on the control and influence they maintain currently via the monetary, banking, finance systems and plans for a full on cashless society. Perhaps what Jim Sinclair writes is their plan. If it is, then could be a bit of wishful thinking and letting the genie out of the bottle OSIT.

https://www.jsmineset.com/2017/07/28/be-prepared-the-coming-cashless-society/

Counting the steps to a cashless/digital currency? Count this one. Crypto-currencies have been around for a while, and Bitcoin has been one of the most successful. Banking institutions have allowed them to remain so far, only because it reinforces their agenda toward a cashless/digital currency. The more accepted digital (crypto) currencies are, the easier it will be for governments and financial institutions to push their agenda of eliminating physical currency.

Virtual currency has a future, but it may not be what you think. In order for central banks and sovereigns to easily employ digital currency, it must be accepted. Ultimately, central banks and sovereigns must have no digital competition. In the meantime, the crypto-currencies have been left alone so that people will embrace the idea of being cashless. Many people in all segments of the population are already virtually cashless. Payments are made online, by debit/credit cards, bank transfers, etc. No physical money changes hands, only digits on balance sheets are used as payment. As more and more people subscribe to a cashless transaction basis, the easier the it will be for a central bank or sovereign to employ it. The other virtual currencies (so-called “money”) will simply self destruct. Many will turn out to be new Ponzi schemes or be regulated out of existence. The crypto-currencies presently in place are the beta tests for governments and central banks for the cashless future, in which all “money” is virtual, all reportable, all controllable and all accessible to banks and sovereigns, and best of all – regulated by them.

Federal Reserve Full Faith and Guarantee Treasury bills in low denominations with the ability to make change is the future. They will be known as Federal Full Faith money (F3M). Your wallet will be overseen by the banking system and the government when everything we perceive to be “money” is digital. This will not apply to gold which is outside of that system. [...]

 

[jonspock]

I found the below thoughts by Jim Sinclair interesting to consider. I have wondered for some time why TPTB haven't done a full on attack on cryptocurrencies, etc. Some have thought that they could not outright attack it, since the decentralized nature of them made that an impossibility. TPTB have to have a plan IMO to co-opt or restrict the impact cryptos, if they are truely a threat, could have on the control and influence they maintain currently via the monetary, banking, finance systems and plans for a full on cashless society. Perhaps what Jim Sinclair writes is their plan. If it is, then could be a bit of wishful thinking and letting the genie out of the bottle OSIT.

https://www.jsmineset.com/2017/07/28/be-prepared-the-coming-cashless-society/

Counting the steps to a cashless/digital currency? Count this one. Crypto-currencies have been around for a while, and Bitcoin has been one of the most successful. Banking institutions have allowed them to remain so far, only because it reinforces their agenda toward a cashless/digital currency. The more accepted digital (crypto) currencies are, the easier it will be for governments and financial institutions to push their agenda of eliminating physical currency.

Virtual currency has a future, but it may not be what you think. In order for central banks and sovereigns to easily employ digital currency, it must be accepted. Ultimately, central banks and sovereigns must have no digital competition. In the meantime, the crypto-currencies have been left alone so that people will embrace the idea of being cashless. Many people in all segments of the population are already virtually cashless. Payments are made online, by debit/credit cards, bank transfers, etc. No physical money changes hands, only digits on balance sheets are used as payment. As more and more people subscribe to a cashless transaction basis, the easier the it will be for a central bank or sovereign to employ it. The other virtual currencies (so-called “money”) will simply self destruct. Many will turn out to be new Ponzi schemes or be regulated out of existence. The crypto-currencies presently in place are the beta tests for governments and central banks for the cashless future, in which all “money” is virtual, all reportable, all controllable and all accessible to banks and sovereigns, and best of all – regulated by them.

Federal Reserve Full Faith and Guarantee Treasury bills in low denominations with the ability to make change is the future. They will be known as Federal Full Faith money (F3M). Your wallet will be overseen by the banking system and the government when everything we perceive to be “money” is digital. This will not apply to gold which is outside of that system. [...]

I don't know what regulations will happen but this is not really true - "The crypto-currencies presently in place are the beta tests for governments and central banks for the cashless future, in which all “money” is virtual, all reportable, all controllable and all accessible to banks and sovereigns, and best of all – regulated by them."
There *are* crypto-currencies currently that are not traceable or controllable and can not be controlled by banks. Bitcoin may have been a beta test, but highly unlikely that most of the more than 900 cryptocurrency clones are driven by agencies or banks. Not sure these will self destruct either as many people using them are self-interested to keep them going

 

[Mike]

I don't know what regulations will happen but this is not really true - "The crypto-currencies presently in place are the beta tests for governments and central banks for the cashless future, in which all “money” is virtual, all reportable, all controllable and all accessible to banks and sovereigns, and best of all – regulated by them."
There *are* crypto-currencies currently that are not traceable or controllable and can not be controlled by banks. Bitcoin may have been a beta test, but highly unlikely that most of the more than 900 cryptocurrency clones are driven by agencies or banks. Not sure these will self destruct either as many people using them are self-interested to keep them going

I don't necessarily think he meant that the governments or banks are in control and behind the creation and growth of crypto's with Ripple in my opinion being the exception to this. What I think he was saying is that they have allowed them to get to this point ie haven't made major moves to make them illegal or tried to implement strict regulation as in to get the masses of people to be acquainted with them and accept them and eventually full digitized currency with no other options as valid. His line of thinking might go along the lines of allowing the people's free choice to adopt decentralized crypto's to then allow governments to get rid of any physical cash and then have the governments make the decentralized crypto's illegal or very hard to use via regulation. Then governments would give the centralized crypto currency as the only means to transact.

You're right about some crypto's that are supposedly not traceable, etc, such as Cloak. I'm not sure if some will self-destruct either other than going away due to not having enough interest and use by people. If things get bad enough though in terms of economic problems and violence and what have you, then the majority of people might accept whatever options the authorities give them. All in the name of returning stability. Another factor in all of this I think is the wishful thinking and blundering TPTB have done in terms of Russia and possibly China. It is not only the will of the people they have to contend with, but a growing resistance to and alternative to the New World Order/One World Government agenda via Russia. Trump also might have put a speed bump or hold on their plans and caused them to temporarily delay them or change them.

 

[jonspock]

Good points!

 

[jonspock]

You may not be aware that Mazacoin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MazaCoin) was created by someone from the Oglala Sioux tribe in 2014 as a response to Black Hills seizure (http://www.newsweek.com/2014/08/22/tribe-brought-you-custers-last-stand-sitting-bulls-bitcoin-264440.html). I've decided to help them because they are struggling and it's a good cause to help them bootstrap themselves from poverty. So I'd like to invite others who are interested in helping in any way to join the Telegram group (https://t.me/mazatribe). Please don't join up unless you truly want to help and have something to offer as it is a very small group and there aren't the resources to spend much time helping new people.

 

[Ant22]

Russian govt wants to protect public from bitcoin trading as it resembles ‘financial pyramid': https://www.rt.com/business/401265-bitcoin-russia-control-exchange/

The Moscow Exchange is working on a mechanism to regulate trading in bitcoin and other digital currencies. At the same time, the Russian Finance Ministry says bitcoin resembles a pyramid scheme, and trading should be limited.

“We are already working on creating an infrastructure for such trades, in particular, a platform for post-trading services for crypto assets," a spokesperson for the Moscow Exchange told TASS news agency.

“The platform would allow trading both the cryptocurrencies themselves and their derivatives; the trade in form of Exchange Trade Funds would also be possible,” the Exchange said in a separate interview with the RNS news agency.

However, officials in the Russian government remain skeptical about bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies.

"There is a point of view that cryptocurrencies like bitcoin are a financial pyramid. It's hard to argue with this point of view. The investments are very risky," said Deputy Finance Minister Aleksey Moiseev in an interview with Rossiya 24 TV Channel.

According to him, operations through the Moscow Exchange will allow "protection of the rights of buyers and sellers," as well as guarantee the execution of contracts, if one of the parties to the transaction turns out to be unfair.

Moiseev added that the finance ministry wants to limit access “by the general public to bitcoin trading because it is a very dangerous investment.”

The right to trade bitcoins will only be granted to “qualified investors.” To get the status, you need to have at least six million rubles on your account ($100,000), make at least 40 transactions a year with a turnover of six million rubles or work for at least two years in a financial institution that traded securities.

Earlier, the ministry wanted to declare cryptocurrency trading in Russia illegal, but now wants to regulate it as an asset, Moiseev stressed.

 

[Mikey]

"There is a point of view that cryptocurrencies like bitcoin are a financial pyramid. It's hard to argue with this point of view. The investments are very risky," said Deputy Finance Minister Aleksey Moiseev in an interview with Rossiya 24 TV Channel.

Unfortunate confusion of concepts, and I smell propaganda (or a bad translation). It is correct that both Bitcoin trading and pyramid schemes are risky. But that doesn't make Bitcoin a pyramid scheme. One can run pyramid schemes on top of everything, on regular money or even on top of precious metals.

But I do think that they are right in regulating it, because, as with every risky business, many people will hurt themselves otherwise.

 

[Scottie]

Russian govt wants to protect public from bitcoin trading as it resembles ‘financial pyramid': https://www.rt.com/business/401265-bitcoin-russia-control-exchange/

Of course, one might argue (especially if one is friends with the PTB) that Russia is trying to prevent the amazing "Freedom and Democracy and Instant Riches and Overthrowing the Economic Elite" power of Bitcoin from totally revolutionizing their country...

One might also argue that the whole thing stinks to high heaven, and that Russia knows where popular cryptocurrencies are heading long term... Because there have been other articles in recent times that Russia is developing and/or considering its own cryptocurrency stuff...

Even if the actual tech is fabulous, what has happened to every single tech that has been released in human history? Hint: It hasn't been used for the liberation and betterment of humankind. More like enslavement, with a few little "breaths of fresh air" here and there. THAT is modern tech in 3D.

Actually, that's another problem: I don't see blockchain as "fabulous tech". A technology is only fabulous when it's used for certain purposes. The internet is great for things like this forum, but it's also used for nefarious purposes as well.

The tech itself is neutral, so when people tell me, "But blockchain is AWE-SOME!" then I tend to think they've lost the plot. I'm not interested in what tech MIGHT do; I'm interested in what it's actually doing, right now, because that's the only thing that really matters. The rest is just more dreams of "Hope and Change" while governments and people go nuts, meters of rain wash away cities, etc.

Just as it's "comfortable" to think that Obama would bring Hope and Change, it's also "comfortable" to think that just investing in Bitcoin is gonna help fix the world. If only it were that easy... or even possible in the first place!

To me, the popular cryptos do look like a pyramid scheme, and they do look like a bubble waiting to burst.

I mean, seriously... I could take a photo of dog poop, put it on the internet, and say that this amazing new device, powered by Blockchain TechnologyTM, will revolutionize the back yards of the whole world. In the current climate, people would throw money at me. Come to think of it, why haven't I done that yet?

Well, anyway... At this point, I can only say: Очень хорошо, товарищи! :P

 

[Carl]

Funny how the regulation is being taken as bad news for cryptocurrency by so many people. It's actually setting the groundwork for a massive influx of institutional money and eventually cleaning up a lot of the scamminess and wild-west environment.

This article in Forbes is pretty good as well:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2017/08/30/moscow-stock-exchange-opens-to-crypto-currency-trade/#5bcbda2e26d1

This actually involves Waves, which is the Russian cryptocurrency platform that I have been talking about for some time now.

The depository for the Moscow stock exchange recently partnered with the Waves platform to develop this very blockchain platform mentioned in the RT and Forbes article.
https://blog.wavesplatform.com/waves-to-develop-digital-asset-platform-for-russian-national-settlement-depository-959c916022ad

In fact the progress of Waves provides a lot of insight into where the global market is actually going, and just how big it could potentially be.

The Waves vision was always eventually be a hub of exchange of fiat currency, crypto currencies, and even tokenized real world assets and commodities.


They formed a strategic partnership with Deloitte (one of the Big 4 accounting firms):
https://blog.wavesplatform.com/deloitte-cis-and-waves-platform-to-shape-the-future-of-blockchain-674e17c3b067

Strategic partnership with Gazprombank (Russia's 3rd largest bank):
https://blog.wavesplatform.com/gazprombank-digital-and-waves-platform-enter-strategic-partnership-3888ec94c768

Working with Astana International Financial Centre towrad regulating crypto transactions, blockchain assets, trading, and ICOs in the CIS region (Russia and Former soviet republics, specifically Kazakhstan here.
http://www.aifc.kz/en/news/92.html

“Kazakhstan became the second country in the world, after Japan, which recognized the need for the development of the cryptocurrency market system at the governmental level. The development of the digital currency market on the basis of the Astana International Financial Centre is the first step towards a creation of a full-fledged ecosystem for the digital economy in Kazakhstan”, says Natalia Sheiko, partner of Kesarev Consulting.

Partnership with Russian billionaire to assist in investment in startups and ICOs:
https://www.crowdfundinsider.com/2017/06/101719-russian-billionaire-boris-titov-collaborates-with-waves-on-ico-incubator-people-of-growth/

Whilst there have been a large number of crowdfunding success stories in the blockchain space in recent months, with multiple eight-figure raises, the goal of this project — called ‘People of Growth’ — is to help companies in the real economy to leverage the benefits of ICOs. This new financial instrument allows them to raise money in cryptocurrency for their projects, from supporters all over the world, regardless of the sector in which they operate.

^ Everything is gonna be an ICO. You will be able to start an ICO for a wood chopping business!

They are starting their first steps, with Burger King launching a crypto token on the Waves network:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41082388

From the Waves Roadmap - a lot of focus is being put into regulation and compliance now.
https://blog.wavesplatform.com/waves-updated-roadmap-2017-f5d75c8f33c7

Securities laws are rather strict across the world, so you need to take special care with compliance here. We’re developing a centralized platform, Tokenomica.com, which is going to work on top of the Waves blockchain, and provide 100% compliant legal framework for different types of token crowdsales, including private equity crowdsales. We’re working with top legal firms on this, and we are pleased with their commitment and interest in this new emerging business. Blockchains are becoming mainstream, and the feedback we get from legal companies is really encouraging.

This focus on regulation is happening across the board in many countries and every serious crypto project.

In fact China is hurriedly trying to get a proper regulatory framework in place to deal with this explosion, to the point where they are considering suspending all Chinese ICOs in the mean time:
https://www.coindesk.com/reports-chinas-regulators-consider-suspending-icos/


People are calling this a bubble right now, but in my opinion the real bubble has not even started. Unless we get cometary catastrophe first, this is going to be massive.

Fix the world? Nah. But it will eventually make a change to virtually every area finance, business, venture capital, app development, and internet-of-things stuff. And it doesn't hurt to make some money through paying close attention to signs and what is happening.

Also I would like to hear of any investment in the world that is not a pyramid scheme, other than investing in yourself and your skills/knowledge. The alternatives such as Real Estate, stocks, bonds, precious metals are just as much of a pyramid scheme. Those who spot signs early, make moves early and take the biggest risks have a chance at getting the biggest rewards.


P.S. That is the price chart of Ethereum since I first made the post on this on April 21st. The chart illustrates the massive gains or massive losses you can have in crypto, depending on timing - it is very risky indeed. Having said that, I suspect Waves and others are going to do something similar.

 

[whitecoast]

Thanks for the links Carl. I've been growing more interested in cryptocurrencies as a option in speculation lately.

Funny how the regulation is being taken as bad news for cryptocurrency by so many people. It's actually setting the groundwork for a massive influx of institutional money and eventually cleaning up a lot of the scamminess and wild-west environment.

I think the devil's in the details when it comes to regulations. Of course it is beneficial to prohibit outright fraud and thievery, but trying to control how the markets themselves function through officially sanctioned "platforms" and the like just create a single point-of-failure, where there's a lot of concentrated risk of blow-ups and other severely compromising black swans.

There is no free lunch; what people often deem as reducing risk is in fact just transfering it to other parties. The everyday volatility of the cryptocurrency scene actually contributes to the market's long-term overall robustness. If some people lose money, that's just a lesson in itself on what not to do, and is how the market itself learns and evolves.

 

[Mikey]

The tech itself is neutral, so when people tell me, "But blockchain is AWE-SOME!" then I tend to think they've lost the plot.

Indeed. Because:

First, a blockchain is just a linked list of data blocks. Saying that a blockchain is awesome (or bad) is equivalent to saying that a database, or regular text file, or a blank paper page with a pen is awesome (or bad), which is an amusing statement to say the least.

Second, there are many different ways to construct a blockchain.

Third, a blockchain, like any other database, is general purpose. It can hold arbitrary data. The use case of value transactions (i.e. 'coins') is just one specific application out of many. Currently there is a flurry of development going on to use blockchain databases in about every industry sector one can imagine. Yes, blockchain databases are slow (in the case of Bitcoin 1MB of writes per 10 minutes) and can only hold a minimal amount of data, but that is the price to pay for other unique properties that set them apart from centralized databases controlled by just a single entity.

Fourth, to complicate matters even further, one can store arbitrary data even on a blockchain which is primarily used for coin transactions. For example, the Bitcoin blockchain/database is also used by other software projects as an underlying mechanism to store decentralized DNS records etc.

And sixth, the funniest point in my view, is how the term "blockchain" is often used in singular only, and without article, usually by people who only follow buzzwords. This reminds me of the misuse of other internet technology terms like "agile development" or "responsive", leading to funny questions like: "Does this software have agile?"

There are now hundreds of cryptocurrencies and all of them exhibit very different properties. Thus, even if one would be more specific by saying that "cryptocurrencies are awesome", it would be equivalent to saying that "computer programs are awesome".

In short, in a highly confused topic like this, one should be specific and precise in use of language.

I'm not interested in what tech MIGHT do; I'm interested in what it's actually doing, right now, because that's the only thing that really matters.

But the potential to become something in the future is important as well. Otherwise it would be tossing the baby with the bathwater... In the case of internet tech, we can be glad that it was continuned with entusiasm, despite its initial flaws. Otherwise we wouln't be reading this forum today, powered by and completely embedded in open source software! :) Everything in our world is kinda flawed, but we still work on all things in the hopes that it may become better and allow someone to find some constructive use case in the future which would not have been possible otherwise. And maybe, just maybe, amongst such use cases, could be one that can change our world to the better, even if only slightly. Then all the work will have been worth it. Some blockchain mechanisms do exhibit properties with great such potential.

I mean, seriously... I could take a photo of dog poop, put it on the internet, and say that this amazing new device, powered by Blockchain TechnologyTM, will revolutionize the back yards of the whole world. In the current climate, people would throw money at me.

Well, probably only the misinformed people... It is trivial to hard-fork Bitcoin, or start it from scratch under some other name. You can do it easily in less than one hour. But all those MyCoinsTM would be worthless (because it was easy) until people are willing to exchange it into other forms of money. How to get there? Well, that's where the real work and corresponding value is hidden... There is still no free lunch, and 'cryptocurrencies' themselves never have claimed to be an exception, nor have they broken this principle.

 

[Mikey]

I propose that we change the name of this thread to 'Cryptocurrencies', or even 'Blockchain technology', and get some more discussion if anyone is interested.

I changed the title from "Bitcoin" to "Blockchain technology" to better reflect the broader contents in the posts. I also moved this topic from the "Questions for the C's" subforum to the "What's on your mind" subforum.

 

[Scottie]

McAfee is a "character", but this vid is pretty interesting anyway (at least the first 15 minutes or so):

http://<iframe width="560" height="...UA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Especially considering McAfee himself, the kind of person he seems to be, and what he might actually do...