Capitalism and Socialism: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

I've read this theory, and my problem with it is the idea that banks would have acquiesced to government-mandated policy to give loans to people that were unlikely to be able to pay them back without the understanding that those bad loans would be covered...by the government, or rather, taxpayer. The idea that the banks were forced to 'do good' by the people at the expense of the banks doesn't make any sense (from what we know of the banking sector) and it is not borne out in terms of the result of the whole fiasco: banks made out like bandits and people lost their shirts (and their houses). It was all 'accidental' though. Yep, and I've got some ocean-front property in Arizona to sell, and the bank will give you a loan for it too!

The rabbit hole on mortgage lending goes a bit deeper than that - and the banks and wholesale investors always win. The bank bail outs are deceptions because the banks never needed them. These operations are hidden because they're done through trusts - and the beneficiaries of those trusts are the bank and the wholesale investors.

Banks bundle up different classes of mortgages into 'tranches' that are held in trust funds created by the bank. These tranches are then offered to wholesale investors at 5, 10 or 20 year terms. Where a mortgage has a high degree of risk, the borrower is made to pay what is referred to here in Australia as Lenders Mortgage Insurance - the cost of this insurance is added to the total loan. This insurance has a high premium, but it doesn't protect the borrower at all. It protects the bank and the wholesale investors if the borrower fails to repay. The message of Lenders Mortgage Insurance is basically - 'you don't qualify for a mortgage, the probability is that you can't or won't repay it, but we're going to give the mortgage to you anyway if you pay for this insurance.'

So, the bank writes the mortgage, takes title over the property, collects interest on the loan for as long as the borrower can repay, sells the security to investors creating another income source, and insures the whole deal at the cost of the borrower. The borrower stops paying, the bank and the investors collect on insurance and additionally, sell the property that they've taken title over.

Definition of 'tranche' Tranches

About Lenders Mortgage Insurance Capital markets and structured transaction

Attached is a Memorandum of Association of one such trust.

General searches on 'trusts owned by [bank name here]' brings up stock exchange listings and sometimes pages on bank websites listing the series of trusts for each investment year.
 

Attachments

Project that forward and you start to get the image portrayed in many dystopian future movies, where most people live like robots in totally unnatural and controlled megacities while the rest live outside in the wastelands, destroyed by some natural or man-made catastrophe.

You know, I honestly see a possible future where biological sex is pretty much meaningless, gender is an aesthetic choice, and people are so infertile from all the pollution that governments and corporations need to grow people in labs. Maybe the richer governments and corporations genetically engineer their future generation of workers, which would be raised from birth to have unconditional loyalty (as the corporation is literally their only family). Never mind that people living in this system may be liquidated in a "360th trimester abortion" (since a woman has the "right to choose" and a corporate AI CEO can identify as a woman if she wishes) if the economy is rough and the board of directors has to cut jobs.

Encourages, or is mandated and enforced by the State? See, I read the term 'wealth redistribution' and all I think about is the government taking my money and giving it to other people. So maybe we ought to define what some of these things mean, because I could very well not be understanding some of the aspects of socialism. I think most people's problems with socialism really come down to more government control over people's lives. We're already decrying the loss of liberty in the West since 9/11. Why would we want a different system that has even more government control over people's decisions?

The bolded part is, I think, one of the hardest parts of having constructive discussions about economic systems. I think this is because economic though originated in the age of scientific thinking (to use Collingwood's term), which means that the ideas are subject to certain limitations and can often be decontextualized from relevant historical contingencies (eg, the joint-stock corporation's invention and its intimate relationship with the mercantilist state seems to be conveniently forgotten about by laissez-faire purists, never mind these are the genealogical forerunners to the corporate robber barons of the early 20th century and the incestuous corporatocracy/bureaucracy of the modern USA). Without historical context, people can just make up defintions on the fly. I think the Distributist said it best in the conversation I link below: Is capitalism any operation of free agents in a market context, like libertarians would say but most Marxists won't? Is feudalism capitalism? Marx would say no but other socialists would say yes. Is Stalinism a form of capitalism? Some communists say that it is.

The above was part of a riveting conversation between an agnostic socialist academic and a religious proponent of a form of Catholic Third-Way economic theory called Distributism. What I found interesting was that neither of these individuals were capitalists (which for the sake of debate they defined as the current economic system of the west - characterized by government and join-stock corporate inter-relations supporting globalism and increasing freedom for both these governments and joint-stock corporations). In spite of both of them not being capitalists they seemed to criticize it from two different angles: one from the left and one from the right, and both seemed to be adamant about some things that the other simply wasn't interested in. For example, the question of an entrepreneurial class in a market dominated by worker co-ops was a concern of the Distributist, but not the socialist. Whereas the socialist was very adamant about democratic control over some industries (such as namely healthcare/education), the Distributist wanted government control of industry, democratic or not, devolved to a more local or municipal or level, where scaling issues are less pronounced and people have more freedom to leave and move to a different city with different services if it was poorly run (much easier than changing countries).

One thing both the socialist and the Distributist agreed upon early on was that you cannot destroy hierarchy; you can only redesign it. People are going to be naturally hierarchical, but you can design your economic system so that it has relatively less hierarchy, or has less executive/autocratic decision-making structures and more consensus-driven/procedural decision-making structures (as was done in the evolution of republics from monarchies). I ended up liking the Distributist more not only because I'm a fan of decentralized systems (where it's harder for a bad apple to thwart the whole), but because it's also an economic theory that, due to its relationship with Catholic thought, takes for granted a higher purpose and spirituality in the world, unlike the sterile shizoidal capitalist/socialist theories that take for granted a materialistic and nihilistic universe.

 
In my estimation, socialism is a better system for the way that it encourages cooperation rather than the focus on the more self-serving inclinations of the individual that is a core aspect of capitalism.

Nah, now I'm triggered :lol:

Look, I know you have thought long and hard about suffering and its role in spiritual advancement. So whether altruism is any good depends on a whole lot of things. I think it is best understood as a personal relationship of "spiritual guidance" between the "giver" and the recipient. Which isn't to say that suffering is a good thing obviously, but socialism, as well as capitalism, is predicated upon the utterly simplistic and dumb theory that we should "maximize net happiness". That isn't altruism in any deeper sense and only leads to problems.

I think the conservatives criticizing socialism have some very good arguments going for them. Which of course doesn't mean that socialists don't also have some very good arguments going for them!

For example, Pierre made a good point above about unemployment benefits which is a good example of how such simplistic "altruism" works. Blanket minimum wages are another. Taken together, these two things massively contribute to the destruction of low-end jobs (global capitalism obviously doing its share as well). But low-end jobs are absolutely crucial for the spiritual advancement and well-being of those stuck at the bottom. Real altruism, then, would be about doing everything to help them, if they want, to get their act together by working a very, very low-end job and taking it from there. Throwing money at them by means of a monstrous beaurocracy is the opposite of that.

It's the complete opposite of real "Service" because it rewards the "bad spirits" and punishes the "virtuous spirits" (meaning those on the low-end who detest being on welfare to the point that they are willing to live an even more miserable life financially just to stand on their own feet).

Perhaps think of it like the work of advanced spirits described in the Afterlife thread. How do they go about altruism? Do they reward the "bad spirits"? No, it's a constant reaching out, and once someone takes your hand, an informed guidance on a spiritual level. Enlightenment "benevolence" and "happiness-maximization" on the other hand are disastrous. At best it's a simulation of altruism, an "outsourcing" of altruism to bureaucrats. And arguably, true altruism is neither produced by some "free market making everyone rich & happy" nor by some pseudo-benevolent Utopians.

In our real world, it always comes down to this IMO: the worst aspects of socialism are systematically combined with the worst aspects of capitalism, with the US leading the charge.

Take "free" healthcare: there is a valid argument to be made against it, because obviously, public "free" healthcare gives the underlying bureaucracy huge power. Which means they can decide what treatments are "allowed" and what aren't. They get easily hijacked by the pharma mafia and other interests. Imagine a system where your local doctors would freely compete and you would pay them cash. I bet that a whole lot more people would try, for example, Vit C treatment for cancer for 200 bucks before they spend 100k on Chemo etc.. Now, of course, there are also good arguments for "free" healthcare for all. But you know what's the worst solution? Replacing the public healthcare system with an oligopoly of private insurers! It's basically the same system as public healthcare, only more expensive for the people AND even less altruistic because those companies are only beholden to their shareholders and therefore must screw you over and cheat you out of your benefits. The very idea is insane!

Or take public education: There is a good "conservative" argument to be made for completely independent schools "competing" with each other. You know, homeschool if you like, send your kids to a religious school, to a science-focussed school, whatever. Freedom and democracy and all that. I like it! Of course, the free public education system also has something going for it. But now combine the worst aspects of both, and what do you get? A system where you have to pay for your school, but the curriculum is still heavily dictated, AND postmodern nonsense, Darwinism etc. is still drilled into children because it has to, homeschooling is either forbidden altogether or extremely regulated/discouraged (can't have parents with anti-Darwinian or anti-Climate Change inclinations teach their kids!) etc. The worst of both worlds!

There are many, many more examples. And I suspect that's part of the reason why people can discuss "socialism vs. capitalism" till the cows come home without a solution. Both are pathological ideas based on horribly wrong assumptions, with each one containing some truths and good points. It's like choosing whether you want to be ruled by a dystopian totalitarian bureaucracy mushing your brain with double-speak or you want to be ruled by a global caste of psycho-capitalists stealing everything and messing with our minds/divide and conquer to stay in power. In fact, both are probably the same types of people. No thanks!

And again, I think there's no way around realizing how deeply flawed our view of almost everything has become, and how detached from true virtues, a true spiritual outlook and understanding of life, especially since the enlightenment. We must leave this stupid materialist mindset already and forget about "grand system-building".

It's no coincidence I think that the best thinkers, instead of building grand systems, have realized the utter futility of all such things. They pretty much came to the conclusion that we're doomed. Which reminds me of this quote by the Cs:

Q: (L) One of the things we have been discussing is that a number of people seem to be experiencing the sensation that they have simply had enough of the negative energies and experiences of 3rd density. This amounts to a soul deep weariness where nothing, not even the beauties and wonders of the world are any longer desirable. Yes, we can appreciate them, but the attraction is gone. There is even a revulsion to food and the idea of having to eat other living things whether animal or vegetable. I have thought lately that this feeling of having had enough, in an absolute sense, is one of the primary motivators for wanting to find one's way out of this density we are in. Is this part of this "nature" or "natural progression" as you call it?

A: Yes. When you see the futility of the limitations of 3rd density life, it means you are ready to graduate. Notice those who wallow in it.

It was in a different context, but perhaps this futility/limitations also applies to discussions about "grand systems". Without adding a deeply spiritual element here, based on "STO-knowledge" and experience, how does it make sense to discuss "systems" as if they were cars or factories? (Materialism strikes again!) And how can you separate true spiritual virtues and spiritual development from any such considerations?
 
I think most people's problems with socialism really come down to more government control over people's lives
I understand that. But even without governments you life is controlled. For example, as a worker in a environment without government, it is the one who hires you (the corporation, the 'capitalist') who controls your working condition (wage, safety, productivity, duties, liabilities...)

With or without governments, most of the time ponerization will interfer and we will end with the worse of capitalism, the worse of socialism or the worse of both.

If we exclude ponerization, a purely theorical standpoint, capitalism reduce human beings to purely selfish and materialistic agents while at least socialism acknowledges that humans beings are more than that. That's why I think that the latter is closer to truth.
 
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There is something of a historical inavetibility that leads capitalism to socialism. Even when one fears government control, unchecked capitalism leads via the Pareto effect to the emergence of a concentrated elite that de facto becomes the government. Someone from the soviet union, don't remember whom, remarked that "socialist" revolutions are not accomplished by the working class, but by the children of doctors and lawyers. That's what we see today from Yale and Harvard, institutions that rose to prominence via "competition" or in other words, survival of the fittest.

Here is what David Stove writes about what he calls "hard man darwinism":

But what is it, then, that Hard Men in their extensive writings do say? Why, this. Instead of saying, what according to their own theory, they should say, that unemployment relief (for example) is impossible, they say it is deplorable. (Because it actually increases poverty, both by rewarding economic dependence and by penalising independence.) Instead of saying, what their own theory implies, that a hospital among humans is inconceivable, like a hospital among flies, they say that hospitals are injurious to our species. (Because they enable unfit persons to survive and reproduce.) Instead of saying, what Darwinism really implies, that governments and priesthoods are hallucinations, they say that they are harmful. (Because they interfere with or negate the salutary processes of competition and natural selection.)

---

... One of the most influential of these, and one of the best too, is Herbert Spencer's The Man versus the State (1884).
This book is a powerful polemic against the encroachments of modern governments on the liberty of individuals.

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And yet, for all its absurdity, it is very easy to understand how The Man versus the State came to be written. By 1884 the franchise in Britain had been extended to include virtually all adult males, with many results which could easily be foreseen. One of these results, which Spencer could see happening, and which by 1884 even
a blind man could have seen, was that taxation was already obliging the middle and upper classes to have fewer children, in order that .governments could support the irrepressible flood of offspring of the poor. But on the other hand, Darwinism says that population always presses on the supply of food, and that, from this pressure,
competition for survival, and natural selection, must always ensue. Well, then, if Darwinism is an article of faith with you, as it was with Spencer, things like hospitals and unemployment relief are bound to look like wicked attempts to mislead the inevitable [ie. the survival of the fittest].
 
Someone from the soviet union, don't remember whom, remarked that "socialist" revolutions are not accomplished by the working class, but by the children of doctors and lawyers.

Exactly. That's how a growing number of alternative historians describe the French revolution too, which was the direct political application of the enlightenment "philosophy".

The revolution was orchestrated by a rising dominating class, mostly Protestants (Jansenist), city dwellers, industrialists and financiers who destroyed the old order (the Church and the King of divine right, both representatives of God on Earth) and replaced the Christian God with a new god: the materialist individual.

This point is clearly illustrated by the 1789 declaration of the human rights, a fundamentally secular document that, however, uses the word "sacred" once, not in conjunction with God or Jesus Christ but in conjunction with property:
Article 17: "...the right to Property is inviolable and sacred..."
 
Encourages, or is mandated and enforced by the State? See, I read the term 'wealth redistribution' and all I think about is the government taking my money and giving it to other people. So maybe we ought to define what some of these things mean, because I could very well not be understanding some of the aspects of socialism. I think most people's problems with socialism really come down to more government control over people's lives. We're already decrying the loss of liberty in the West since 9/11. Why would we want a different system that has even more government control over people's decisions?

As I said previously, it's probably not very productive to talk at a practical level of how these systems are implemented today because they are corrupted by pathology, but rather in their 'ideal' implementation. In an ideal scenario socialism would be encouraged or facilitated by the state, i.e. there would be no impediments to people cooperating with others, it would be facilitated and encouraged. To do that, people would have to be free of unnecessary suffering brought on by the selfishness and ruthlessness of others. Again, we're talking about an ideal society here, and in an ideal society I don't think anyone would disagree that a "me first" or "dog eat dog" mentality has no place.
 
But low-end jobs are absolutely crucial for the spiritual advancement and well-being of those stuck at the bottom. Real altruism, then, would be about doing everything to help them, if they want, to get their act together by working a very, very low-end job and taking it from there. Throwing money at them by means of a monstrous beaurocracy is the opposite of that.

It's the complete opposite of real "Service" because it rewards the "bad spirits" and punishes the "virtuous spirits" (meaning those on the low-end who detest being on welfare to the point that they are willing to live an even more miserable life financially just to stand on their own feet).

Why do you think socialism, as we're discussing it here i.e. social democracies like in Europe or Venezuela, involve "throwing money at people from a monstrous bureaucracy? There are welfare queens, yes, but they are not the majority, and most people who benefit from a social welfare system are neither forced to accept handouts only or enjoying life on handouts only. You're presenting things in extreme terms that simply don't apply in real life.

Perhaps think of it like the work of advanced spirits described in the Afterlife thread. How do they go about altruism? Do they reward the "bad spirits"? No, it's a constant reaching out, and once someone takes your hand, an informed guidance on a spiritual level. Enlightenment "benevolence" and "happiness-maximization" on the other hand are disastrous. At best it's a simulation of altruism, an "outsourcing" of altruism to bureaucrats. And arguably, true altruism is neither produced by some "free market making everyone rich & happy" nor by some pseudo-benevolent Utopians.

Really? We're not in 5D, so that analogy does not and will never apply on 3D earth. We have to work within the conditions that prevail on 3D, but I agree that a possible (or even likely) conclusion of such a discussion would be that it is simply not possible to have anything close to a perfect system on earth and that compromises will always have to be made. But the question then is, how far do you compromise, and which 'system' or ideology, in its essence, more easily facilitates excesses that create the greatest amount of unnecessary suffering?

Take "free" healthcare: there is a valid argument to be made against it, because obviously, public "free" healthcare gives the underlying bureaucracy huge power. Which means they can decide what treatments are "allowed" and what aren't. They get easily hijacked by the pharma mafia and other interests. Imagine a system where your local doctors would freely compete and you would pay them cash. I bet that a whole lot more people would try, for example, Vit C treatment for cancer for 200 bucks before they spend 100k on Chemo etc.. Now, of course, there are also good arguments for "free" healthcare for all. But you know what's the worst solution? Replacing the public healthcare system with an oligopoly of private insurers! It's basically the same system as public healthcare, only more expensive for the people AND even less altruistic because those companies are only beholden to their shareholders and therefore must screw you over and cheat you out of your benefits. The very idea is insane!

Contrast US health care with socialized health care in EU countries. Combine that with the capitalist paradigm in the US (that informs human health and perspectives on it) and the more socialistic outlook in EU countries. On the whole, where are people healthier (at least historically, i.e. over the past 70 years) and where do people have better access to basic healthcare. I think we already know the answer to that one.

Or take public education: There is a good "conservative" argument to be made for completely independent schools "competing" with each other. You know, homeschool if you like, send your kids to a religious school, to a science-focussed school, whatever. Freedom and democracy and all that. I like it! Of course, the free public education system also has something going for it. But now combine the worst aspects of both, and what do you get? A system where you have to pay for your school, but the curriculum is still heavily dictated, AND postmodern nonsense, Darwinism etc. is still drilled into children because it has to, homeschooling is either forbidden altogether or extremely regulated/discouraged (can't have parents with anti-Darwinian or anti-Climate Change inclinations teach their kids!) etc. The worst of both worlds!

But we're not talking about combining the worst aspects of both, we're attempting to look at the two competing approaches and determining which one works better for the individual. There's plenty of data on the higher overall levels of education in EU countries where higher education has historically been mostly free, compared to the USA. If a person has been denied the ability to exercise and strengthen their thinking then how can they be truely free, in any domain, if they first and foremost cannot think? Interestingly, it may be generally true that people who most lack thinking abilities are the ones who think themselves the most free, because they more easily programmed to think that because they cannot think hard enough to see through the ruse. Instead, their "thinking" is done for them or through them by way of appeals to emotion.

There are many, many more examples. And I suspect that's part of the reason why people can discuss "socialism vs. capitalism" till the cows come home without a solution. Both are pathological ideas based on horribly wrong assumptions, with each one containing some truths and good points. It's like choosing whether you want to be ruled by a dystopian totalitarian bureaucracy mushing your brain with double-speak or you want to be ruled by a global caste of psycho-capitalists stealing everything and messing with our minds/divide and conquer to stay in power. In fact, both are probably the same types of people. No thanks!

Capitalism and socialism are not, IMO, pathological ideas in essence. They are only pathologized to the extent that we have seen in modern history, particularly the 20th century, by a pathocracy that infects them and twists them to distorted versions of what they are in essence.

Socialism, in essence, is based on Haidt's 'care foundation' and focuses on the group or "greater good". Capitalism is based on Haidt's loyalty and 'ingroup' and 'fairness' foundations and focuses on the individual. As a 'caring' system, socialism requires the input of compassionate, critical thinking humans to modify it so that it does not become totalitarian in its care. As an 'individual' system, capitalism requires the input of compassionate, critical thinking humans so that it does not become ruthless and totalitarian in its promotion of 'individual rights' and materialism. BUT, if you have to choose one or the other, and with the ALL important understanding that human beings themselves are self-serving by nature, which of these approaches would be the more appropriate basis on which to form a society that is made up of materialistic and self-service inclined humans? Do you found your society on the unassailable truth that the holy grail is material possessions and a focus on materialistc self-advancement? Or do you found your society on the basis that cooperation and the good of the community is more important than the good of the individual because if the community thrives then so does the individual? Is the former not similar to telling a person with a drug addiction that drugs are good? And is the latter not similar to telling the same person that drugs are bad? At least, if you want a "spiritual" perspective, I think that is as good as your going to get at the level of the organization of a large society.

It was in a different context, but perhaps this futility/limitations also applies to discussions about "grand systems". Without adding a deeply spiritual element here, based on "STO-knowledge" and experience, how does it make sense to discuss "systems" as if they were cars or factories? (Materialism strikes again!) And how can you separate true spiritual virtues and spiritual development from any such considerations?

The missing piece is a true spiritual element that could save both 'systems' if it were included in them. But notice that true spirituality is pretty much nowhere to be seen in the world today.
 
It's like choosing whether you want to be ruled by a dystopian totalitarian bureaucracy mushing your brain with double-speak or you want to be ruled by a global caste of psycho-capitalists stealing everything and messing with our minds/divide and conquer to stay in power. In fact, both are probably the same types of people. No thanks!

Yes, well that's what's going through my mind as I read through this thread. We've known for a while now that the 'third man' is the main corrupting force in this world. We discussed it during the October conference in 2006, and devised some ways to bring awareness to the issue. And while I think there's been definite progress along that line, it doesn't appear we're any closer to actually being able to do anything about it. And now there's such a clamor of voices out there, most of them spouting nonsense, that the signal to noise ratio is too small to reach hardly anyone. So yeah, it appears pretty futile. We can discuss it till the cows come home, but I think maybe it should be regarded as an exercise of networking to hash it out, gain some clarity, and maybe even learn something new. But not, I think, have any illusions about successfully implementing it in the real world. At least, not as things stand now. OSIT
 
Socialism, in essence, is based on Haidt's 'care foundation' and focuses on the group or "greater good". Capitalism is based on Haidt's loyalty and 'ingroup' and 'fairness' foundations and focuses on the individual.

If I remember correctly from Jonathan Haidt's work, Liberals only care about the Care and Fairness foundations. Conservatives care about all 5 foundations, but Care and Fairness less so than Liberals. Libertarians (whose only ideology is capitalism) have none of the moral foundations, or maybe some slight Fairness. I think libertarians complained enough for Haidt to invent an additional dimension called Liberty for them to score high in. I thought that was kind of questionable methodologically speaking.

The missing piece is a true spiritual element that could save both 'systems' if it were included in them. But notice that true spirituality is pretty much nowhere to be seen in the world today.

Do you think Russia would be a good example of that? I find it kind of interesting because my own understanding sees "true spirituality" as a necessarily local, lived phenomenon where people build these bonds from the ground up. I guess a good leader who lives by example can also serve as a role model for a nation as well.
 
Socialism, in essence, is based on Haidt's 'care foundation' and focuses on the group or "greater good". Capitalism is based on Haidt's loyalty and 'ingroup' and 'fairness' foundations and focuses on the individual. As a 'caring' system, socialism requires the input of compassionate, critical thinking humans to modify it so that it does not become totalitarian in its care. As an 'individual' system, capitalism requires the input of compassionate, critical thinking humans so that it does not become ruthless and totalitarian in its promotion of 'individual rights' and materialism. BUT, if you have to choose one or the other, and with the ALL important understanding that human beings themselves are self-serving by nature, which of these approaches would be the more appropriate basis on which to form a society that is made up of materialistic and self-service inclined humans? Do you found your society on the unassailable truth that the holy grail is material possessions and a focus on materialistc self-advancement? Or do you found your society on the basis that cooperation and the good of the community is more important than the good of the individual because if the community thrives then so does the individual? Is the former not similar to telling a person with a drug addiction that drugs are good? And is the latter not similar to telling the same person that drugs are bad? At least, if you want a "spiritual" perspective, I think that is as good as your going to get at the level of the organization of a large society.

The missing piece is a true spiritual element that could save both 'systems' if it were included in them. But notice that true spirituality is pretty much nowhere to be seen in the world today.

This makes sense to me. I guess my thinking was that because of this lack of "true spirituality", these systems cannot work either way, and that yes indeed, were it there, both systems could work, and that that is the crux. But let me try to think your point through.

Seeing socialism as a reaction to enlightenment-materialism-Darwinism-inspired dog-eat-dogging, the socialist impulse was right: the world isn't just dog-eat-dog, and we should care about the vulnerable, the lower classes etc. It's also the case that postmodernism is a similar reaction to enlightenment-materialism: no, we aren't just biological programs or Darwinian creatures, there's more to life than "rational choice" and so on. We should be better than that. This was the initial motivation I think, and there's truth to that obviously.

So if we forget for a moment about the corrupted elements in socialism, at least we can say that the general impulse was on track: to oppose materialistic dog-eat-dogging, and to promote a more community-oriented approach. As you said, you don't give drug-addicts more drugs.

Perhaps then, what we see in the SJW and other pathological socialist excesses, could be seen as a consequence of the same self-serving "drug" that it's supposed to battle. It's interesting that the US is the headquarter of SJWism: it kind of grew out of the dog-eat-dog mindset, finding in French postmodern thinking its perfect, pathological companion. Following your reasoning here, perhaps the very lack of education brought about by the worship of capital has contributed as well - peeps are just too uneducated to counter such toxic ideas and just revel in their selfishness - openly expressed, as in capitalist dog-eat-doggers, or implicit as in SJW narcissists.

Now regarding specific policies, perhaps your argument could be made even stronger if we don't ascribe some things European "third way" socialism has got right purely to policies, but to cultural factors as well - namely the "socialist impulse" that there is more to life than dog-eat-dog and profit. Perhaps those cultures, like France and Germany, value education - and non-utilitaristic education in particular - more highly. Perhaps they also value Haidt's care foundation more highly. It's a cliché in Europe, but perhaps there is some truth to it: that the US in particular has less noble values than Europe, i.e. more greed, consumerism, fixation on money, dog-eat-dog.

As for countries like Venezuela and Qaddafi's Libya and the like, it's foremost an attempt to have the population participate in the oil riches, as opposed to shoveling everything to Switzerland. Good thing. Perhaps there are also values involved, such as a positive nationalist vision for the country based on participation and community.

Now, as you implied, the conservative/"capitalist" vision, at its best, is that of a society of enlightened/virtuous individuals, forming a great society based on shared values. It's a nice vision, only individuals are far from enlightened. The socialist vision is one of an enlightened/virtuous leadership, grounded in the will of all people. Again, it's a nice vision, but leaderships are easily corrupted and far from enlightened.

However, following this line of reasoning, perhaps we could say socialism is the more realistic vision, because it's at least theoretically possible to have a virtuous leadership, as opposed to a population of virtuous individuals. And if you have such a leadership, at least to some degree, like Putin's Russia for example, then this virtuous leadership can "pull up" the entire country. It's pulling the drug addicts out of their addiction, in your analogy.

Which brings us back to the times before the enlightenment and to the feudal system. For all its flaws (it is despised both by capitalists and socialists), it also had something going for it: the noble class was called that for a reason. There was a huge emphasis on nobility in the ethical sense for the nobles. They didn't justify their special status just based on property, like the capitalists, but their being role models/closer to God. Same for the priests of course. So to the degree that at least some of them actually were like that, you had a virtuous leadership, and with that an antidote to the self-serving drug-addiction. In a sense, socialism could be seen as an attempt to rescue some of that in the post-enlightenment era.

Thinking about the pre-enlightenment system, which is generally derided as "authoritarian" and "undemocratic" and all that is also interesting, because all of today's leaders who don't fall in line with the global capitalists are called "authoritarian" and "undemocratic". And in some sense they are - they are strong, have a strong "spiritual" vision, and are uncompromising in their leadership. They also won't allow pseudo-democratic attempts to undermine them such as propping up capitalist-friendly opposition leaders. To the dismay of the "freedom and democracy" capitalists, their people generally love them for that.

Anyway, just tried to think through what you said a bit.
 
Seeing socialism as a reaction to enlightenment-materialism-Darwinism-inspired dog-eat-dogging, the socialist impulse was right: the world isn't just dog-eat-dog, and we should care about the vulnerable,
Or maybe enlightenment/capitalism was a reaction to the prevailing system that was in place before. Indeed the closest application I know of socialism is what I read about France before the revolution or even better before the enlightenment.

It's during and after the enlightenment that capitalism (Adam Smith around 1750) and marxism (around 1850) were fully developed and implemented as the individualistic and the collectivist sides of the same atheist coin.

But before that, and for several centuries (1300 to 1650 approximately) a form of socialism prevailed: there was trade, private property including land and farms, no serf in most regions, education was free and administered by the church, flat reasonable taxation, very strong communities centered around church congregations i.e. villages and families, free healthcare in the form of hospices administered by the church, support for the poor coming from the church charity and alms, children were not working instead they followed apprenticeship organized by guilds.

There was not much capitalism because most people lived from their own labor while bartering and lending commodities were prevailing. The few ones of used and borrowed money (mostly gold and silver) were kings in order to fund wars.

Which brings us back to the times before the enlightenment and to the feudal system. For all its flaws (it is despised both by capitalists and socialists), it also had something going for it: the noble class was called that for a reason. There was a huge emphasis on nobility in the ethical sense for the nobles. They didn't justify their special status just based on property, like the capitalists, but their being role models/closer to God. Same for the priests of course. So to the degree that at least some of them actually were like that, you had a virtuous leadership, and with that an antidote to the self-serving drug-addiction. In a sense, socialism could be seen as an attempt to rescue some of that in the post-enlightenment era.

Exactly!!!

The pre-enlightnment era was a powerful combination of socialism and religiosity, embodied by the clergy, led by the Pope, alleged descendant of St Peter and the nobility, led by the king of divine right, who, like any other children of God had to conform to the "natural and divine laws". Thus the royal temporal laws were subjected to the spiritual laws (religious morality).

The clergy and the nobility formed the medieval religious state and administered education and healthcare for the former and protection for the latter while the rest of the population composed mostly of farmers produced food but were however multi-skilled and also built farms, sew clothes, build tools and furniture...

Unlike what is usually written about the Middle Age there was little conflict between those three classes. This relative harmony was due to several factors:
  • the society was quite egalitarian, most local nobles and the local clergy were not much richer than the farmers. Notice though that in this time period, starvation was quite rare (it picked up during the 18th with the liberalization of the price of wheat)
  • the cohesion was very strong because of the religiosity shared by the whole population (same ideals, same beliefs, same sovereign, same religious morality...)
  • the community was more important than the individual. The basic social unit was the family/house (same word for both). The village was the other social unit and included farmers, local clergy and local nobility together.
  • in this deeply religious and sometimes superstitious and/or intolerant era, material gain or profit were rarely pursued. It was often the contrary since Catholicism, unlike Protestantism, tended to warn against the riches of this world and rather recommend the riches of God's kingdom.
Much could be said about this topic but this post is getting rather long.

I know that the above can come across as awkward since the middle age is depicted so systematically as such a dark age. I'm not saying it was perfect but that is the unexpected picture I got from this period by reading various books, the latest one being "Montaillou, an occitan village 1294-1324". I mention it because it's based on hundreds of testimonies by local villagers "thanks" to the inquisitor of the time, Fournier, who interrogated the villagers and wrote down their testimonies over a period of 30 years.
 
I know that the above can come across as awkward since the middle age is depicted so systematically as such a dark age. I'm not saying it was perfect but that is the unexpected picture I got from this period by reading various books, the latest one being "Montaillou, an occitan village 1294-1324". I mention it because it's based on hundreds of testimonies by local villagers "thanks" to the inquisitor of the time, Fournier, who interrogated the villagers and wrote down their testimonies over a period of 30 years.

That's one of the best ways to get real history: read legal documents, tax records, wills, etc. Doing genealogy, I've sure been digging into the original sources; I recently read literally hundreds of wills, abstracting them as I went along and then hundreds and hundreds of pages of court documents. And then hundreds of pages of parish registers. It's just amazing what you learn that way.
 
I know that the above can come across as awkward since the middle age is depicted so systematically as such a dark age. I'm not saying it was perfect but that is the unexpected picture I got from this period by reading various books, the latest one being "Montaillou, an occitan village 1294-1324". I mention it because it's based on hundreds of testimonies by local villagers "thanks" to the inquisitor of the time, Fournier, who interrogated the villagers and wrote down their testimonies over a period of 30 years.

Now, that's really funny, because I read this book too, because it was in the library of my paternal grand-parents (with Whoever fights monsters, yes !!!) which we shared after the death of my grand-mother - and when I was reading it I thought I must give it to you because I was somewhat sure it would interest you ! It was just a couple monthes ago. OK, I disappear, because I disgress from the main topic !
 
I know that the above can come across as awkward since the middle age is depicted so systematically as such a dark age. I'm not saying it was perfect but that is the unexpected picture I got from this period by reading various books, the latest one being "Montaillou, an occitan village 1294-1324". I mention it because it's based on hundreds of testimonies by local villagers "thanks" to the inquisitor of the time, Fournier, who interrogated the villagers and wrote down their testimonies over a period of 30 years.

I don't think this comes across as awkward. I haven't done all the historical research, but just reading about all those simplistic enlightenment ideas and realizing how "flat" they are once you kick them off their pedestal, and extrapolating a bit from my own experiences living in a village, I came to think that so much was actually lost during that most strange period. We are so conditioned with enlightenment thinking that we often don't even realize it. For example, the very thought to be a member of a class and having no way of becoming say a nobleman strikes us as "unfair". But people in the past didn't think so at all, partly because they thought about such things in religious terms. And if you think of life as a school, believe that life continues after death and so on, such things suddenly become less important. Even as a peasant you can strive towards God...
 
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