Capitalism and Socialism: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

I've had this same question myself. At big part of the answer would seem to be ratings: Carlson had the third most seen cable news show only behind Rachel Maddow (if you can believe it :umm: ) and Sean Hannity, in 2018. This means that he brings in A LOT of revenue for Fox - which motivates them to keep him on with as little fuss as possible. But it also says something about the large segment of the US population that values, and is empowering, his on-going analysis. And thank goodness for that. Having said this, and given the incredible upswing in insane news coverage, I fear it is only a matter of time before he is made to lose his platform under some bogus pretext or another.


Yes, I'm inclined to agree with you. It seems to be accepted that you can slag off both sides of the political divide and any combination thereof. As long as you steer clear of the ''touchy subject''. i.e Israel you're clear to go.
 
I fear it is only a matter of time before he is made to lose his platform under some bogus pretext or another.

I think many of us have those kinds of fears and I think it may be a kind of PTSD from living in an STS world. It's like Laura's question to the Cs about "living in two worlds".

Session 15 October 2016:
Q: (L) So expanding awareness is like walking between two worlds, being aware of alternate realities or something?

A: Yes

At least we see two worlds to compare the differences. Tucker Carlson (like Jordan Peterson) stands out to us in such contrast that most of us cannot help but notice. He gives a view of reality that many times resonates with ours. At least some possibilities are presented that would otherwise be lost.

A recent SOTT article talks about him.

True conservative: Tucker Carlson shreds RussiaHoax, says Venezuela regime change betrays MAGA, interviews Tulsi Gabbard
People outside the US mostly don't realize that there are some good things happening in the American big media space. Carlson is the best example, but Fox's Sean Hannity and Laura Ingraham also have much to commend them. Watch this space for more, as long as the Tuck keeps it up.

I don't see why we cannot at least wish him godspeed.
 
About 20% of Americans still don't have health care coverage. That is to say, when they are ill, they have to seriously consider just not going to a clinic or hospital or doctor to get their illness treated because the cost is so exhoribant that they simply cannot pay it. They just have to live with it. That fact is, IMO, a direct result of the 'American way', i.e. capitalism and the core 'me first' idea that it espouses. In most European countries, the entire population would be up in arms if they discovered that millions of people were unable to get access to medical treatment. In the USA however, the 'survival of the fittest' paradigm encourages people to turn a blind eye and bullshit themselves that the person in question simply isn't working hard enough.

I agree that the healthcare situation in the US leaves a lot to be desired. We do have a few policies that address what you're mentioning above. There is what's called a "no turn-away" policy that takes into account emergencies or sick people in general. It basically states that you cannot refuse to treat patients for lack of insurance, especially in emergency situations.

There are free clinics but they are typically geared towards a certain demographic and usually have a sliding scale of subsidization; ergo, if you make more than a certain amount, you will pay some money compared to other patrons that cannot pay at all.

Medicaid is also an option. According to wikipedia, it supports about 23% of the American population as of 2017. Again this is wikipedia here so take that for what it's worth. I understand the above doesn't insure everyone will get care and certainly not the "best" care possible but i'm just adding more information to the pot here. Obviously this situation is not ideal because not all GPs accept medicaid so choice is a bit constricted.

I remember being faced with a fine during the Obama administration a few years ago because I didn't actually have health insurance. So there's that also. At that time we didn't qualify for medicaid because we made too much money but also didn't receive coverage from our (my wife and I) jobs. Basically, there is a system in place but it still misses what I would deem a large swath of the population. And by misses, I mean you may be able to get some form of care without insurance but it will be of the "symptom coverup" variety which is not holistic. However, I attribute that to Big Pharma and the medical industry which are monopolies and not the result of a free-market.

I'm curious about the 20% stat you mentioned now though. When sitting down to respond it was definitely going to be in the affirmative regarding low income citizens not having access to health care. But It seems like the policies actually miss more of the middle class based on a brief search.
 
Obviously. That's what I do in my business. The problem with such statements is that they are trivial. Nobody is arguing that businesses are inherently evil or something like that. It's about going way too far with "free market" thinking that seems to be tied to a Darwinian, materialist, "selfish-theory" outlook on life. And this can screw up the value system in a society. Part of that is rewarding the wrong kinds of actions/people.

Ok, can you point out in my post instances of going too far with free-market thinking? I don't think I'm advocating that capitalism is the best and should be used in all aspects of society. I even state towards the end that an ideal situation probably includes bits and pieces from different systems.

Monopolies and oligopolies may be a small subset in terms of their numbers of companies, but that's by definition the case. However, their monetary worth and might is staggering. Think of Big Banking, internet giants, Big Oil and the like. To talk about anything resembling a "free market" there is quite the stretch.

That's exactly my point. Monopolies are not representative or products of a free-market.

But is it an "economic framework" or is it a whole package of ideas, a whole philosophy and outlook on life? And isn't the idea of a "free market" way too simplistic, given the complexity and many facets of life, human interactions, relations etc.?

It's an economic framework. But I don't think I understand your point here. Could you elaborate?

There is such a thing as supporting local for the sake of local or because you have rapport. That's still a free-market. Also markets are not a uni-dimensional construct that abides by profit alone. In you're example there is social bond. However, you can sell something identical to another company in the same sector and provide superior customer service and actually pull customers away from a goliath competitor.
One of the tricks of free-marketeers is to oscillate between proposing an obviously wrong theory ("homo economicus") and then, once they get criticized, just revert to trivialities. What I mean is that if by a "free market" you just mean that you are not forced into tight guilds or communist collectives, then OK, but it seems free market as an ideology goes way beyond that. For example, it posits that a "free market" always produces better products, economic growth, great companies, technological development etc. But if people are not only about "choosing the best product at the best price", or if business transactions generally are not only about "rational choice", how so? And to the degree that capitalism arguably produces such great results, are there other reasons for it? Etc. And again, let's not forget the influence such ideologies have on ethics and values.

I'm having a hard time understanding how this response relates to what you quoted so I will make do with what I think you are saying. Homo economicus states that humans will make the most rational choice when participating as consumers of a market. I'm going to substitute optimal for rational because I believe that is more in line with what you are getting at.

People/consumers making the most optimal decision when engaging a market doesn't matter. I like free-markets because they provide options as well as a platform for you to add your own contribution to said market. Yes, markets can and do promote innovations as there will be a subset of the population that "want the best" but that is not the sole purpose of a market. I think that's our main point of contention. In a market you can appeal to a different subset of the population that prefers, lets say, better customer service, additional colors, or a different delivery method. Those are additional options that add value and may appeal to a different type of customer. Without the additional producer, one is left hoping a single dominate producer deems their specific wants worth the effort.

Similar for the homo economicus and rational choice: the theory is completely absurd. But what its proponents do once you point that out is that they say "but even if you act out of feeling, community sense, loyalty etc. that's still a rational choice". This is just meaningless. It's like saying "people do something because they are motivated to do something".

Call me crazy but those are all legitimate and rational choices. Can you explain how that's meaningless because rationale just means you have a reason for doing something. Irrational choices mean you did something that wouldn't make sense given the situation. It makes perfect sense to go to a friend's shop for abstract, dare I say, non-materialistic reasons.

But at what point are we vying to re-architect the school? There are probably certain lessons to be had in a state of poverty that you couldn't get elsewhere.

For sure, but that's a dangerous line of thought. It's like the karma argument - when someone is suffering, he had it coming. Well, perhaps. But that's kind of lazy. The better approach would be to help those in need in an informed way, looking at the details and so on. There is such a thing as undeserved poverty, needless suffering and so on. And if you want to be cynical about it, at least you could say if you "pay those at the bottom off", they won't start a revolution and destroy the whole school.

I agree. I felt a bit dirty writing it and definitely realize it's a slippery slope. The bit about informed decisions is important albeit difficult to pull off at times.

It doesn't matter that much whether you have any chance or not in reaching these figures (though I think the story of the self-made billionaire is kind of oversold - it's incredibly unlikely, no matter how hard you work). The deeper question is whether there is any correlation between wealth and work/virtue. If that correlation gets screwed up too much, then this produces lots of (justified) resentment and the society isn't healthy. If one guy earns 10/h, and another one 10.000/h, this essentially means that the latter guy's hour is considered 1000 times more valuable than the first one's.

Let's take Billionaire status off the table and speak strictly about Millionaires. There's probably a slight correlation with actual work ethic, a strong correlation with productive habits, and an extreme correlation with persistence. I think we all agree that most people can and do work hard just to maintain existence. A small foray into how some entrepreneurs attained success lead to the realization that they actually fail more often than not when it comes to business ventures. It's pretty common to see multiple failed businesses before they have a success. The only thing is, usually the success is large enough to dwarf the prior failures.

So being resentful or not, the truth is most people are afraid to fail and do not embark on business ventures at all. That's totally fine but imo the resent is usually misguided.

You might say, if he's a guy providing thousands of jobs, that this is justified. But I dunno. Does he really do that much more/better work? That seems impossible. Is at least the effect of his work (jobs etc.) worth the massive inequality? Maybe. But then again, if Bezos wouldn't run Amazon, the business would go to other shops, or someone else might have come up with something like Amazon. It's really hard to say

You're still assuming there is an inequality where there needn't be.
 
@trendsetter37, perhaps just consider my post you quoted as an intermediate step, trying to formulate some thoughts that led me to the above conclusion about values and remembering Tucker's words that express it better than I ever could have.

Just let me elaborate on one point that I think is important. "Free market capitalism" is rooted in a whole philosophical/economic framework, namely neoclassical economics and homo economicus ("rational choice theory"). There's a specific view of human nature attached to it: humans as selfish, rational actors maximizing their payoffs, roughly speaking.

Now you could say that this philosophical underpinning can be separated from just being for "free markets", and that may be right. But just as Darwinism (random mutation + natural selection) could be separated from atheism, materialism, nihilism, social Darwinism and so on, this is not how it plays out in the real world. It's a whole package deal that can be only described as toxic and that shapes our thinking and culture, often unconsciously.

Just as with Darwinism, the apparent wrongness of the neoclassical theory and its predictions is constantly "patched up" with ever more additions, redefinitions etc. that make it incoherent. For example, "rational choice" is redefined from purely monetary payoffs to all kinds of "payoffs" such as good feelings, group cohesion, love for the country etc. etc. But then one might ask: what IS the theory saying, really? Just as with the "selfish genes" theory, proponents oscillate between shocking, but wrong statements ("you might not like it, but all you ever do is selfishly maximize profit! That's how humans are!") and trivial ones that contradict the first proposition ("of course it's not only about money, your payoff can also just be feeling good about helping someone!"). The net effect of such convoluted thinking though is to anchor in us the vague notion that we are all about selfishly maximizing money.

You can see how this plays out in real life when governments or companies use monetary incentives to steer people in this or that direction. But it often doesn't work. For example, here's one such "patch" to neoclassical economics, Motivation crowding theory:

In psychology and microeconomics, motivation crowding theory describes the observation that providing extrinsic incentives for certain kinds of behavior—such as promising monetary rewards for accomplishing some task—can sometimes undermine intrinsic motivation for doing that behavior. The result of lowered motivation, opposite the predictions of neoclassical economics, can be an overall decrease in the total amount of that behavior produced. For example, one study found that paying people to collect charitable donations actually caused them to collect fewer donations.[1]
...
Through the debate, consensus seems to have emerged that crowding out reliably occurs if the following conditions are met:[30]
  • Rewards are offered in the context of pre-existing intrinsic motivation (e.g. in a prosocial setting or for interesting tasks).[31]
  • Rewards are known in advance and expected.
  • Rewards are tangible.
  • Rewards are conditional on task engagement.
  • Rewards can be interpreted by the agent and/or observers as controlling.

Such findings completely undermine neoclassical assumptions and have huge implications for how to design welfare systems, how to organize incentive structures in corporations etc.

If you watch Tucker Carlson's video above, you can see how this "philosophical package" plays out as well: "yes, investment firms are wrecking havoc with society, but who cares? It's just the free market playing out; these firms are just maximizing profits as it should be, because it's in human nature, and a competition of selfish profit-maximizers will always produce great economic results". But as Tucker says: "OK, but it's still disgusting!" Again, the question is - what do we value more? Common sense and human decency or some pet economic theory?

It's really interesting by the way to note the parallels between neo-Darwinism and neoclassical economic theory. In both cases, you have a "modern synthesis", both seem intertwined in their assumptions about human nature, both are kind of sacrosanct and acts of faith for many scientists, and both have a very bad influence on our souls, our societies and our culture, as far as I can tell.
 
I think part of the problem is that we have such a huge spectrum of STO to STS tendencies in the world, so I tend to agree with Joe that a sort of mix is probably the best we can do, realistically. Otherwise you'd almost have to separate humans into camps based on their FRV and have each camp design a system that works for its inclinations. Imagine a prison yard full of prisoners, flood it with a bunch of loving giving people (and their grandmas), even if they outnumber the prisoners, and then try to come up with an economic system that works for everyone in the yard.

It's hard - the prisoners and STS in general will try to take and take, prefer capitalism and dominance hierarchies. If you let them run the show, the "good guys and their grandmas" will not be competitive easily, and would have to either get together to out-number and overpower them (so compete on their terms in a sense), and protect themselves, or be dominated. This is how we get things like "police" and "unions" and "governments" and "legal system" - it's an attempt by the general population (before those systems are also subverted) to reign in the more STS elements of society. Unfortunately all such attempts are either illusory or futile, because there are/were too many loop-holes and we end up being dominated by psychopaths anyway, while maintaining the illusion that all these measures are still there doing their part, to prevent an open revolt (which is a natural consequence when people perceive that their other measures failed). So perception management becomes necessary.

Another issue is that even within the same person, you have STS and STO tendencies on a spectrum. Sometimes people want to trade and be capitalistic, other times they're more willing to give more freely, it just depends on their mood, their practical situation, etc.

All in all - I think this is why in 4D, STO and STS are mostly separated - there's just no economic or social system that could allow both to co-exist in the same society in a workable way. We don't have that extreme difference on this planet, but being a microcosm, we have it enough to already see the fruitlessness of making something work for everyone. The more collinear we are as a group, the easier and more streamlined the system needs to be. Pure STS have internal and external conflicts as people try to move up and down in ranks or dominate other entities, but they all accept that they're STS, and understand that their world is designed to cater to it. Pure STO would not need an institutionalized system, except as some kind of contingency to protect against STS infiltration/invasion perhaps. I suppose nothing is a "closed system" - like it or not, you'll be running into "the other side" in some shape or form, and need to be prepared, whatever it takes.

But we cannot have a "fair" or "good" system as long as we have such a huge mix of dispositions. The STO-leaning group will try to go more socialist and try to create systems to impose limits on STS types. But STS types will always look for loopholes and ways to gain power anyway, and deceive the STO-leaning types that their systems are working. So it'll be a constant tug of war as long as we're in this situation, I think.

One thing to remember is also that STO is service to self through others. If you have a forced redistribution of wealth, it's kinda taking by force preventing the "self" part from happening, and also giving to those who don't contribute. A socialist system can't work unless everyone is trying to work together. As long as you have STS elements you're asking to be subverted without protective mechanisms.
 
If you watch Tucker Carlson's video above, you can see how this "philosophical package" plays out as well: "yes, investment firms are wrecking havoc with society, but who cares? It's just the free market playing out; these firms are just maximizing profits as it should be, because it's in human nature, and a competition of selfish profit-maximizers will always produce great economic results". But as Tucker says: "OK, but it's still disgusting!" Again, the question is - what do we value more? Common sense and human decency or some pet economic theory?

Yeah I watched it last night and was quite blown away. He speaks with such clarity and insight it makes things that we could feel were off glaringly obvious. Like when he talked about how absurd and dangerous it is to say we need to serve the market economy instead of the reverse; the market economy should be serving us. Duh! Some here are questioning how it is he's allowed to say such things to such a wide audience. The reality, I think, is that he's just one voice amongst a chorus of idiots and paid shills. What he says is soon forgotten or lost in a sea of noise. No doubt some have really heard him, but what will they do? What can they do? Maybe they (PTB) allow it because it's calculated to help maintain the illusion that this is somehow the same country it always was or was supposed to be.
 
Here's an interesting article originally published on Quillette that advocates for the introduction of a $1,000 monthly universal basic income in the US in response to the impending proliferation of AI and automation that is projected to cause massive job displacement in the next decade. This is a proposal by 2020 presidential candidate Andrew Yang, who recently was on Joe Rogan's show. Even though I immediately shudder at the thought of such an idea without any kind of control at the borders, it makes a compelling case and thought I'd share here to see what others think.

We should replace the ragbag of specific welfare programs with a single comprehensive program of income supplements in cash - a negative income tax. It would provide an assured minimum to all persons in need, regardless of the reasons for their need...A negative income tax provides comprehensive reform which would do more efficiently and humanely what our present welfare system does so inefficiently and inhumanely.
~Milton Friedman
I get emotional about facts.
~Andrew Yang
Although we are still a long way from the 2020 presidential campaigns, whispers of who the Democratic candidates will be and what policy platforms will be adopted is steadily droning into an orchestra. We can already predict some of the names that are likely to appear on the ballot sheet and the talking points that will be heard on the campaign trail, and it would not be imprudent to suspect the upcoming election will be even uglier and more contentious than the last.

While the overwhelming majority of political pundits seem to be pouring their energies into slamming the current president-criticizing old models rather than conjuring new ones-many are wondering what will be left standing in the wake of yet another crashing political wave.

Onto the scene struts presidential candidate and serial entrepreneur Andrew Yang, whose growing popularity was recently capped with an appearance on Joe Rogan's herculean podcast. The reception was overwhelmingly positive. Yang is running on a Universal Basic Income platform, a policy proposal whereby $1000 dollars a month will be allocated to every U.S. citizen, in response to the impending proliferation of Artificial Intelligence and automation that is projected to cause massive job displacement in the next decade.

There are reasonable arguments to be leveled in good faith against the UBI platform, which Yang has dubbed "The Freedom Dividend," but what was once considered a utopian pipedream is beginning to sound more plausible in light of the unfolding tectonic economic and technological shifts. At a minimum, it is well worth digesting Yang's diagnosis of the problem in detail, whether or not we agree with his solution.

We are in the third inning of what Yang calls "The Great Displacement." Between 2000 and 2015, America automated away 4 million manufacturing jobs (four times the amount lost to globalization), many of which were in swing states Donald Trump won in the 2016 election. Many more jobs are projected to disappear in the transportation, retail, call center, food service, and even clerical and administrative sectors due to the ongoing advances in autonomous technologies. The wave is coming. A report published during Obama's final days in office predicted that 83 percent of jobs where people make less than $20 an hour will be subject to automation or replacement in the near future, and between 2.2 and 3.1 million driving jobs in the US will be eliminated by the advent of self-driving vehicles.

To make matters worse, the projections for job loss due to automation are pretty consistent across the board-coalescing at about 20-30 percent of jobs being subject to automation by 2030 among various research and financial institutions (Bain Capital, McKinsey, MIT)-which means the projections are probably accurate. All the while, GDP has risen over 3 trillion dollars in the last few years amidst these vast technological developments. En masse, America is the richest country in the world.

To add insult to injury, the American economy is less dynamic than ever before. The job participation rate is at 62.9 percent today, below nearly all other industrialized economies. People are less and less inclined to start a business, with 100,000 fewer businesses sprouting up per year than was the rate just 12 years ago. Furthermore, 59 percent of American counties watched more businesses close than open between 2010 and 2014. Americans move from state to state and change jobs at lower rates than at any point in the last few decades. A Bankrate survey conducted in 2017 found that 57 percent of Americans don't have enough savings to pay an unexpected bill of 500 dollars. Meanwhile, drug overdoses have risen above car accidents as the most likely accidental cause of death for Americans, and suicide has risen so sharply that it has actually lowered the national life expectancy rate. The decay and despair is palpable to anyone who walks around an American city not handsomely nestled in a coastal bubble.

So why is basic income the answer to these problems? The Freedom Dividend is not Yang's only proposed solution, in fact he has 75 other policy initiatives listed on his website including remodulating our measurements of GDP and instituting digital social credits as a local currency. But UBI is central to his campaign, proposed with the intention of giving American citizens much needed fiscal breathing room and making the requisite adjustments to the massive technological and economic transformation on the horizon. One thing is clear: We cannot continue on our present course without addressing "The Great Displacement" in some shape or form through public policy, and there is little evidence to suggest the market will spontaneously adjust to these immense changes.

There are three major critiques of Universal Basic Income: Cost, Inflation, and Incentive.

To provide 1000 dollars a month to every American citizen today, the headline cost would be about $2.4 trillion a year. The federal budget is around $4 trillion a year, distributed between mandatory spending (i.e. Social Security and Medicare-about $2.4 trillion), discretionary spending (i.e. military programs-about $1.11 trillion), and interest on federal debt (about $364 billion). With that in mind, $2.4 trillion sounds pretty steep.

But there are other avenues through which UBI could be paid for. If the gains from artificial intelligence and new technologies were harnessed, there would be a surplus of wealth to invest into the economy. Yang has proposed instituting a value added tax on all goods and services, at every level of production and distribution, putting the onus on large companies who benefit most from automation.

This is estimated to generate almost $1 trillion in national revenue, and when we take into account the $800 billion spent on welfare that would decrease in the wake of UBI, along with the tax revenue generated from the extra $1000 a month circulating back into the economy and the 100s of billions that would be saved in healthcare, incarceration, and homelessness services, the Freedom Dividend could end up paying for itself. That is not to mention the potential value gains from having a population with higher rates of education, health, nutrition, and productivity that are estimated to improve with UBI according to a number of studies on already existent trial runs. (The state of Alaska, the leading example, instituted a dividend for its citizens over 30 years ago primarily funded by oil money, and Yang is quick to note that technology is the oil of the twenty-first century.)

That is optimistic. Allocating funds from the myriad social programs already in place into a UBI could prove to be a dicey process, and taxing powerful corporations has never been child's play. Another issue often brought up against a UBI platform is the prospect of inflation. If more wealth is being distributed across the population, won't that make for increased prices and lead to a decrease in the value of money?

According to Yang, inflation has been low for years because globalization and technology have been helping reduce the cost of goods and services, and there is no good reason to believe that trend wont continue. Even after the 2008 financial crisis, when the U.S. government printed $4 trillion, we have not seen a meaningful rise in inflation. If the Freedom Dividend were indeed able to pay for itself through a value added tax, the liquidation of other social services, and a general stimulation of the economy (the Roosevelt Institute estimates economic growth of about 13 percent and an increase in the labor force by about 4.5 million people), the money supply circulating in society would not increase substantially. This would produce little to no inflation. Yang also points out that the central areas of inflation tend to fall into the protected dysfunctional markets of housing, health care, and education rather than consumer goods where prices are actually falling.

Finally, one of the most common and reflexive arguments leveled against UBI is that it mirrors the fundamental flaw of the Welfare State: the absence of a stable incentive structure. If every American citizen is going to receive free money with not a single qualification or requirement, won't we all just become more lazy? I find this to be the least compelling argument against UBI, largely because it fails to acknowledge the actual problem with welfare policies. The issue with welfare is not that it creates no incentive, it is that it creates a disincentive. If a person is on disability, for example, getting better would mean getting off the dole, so there is actually an incentive not to re-enter the job market. If a single mother is on welfare and bringing a husband into the picture will suspend that monthly check, then she will be less inclined to find a husband. It is subtle shift in one's thought process that enhances an underlying feeling of dependency. The issue with welfare is not that it's free money; the issue is that the requirements necessary to receive welfare benefits tend to reward failure and punish success.

Of course, there are always going to be lazy people who will take advantage of a free lunch, but that is entirely on them. $1000 a month is not enough to incentivize people to leave their jobs. Human beings are more forward thinking and goal-oriented when there is hope for a better future, and that is harder to come by when we are drowning in bills and stress. People who are uncertain of the future and insecure in the present are not going to be the ones starting a business. A number of studies have shown how the prospect of an unpaid bill can lower IQ and shorten our cognitive bandwidth. It is generally those people who are already financially secure who are more inclined to take an entrepreneurial risk. So, there is more reason to believe a UBI will create a positive incentive structure than a negative one. At the very least, it should not have much effect on incentive at all and will largely reflect things as they already are.

This is not a silver bullet. But what I like most about Andrew Yang and his presidential campaign is that he is approaching modern problems with modern solutions while other candidates either grasp onto an idealized past or dredge up historical grievance. He breaks through the capitalism/socialism paradigm with ideas that could be placed on either side of the aisle, bolstering entrepreneurialism and economic development while also offering aid and support to those who have been caught in the tailwind of the market. His rapidly growing popularity is a testament to his humanist approach to politics and the growing disdain among the American public towards media polarization and identity politics promulgated by the elite stratospheres of society. The silent majority is being roused into consciousness. And that is a good thing.
 
Here's an interesting article originally published on Quillette that advocates for the introduction of a $1,000 monthly universal basic income in the US in response to the impending proliferation of AI and automation that is projected to cause massive job displacement in the next decade. This is a proposal by 2020 presidential candidate Andrew Yang, who recently was on Joe Rogan's show. Even though I immediately shudder at the thought of such an idea without any kind of control at the borders, it makes a compelling case and thought I'd share here to see what others think.

My issue with UBI is that those who depend on it, especially if jobs are scarce, will think twice before biting the hand that feeds them. Who would question/criticize the government when their income can be taken away at a moment's notice? I'm sure the government will have a list of people exempted from UBI - certain crimes, accusation/suspicion of terrorism/inciting panic, and other potentially trumped-up charges. Imagine peacefully protesting, and an agent provocateur throwing a bottle at police resulting in crowd suppression techniques, and face-id cameras etc identify you as being part of a violent mob. Boom, there goes your livelihood - who would protest then?

I don't really have an alternative though - automation/AI is a runaway train, and it's just a matter of time before massive unemployment will have to be addressed, and chances are, some form of welfare/UBI will be the solution. But the downsides are Orwellian. To save costs from the logistical/distribution overhead and make it efficient, they may even mandate that it be electronic, and require everyone to have a federal account tied to a RFID chip in a debit-card or embedded under the skin.

Capitalism cannot survive automation, when the jobs go away without making new ones. And unfortunately, the kind of socialism that develops is top-down - the governments and the mega-rich who reap the profits from their automated industries will decide who gets to eat, because at that point the masses really do become "useless eaters". And that would be the time I'd consider depopulation as a viable conspiracy, when they no longer need us to keep the economy going and producing all the things.

I can't think of a way out of this dystopian situation, not without a complete restructuring of the economic/political machine where the robots/automation are under the control of the population somehow, without a middleman fatcat or government, and we all reap the benefits. Otherwise I kinda see "useless eater camps" in the future..
 
Quoting some lines from Ra material that could cover current global divisions:

Questioner: How would conventional warfare offer the opportunities for seeking and service?


Ra: I am Ra. The possibility/probabilities exist for situations in which great portions of your continent and the globe in general might be involved in the type of warfare which you might liken to guerrilla warfare. The ideal of freedom from the so-called invading force of either the controlled fascism or the equally controlled social common ownership of all things would stimulate great quantities of contemplation upon the great polarization implicit in the contrast between freedom and control. In this scenario which is being considered at this time/space nexus the idea of obliterating valuable sites and personnel would not be considered an useful one. Other weapons would be used which do not destroy as your nuclear arms would. In this ongoing struggle the light of freedom would burn within the mind/body/spirit complexes capable of such polarization. Lacking the opportunity for overt expression of the love of freedom, the seeking for inner knowledge would take root aided by those of the Brothers and Sisters of Sorrow which remember their calling upon this sphere.


65.8 Questioner: Are you saying then that this possible condition of war would be much more greatly spread across the surface of the globe than anything we have experienced in the past and therefore touch a larger percentage of the population in this form of catalyst?


Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. There are those now experimenting with one of the major weapons of this scenario, that is the so-called psychotronic group of devices which are being experimentally used to cause such alterations in wind and weather as will result in eventual famine. If this program is not countered and proves experimentally satisfactory, the methods in this scenario would be made public. There would then be what those whom you call Russians hope to be a bloodless invasion of their personnel in this and every land deemed valuable. However, the peoples of your culture have little propensity for bloodless surrender.

The Law of One Category Earth Present
 
Sorry for just dropping that Yang interview here without commenting on it. Basically, this guy claims he's approaching it not from an ideological basis but a 'technological, structural imperative', lending a kind of inevitability to it. I'm not convinced it's 'objectively so', but he does seem to have a good grasp on the numbers.

The way things have developed in the US - and elsewhere, but it's most 'advanced' in the US - is that millions of workers are being, and will be, pushed out of jobs due to e-commerce (like Amazon in the retail sector) and automation (assembly lines in manufacturing, driverless freight, etc). Those workers, mostly men, just aren't going to 'learn to code' or get an engineering degree. Even if, somehow, the 8% currently of STEM backgrounds (science, technology, engineering, mathematics) was boosted, there's already market oversupply, which is why you find STEMers working McDonald's.

Just today Apple's Tim Cook said, following his meeting with Trump, that 'learning to code' should be pushed in the education system so that every child knows at least some, and thus more will later become programmers. Yang says that that, and more, has already been attempted, but it doesn't budge the numbers: you can't make non-coders coders, and you can't force the market to accept more than it needs. Cook's dingbattery - as the Chinese can tell you with their separation of business leadership from national/social leadership - is indicative of why mercantilists/capitalists' interest in maximizing corporate profits doesn't necessarily translate into good governance!

Gradually, but increasingly imminently, capitalism (as it actually happened: not how people theorized it happened, or wished it would happen) has led us to this tendency towards automation, and tendency towards monopoly control - privatized Big Government, in effect. It has forced a stark choice on society: leave those unemployable workers by the wayside ('sorry but the market dictates you're expendable'), inviting the 'humane' solution of ending their misery by killing them off - the 'harsh capitalist/eugenicist' solution one can imagine that certain globalists espouse.

The other choice begins with some form of 'universal basic income' (UBI), providing a buffer zone within which those 'market-redundant' workers can retool/reeducate/reorient themselves for finding their niche and effectively creating or tapping into new markets. That's basically the choice that is already being applied, ad hoc, via myriad welfare programs. Yang is saying: we're already halfway doing it; let's stop pretending otherwise and go the whole hog.

I don't know if this would work for the better(ment of society generally).

In principle though, UBI is not alien to the USA. I was interested to learn that Alaska has successfully applied a mild form of direct wealth redistribution for 4 decades now. It's called the Alaska Permanent Fund, and involves annual dividend payouts (of $1,000 to $2,000) from oil and other mineral revenues to every state resident. Also interesting is that the state held a referendum in 1999 asking if the state government could use a portion of that fund for state government spending. An overwhelming majority (84%) said no. So Americans can accept wealth redistribution without necessarily increasing government control of how though resources are spent.

At the 20-minute mark, Yang tells Rogan what he's been hearing from truckers in Iowa about automated trucking: they'll never stand for it, they say, and will seek a law banning its implementation. Rogan comments something to the effect that, "Wow, that's so un-American to demand mandatory regulation banning someone's freedom to make/sell/use automated trucks."

Do you see the Catch-22 here?

It's been there since the beginning, but is perhaps just in sharper focus these days. When Ford and GM vacated Detroit to move their plants to Mexico and overseas, on the basis of seeking maximum profit, and that it was American workers' problem if they were left unemployed, they were 'exercising their freedom'. The same can be said at every step of the way towards what we see today, where just two-thirds of American adults participate in any form of paid labor. "Sorry, but it's Amazon's prerogative to run their final accounts in a tax-exempt 'offshore haven' like Ireland. They owe nothing to Americans, to their country. That's what makes America great - all the rights with no responsibilities."

You can't get around government intervention in 'the market', in principle. The very rich love socialism when it helps them. The biggest names in American business have traditionally become so thanks to government contracts. An industrious individual or family business can indeed start out simply 'selling to fellow Americans on the free market', but soon discovers a glass ceiling beyond which you need to mine for 'the real big bucks': exclusive deals for filling out government orders.

The corporations that make it to the big time then set up trusts and foundations to avoid paying taxes, which in turn spawn arrays of 'non-profits' that lobby government directly (today, by outright drafting most legislation) and propagandize the American people against 'Big Govt' indirectly. But it's a con-job: it's how Big Government came about, and it's why it's ruled by a deep state from the shadows, all the while convincing people that they're free, and that they thus have no reason to rebel or change things, ever.
 
That's what makes America great - all the rights with no responsibilities

Great post!

And it's interesting that that same ethos that fuels American capitalism has spilled over into identity politics and SJWs: all rights, no responsibilities being the core of their worldview. So rampant capitalism produced and mirrors radical lefty identity politics and SJWs, the very thing the SJWs claim to be fighting against. It's a strange world.
 
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Here's an interesting article originally published on Quillette that advocates for the introduction of a $1,000 monthly universal basic income in the US ...it makes a compelling case and thought I'd share here to see what others think.


I think that's a great summary of the situation, and Yang's proposal.

To make matters worse, the projections for job loss due to automation are pretty consistent across the board-coalescing at about 20-30 percent of jobs being subject to automation by 2030 among various research and financial institutions (Bain Capital, McKinsey, MIT)-which means the projections are probably accurate.

Something that irks me about it is that it assumes the inevitability of mass automation, that 'market forces brought us here, and now government must intervene'. But that's strictly true only if you fall for the suggestion that 'market forces' are such in one moment, and not in the next. Earlier CorpGov decisions have brought on mass automation. Sure, it's the cumulation of multiple inputs, and it's complex working out who or what are the main drivers, but it's down to past political decision-making at the end of the day. Is Bain Capital, listed above, disinterestedly predicting where 'market forces' are taking the US, or engaging in public advocacy about where it wants things to go because its financial investments in that direction stand to profit?

(Bain Capital is excoriated by Tucker Carlson in his video report, posted earlier in this thread, for being a CorpGov revolving door between high finance and high politics. Ostensibly a venture capital firm, it's actually a lobbying firm boasting, among others, Mitt Romney on its board, who goes from a career with Bain to running for office, back to his career with Bain... from shadow govt to forays into overt govt, then slinking back into the shadows...)

According to Yang, inflation has been low for years because globalization and technology have been helping reduce the cost of goods and services, and there is no good reason to believe that trend wont continue. Even after the 2008 financial crisis, when the U.S. government printed $4 trillion, we have not seen a meaningful rise in inflation.

Yes indeed. Left unsaid here is that 'globalization' in this context means 'it doesn't hurt the US to flood the planet with dollars', so long as the US dollar is functionally enforced/accepted as the world reserve currency.

Finally, one of the most common and reflexive arguments leveled against UBI is that it mirrors the fundamental flaw of the Welfare State: the absence of a stable incentive structure. If every American citizen is going to receive free money with not a single qualification or requirement, won't we all just become more lazy? I find this to be the least compelling argument against UBI, largely because it fails to acknowledge the actual problem with welfare policies. The issue with welfare is not that it creates no incentive, it is that it creates a disincentive. If a person is on disability, for example, getting better would mean getting off the dole, so there is actually an incentive not to re-enter the job market. If a single mother is on welfare and bringing a husband into the picture will suspend that monthly check, then she will be less inclined to find a husband. It is subtle shift in one's thought process that enhances an underlying feeling of dependency. The issue with welfare is not that it's free money; the issue is that the requirements necessary to receive welfare benefits tend to reward failure and punish success.

Yes, this is well-explained. It's not as simple as 'welfare makes people lazy'. The problem is that crazy Lefties control the discourse about welfare because Conservatives have long since vacated it. The identity-obsessed Left distributes it not 'according to people's needs' but according to their intersectionality :nuts:. The government could instead be rewarding family cohesion, and signalling that there's no reason to hide from work just because you don't want the taxman to find out you're 'moonlighting on benefits'. Here's Tucker Carlson interviewing the Hungarian foreign minister about a positive example of government intervention in wealth redistribution:


Alas, we see here how fixing one thing means fixing a whole slew of other things for the change to stand a chance of not making things worse overall than they already are. At least we learn from attempting to understand this how difficult it is to govern, and how dangerous it is to have incompetents in power.

This is not a silver bullet. But what I like most about Andrew Yang and his presidential campaign is that he is approaching modern problems with modern solutions while other candidates either grasp onto an idealized past or dredge up historical grievance. He breaks through the capitalism/socialism paradigm with ideas that could be placed on either side of the aisle, bolstering entrepreneurialism and economic development while also offering aid and support to those who have been caught in the tailwind of the market. His rapidly growing popularity is a testament to his humanist approach to politics and the growing disdain among the American public towards media polarization and identity politics promulgated by the elite stratospheres of society. The silent majority is being roused into consciousness. And that is a good thing.

Yes, he's not 'being an ideologue' about it, though of course the same precautionary principle applies to him as everyone else; we're all carriers of varying strains of ideology, the thoughts and ideas of other, usually powerful, and often long dead, people. Yang also understands the importance of restoring meaning to people's lives, especially men's lives, which I found synchs well with Peterson's work.
 
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Trendsetter37 said:
However, I attribute that to Big Pharma and the medical industry which are monopolies and not the result of a free-market.

Capitalism/free-market leads intrinsically to monopolies. Actually, a lot of scholars defending capitalism have no problem with that. Indeed, if economy is dictated by the behavior of economic agents solely guided by self-interest and profit maximization, it is unavoidable that some agents will do "better" than others.

In a very darwinian way (Darwin was an avid reader of Adam Smith), the monopoly is the ultimate example of the survival (in economic terms, the victory) of the "fittest".

The keyword above is 'fittest'. What is fitness when applied to a corporation? Is it a combination of hard work, competency and social utility or rather a combination domination, corruption and social destruction?

If it is the former, if monopolistic corporations are fair, efficient and socially beneficial then capitalism is indeed the greatest economic model ever.

However, some economists don't share this optimistic outlook. One of them is Joseph Stiglitz. He was awarded the 2001 Nobel prize in economics, he is now 76 year and recently wrote the following:

My own theoretical work long ago showed the flaws in Schumpeter’s analysis, and now empirical results provide strong confirmation. Today’s markets are characterized by the persistence of high monopoly profits.

The implications of this are profound. Many of the assumptions about market economies are based on acceptance of the competitive model, with marginal returns commensurate with social contributions. This view has led to hesitancy about official intervention: If markets are fundamentally efficient and fair, there is little that even the best of governments could do to improve matters. But if markets are based on exploitation, the rationale for laissez-faire disappears. Indeed, in that case, the battle against entrenched power is not only a battle for democracy; it is also a battle for efficiency and shared prosperity.

The whole article is available here.

As I wrote earlier capitalism does lead to monopolies. This is due to several structural reasons:

1/ Economy of scale (production).
This refers to the fact the more units a corporation produces, the lower the cost per unit gets. For example a big players can put more pressure on his supplier and get raw materials cheaper than his competitors.

2/ Capital intensity.
Some drivers of productivity like a robotized factory are 'capital intensive', i.e. they require a huge investment to be acquired, but once operational they allow huge cost saving and therefore 'unbeatable' end prices

3/ Merger and acquisition.
The dominating corporations can simply eliminate competitors by buying them. Once the competitor is absorbed the company can increase its prices without the threat of losing market shares.

4/ Dumping.
Because of their substantial reserve, market valuation and banking support, dominant corporations can start price wars (including dumping) in order to strangle competitors and finally buy them back a penny for the dollar

5/ Economy of scale (customers)
When holding a substantial market share, a corporation can eliminate competition by using 'customer packages'. For example a phone company offering free communication between his customers.
 

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