Collingwood's Idea of History & Speculum Mentis

genero81

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Yes, thank you for that luc. I would say you found the essential elements in Collingwood's defense of his own arguments.

I just finished the fourth book on the reading list; Gurdjieff and Hypnosis. Holy sh*t! That was a roller coaster ride! Tamdgidi did a fantastic job! I had to slow down a little on reading and give some time to digest the first four books. They all contained heavy duty information or intense perspectives or both. It was a little unsettling at times. I wanted to say I felt a little confused on where all of it was going, but I think disoriented (temporarily) is a better term. As far as G goes, I would say he believed that people were essentially lost to the possibility of overcoming the mass hypnosis of the "herd mentality" and so he probably figured since they had no real chance of fulfilling their true reason for being, he justified in his own mind that he could use them for his purposes which would ultimately be for their own good or the good of the human race. As the saying goes; "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." In the conclusion Tamgdgidi writes: "In the absence of an all round self-knowledge and "self-mastery" over all forms of hypnotic influence, including that exerted by the well intentioned "archangel" or teacher, the subconscious mind remains only an automated process devoid of flexibility to respond to the ever changing conditions of teaching and life" Which I believe explains pretty well why the G groups are barren. Life is a continual learning experience based on circumstances as they unfold. The mysteriousness of G was consciously intended creation of his writing. I immediately thought of Castaneda as well.

So now we know. I made a start on the second Raine book but I just purchased Samenow's book and I think I will go ahead and read it for a change in perspective if that's alright.
 

monotonic

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I have been rereading the section on Oakeshott (P. 151 in the original edition) for about a week now.
 

PERLOU

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Merci Loreta pour ta recherche, le livre est dans mon panier Amazon France...
Je te suis reconnaissante...


Thank you Loreta for your research, the book is in my basket Amazon France ...
I am grateful to you
 

Goemon_

Jedi Master
genero81 said:
Yes, thank you for that luc. I would say you found the essential elements in Collingwood's defense of his own arguments.

I just finished the fourth book on the reading list; Gurdjieff and Hypnosis. Holy sh*t! That was a roller coaster ride! Tamdgidi did a fantastic job! I had to slow down a little on reading and give some time to digest the first four books. They all contained heavy duty information or intense perspectives or both. It was a little unsettling at times. I wanted to say I felt a little confused on where all of it was going, but I think disoriented (temporarily) is a better term. As far as G goes, I would say he believed that people were essentially lost to the possibility of overcoming the mass hypnosis of the "herd mentality" and so he probably figured since they had no real chance of fulfilling their true reason for being, he justified in his own mind that he could use them for his purposes which would ultimately be for their own good or the good of the human race. As the saying goes; "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." In the conclusion Tamgdgidi writes: "In the absence of an all round self-knowledge and "self-mastery" over all forms of hypnotic influence, including that exerted by the well intentioned "archangel" or teacher, the subconscious mind remains only an automated process devoid of flexibility to respond to the ever changing conditions of teaching and life" Which I believe explains pretty well why the G groups are barren. Life is a continual learning experience based on circumstances as they unfold. The mysteriousness of G was consciously intended creation of his writing. I immediately thought of Castaneda as well.

So now we know. I made a start on the second Raine book but I just purchased Samenow's book and I think I will go ahead and read it for a change in perspective if that's alright.
While reading this thread I had infer that the reading list goes has follow :

1) The idea of History
2) Speculum Mentis
3) Gurdjieff And Hypnosis
4) Psychopathy

Have I made a mistake ?

I have read a third of The Idea of History; Then I intend to read Carr's book as I have the french edition, and that should be an easier reading, a kind of relaxing break. Then I intend to continue with Speculum Mentis.
 

Laura

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Goemon_ said:
genero81 said:
So now we know. I made a start on the second Raine book but I just purchased Samenow's book and I think I will go ahead and read it for a change in perspective if that's alright.
While reading this thread I had infer that the reading list goes has follow :

1) The idea of History
2) Speculum Mentis
3) Gurdjieff And Hypnosis
4) Psychopathy

Have I made a mistake ?

I have read a third of The Idea of History; Then I intend to read Carr's book as I have the french edition, and that should be an easier reading, a kind of relaxing break. Then I intend to continue with Speculum Mentis.
I think, at this point, that people should read them as they get them. There are different purposes for each of them in that short list.

The expanded list includes another Raine, Fallon, Waite, Samenow and Ressler.

Raine: The Anatomy of Violence
Samenow: Inside the Criminal Mind
Samenow: The Myth of the Out of Character Crime
Ressler: Whoever Fights Monsters
Fallon: The Psychopath Inside: A Neuroscientist's Personal Journey into the Dark Side of the Brain
Waite: The Psychopathic God: Adolph Hitler

The Raine and Fallon books are more about the architecture of the brain and where and how stuff goes wrong. Of course, Fallon gives you a bit of an insider view of his own thinking processes which mesh well with what Samenow and Ressler describe. This "fly on the wall" perspective on his mental processes is fascinating even if you know - and he tells you plainly - that he is not revealing everything.

Samenow and Ressler don't give a hoot about the mechanics of the brain in technical terms; they are interested in its output. They don't even care about emotions; they are only concerned with thinking processes. As they point out, it is thoughts that trigger emotions and many - if not most - people operate with serious thinking errors. In many cases, these thinking errors grow and develop over time. That's the scary part.

These "thinking errors", from our perspective, are pretty much just "wishful thinking" and serious dissociating into fantasy. On this, "The Myth of the Out of Character Crime" is the clearest exposition. He uses his notes from interviews to illustrate actual case histories.

There is the same thread of "thinking errors" highlighted in Ressler's book about FBI profiling. In this book, the crimes are a LOT worse than the ones that Samenow writes about. But the same basic cause is highlighted: wishful thinking and dissociation, i.e. thinking errors; the person comes to prefer or believe their fantasies over reality.

Waite is writing about not just the psychology of Adolf Hitler, but the psychology of a nation. He sort of brings all the things together that you will have picked up from Collingwood down through Samenow, and it is excellent background for the "Hyperdimensional Politics" thread.

Carr's book "What is History", could also be added to the list. It's not a weighty tome, but it is packed with insights and clarifies some things beyond Collingwood.

Going back to Fallon, he concludes at the end of his account of his life that he isn't really a psychopath, but rather has bi-polar disorder. You may or may not agree with him. I'm still not convinced.

Waite concludes at the end of the Hitler book that he thinks Hitler had borderline personality disorder. I'm not sure I agree with that, either. And I think that, with the Raine, Samenow, and Ressler books one might be better equipped to offer an opinion on that. As Samenow says, again and again, it's not the emotions being expressed that make the difference, it is the THOUGHTS that generate the emotions that matter. And, of course, we now have a lot better idea of thoughts and thinking thanks to Collingwood.

I would say that, after finishing this series of readings, many of you will be well equipped to understand a LOT of what is going on around, and better able to spot what is historically important in the present day, and what is not. What is more, I think that the frontal cortex efforts that are made to comprehend and connect these things will do some great things for your brain transceivers!
 

lids4321

Padawan Learner
Thanks Laura for the updated reading list and overview. It will help keep my reading on track and also assist me to understand the main ideas in a interconnected yet coherent and relatable manner.
 

trytofly

Jedi
I finally retraced the various recommended threads in addition to this one.
Thank you for all quotes and comments regarding the books mentioned !
As Perlou said, most books are unfortunately not translated into French. It is therefore an invaluable contribution to have your return on these books.

Regarding Collingwood, I read "All Story is Story of a Thought", and I'm nearing the end of "The New Leviathan". However, it is unfortunate that the French edition of "The new Leviathan" is tainted by a few missing words and especially by a very deficient punctuation. Which makes reading even less comfortable at times.
Nevertheless, the effort of concentration required for the proper understanding of Collingwood's writings is certainly beneficial.
 

Corvus

Jedi Council Member
I was thinking more in a line of thoughts, that you can not know someone s exact thoughts, especially those of different base, it was more in line of historical mind and absolute truth. Yes, I agree that you can "re-enact" it when it comes to motivations, but it is only surface level, but maybe it is better that way because you will end up scared otherwise like those actors not being the same after acting mentally disturbed charachters.

But I am not familiar with recommended literature and that is loot of books for which you have to have money and especially time, and I have to earn for a living working at day and night, and I am not a type that can stare at the book whole day, every day, so it will take time, maybe too long.
 

Laura

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Corvinus said:
I was thinking more in a line of thoughts, that you can not know someone s exact thoughts, especially those of different base, it was more in line of historical mind and absolute truth. Yes, I agree that you can "re-enact" it when it comes to motivations, but it is only surface level, but maybe it is better that way because you will end up scared otherwise like those actors not being the same after acting mentally disturbed charachters.

But I am not familiar with recommended literature and that is loot of books for which you have to have money and especially time, and I have to earn for a living working at day and night, and I am not a type that can stare at the book whole day, every day, so it will take time, maybe too long.
Make efforts! It's worth it! And if you can't afford the books, let me know and I'll see what I have PDFs for. Some of them are easily available that way, others not.
 
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BrendaH

Jedi
There's a web page that was already recommended on this thread, I've been using it and I found "Speculum Mentis", "The Idea of History", "Inside the Criminal Mind" and "What is History?" (I think they don't have the entire book there, you'd have to verify this and see if there's another version). This web page is: https://archive.org

Many of those book have the option to be "borrow", this means that the web page will lend you the book for 14 days (online of course, and you will have to create an account, which is free), this means that you will have to read the book in 14 days. Or take screenshots or download the image if it's available as I did with Speculum Mentis.

I have "What is History?" on PDF (the entire book). I have "The idea of history" on a PDF too, but this one I have it in Spanish and on that page it's only in English.

If the moderators agree and allow me to share the links or to upload any PDF archive that I have or to upload any other PDF that I don't have but I can find, (The Idea of History in English for example) I'll do it. But if not, if you do what I explained above to read those books online on that web page, you shouldn't have any problem finding or reading them.

With this I'm not intending to teach anybody how to violate copyright, I'm sure many people here can't afford many books, I can't either. But I found many of this books online and I thought that it would be fair to share them with someone who wants to read them and can't afford it, just as I'm being benefited, others can also be benefited. After all we can write good comments on Amazon or any other web page where this books are being sold or recommend those books to someone who we think may be interested in those topics. This is not the same as giving money, but may attract people, and if our economic position ever improves we can buy the book, which would be very fair.
 

Approaching Infinity

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BrenXHkm said:
If the moderators agree and allow me to share the links or to upload any PDF archive that I have or to upload any other PDF that I don't have but I can find, (The Idea of History in English for example) I'll do it. But if not, if you do what I explained above to read those books online on that web page, you shouldn't have any problem finding or reading them.

With this I'm not intending to teach anybody how to violate copyright, I'm sure many people here can't afford many books, I can't either. But I found many of this books online and I thought that it would be fair to share them with someone who wants to read them and can't afford it, just as I'm being benefited, others can also be benefited. After all we can write good comments on Amazon or any other web page where this books are being sold or recommend those books to someone who we think may be interested in those topics. This is not the same as giving money, but may attract people, and if our economic position ever improves we can buy the book, which would be very fair.
The books on archive.org are almost always in the public domain, so there's no problem in providing links to the PDFs. And many of the books there are available to download - no need to borrow and screenshot. In fact, that was the first I heard about borrowing. I always just download directly from the website.
 

BrendaH

Jedi
Approaching Infinity said:
BrenXHkm said:
If the moderators agree and allow me to share the links or to upload any PDF archive that I have or to upload any other PDF that I don't have but I can find, (The Idea of History in English for example) I'll do it. But if not, if you do what I explained above to read those books online on that web page, you shouldn't have any problem finding or reading them.

With this I'm not intending to teach anybody how to violate copyright, I'm sure many people here can't afford many books, I can't either. But I found many of this books online and I thought that it would be fair to share them with someone who wants to read them and can't afford it, just as I'm being benefited, others can also be benefited. After all we can write good comments on Amazon or any other web page where this books are being sold or recommend those books to someone who we think may be interested in those topics. This is not the same as giving money, but may attract people, and if our economic position ever improves we can buy the book, which would be very fair.
The books on archive.org are almost always in the public domain, so there's no problem in providing links to the PDFs. And many of the books there are available to download - no need to borrow and screenshot. In fact, that was the first I heard about borrowing. I always just download directly from the website.
Very good then. I don't know what is the problem I'm having, I could never read the ones that I downloaded, there is an "encrypted PDF" message all the time and the file closes. I thought this was on purpose. I'll recopilate all the links and share them here, as soon as possible.
 

Divide by Zero

The Living Force
From archive.org, I'm able to save the encrypted borrowed book as a normal epub (ex:The Psychopathic God by Waite. I don't know if those borrowed books are public domain or not though.
 

BrendaH

Jedi
Divide By Zero said:
From archive.org, I'm able to save the encrypted borrowed book as a normal epub (ex:The Psychopathic God by Waite. I don't know if those borrowed books are public domain or not though.
After you mentioned it, I checked and there was that option, it gave me a URLLink.acsm archive which I couldn't open, until I downloaded a program called Adobe Digital Editions. Thanks :)
 
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