Collingwood's Idea of History & Speculum Mentis

[nicklebleu]

I have been thinking about “mosaic” consciousness lately, trying to imagine what it is like. And because I am often quite a literal person (often way too literal for my own good), I tried to approach it from there.

As Collingwood describes there are different types of evidence. Scientific evidence is an observable fact that can be measured, or described, and that fits into a theory (or doesn’t fit, if it negates it). The other type of evidence I’ll call “cirmumstantial” evidence (don’t remember what Collingwood called it). Going back to his crime analogy, circumstantial evidence is an observation that is in line with a particular question that has been asked, that is part of the overarching question (Who dunnit?). In isolation one such piece of evidence is pretty worthless, but once all the single pieces have been put together (and maybe negative circumstantial evidence has been appropriately taken care of), a picture emerges, that may be used to give oneself an explanation to the question having been asked at the outset.

Applying this to our real world, and to our mind, it would seem that we have to gather little pieces and connect these with each other. No single piece of this evidence will by itself prove or falsify the theory, but taken togehter they form a picture. This picture is still not proof that the question has been successfully and fully answered (at the end, the perp has to confess), and furhter refinement will still be possible.

Not sure if this is going in the right direction - feedback much appreciated!

 

[Laura]

I find this a little bit bizarre. I know everyone means well telling Perlou to learn English, and it's certainly extremely helpful to know English and good for the brain to learn it, but I feel like people aren't being realistic here, which is kind of ironic in a thread that's more or less about clear thinking.

So let me translate it into something that you all might find easier to imagine. (I used nicklebleu's quote for the topic, but this goes to everyone concerned.)

Let's take a language most of you don't know, like... Finnish. (Pick another if you're Finnish.) How long do you think it would take you to learn Finnish well enough to read The Idea of History in Finnish and understand everything?

And how long do you think it would take if you were 63 years old?

Personally I think I could only do it if I made it my life's mission and dropped most things I do now. I'd have to completely change my life. Still, I think it would take me like 20 years to get on that level.

Well, let me give you my perspective as a 65 yr old in a multi-lingual household.

I know that I will never learn French well enough to write elegantly in French, but, having started at the age of 52, in what little spare time I had, and having French spoken all around me, I have learned to read it pretty well. If I have a problem with a word, I consult a translator or a dictionary. The biggest issues are with slang... I don't speak French very much, but if I need to in basic situations, I can. I just can't carry on a deep philosophical discussion; for that, I need a translator at my side.

One thing I have learned is that France actively discourages the learning of English for the majority of the population; the reason for this is clear, it is easier to control them if they don't know what is going on. Considering the following example:

Alfred Wallace’s scientific curiosity that drove him for over forty years is nowadays considered proof that he was an “eccentric”. In the French Encyclopedia Universalis, esteemed by many as a reliable source, in an entry on Alfred Russel Wallace by Jacqueline Brossolet, archiviste documentaliste à l'Institut Pasteur, she comments on this curiosity of his in just one sentence:

“À la fin de sa vie, il s'intéresse à la sociologie, à l'anthropologie et à l'évolution de l'homme : On Miracles and Modern Spiritualism (1875), Studies Scientific and Social (1900), Man's Place in the Universe (1903). En 1905, il écrit son autobiographie, My Life.”

Alfred Wallace’s first publication on the subject of paranormal appeared in 1866 – hardly at the “end of his life”, since Wallace died in 1913! If Encyclopedia Universalis is supposed to represent the position of “mainstream science”, in this case it is doing it well - by ignoring inconvenient facts and distorting the truth.

{...}

The motivations behind the work done by William Crookes and other curious researchers were described in the book “The Unknown” by a famous Frenchman, Camille Flammarion. That leads to the question: Who was Camille Flammarion?
Charles Richet, who in 1913 won the Nobel Prize for physiology and medicine, wrote the eulogy for Camille Flammarion in 1925, opening with these words:

“Nous venons de subir une perte cruelle.
Voici que disparaît, en pleine puissance intellectuelle malgré son grand âge, notre héroïque ami Camille Flammarion.
Il fut un grand savant. Il fut un noble poète. Il fut un ardent ami de l'humanité et de la paix. Il fut aussi un des fidèles de notre sainte cause, et, comme il avait le culte de la vérité, les problèmes qui nous occupent ici ont animé ses dernières années.”

Shockingly, Encyclopedia Universalis completely ignores this famous French personality completely; fortunately, the website of Observatory Meudon gives us the relevant details:

Nicolas Camille Flammarion was born in 1842 at Montigny-le-Roi in the department of Haute Marne, France. He first studied theology, but early became interested in astronomy. At age 16, in 1858, he wrote a 500-page manuscript, Cosmologie Universelle, and became an assistant of LeVerrier (the man whose calculations had led to the discovery of Neptune) at Paris Observatory. From 1862 to 1867, he temporarily worked at the Bureau of Longitudes, then returning to the Observatory where he became involved in the program of double star observing. This project resulted in publishing a catalog of 10,000 double stars in 1878.

Flammarion was honored by the naming of a Moon Crater (3.4S, 3.7W, 74.0 km diameter, in 1935) and a Mars Crater (25.4N, 311.8W, 173.0 km, in 1973). Asteroid (1021) Flammarion was discovered by Max Wolf on March 11 …

In his book “The Unknown” Flammarion writes with true passion about the research of William Crookes and others:

This work is an attempt to analyze scientifically subjects commonly held to have no connection with science, which are even accounted uncertain, fabulous, and more or less imaginary.

I am about to demonstrate that such facts exist. I am about to attempt to apply the same scientific methods employed in other sciences to the observation, verification, and analysis of phenomena commonly thrown aside as belonging to the land of dreams, the domain of the marvelous or the supernatural, and to establish that they are produced by forces still unknown to us, which belong to an invisible and natural world, different from the one we know through our own senses.

Is this attempt rational? Is it logical? Can it lead to results? I do not know. But I do know that it is interesting.

Consider the work of Benveniste:

In 2010 (December, 24 issue) Science Magazine featured an interview with French Nobel Laureate, Luc Montagnier. The title was: “French Nobelist Escapes ‘Intellectual Terror’ to Pursue Radical Ideas in China”. Montagnier remarked there:

There is a kind of fear around this topic in Europe. I am told that some people have reproduced Benveniste’s results, but they are afraid to publish it because of the intellectual terror from people who don’t understand it.

Consider also:

French mathematician, Alexandre Grothendieck. On May 4, 1988, the journal Le Monde published a letter from Grothendieck with the headline:

Lettre à l'Académie Royale des Sciences de Suède Le mathématicien français Alexandre Grothendieck refuse le prix Crafoord
The next few lines explain the issue:

Le mathématicien français Alexandre Grothendieck, qui obtint en 1966 la médaille Fields, l'équivalent du prix Nobel en mathématiques, vient de refuser le prix Crafoord que l'Académie royale des sciences de Suède avait décidé de lui décerner (Le Monde daté des 17 et 18 Avril). Ce prix, d'une valeur de 270 000 dollars (1,54 millions de francs), qu'il devait partager avec l'un de ses anciens élèves, le belge Pierre Deligne, récompense depuis 1982 des chercheurs travaillant dans le domaine des mathématiques, des sciences de la Terre, de l'astronomie et de la biologie.

English translation :
French Mathematician Alexander Grothendieck Rejects Crafoord Prize
The French mathematician Alexandre Grothendieck, who won the Fields Medal in 1986, the equivalent to the Nobel Prize in mathematics has just rejected the Crafoord Prize awarded him by the Swedish Academy of Sciences. (Le Monde, April 17-18) . This prize, worth 1.5 million French francs ( Note: $250,000 at the current rate of exchange ) which he was expected to share with one of his former students, the Belgian Pierre Deligne has, since 1982 been rewarding research scientists working in the disciplines of mathematics, earth sciences, astronomy and biology.

Grothendieck refused the prize for several reasons, but the most important one was:

… accepter d'entrer dans le jeu des prix et des récompenses serait aussi donner ma caution à un esprit et à une évolution, dans le monde scientifique, que je reconnais comme profondément malsains, et d'ailleurs condamnés à disparaître à brève échéance tant ils sont suicidaires spirituellement, et même intellectuellement et matériellement.

Or, in English rendering:
… were I to agree to enter into the game of prizes and rewards, it would be equivalent to my giving stamp of approval to a state of affairs in today's sciences that I see as being profoundly unhealthy. Their spiritual state, even their intellectual and material states, are nothing less than suicidal, hence they are destined to vanish in the near future.

In countries such as France, where great emphasis is placed on everyone speaking the same language, and the language is held up as the proof of allegiance to “French values”, there is a serious and growing isolation caused by the very small number of French people who learn English. This is dangerous to science in France and ultimately dangerous to France itself.

One of the main examples of this is the statistical evidence that France is at least 40 years behind other Western countries in social and humanistic sciences. In the top 100 world universities, France has two entries in the rankings : ENS comes in at 26 and Ecole Polytechnique at position 28. In life sciences and medicine, France ranks at number 48. In social sciences, France isn’t even on the list. That is a shocking fact for the country that is the home of “liberte, egalita, fraternite.” Of the top 10 universities in the world, 6 are in the U.S. and 4 in UK. If France intends to catch up, it’s going to have to speak English.

So, let me also add that, for a French person, English is easy; for an English speaking person, French is relatively easy; the reason is that there are so many words in both languages that are identical except for pronunciation. So, suggesting Finnish, one of the most difficult languages to learn for anybody except maybe Hungarians, is not exactly a propos... to use a term that is viable in French and English.

There are threads on the forum that talk about how your language controls your thinking; this is oh, so true! Chu, our resident linguist, who speaks several languages fluently (and without accent!) and several others passably, notes that her thinking definitely HAS to change depending on which language she is working in. She says that English is certainly easy to learn and very flexible.

I would suggest that Perlou give 90 minutes a day to learning English; one thing is certain, it will stave off Alzheimers and senile dementia! https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2017/12/07/cognitive-training-dementia.aspx

 

[Mandatory Intellectomy]

One thing I have learned is that France actively discourages the learning of English for the majority of the population

This is really sad, and it's similar in my country. Not so much that it's discouraged, but it seems like people just aren't interested in learning English. Like it's some kind of an unnecessary bother. It's just not part of the "culture". The effect is the same, whatever the reason. The people in my country live in a small world of 10 million people who speak the same language. Their Internet usage and everything is limited to their native language. I don't understand how they can live like that.

As you describe further, learning languages, and English in particular, does IMMENSELY expand your thinking, awareness, and knowledge. This is the main reason why I've focused on learning English so much. The access to information is 100 times larger than in my native language.

This is also reflected in what you show regarding the ignored authors. I started reading esoteric and metaphysical literature when I was 13. There was no Internet then, so books were the only option. I learned about other books and authors mainly from the books I was reading, and finding them was a huge problem. Getting English books was pretty much impossible then (and at that age, my English wasn't good enough anyway), and I was constantly running into the problem that many of the books I was looking for hadn't been translated. And, as in your examples, some authors may as well not have existed at all.

Of all the decisions I've made in life, learning English pretty well is probably the one that has paid off the most. People who don't learn it, in just about any country, have no idea how much they are isolating themselves from the rest of the world and reality in general.

You're right that the Finnish example was a bit off. I was looking for a language that would be foreign to most readers, and there are many French speakers here. French and English are relatively close, so that's an advantage. Still, it requires a lot of time and dedication, especially if you want to read books, so with that goal in mind, it would be quite a struggle. Also, while English is indeed pretty easy compared to other languages, it has a huge vocabulary, which gets used rather extensively in authors like Collingwood. So it's a tough call.

 

[Cleo]

As for book order, y'all just read them as you get them. But remember, the Collingwood books are the real exercise for the brain while the others tell you what is going on in that brain and why it needs exercise!!! So you could even start with Samenow and Raine and Fallon and Ressler first, which should scare you enough to know WHY you need to persist with Collingwood and Tamdgidi, and will also give you insight into why Gurdjieff wasn't entirely "clean".

Reading the above, I decided to start reading 'The Anatomy of Violence' by Raine and am getting quite a bit further than when I tried to start with 'The Idea of History' (I only have those two books currently). Intimidated by 'The Idea of History' for some reason!

 

[PERLOU]

Merci Laura et vous tous pour votre soutien.
En réalité depuis hier j'ai fait neuf "bases" de Duolingo mais je n'ai pas fais attention au temps passé car c'était plutôt amusant...
Il mes restait quelques bribes de mon anglais scolaire. Pour vous lire sur le forum, je me sers du traducteur Google pour vous comprendre.
Je vais faire de mon mieux pour étudier l'Anglais pendant 90 minutes par jour comme recommandé par Laura. Merci pour tout.

Thank you Laura and all of you for your support.
In fact since yesterday I made nine "bases" of Duolingo but I did not pay attention to the past time because it was rather fun ...
I had a few bits of my school English left. To read you on the forum, I use the Google translator to understand you.
I will do my best to study English for 90 minutes a day as recommended by Laura. Thank you for everything.

 

[jhonny]

One thing I have learned is that France actively discourages the learning of English for the majority of the population

This is really sad, and it's similar in my country. Not so much that it's discouraged, but it seems like people just aren't interested in learning English. Like it's some kind of an unnecessary bother. It's just not part of the "culture". The effect is the same, whatever the reason. The people in my country live in a small world of 10 million people who speak the same language. Their Internet usage and everything is limited to their native language. I don't understand how they can live like that.

As you describe further, learning languages, and English in particular, does IMMENSELY expand your thinking, awareness, and knowledge. This is the main reason why I've focused on learning English so much. The access to information is 100 times larger than in my native language.

Right! And I must say, if hadn’t bumped into this forum and laura’s work I woudn’t have learned English. Although I don’t speak fluently due to the lack of speaking practice, I can read/listen well, so I strongly recommend you to make an effort

 

[onemen]

Merci à tous pour vos attentions, encouragements et liens...
Je vais commencer par 5 minutes par jour avec Duolingo...
Je viens de faire 5 minutes à l'instant et je trouve cela amusant...
Mille mercis

Salut PERLOU, je seconde tout le monde sur "apprendre à comprendre" l'anglais.

Je voulais juste partager mon expérience avec vous. Je suis d'origine francophone et j'ai commencé à lire sérieusement en anglais depuis 2012 (j'avais 24 ans) depuis ma rencontre avec ce réseau. Je ne considérerais même pas que j'ai "appris" l'anglais.
Je n'ai jamais vraiment intéressé d'aller aux États-Unis ou dans un autre monde anglophone. Ce que j'ai fait a été de me concentrer sur ma passion / mon intérêt / mon but: apprendre le savoir / la vérité, pas spécialement l'anglais en soi. Je voulais juste obtenir les informations les plus à jour à ce sujet.

Bien qu'avant cela, j'avais 13 ans, je m'intéressais à des sujets du monde anglophone, mais je n'appris pas sérieusement la langue.
Je n'étais pas spécialement bon à l'école en anglais. Adolescent, j'étais juste passionné par certains types de musique américaine (hiphop) et j'étais un fan de NBA baskeball américain et j'ai suivi ma passion en regardant des résumés de jeux, des documentaires, des paroles de mon joueur / chanteur préféré même si je ne comprenais pas sacrément à propos de ce qui a été dit / écrit (et ne cherchait même pas à comprendre à ce moment-là).

Plus tard dans la vingtaine, je suis tombé dans la communauté mondiale des jeux vidéo en ligne, j'ai fréquenté les joueurs anglophones en ligne, pour faire avancer mes progrès dans la compréhension et aussi je suivais divers forums anglais liés pour obtenir les nouvelles.
Aussi, comme c'est courant dans ce cercle, je suis tombé dans des animations de dessins animés japonais où le truc commun est de regarder les émissions en "version originale sous-titré en français", depuis, cette tendance m'a incité à regarder tout films, émission de télévision, j'étais intéressé par, dans la version originale.

Au moment où je m'intéressais aux enseignements ésotériques / spirituels, j'étais déjà à l'aise pour regarder / écouter en anglais.
Même si je ne comprenais toujours pas beaucoup de choses, j'avais déjà compris quelques termes et motifs anglais communs et saisissais la plupart du sens / contexte.
Je ne lisais pas beaucoup de livres ou d'articles en anglais à cette époque. J'ai commencé sérieusement "apprendre" l'anglais quand j'ai rencontré ce réseau. Au début, je cherchais beaucoup de mots dans le processus de lecture, c'était fastidieux mais ça en valait la peine, car mon but était de comprendre le livre. J'ai mis en signet reverso / google translate et j'ai même installé un dictionnaire anglais appelé wordweb pour déduire un mot inconnu par des synonymes que je connaissais pour approfondir la connaissance du vocabulaire dans le processus.

Et maintenant 5 ans plus tard (j'ai 29 ans), je lis l'IOH et je suis capable de le comprendre même si c'est un peu difficile à suivre de temps en temps.
J'ai encore beaucoup de progrès à faire, surtout en écriture.
Oralement, je n'en parle même pas.

Donc, mon conseil est de garder la foi dans la poursuite de vos intérêts, votre passion, tout ce que vous aimez et que vous voulez savoir (films, musique, animaux, connaissances ...) et commencer à chercher des ressources liées à ces intérêts et alors la barrière de la langue devient juste un simple obstacle que vous faites avec, progressivement dans le processus de la poursuite de vos intérêts.




Hi PERLOU, I second everyone about "learning to understand" English.

I just wanted to share my experience to you. I'm from a french speaking background and I have begun to seriously read in english since 2012 (I was 24 years old) since meeting with this network. I wouldn't even consider that i have been "learning" english.
I was never really interested in going to the US or an other english speaking world. What I did was focusing on my passion/interest/aim : learning about knowledge/truth, not especially english per se. I just wanted to get the most up to dates infos about it.

Though before that since I was 13 years old, I was interested in some english speaking-world matters but no seriously learning the language.
I wasn't specially good in school in english. As a teen I was just passionate of some types of American Music (hiphop) and was a fan of American baskeball NBA and followed my passion by watching games summary, documentaries, lyrics of my favorite player/singer even if I didn't understand a damn thing about what was said/written (and wasn't even looking to understand at that point).

Later around my twenties, I fell into the online video games world community, frequented english speaking players online, furthering my progress in understanding and also I was following various related english forum to get the news.
Also, as it is common in this circle, I fell into japanese cartoons animations where the common thing is to watch the shows in "version original sous-titré en français", since this, this tendency have prompted me from this time to watch everything movies, tv show, i was interested in, in version original.

By the time I was interested with esoteric/spiritual teachings, I was already at ease with watching/listening in English.
Even though i still wasn't understanding much litteraly, I had already grasp some common english terms and patterns and grasp most of the meaning/context.
I wasn't much reading books or articles in english at that time. I begun seriously "learning" english when I encoutered this network. In the beginning, I was searching lots of words in the process of reading, it was a tedious but worth it, as my aim was to understand the book. I bookmarked reverso/google translate and even installed an english dictionary called wordweb to infer unknow word by synonyms I knew furthering vocabulary knowledge in the process.

And Now 5 years later (I'm 29 years old), I am reading IOH and able to understand it even though it's a bit hard to follow at times.
I still have much progress to do, especially in the writing side.
Orally, I do not even talk about it.

So my advice is to you is to just keep faith in pursuing your interests, your passion, whatever it is that you love and want to know about (movies, music, pets, Knowledge...) and begin searching for find ressources related to thoses interests and then the language barrier become just a mere barrier that you do with, progressively in the process of pursuing your interests.

 

[PERLOU]

Merci Jonnhy et Onemen pour vos encouragements...
Je vais suivre vos conseils et faire l'effort d'apprendre l'Anglais comme conseillé précédemment...
Sur Duolingo je suis arrivée à "Maitrise de l'Anglais : 44%".
Je viens de recevoir "Chasseur de tueurs" de Robert Ressler en Français
D'après vous par quel livre en Anglais devrais-je commencer dans la liste de Laura ?
Un pas trop difficile pour débuter... Merci à tous pour votre soutien et intérêt.



Thank you Jonnhy and Onemen for your encouragement ...
I will follow your advice and make the effort to learn English as advised previously ...
On Duolingo I arrived at "Master of English: 44%".
I just received Robert Ressler's "Chasseur des tueurs" in French
Which book do you think should be in English from Laura's list?
A step too difficult to start ... Thank you all for your support and interest.

 

[Jacques]

Merci Jonnhy et Onemen pour vos encouragements...
Je vais suivre vos conseils et faire l'effort d'apprendre l'Anglais comme conseillé précédemment...
Sur Duolingo je suis arrivée à "Maitrise de l'Anglais : 44%".
Je viens de recevoir "Chasseur de tueurs" de Robert Ressler en Français
D'après vous par quel livre en Anglais devrais-je commencer dans la liste de Laura ?
Un pas trop difficile pour débuter... Merci à tous pour votre soutien et intérêt.



Thank you Jonnhy and Onemen for your encouragement ...
I will follow your advice and make the effort to learn English as advised previously ...
On Duolingo I arrived at "Master of English: 44%".
I just received Robert Ressler's "Chasseur des tueurs" in French
Which book do you think should be in English from Laura's list?
A step too difficult to start ... Thank you all for your support and interest.

Since you have read the Wave #1 in French, why not begin with The Wave #1 in English.

 

[PERLOU]

Merci Gandalf mais je préférerai lire un des livres de la liste de Laura qui n'est pas traduit en Français...
Il me reste encore de la lecture en Français, j'espère d'ici là avoir plus de connaissances en Anglais...

Thank you Gandalf but I would prefer to read one of the books from Laura's list that is not translated into French ...
I still have reading in French, I hope by then to have more knowledge in English ...

 

[nature]

Bonjour Perlou,
il y a un autre outil de traduction, plus fluide, performant et pratique: DeepL.
Vous pouvez faire copier-coller si vous avez un format électronique de Collingwood ou autres livres recommandés.
Profitez-en pour relire la partie en anglais après avoir lu la traduction.

Traduction DeepL:
Hello Perlou,
there is another, more fluid, efficient and practical translation tool: DeepL.
You can have it copied and pasted if you have a Collingwood electronic format or other recommended books.
Take the opportunity to reread the part in English after reading the translation.

 

[nicklebleu]

PERLOU, je ne commencerais pas avec le livre de Collingwoods - ils utilisent un langage et des phrases complexes, mais les livres de Laura devraient être bien - surtout si vous avez la version française, pour que vous puissiez comparer le texte ligne par ligne.

PERLOU, I wouldn’t start with Collingwoods book - they use complex language and sentences, but Laura’s books should be fine - especially if you have the French version, so that you can compare the text line by line.

 

[PERLOU]

Merci pour vos conseils que j'apprécie beaucoup...
Après une nuit qui porte conseil, je vais commencer par un livre de Laura qui n'est pas traduit en Français.
Je vais les rechercher sur Amazon et faire mon choix... Avez vous une idée par lequel commencé ?
J'utiliserai le traducteur conseillé DEEPL... Merci pour l'info.
https://deepl.com/translator


Thank you for your advice, which I appreciate very much...
After a night of advice, I'm going to start with a book by Laura that isn't translated into French.
I'll search for them on Amazon and make my choice... Do you have any idea where to start?
I will use the recommended translator DEEPL... Thanks for the heads-up.
https://deepl.com/translator

 

[Christine]

Thank you very much to Trytofly and nature for the links. :)

 

[nature]

Perlou: I think you can begin with the Cs sessions that haven't been translated in french 1994 to 2009 https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,39906.0.html
With the knowledge you have now, you'll understand these sessions better today, with another understanding than if you would read at that time. ;)

If it is a book from the recommended list that you wish, take one of the urgent list given above (Adrian, or Samenow, ebook version) and get the translation via DeepL.
If it's one of the books from Laura that you wish, take one you haven't yet read.


Perlou, je pense que ce serait pas mal de commencer avec les séances cassiopéennes qui n'ont pas été traduites en français, soit 1994 à 2009 https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,39906.0.html
Avec la connaissance et la compréhension que tu as aujourd'hui, tu liras ces séances avec une compréhension bien différente que si tu les avais lues à l'époque. ;)

Si c'est un livre de la liste recommandée que tu souhaites, prends'en un de la liste urgente donnée ci-dessus (Adrian ou Samenow, version électronique) et copie-colle sur DeepL
Si c'est un des livres de Laura que tu souhaites, prends celui que tu n'as pas encore lu.