Collingwood's Idea of History & Speculum Mentis

[jhonny]

Quel dommage que la majorité de ses livres ne soient pas traduits en Français...
J'ai acheté tous ceux qui l'étaient...
Merci pour vos listes...

What a shame that the majority of his books are not translated into French ...
I bought everyone who was ...
Thank you for your lists ...

Hi PERLOU

I've noticed a few posts from you about the new reading list, Collingwood in particular, where you highlight the problem of there being few French translations.

Have you ever thought about studying English? Would it be something you could fit into your schedule? Are there any teachers near to you or maybe an online course?

Hi PERLOU

There are a lot of good courses online and I think you also should try podcasts.
eslpod.com is very good.

 

[monotonic]

What I end up doing is rereading a section in a slightly different way each time until I can come up with some of my own words and the feeling goes away. Of course I can never say it better than Collingwood does, so I usually dismiss my own wording. Just being able to slightly paraphrase shows that you have a basic understanding. At that point what you really need is to relate it to something in the present it can be applied to, because it becomes knowledge in self-reflection (I think Collingwood says something like this).

 

[Konstantin]

The feeling is like all that text that I read from the book is still trying to " find its place" in my mind. Very interesting feeling.
Maybe it is because i read it in English and not in my native language.
Or maybe it will all settle down when I will continue with the speculum Mentis and the rest of recommended books.

I can relate to that feeling. It's like IoH is only one piece of the puzzle. And although we already have other pieces too, the new emerging image may become visible after we will catch up with the rest of the reading. Perhaps only then we will be able to have the true "Aha!" moment, and the information from the book will finally find its place in our mind. :) Mosaic consciousness and all that.

But it does feel like something significant is happening!

I read "Idea of History" in my mother language (Spanish) and I actually didn't like the translation. After reading some of the quotes in English in this thread, I realized that it is much more clearer in the original language.

Yes, I also started reading it in Russian, but now find it more approachable in English.

Yeah, it is like yup I'm there but still, something is missing. And As soon as I finished those last pages from IoH I will continue with speculum mentis so I could keep the continuity.
As I said the reading is going slow. On some parts, I have to reread it back for a few times in order to understand the point. And when I get the point after 2 or 3 readings i ask myself how could I not get this the first time.
But, as you all have already said something is happening in our minds. I just have to push myself to read all the books from the list so I could complete all this into my mind.

 

[BrendaH]

Quel dommage que la majorité de ses livres ne soient pas traduits en Français...
J'ai acheté tous ceux qui l'étaient...
Merci pour vos listes...

What a shame that the majority of his books are not translated into French ...
I bought everyone who was ...
Thank you for your lists ...

Hi PERLOU, you have already received good advices, and I want to add to what everyone has said that what will help you a lot to learn another language and will make the process of learning easier is to have a goal. But this is something that only you can find, your goal may be learning English in order to be able to read the recommended books that are not available in French, for any other person their goal is learning English because of travel. My goal was to learn English so I could be able to understand some songs lyrics and don't have to depend on translations, it wasn't a big goal, today I don't even care about it (and today, most of the songs no matter what the language is, are awful so it's better if I don't understand them), but the point is that having a goal and a reason for learning another language gave me motivation for doing it. If tomorrow I have to learn Chinese I'm sure it will take me more time because there is nothing that makes me want to learn that language.

You can learn a lot online too, whenever you have time you can take lessons online. You can find a lot of videos on YouTube too, they are very helpful.

 

[987baz]

The feeling is like all that text that I read from the book is still trying to " find its place" in my mind. Very interesting feeling.
Maybe it is because i read it in English and not in my native language.
Or maybe it will all settle down when I will continue with the speculum Mentis and the rest of recommended books.

I can relate to that feeling. It's like IoH is only one piece of the puzzle. And although we already have other pieces too, the new emerging image may become visible after we will catch up with the rest of the reading. Perhaps only then we will be able to have the true "Aha!" moment, and the information from the book will finally find its place in our mind. :) Mosaic consciousness and all that.

But it does feel like something significant is happening!

I read "Idea of History" in my mother language (Spanish) and I actually didn't like the translation. After reading some of the quotes in English in this thread, I realized that it is much more clearer in the original language.

Yes, I also started reading it in Russian, but now find it more approachable in English.

Yeah, it is like yup I'm there but still, something is missing. And As soon as I finished those last pages from IoH I will continue with speculum mentis so I could keep the continuity.
As I said the reading is going slow. On some parts, I have to reread it back for a few times in order to understand the point. And when I get the point after 2 or 3 readings i ask myself how could I not get this the first time.
But, as you all have already said something is happening in our minds. I just have to push myself to read all the books from the list so I could complete all this into my mind.

I have the same reaction, I have read about 90% of IOH, and what I have found, that helps me at least, is to read it out aloud. It not only seems to help with recall, but is a good exercise in articulation too, and I have noticed that even though I understand a certain word and can pronounce it in my head, sometimes to my disbelief I find it difficult to speak it, after an attempt t 2 it seems to come out better :)

The study tested four methods for learning written information, including reading silently, hearing someone else read, listening to a recording of oneself reading, and reading aloud in real time. Results from tests with 95 participants showed that the production effect of reading information aloud to yourself resulted in the best remembering.

Sott Article - https://www.sott.net/article/369881-The-production-effect-Reading-aloud-improves-recall

 

[monotonic]

I originally had a long post written up in response to Konstantin, trying to relate the process of comprehending Colingwood to how Collingwood describes the process of understanding history, because I think you might actually find the solution to that feeling of incomprehension if you studied IOH carefully. I deleted it because I thought it didn't really work out the way I framed it and I wasn't sure I really understood what Collingwood meant anyway. But in short I think for the historian the meaning of the past is understood in terms of it's relation to the present, so it may be hard to understand the meaning of Collingwood until you have been able to express and work with his ideas on present problems. That doesn't necessarily mean that you haven't read his work correctly, but I think that part is about preparing the "soil" and you are waiting for the "seed" to bring his work into focus. I guess that the seed could be anywhere, the past, the future, whether it is something you already know that you need to bring into present consciousness or something in the future such as another book. Probably a combination of that and more. Or, perhaps you really do just need to read it over and over again until you understand it.

 

[Martina]

Hello, I am really happy because I've read IoH thanks to you, which brought my longing back because I realize that I wanted to be a historian not a teacher. I studied philosophy for one year and had one year in highschool so I understood the terms in the book but I admit it is something you have to really focus on. One thing I borrowed book in library and this edition doesn't have chapter five. I'm going be here often in next few days so I would love to discuss about the book and read your comments which I haven't done yet. Thanks Laura for the book, bye everyone, have a great day!

 

[PERLOU]

Merci à tous pour vos conseils d'apprendre l'Anglais... Oui j'y ai bien pensé mais à 63 ans ma mémoire n'est pas excellente...
J'ai lu en Français : Toute histoire est histoire d'une pensée : Autobiographie d'un philosophe archéologue - Collingwood, Robin George
Je suis à la moitié du livre Le nouveau Léviathan ou l'homme, la société, la civilisation et la barbarie - Collingwood, Robin G.
(j"ai eu du al au début mais maintenant à lla moitié du livre la lecture se fait de plus en plus facile voir limpide)
Je n'ai pas terminé Les 13 Vertus De L'Homme: 13 Leçons De Virilité Inspirées De Benjamin Franklin - Rottman, Dave

Il me reste à lire en Français : Qu'est ce que l'histoire d'E.H. Carr que j'ai reçu
Les secrets de la correspondance de Cicéron de Jérôme Carcopino que j'ai reçu également

Et je vais recevoir en Français : Chasseur de tueurs - Robert Reissler

Je n'ai jamais été attirée par la langue Anglaise ni par l'Angleterre encore mois les Etats-Unis d'où mon peu d'intérêt pour cette langue...
L'avenir dira si j'ai le courage d'entreprendre malgré tout l'étude de cette langue quand j'aurais lu tout ce qui me reste en Français...



Thank you all for your advice to learn English ... Yes I thought well but at 63 my memory is not excellent ...
I read in French: All history is story of a thought: Autobiography of an archaeologist philosopher - Collingwood, Robin George
I'm halfway through The New Leviathan or Man, Society, Civilization and Barbarism - Collingwood, Robin G.
(I had al at the beginning but now at the half of the book the reading is done more and more easy to see limpid)
I Did not Complete The 13 Virtues Of Man: 13 Lessons From Virility Inspired By Benjamin Franklin - Rottman, Dave

It remains for me to read in French: What is the history of E.H. Carr that I received
The secrets of Cicero's correspondence of Jerome Carcopino that I also received

And I will receive in French: Hunter of killers - Robert Reissler

I have never been attracted by the English language nor by England, even the United States, hence my lack of interest in this language ...
The future will tell if I have the courage to undertake despite all the study of this language when I read all that I have left in French ...

 

[Pierre]

I have never been attracted by the English language nor by England, even the United States, hence my lack of interest in this language ...
The future will tell if I have the courage to undertake despite all the study of this language when I read all that I have left in French ...

Maybe you can try to approach this from a different perspective: learning English because you love knowledge, despite what you think about the UK, the US, etc. Because, as a matter of fact, most written knowledge is available in English and not in French.

 

[Keit]

Thank you all for your advice to learn English ... Yes I thought well but at 63 my memory is not excellent ...

Learning new language is never too late!
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/mar/18/learning-a-language-in-later-life-are-you-ever-too-old

It also helps to keep your brain sharp!

Although learning a new language may not always be easy for older adults, research suggests it can help slow down age-related cognitive decline. One study, which examined the medical records of 648 Alzheimer’s patients in the Indian city of Hyderabad found that bilinguals developed dementia four to five years later than monolinguals. This point has not escaped Williams, who believes if you don’t use it you lose it.

Also Richard Bach said:

Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours.

;)

 

[Ant22]

Thank you all for your advice to learn English ... Yes I thought well but at 63 my memory is not excellent ...

Learning new language is never too late!
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/mar/18/learning-a-language-in-later-life-are-you-ever-too-old

It also helps to keep your brain sharp!

Although learning a new language may not always be easy for older adults, research suggests it can help slow down age-related cognitive decline. One study, which examined the medical records of 648 Alzheimer’s patients in the Indian city of Hyderabad found that bilinguals developed dementia four to five years later than monolinguals. This point has not escaped Williams, who believes if you don’t use it you lose it.

Also Richard Bach said:

Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours.

I agree with Keit! And if your brain and memory are sharp enough to cope with concepts discussed on this forum I'm sure it's also sharp enough to cope with learning English :)

I'm currently learning Russian and some students in my group are around your age, two are even older. Russian is very different from English and most of my classmates have never learned a foreign language before - yet they're doing very well! Not everyone has a natural talent for learning languages, some people just have to put more work in but it's all achievable. By the age of 65 you should be able to understand large parts of written text. If you don't start now by that age you will still be limited to French only.

I'd be really happy to see Perlou posting in English!

 

[trytofly]

Thank you all for your advice to learn English ... Yes I thought well but at 63 my memory is not excellent ...

I am not very well placed to talk about it because I have big difficulties in English. But I try to improve myself.
After several tests of sites in lines recently, the most pleasant that I found is this one:
https://fr.duolingo.com/course/en/fr/Apprends-l'anglais-en-ligne

I do not know what it's worth in the long run...

Gerard Depardieu learns Russian

http://<iframe width="640" height="...w="encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[nicklebleu]

Perlou, pourquoi ne pas apprendre la langue Anglaise en parallel de lire tous les livres recommendés? Disons 20 minutes par jour? Duolingo est un bon point de départ, c’est gratuit. Car la liste des livres recommendés continuera de devenir plus longue et la plupart des membres sont déjà incapables de les lires tous, même en forme presente.

Je pense que l’age n’est pas un facteur important pour apprendre une nouvelle langue, il vous prendra plus the temps, peut-être, mais cela ne fait rien. E comme Keit l’a dit, c’est un bon exercice pour le cerveau.

Moi aussi je serais ravi de vous voir poster en Anglais sur ce site. Mes excuses pour mon Français maladroit.



Perlou, why not learn English at the same time as reading all the books? Let’s say 20 minutes each day? Duolingo is a good starting point, and it’s free. Because the list of recommended books will ever grow longer, and most members are unable to read all of them even now.

And I think that age is not really an important factor in learning a new language. Granted, it may take you a bit longer, but who cares? And like Keit said, it’s an excellent exercise for the brain.

I too would love to see you post in English on this site. And apologies for my awkward French.

 

[Mandatory Intellectomy]

Perlou, why not learn English at the same time as reading all the books? Let’s say 20 minutes each day? Duolingo is a good starting point, and it’s free. Because the list of recommended books will ever grow longer, and most members are unable to read all of them even now.

And I think that age is not really an important factor in learning a new language. Granted, it may take you a bit longer, but who cares? And like Keit said, it’s an excellent exercise for the brain.

I too would love to see you post in English on this site. And apologies for my awkward French.

I find this a little bit bizarre. I know everyone means well telling Perlou to learn English, and it's certainly extremely helpful to know English and good for the brain to learn it, but I feel like people aren't being realistic here, which is kind of ironic in a thread that's more or less about clear thinking.

So let me translate it into something that you all might find easier to imagine. (I used nicklebleu's quote for the topic, but this goes to everyone concerned.)

Let's take a language most of you don't know, like... Finnish. (Pick another if you're Finnish.) How long do you think it would take you to learn Finnish well enough to read The Idea of History in Finnish and understand everything?

And how long do you think it would take if you were 63 years old?

Personally I think I could only do it if I made it my life's mission and dropped most things I do now. I'd have to completely change my life. Still, I think it would take me like 20 years to get on that level.

"Granted, it may take you a bit longer, but who cares?"

Well, imo, you're basically saying: Why not learn English, Perlou? You'll be able to read these books by the time you're 80. Who cares if it takes that long?

I definitely would care if it took me 20 years to be able to read a book. And while it may still be a good investment if you're 25, it matters much more if you're 63.

I've been learning English for 30 years, and I still run into words I don't know almost daily. And English has been one of top priorities in my life. I'm reading The Idea of History in English without problems, but I don't think my friends in my country could.

I'm sorry if this seems off topic, but as I said, this thread is about clear thinking, considering context, maintaining objectivity, detecting errors in thinking, etc., so I find this rather interesting. I just feel like these people, while they certainly mean well, don't quite realise the full implications of what they're suggesting.

 

[PERLOU]

Merci à tous pour vos attentions, encouragements et liens...
Je vais commencer par 5 minutes par jour avec Duolingo...
Je viens de faire 5 minutes à l'instant et je trouve cela amusant...
Mille mercis

Thank you all for your attention, encouragement and links ...
I will start with 5 minutes a day with Duolingo ...
I just did 5 minutes right now and I find it amusing ...
Many thanks