Confused about shamanism/ neo-shamanism

[echo]

Hello everyone,

I am completing a course on shamanism/ neo-shamanism as a part of my uni studies in comparative religion and while it has been interesting it has left me with more questions than answers. I am trying to wrap my head around the phenomenon of shamanism in an objective way. It seems that researchers either become shamans themselves and sell books or courses or keep a great intellectual distance to the tradition, which makes it seem like hocus-pocus or something that was necessary before modernism/post-modernism, "when people believed in fairies". The book in the course literature that I appreciated the most, that I know some of you have read, was Mircea Eliades "Shamanism- archaic techniques of ecstacy".

I have read Castanedas books before and they made a lot of sense to me but the shamanism described by others, Michael Harner for example (and also the siberian shaman explained by Eliade), seems to be very different, using drums and rituals. In Castanedas books it is clear that not everyone can become a shaman, they have to be chosen by the spirit, etc. Harner seems to be saying the exact opposite, that anyone and everyone can do it. He is even charging money to educate people in different levels of his "shamanism".

At the moment I am confused, perhaps about what shamanism once was and what it has become, and how? I am also confused about all the confusion (!) around shamanism, that scholars can't seem to agree on one definition for it and that the subject just causes a lot of debate and hot heads!! (like mine at the moment)

I would be very grateful if someone who knows more than me about shamanism could point me in some direction, as to what material could be interesting to read to better understand this.

 

[obyvatel]

Hi echo,
Laura's Wave series talks about shamanism in some detail. Have you read it?

http://cassiopaea.org/2011/02/10/the-wave-chapter-28%E2%80%A8-technicians-of-ecstasy%E2%80%A8%E2%80%A8-the-shamanic-initiation%E2%80%A8-of-the-knighted-ones-part-1%E2%80%A8/


http://cassiopaea.org/2011/02/10/the-wave-chapter-28%E2%80%A8-technicians-of-ecstasy%E2%80%A8%E2%80%A8-the-shamanic-initiation%E2%80%A8-of-the-knighted-ones-part-2/

 

[EmeraldHope]

Hello everyone,

I am completing a course on shamanism/ neo-shamanism as a part of my uni studies in comparative religion and while it has been interesting it has left me with more questions than answers. I am trying to wrap my head around the phenomenon of shamanism in an objective way. It seems that researchers either become shamans themselves and sell books or courses or keep a great intellectual distance to the tradition, which makes it seem like hocus-pocus or something that was necessary before modernism/post-modernism, "when people believed in fairies". The book in the course literature that I appreciated the most, that I know some of you have read, was Mircea Eliades "Shamanism- archaic techniques of ecstacy".

I have read Castanedas books before and they made a lot of sense to me but the shamanism described by others, Michael Harner for example (and also the siberian shaman explained by Eliade), seems to be very different, using drums and rituals. In Castanedas books it is clear that not everyone can become a shaman, they have to be chosen by the spirit, etc. Harner seems to be saying the exact opposite, that anyone and everyone can do it. He is even charging money to educate people in different levels of his "shamanism".

At the moment I am confused, perhaps about what shamanism once was and what it has become, and how? I am also confused about all the confusion (!) around shamanism, that scholars can't seem to agree on one definition for it and that the subject just causes a lot of debate and hot heads!! (like mine at the moment)

I would be very grateful if someone who knows more than me about shamanism could point me in some direction, as to what material could be interesting to read to better understand this.

Hi Echo,


Laura goes into shamanism in The Wave and in Secret History of The World. From what I have gathered in reading many things here on the forum and in books, the very first shamans communicated with the gods for the benefit of the tribe. These Shamans were usually women. At some point, something changed ( psychopathy, agriculture, cometary virus, etc) and then Shamans started to ascend to the sky to battle demons that threatened humanity.


At about the same time the goddess was being destroyed by monotheisim, shamanistic duties were taken over by men who did not necessarily have the genetics, not were they elected by the environment. At this point, corruption grew and plants ( dmt) and other substances were used to storm the gates of heaven for the ecstatic state. In place of women in both religion and shamanism, one sees ropes,ladders, tress, bridges, etc. The power of the mother is now controlled and dominated by these priests and psedu-shamans, who corrupt both the tradition and mankind.


Further damage has been done to the true shamanic bloodlines via grains, dairy, sugars, and other toxins. Many times it would seem schizophrenia may be a failed transmission due to this.


It may would be helpful to search the forum for shamanism and schizophrenia . Also search The Wave and Secret History for shamanism. Secret History is good also to understand how many things got twisted. Laura's articles on comets and this one in particular may help also: http://www.sott.net/articles/show/227222-The-Golden-Age-Psychopathy-and-the-Sixth-Extinction


I am going all off the top of my head here, so hope this helps.

 

[mkrnhr]

Harner seems to be saying the exact opposite, that anyone and everyone can do it. He is even charging money to educate people in different levels of his "shamanism".

There is obviously a conflict of interest here. If he had to say that shamanism abilities depend upon genetic profiles and epigenetics, he couldn't propose his business to anybody.

 

[Gimpy]

If you find 'classes' in shamanism etc...run in the other direction. Chances are its worthless.

Fwiw, I've never found anything useful whatsoever from a 'class' in anything esoteric. Ever.

To find solid information, its hard work. I've gone the 'go to the Elders of x, y, and z tradition' to find out answers. They didn't have anything to share but more questions, and a vague direction to head in....which amounted to, in essence, 'figure it out yourself, and good luck with that.'

Daenerys gave some good links to look at.

I think t he bottom line with shamanism is its in your DNA or its not, and we're learning that DNA is not the 'cut and dried' subject current science insists that it is.

The better question is why do you want to dig into the subject in the first place?

 

[echo]

If you find 'classes' in shamanism etc...run in the other direction. Chances are its worthless.

Fwiw, I've never found anything useful whatsoever from a 'class' in anything esoteric. Ever.

To find solid information, its hard work. I've gone the 'go to the Elders of x, y, and z tradition' to find out answers. They didn't have anything to share but more questions, and a vague direction to head in....which amounted to, in essence, 'figure it out yourself, and good luck with that.'

Daenerys gave some good links to look at.

I think t he bottom line with shamanism is its in your DNA or its not, and we're learning that DNA is not the 'cut and dried' subject current science insists that it is.

The better question is why do you want to dig into the subject in the first place?

Well.. I guess I'm interested in all the old traditions that carry the idea of a multidimensional universe. I have studied gnosticism in my comparative religion classes before. Castanedas books have fascinated me since I was a teenager and for me the understanding of what Lauras writings are about came through the concepts that are in the Castaneda series. FYI I'm not about to search out a drumming group to find out more about shamanism ;) what I was interested in was the history of shamanism and how it got to be the way it is. A lot of the literature in this course I'm taking is typical new agey, neo-shaman books (that we are supposed to analyze critically) and reading them kind of made me wonder what's what. It's easy to see that selling books is a way for the authors to make money and get famous, but I wondered about the tradition of drumming and going into trance that the neo-shamans have taken up, where it comes from and what it is they're actually doing.

Researchers (except the ones who decide to become shamans themselves) seem very critical of the neo-shamans but very uncritical of the old shamanic ways (of drumming and taking plants, i.e. what the neo-shamans are doing today).

The missing piece for me seems to be this fall from women to men shamans, and the rise of monotheism. Thank you Daenaerys for explaining the basic historical events. I didn't read all of Eliades book and I wonder if he mentioned this "fall"? I have a feeling that "Secret History.." will have a few more missing pieces, I haven't read it yet. I read the wave last year before I joined the forum, but I read it fast (out of excitement) and I guess some parts didn't sink in. I will read chapter 28 and the comet article again, thanks for the links!

 

[Aliana]

If you find 'classes' in shamanism etc...run in the other direction. Chances are its worthless.

Fwiw, I've never found anything useful whatsoever from a 'class' in anything esoteric. Ever.

To find solid information, its hard work. I've gone the 'go to the Elders of x, y, and z tradition' to find out answers. They didn't have anything to share but more questions, and a vague direction to head in....which amounted to, in essence, 'figure it out yourself, and good luck with that.'

Daenerys gave some good links to look at.

I think t he bottom line with shamanism is its in your DNA or its not, and we're learning that DNA is not the 'cut and dried' subject current science insists that it is.

The better question is why do you want to dig into the subject in the first place?

I would have to agree with Gimpy. I took Harner's course and became involved in shamanism groups in CA many years ago, before I knew better. I was searching and of course, California offers a cornucopia of experiences. It was interesting, but cannot say that I ever felt that I truly found anything of profound significance while practicing. I kept waiting for some breakthrough, and listened while others described amazing journeys. Perhaps, I don't have the requisite genetics, not to mention "playing" at shamanism in such a manner is dangerous.

While living in California and after taking this course, my life began to spiral down. I went through several job layoffs, my stress levels went through the roof and my migraines increased in both duration and frequency. In all fairness, my diet was abysmal as well.

However, if this "brand" of shamanism was so wonderful, one would suppose that my life would have improved. I eventually left California and there was no way to practice with others, so I gave it up. Then I was fortunate to find the Cassiopaean site where I learned of the dangers of such practices. I will never really know if this contributed to my horrible experiences and what lingering effects of this remain , but I certainly would not recommend it.

 

[EmeraldHope]

If you find 'classes' in shamanism etc...run in the other direction. Chances are its worthless.

Fwiw, I've never found anything useful whatsoever from a 'class' in anything esoteric. Ever.

To find solid information, its hard work. I've gone the 'go to the Elders of x, y, and z tradition' to find out answers. They didn't have anything to share but more questions, and a vague direction to head in....which amounted to, in essence, 'figure it out yourself, and good luck with that.'

Daenerys gave some good links to look at.

I think t he bottom line with shamanism is its in your DNA or its not, and we're learning that DNA is not the 'cut and dried' subject current science insists that it is.

The better question is why do you want to dig into the subject in the first place?

Well.. I guess I'm interested in all the old traditions that carry the idea of a multidimensional universe. I have studied gnosticism in my comparative religion classes before. Castanedas books have fascinated me since I was a teenager and for me the understanding of what Lauras writings are about came through the concepts that are in the Castaneda series. FYI I'm not about to search out a drumming group to find out more about shamanism ;) what I was interested in was the history of shamanism and how it got to be the way it is. A lot of the literature in this course I'm taking is typical new agey, neo-shaman books (that we are supposed to analyze critically) and reading them kind of made me wonder what's what. It's easy to see that selling books is a way for the authors to make money and get famous, but I wondered about the tradition of drumming and going into trance that the neo-shamans have taken up, where it comes from and what it is they're actually doing.

Researchers (except the ones who decide to become shamans themselves) seem very critical of the neo-shamans but very uncritical of the old shamanic ways (of drumming and taking plants, i.e. what the neo-shamans are doing today).

The missing piece for me seems to be this fall from women to men shamans, and the rise of monotheism. Thank you Daenaerys for explaining the basic historical events. I didn't read all of Eliades book and I wonder if he mentioned this "fall"? I have a feeling that "Secret History.." will have a few more missing pieces, I haven't read it yet. I read the wave last year before I joined the forum, but I read it fast (out of excitement) and I guess some parts didn't sink in. I will read chapter 28 and the comet article again, thanks for the links!

Just want to add, now that I think about it, that it could be that many of the southern tribes from the south always used male shamans- think of the aztecs for example and their bloody temples. In SHOTW Laura explains how the world was enlightened from the North, and was Dominated from the South. There are many threads that converge here, so I do not want to leave this in your mind as a strictly black and white thing. It goes back to the differences between the circle people and the triangle people, which you will learn in SHOTW.


But in a nut shell, it would seem if one follows it all back to Asianic Shaminism of the circle people, the original shamans ( christs) were women and it was genetic.

 

[Aliana]

One thing that I just remembered is that i had occasion to discuss Harner's higher level classes with practitioners and teachers. One of the "teachings" at these classes involved having someone tie up an apprentice with rope and let the "guides" untie this person during a journey!

Even then, I had enough presence of mind to think this was scary, however many did not! I don't even know what other strange things they practice in these classes.

Sadly, I do think most of the people involved are sincere and Harner's foundation is trying to help the native Shamans - so I think their intent is good, they just lack sufficient knowledge. OSIT.

 

[echo]

Just want to add, now that I think about it, that it could be that many of the southern tribes from the south always used male shamans- think of the aztecs for example and their bloody temples. In SHOTW Laura explains how the world was enlightened from the North, and was Dominated from the South. There are many threads that converge here, so I do not want to leave this in your mind as a strictly black and white thing. It goes back to the differences between the circle people and the triangle people, which you will learn in SHOTW.

But in a nut shell, it would seem if one follows it all back to Asianic Shaminism of the circle people, the original shamans ( christs) were women and it was genetic.

Thanks for additional info, I didn't perceive it as a 'black and white thing' and I understand it is more complicated, genetics, etc. I haven't heard of the concept of circle or triangle people so I guess I really should read SHOTW.

If you find 'classes' in shamanism etc...run in the other direction. Chances are its worthless.

Fwiw, I've never found anything useful whatsoever from a 'class' in anything esoteric. Ever.

To find solid information, its hard work. I've gone the 'go to the Elders of x, y, and z tradition' to find out answers. They didn't have anything to share but more questions, and a vague direction to head in....which amounted to, in essence, 'figure it out yourself, and good luck with that.'

Daenerys gave some good links to look at.

I think t he bottom line with shamanism is its in your DNA or its not, and we're learning that DNA is not the 'cut and dried' subject current science insists that it is.

The better question is why do you want to dig into the subject in the first place?

I would have to agree with Gimpy. I took Harner's course and became involved in shamanism groups in CA many years ago, before I knew better. I was searching and of course, California offers a cornucopia of experiences. It was interesting, but cannot say that I ever felt that I truly found anything of profound significance while practicing. I kept waiting for some breakthrough, and listened while others described amazing journeys. Perhaps, I don't have the requisite genetics, not to mention "playing" at shamanism in such a manner is dangerous.

While living in California and after taking this course, my life began to spiral down. I went through several job layoffs, my stress levels went through the roof and my migraines increased in both duration and frequency. In all fairness, my diet was abysmal as well.

However, if this "brand" of shamanism was so wonderful, one would suppose that my life would have improved. I eventually left California and there was no way to practice with others, so I gave it up. Then I was fortunate to find the Cassiopaean site where I learned of the dangers of such practices. I will never really know if this contributed to my horrible experiences and what lingering effects of this remain , but I certainly would not recommend it.

Sorry to hear about this experience aleana. Like I said, I wasn't planning on going into a drumming trance any time soon

Sorry again if this is the most obvious question ever, but why exactly is the trance dangerous?

One thing that I just remembered is that i had occasion to discuss Harner's higher level classes with practitioners and teachers. One of the "teachings" at these classes involved having someone tie up an apprentice with rope and let the "guides" untie this person during a journey!

Even then, I had enough presence of mind to think this was scary, however many did not! I don't even know what other strange things they practice in these classes.

Sadly, I do think most of the people involved are sincere and Harner's foundation is trying to help the native Shamans - so I think their intent is good, they just lack sufficient knowledge. OSIT.

Now, that's just weird!

 

[EmeraldHope]

Here is more on the circle people and the pyramid people:

http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=53

This distinction is introduced in Ancient Science and refers to an apparent split in social structure, religion, form of governance, architecture and art between different peoples of ancient history and prehistory.The circle people are generally found at northern latitudes and are presumably the builders of the megalithic sites such as are found all over Western Europe. The circle people have not left evidence of large cities, central governance or large scale agriculture or records of commercial transactions. They have left works of art which are generally diverse and creative, not corresponding to any rigid single format. The circle is seen as a symbol of reciprocity and cooperation as opposed to the pyramid which is seen as a symbol of hierarchy.
The pyramid people are generally found further south and are marked by a legacy of monumental architecture, such as the Egyptian and Central American pyramids. The pyramid is seen as a symbol of hierarchy, with a broad base and a narrow apex. Also such construction bespeaks centralized government, pooling resources from a large area, with fixed settlements and ownership of land. The art of the pyramid peoples is often strictly formalized and allows little room for individual creativity, take the Egyptian style of carving for an example.
Secret History argues that both peoples are descendants of different factions of an older, lost civilization, such as Atlantis. Both peoples appear to have possessed remnants of science and technology radically different from the modern one. Both pyramids and megalith sites are devices utilizing a sort of spiritual technology of ancient times.
Since those times, the secrets of the original culture are long lost and the control system has used both peoples for its own ends. The worldwide rise of a male dominator deity and the co-option of the nature goddess worship of prehistoric peoples are extensively discussed in Secret History. See also the Grail series at the Cassiopaea site.

Also, this article here: http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/Laura-Knight-Jadczyk/article-lkj-04-03-06-e.htm

 

[SeekinTruth]

It seems that the Shamanic tradition has gone through a long process of corruption like everything else. From my reading into it, it started out as specific bloodlines/genetic lines that had the inherent ability to interact with the hyperdimesional reality (that was carried over from "pre-fall" life -- i.e. being able to commune with hyperdimensional reality).

Reading Secret History will probably give the most in-depth understanding of the probable course of what happened over millenia to the tradition. Rereading the Wave series is also very helpful, as well as, searching the forum and cass.org for "shamanism."

 

[obyvatel]

[quote author=echo]
Sorry again if this is the most obvious question ever, but why exactly is the trance dangerous?
[/quote]

Trance bypasses the natural defense mechanisms (like using the frontal cortex to critically evaluate incoming impressions and data) which are inside us for some level of protection from non-physical realms. In the Sufi Path of Knowledge, Chittick writes

[quote author=Sufi Path Of Knowledge]
Nowadays most people interested in the spirituality of the East desire the "experience," though they may call what they are after "intimate communion with God." Those familiar with the standards and norms of spiritual experience set down by disciplined paths are usually appalled at the way Westerners seize upon any apparition from the domain outside of normal consciousness as a manifestation of the "spiritual." In fact there are innumerable realms in the unseen world, some of them far more dangerous than the worst jungles of the visible world. No person familiar with the teachings of Sufism would dare lay himself open to such forces.
[/quote]

This topic has been covered in depth by Laura. The Wave series would help. Also, the following article " A Survey Of Channeling" discusses related issues.
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/chan2.htm

 

[Esote]

According to their website, the Foundation for Shamanic Studies from Michael Harner is dedicated to teaching, preserving, and studying shamanic knowledge for the welfare of all.

"Helping to preserve shamanism where it is being threatened, and assisting its revival when invited, are critical dimensions of the Foundation's mission. The FSS has a network of specialists in shamanism throughout the world to help save indigenous shamanic knowledge in imminent danger of being lost. The FSS also responds to requests from native peoples to help revive and maintain their own shamanic traditions...
... Our Living Treasures designation provides an annual lifetime stipend to exceptionally distinguished indigenous shamans in less-developed countries where their age-old knowledge of shamanism and shamanic healing is in danger of extinction. Special care is given to providing the economic assistance necessary to allow these Living Treasures to pass on their knowledge to their people."

At first glance, sounds good to me, helpful and useful. It seems sincere. How hard to have enough insight to be able to reject it, and not be confused !

 

[Gimpy]

One thing that I just remembered is that i had occasion to discuss Harner's higher level classes with practitioners and teachers. One of the "teachings" at these classes involved having someone tie up an apprentice with rope and let the "guides" untie this person during a journey!

Even then, I had enough presence of mind to think this was scary, however many did not! I don't even know what other strange things they practice in these classes.

Sadly, I do think most of the people involved are sincere and Harner's foundation is trying to help the native Shamans - so I think their intent is good, they just lack sufficient knowledge. OSIT.

Tying up with rope is a Yuwipi thing...something the Plains Indians Spiritual People do. That comes from one kind of Spiritual tradition, and I'm not surprised to see it misused. I don't happen to care if this group has permission to 'use it' or not...its enough to tell me they're not to be trusted with anything. Life is hard enough on indigenous nations without that being added to it. I saw a lot of people getting hurt by this kind of stealing of techniques, and they would badger the elders to fix the mess they got themselves into...who needs that?

On a practical note, its not brain surgery to learn how to slip a rope. Houdini would be spinning hard enough in his grave over that one to sound like a fog horn.

Bottom line? Drums have to do with hypnotism. That is not a mystery, and I am always amazed that people think it is.

Apologies for sounding harsh.