Cycles and

[SeekinTruth]

Thank you, EmeraldHope. How difficult it is to communicate! Gurdjieff was right when he said that we do not understand each other, because the same words don't have the same meaning for everyone.

I don't see how I am giving the impression of seeming to be talking about non-being. Far from it. I am trying to lift the veil of duality and try to peek beyond, to see if there could be an Ultimate Absolute where there is freedom of every single level of materiality, from the very crude density of "only matter" to the utmost lightness of "only spirit", this last one being anyway a degree of materiality, though the most ethereal of all.

In my understanding, Densities 5 and 6 are purely ethereal, as well as 7th Density. There's no degree of materiality in those densities.

 

[whitecoast]

Thank you, EmeraldHope. How difficult it is to communicate! Gurdjieff was right when he said that we do not understand each other, because the same words don't have the same meaning for everyone.

I don't see how I am giving the impression of seeming to be talking about non-being. Far from it. I am trying to lift the veil of duality and try to peek beyond, to see if there could be an Ultimate Absolute where there is freedom of every single level of materiality, from the very crude density of "only matter" to the utmost lightness of "only spirit", this last one being anyway a degree of materiality, though the most ethereal of all.

That is seventh density. Union with the one, the reconciling of being and nothingness, and the harmonization of all the potentials of matter and spirit. An atom of the absolute in Mouravieff's terms has all the forces of the universe-- active, passive, and neutralizing --harmonized. Meaning all potentialities of it are contained therein. The realm of the Absolute, seventh density, has only one law in it. That law, I believe, is pure will, and pure freedom. Any divergence from pure will and pure freedom is by definition the imposition of other laws of control and limitation. All densities six and below are a dabbling of sorts in limitations by the Absolute. I guess it decided it got bored of being able to make anything real and unreal at a whim, so decided to relinquish some control and compartmentalize will to explore possibilities and learn. Who knows?

I think understanding a bit of systems theory may help a bit. Systems are sets of axioms, laws, and operations that combine and express themselves in unique ways. A system is considered to be embedded in another when all its axioms and operations can occur in the other, but not vice versa. The system of geometry is embedded in the system of arithmetic, for example. At the root of all systems there is the axiom that A is A, or the law of non-contradiction. I think the seventh density is the totally free density, where all that is possible and impossible exists, because it does not obey the law of non-contradiction. If there were things the law of one, that of pure will and pure freedom, could not do, like contradict itself, then it would not be pure will and pure freedom. If you got rid of A is A, you could make any statement or reality true or untrue. That is the quintessence of absolute will and power and freedom.

Consciousness cannot be created or destroyed; it can only become unconscious and reflect the will of consciousness. The law of non-contradiction makes it impossible for two states to exist in reality: that of total consciousness (consciousness by definition must be conscious of something, so must find itself in a reflection) and total unconsciousness (since it is an utter absurdity for consciousness to try and default and pretend that it does not exist). Again, seventh density has no problem with this. That is the definitive quality allowing its superposition of all that is possible and impossible. It is in reconciling the contradiction that the possible arrangements of consciousness and unconsciousness are explored by densities six and below.

There is nothing beyond seventh density, so that is what you are searching for. Anything "higher" than that, and you are essentially suggesting that there are things that absolute will and freedom, with literally zero limits, cannot accomplish. I think you can see how silly that is.

 

[ROEL]

My impression at this point is that we are all only expressing wishes and hopes. Nothing has been proven, but I guess that is the burden of 3rd density, i.e. living in states of ignorance of various degrees, but ignorance nonetheless. We talk about the higher densities as if we had experienced them. We say "this is how it is." We are merely repeating something that has been said to us, of which we have no proof.

And one of the things I hear (maybe it's only my distorted interpretation, since the same words have different meaning depending on who uses them) is that the various densities have always been. If so, there is nor has been Creation (there simply IS), and obviously then, no Creator, Originator, or any other such Generator. Therefore, in that line of thought, there is nothing beyond the veil, I am being told.

About densities, if this is how the Universe -with all its possible dimensions- is arranged, they are then all material to a degree, seventh being the least material of all (if immaterial it does not exist). I IMAGINE 7th (I will not say IT IS, because I can't prove it either) composed of the minutest units of "something", bearing all the strange names used by quantum physics.

 

[anart]

My impression at this point is that we are all only expressing wishes and hopes. Nothing has been proven, but I guess that is the burden of 3rd density, i.e. living in states of ignorance of various degrees, but ignorance nonetheless. We talk about the higher densities as if we had experienced them. We say "this is how it is." We are merely repeating something that has been said to us, of which we have no proof.

I think it's important to remember that what we discuss is a working hypothesis - we won't 'know' until we experience it. That is part and parcel of being in 3D.

Anyone who says, 'this is how it is' is lying to themselves.

And one of the things I hear (maybe it's only my distorted interpretation, since the same words have different meaning depending on who uses them) is that the various densities have always been. If so, there is nor has been Creation (there simply IS), and obviously then, no Creator, Originator, or any other such Generator. Therefore, in that line of thought, there is nothing beyond the veil, I am being told.

That is definitely your misinterpretation. First off, you're thinking of all of this in linear time - as if there even is an 'always been' - as if there is time outside of this experience. What it comes down to is that it is very difficult for the human mind to conceptualize a timeless state. Basically you're mind 'short circuits' around that and you end up thinking there is 'nothing beyond the veil' which couldn't be farther from the truth, to my understanding.

About densities, if this is how the Universe -with all its possible dimensions- is arranged, they are then all material to a degree, seventh being the least material of all (if immaterial it does not exist).

No, that is not my current understanding. After the 4th level, there is no more materiality, from what I understand. Perhaps it will help to think of materiality as energy moving very, very slowly - with increasing degrees of freedom that are the result of increasing knowledge/awareness, energy is no longer bound in the material state - it's all tied to awareness. I doubt that clarifies, but fwiw.

I IMAGINE 7th (I will not say IT IS, because I can't prove it either) composed of the minutest units of "something", bearing all the strange names used by quantum physics.

I think you might be trying to fit a materialist's mind set around a non-material reality - same thing with the mindset of linear time. Basically, you 'can't get there from here' - it takes an entirely different way of conceptualizing it, from what I understand.

 

[ROEL]

Thank you, Anart. I am left with a bittersweet taste, though. This is because, as you say quite correctly, we are discussing hypothesis here. So I may be off the mark, but you also cannot prove the accuracy of your position. We are both left with what little we have been able to grasp of Reality, which in any case is incomplete for both of us. And none can say 'I have understood more,' with absolute certainty.

 

[anart]

Thank you, Anart. I am left with a bittersweet taste, though. This is because, as you say quite correctly, we are discussing hypothesis here. So I may be off the mark, but you also cannot prove the accuracy of your position. We are both left with what little we have been able to grasp of Reality, which in any case is incomplete for both of us. And none can say 'I have understood more,' with absolute certainty.

Isn't that the inherent nature of human existence? It certainly doesn't mean that a person shouldn't keep trying to figure it out, always ready to discard a hypothesis when new data comes along, and always adding more data to the hypothesis one currently has. In other words, I don't think there's any reason for it to be 'bittersweet', though I understand why you feel that way, certainty is quite a comfortable thing. However, this reality is what it is and we are where we are. The most we can do is continue to strive for objective knowledge in everything we do - I can think of no other way to eventually reach it! ;)

 

[RobertB]

The Hubble Space Telescope was given a primary task: To see back to the beginning of Creation. It can't get there.
They have improved the cameras sent up with greater sensitivity 3 times and still cannot get there.
If it were phsyically possible, a Space Telescope might be able to see far enough to catch the back end of itself staring off into Infinity. It might do this if it was pointed in exactly the right direction, which brings up nearly infinite choices.
Then there is the problem of the position in which it is placed. It has to be where nothing is in the way of the total line-of-sight. More choices. And it might even be a futile gesture, for this Universe may have been contructed so as to prevent such a thing from being possible. I have a suspicion that the latter case is Reality, for light is now being shown to have a half-life, meaning that it will fade off faster than it can travel the ultimate distance, and the goal is never reached due to halving 300,000 km/sec to reach zero.
This veil is quite the structure, I have to admit.
I'll just have to wait and see.