Darwin's Black Box - Michael J. Behe and Intelligent Design

#16
Thank you for the recommendation. While waiting for the book to arrive I watched this little documentary.
It adds some background to the public debate about intelligent design.


Just watched the video. It was the strangest thing but I got quite emotional. I kept thinking of what the C's have said
You are an experiment and you wouldn't exist if someone hadn't thought you up. Some higher density scientists working in their laboratories i.e. earth, looking in their petri dishes at their bacteria i.e. us. And they are all coming to see how we perform in the big show. Of course this wouldn't be complete without a few mad scientists creating Lizzies, Nephalim, etc. That of course is my 3d thinking. Thank you Maiko. Can't wait for the book to arrive after so many interesting things have been said.
 

Gaby

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#17
I finished the book last night and it is simply the best discussion on Intelligent Design I've ever read. Behe's call for common sense on the topic is the best grounded writing and the most refreshing reading I've done, helping to put into perspective all biochemical complexity. Wonderful! This is definitely a scientific inquiry worthy of pursuing and there's no reason why scientists should lose it when "supernatural"/intelligent design explanations are taken into account. All the data points to it and ignoring the obvious is what seems to be driving everybody nuts. Others who get away with the theory that doesn't take into account Intelligent Design are just ignorant of the level of complexity behind living beings. Looking forward for more of his common sense!
 

whitecoast

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#18
This is definitely a scientific inquiry worthy of pursuing and there's no reason why scientists should lose it when "supernatural"/intelligent design explanations are taken into account.
Don't you know, Gaby, that as soon as you prove that nihilistic materialism is false that all the world religions will immediately start engaging in holy wars to establish theocratic supremacy, possibly to the point of blowing up the planet? That behind every astrology chart, new-agey self help book, and rosary there's a dark religious impulse ready to throttle the intellect and compassion and humanism out of everyone and return us to the dark ages? Possibly even the caves?

That is more or less the fear of these materialists and secular atheists. They see anything categorically more problematic and destructive simply on the basis that it acknowledges the existence of non-physical information.
 

Gaby

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#19
Don't you know, Gaby, that as soon as you prove that nihilistic materialism is false that all the world religions will immediately start engaging in holy wars to establish theocratic supremacy, possibly to the point of blowing up the planet?
That was one of the great things about this book. It doesn't have to go there. Behe's ability to express simple understandings is what I liked the most compared to other recommended readings in this topic. He could be like someone everyone could say was the best teacher they ever had in school.

For me, sitting down to read this book was like the needed refreshing reading in order to feel sane after hanging around hopelessly in a toxic hysterical environment.
 

Laura

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#20
For me, sitting down to read this book was like the needed refreshing reading in order to feel sane after hanging around hopelessly in a toxic hysterical environment.
Yes. And more than that, it made me see that we most definitely have not been wasting our time on the Cs and all the research they have inspired. The C's cosmology ends up, after reading all the Evolution/genetics/molecular biology material, as being the best explanation for all of it that is possible at present.
 

aragorn

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#21
Just finished the book (DBB), and it was an excellent read! Definitely a lot faster to read than The 5th Option. I especially appreciated the overview of what the scientific papers have to offer-which is close to zero. I’ve read of Dawkins before, and Behe’s remarks makes it clear that Dawkins is...well probably a seriously disturbed individual.

Funny, but having read DBB makes me want to go back and read Schiller, since Schiller made promises in the beginning of the book that the Rational Design Theory is scientifically testable, and I’m curious to read what he has to say about that.

Anyways, reading both books makes it crystal clear that both the ‘chemical soup’ theory for life’s origin and gradual evolution (excluding small variations in species) are nonsense.
 

genero81

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#22
I finished the book last night and it is simply the best discussion on Intelligent Design I've ever read. Behe's call for common sense on the topic is the best grounded writing and the most refreshing reading I've done, helping to put into perspective all biochemical complexity. Wonderful! This is definitely a scientific inquiry worthy of pursuing and there's no reason why scientists should lose it when "supernatural"/intelligent design explanations are taken into account. All the data points to it and ignoring the obvious is what seems to be driving everybody nuts. Others who get away with the theory that doesn't take into account Intelligent Design are just ignorant of the level of complexity behind living beings. Looking forward for more of his common sense!
I received the book yesterday and I'm making my way through it. So far it has a similar feel to 'Evolution 2.0'
I agree aragorn, not a fan of Dawkins
 

aragorn

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#23
Related to the discussion, I'd like to highly recommend yet another book. While browsing the 'Customers who bought this item also bought' list (related to DBB) on Amazon, I found this gem:

Heretic: One Scientist's Journey from Darwin to Design
by Matti Leisola & Jonathan Witt (editor)
Link to Kindle-version
Link to Paperback-version

About Leisola: Matti Leisola, Sc.D., is a bioengineer and former dean of Chemistry and Material Sciences at Helsinki University of Technology. An expert in enzymes and rare sugars, he’s published 140 peer-reviewed articles and won the Latsis Prize-ETH Zurich.

What's most fascinating about this book (I've now read ca 80% of it) are the many examples Leisola gives about the responses and discussions he has had with top scientists around the world. He has met, debated and had private discussions with many experts, ever since the 70's. The way he describes the many attacks and ridicule he has faced when questioning the ideas of Neo-Darwinism is enlightening, and frightening! The way the 'scientific community' behaves is clearly driven by pathological ideological 'thinking'. Leisola also describes the responses he has got from the media and religious leaders. He also describes several cases of colleagues, who in private (because they don't dare to say it publicly) admit the flaws of Darwinism.

Leisola is a world leading expert in organic chemistry and has specialized in enzymes. In his book he fills in some gaps I had from reading Behe and Schiller regarding the weakness of the theory of evolution/Darwinism and origin of life. So in that sense, it's a good addition to the already existing literature. It's also, like Behe, a moderately quick read – there's not too much complicated scientific jargon.

Reading Leisola, I started to wonder about how 'messy' the whole debate is. We have many groups with their own motives:

1. The atheist-materialistic Neo-Darwinists, who represent the 'scientific consensus' and who viciously attack (and even destroy) any scientist who dares to question Darwinism, and who god forbid talks about intelligent design.

2. The open minded scientists like Behe or Leisola, who want to get to the truth of the matter, and who see the clear and undeniable signs of intelligent design in nature. What is a bit strange about some of these people (I don't know about Behe), is that many of them are very religious, and they seem adherent of the Bible. I've checked some of the Twitter accounts of the scientists at Discovery Institute (proponents of ID), and many of the people they follow (like at least 50%) are 'Jesus followers' and/or 'Pastors' etc.

I don't see this necessarily as anything negative, as long as their science is sound, but it makes you wonder why these smart individuals haven't applied critical thinking in their reading of the Bible. Plus, it isn't strategically smart to openly be at the same time a top scientist, ID-supporter and a 'Jesus follower'. It just gives more ammunition to the enemy, osit. However, one possibility might be (as Leisola implies) is that the more you research the details of the cell and their irreducible complexity, and since you're not open to the idea of e.g. 'alien manipulation from higher dimensions', the more you start thinking that some sort of 'God' is behind it all. Or, if you think of 'alien manipulation', it might scare you, and you start to seek refuge in 'Jesus'.

3. Open minded scientists (like in point 2.) who dare not talk against Darwinism, because thy fear the repercussions. They might in private talk more openly about their doubts regarding evolution etc.

4. Religious creationists who, surprisingly, are at the same time supporters of Darwin's theory of evolution and natural selection. Leisola explains this strange combination with the following: many Church representatives are happy with 'keeping the truce' with science and preserving the status quo of 'let the scientists do their scientific things, and we do our spiritual things'. It's a deal and a pact where the Church avoids debate, questioning and attacks by 'admitting' that Darwin's theories are true.

5. Religious creationists who are against Darwin's ideas, and who are super excited about guys like Leisola or Behe, because they, in their mind, support the idea of an almighty God with their talks about ID. Unfortunately, these religious fanatics can be used as a 'tar-baby' to lump the proponents of ID with the 'crazy religious creationists'. Reading Leisola, this can happen because the universities and other scientific institutions do not allow any debates or discussions to be arranged in their facilities – that's a big no, no! So, instead, the proponents of ID have to take the second best option of arranging their discussions at some church facility, and in the worst case IMO, with listeners who are only 'Jesus followers'.

###

Lastly, I want to throw in the idea that I've been thinking of how 4D STS manipulation might play a role in this. If you look at some of the debates between the two parties (e.g. on YouTube), you can sense with the Neo-Darwinists the familiar 'flavor' and mode of speaking that you sense with e.g. the SJW-radical-leftist types. It's almost like they're not human, and with that I mean (like Peterson has pointed out) that they aren't saying anything original that comes from their own thinking – it's just robotic, automated and pathological ideological drivel. And what's most scaring, is the underpinning, somewhat veiled, vehement contempt and dare I say evil that some of these people are showing.

So, what I'm getting at, is that perhaps the 4D STS 'overlords' are in various ways advancing Neo-Darwinism and manipulating the thought patterns of some scientists, because they see the ideas of ID as a serious threat. As long as people think that life is 'just an accident' and there's no meaning in life, because everything is just a result of randomness, the masses are easier to steer and manipulate. If they would start to think otherwise, that might expose the 'man behind the curtains'. And, this might also tie into the attacks and resistance that Jordan Peterson has endured – he is trying to help people find more meaning in their lives and to be more responsible and critical in their thinking.
 

luc

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#24
Thanks aragorn for the recommendation and summary, and I think you are spot-on in your analysis of the different "factions".

So, what I'm getting at, is that perhaps the 4D STS 'overlords' are in various ways advancing Neo-Darwinism and manipulating the thought patterns of some scientists, because they see the ideas of ID as a serious threat. As long as people think that life is 'just an accident' and there's no meaning in life, because everything is just a result of randomness, the masses are easier to steer and manipulate. If they would start to think otherwise, that might expose the 'man behind the curtains'. And, this might also tie into the attacks and resistance that Jordan Peterson has endured – he is trying to help people find more meaning in their lives and to be more responsible and critical in their thinking.
Yes, I think whoever is in charge (and even if it's only a deep-entrenched ideology) seems absolutely terrified of the ID idea gaining ground. Once people ditch NeoDarwism, the realization that strict materiliasm is wrong hits them with full force. This could radically change everything IMO, and it's already slowly happening. Until now, the PTB could count on the religions to "suck those people in" and neutralize them. And while this still works in a way, some people are waking up: on the Atheist side, it's people like Peterson who really speak to them and plant doubts regarding the orthodoxy. On the religious side, you have the ID types who begin to marry science and religion. What's still missing is the hyperdimensional aspect, and an honest critique of religions based on genuine interest (as opposed to cheap shots at religions), but heck, even that is increasingly part of the discussion! So all in all, I'm hopeful at the moment that at least for a certain percentage of humanity, things are moving in the right direction.
 

luc

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#25
Currently reading Behe's book - what a great read! Even if you already know some of the arguments, it really provides a deeper understanding of life and why Neo Darwinism is so utterly ridiculous.

But I keep thinking about what this means for all those evolutionary arguments so popular these days in psychology, i.e. "we evolved to do this or that, because it had an advantage", like in the discussion about men and women, tribal behavior and so on, and generally when talking about different species. Surely, just because the "classic" Darwinian story doesn't make sense, we shouldn't toss that all out, right?

My current understanding goes something like this: Evolution is not a purely mechanical process; that is impossible. Rather, some form of mind, or intelligence, runs through the entire material world. So for example, our tribal tendencies didn't "evolve" by accident because some guys "randomly" had an advantage engaging in such behavior, which then was "preserved" in biology by natural selection. Rather, these guys (or rather animals) at some point decided to "try it out" - "hey, let's band together, wouldn't that be a good idea?" (Of course, that decision wasn't explicitly spelled out on a whiteboard, but happened only semi-consciously or unconsciously.) And it might be the case that such "decisions" or ideas come about as the result of a combination between "thinking" on the part of the creatures and information flowing in from the information field; a combination of effort and a little help from higher dimensions? This in turn helped these creatures survive, so it became kind of like a "habit of the greater mind" as Sheldrake might say.

But there is also an interface between biology and the mind: these "mind habits" influence biological systems and create order, leading to changes in biology, DNA and so on. The material world "rearranges" itself when information flows in. This means that our "evolved traits" also get encoded biologically. I think the "Swiss Army Knife" in Evolution 2.0 might give some clues as to how this encoding or physical manifestation takes place, i.e the biological end of the equation. It's kind of the interface between the information field and the material world. Seen in this light, there is evolution, it's just very different from the materialistic evolution that Neo Darwinism promotes: it's an evolution based on a world where consciousness/intelligence runs through the whole universe. Hence we do have "evolved traits" and natural selection does play a role, but it's very, very different from the Darwinian story. FWIW
 

seek10

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#29
Thank you for the recommendation. While waiting for the book to arrive I watched this little documentary.
It adds some background to the public debate about intelligent design.

Just watched the video. It was the strangest thing but I got quite emotional. I kept thinking of what the C's have said
You are an experiment and you wouldn't exist if someone hadn't thought you up. Some higher density scientists working in their laboratories i.e. earth, looking in their petri dishes at their bacteria i.e. us. And they are all coming to see how we perform in the big show. Of course this wouldn't be complete without a few mad scientists creating Lizzies, Nephalim, etc. That of course is my 3d thinking. Thank you Maiko. Can't wait for the book to arrive after so many interesting things have been said.
I haven't read the book yet but have my kindle copy. I watched the video today found impressive, informative and well made. I didn't realize that Darwin theory is their sacred cow and it took so long for "Intelligence Design" to be acceptable. It make sense in view of recent leftist nihilistic view point. thank you for sharing
 

genero81

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#30
Lastly, I want to throw in the idea that I've been thinking of how 4D STS manipulation might play a role in this. If you look at some of the debates between the two parties (e.g. on YouTube), you can sense with the Neo-Darwinists the familiar 'flavor' and mode of speaking that you sense with e.g. the SJW-radical-leftist types. It's almost like they're not human, and with that I mean (like Peterson has pointed out) that they aren't saying anything original that comes from their own thinking – it's just robotic, automated and pathological ideological drivel. And what's most scaring, is the underpinning, somewhat veiled, vehement contempt and dare I say evil that some of these people are showing.
Yeah, I kind of feel sorry for them now. That question has been exercising me for a little while; why would anyone want to believe there's no meaning or purpose to it all? I think it gives them a twisted ego boost. "I'm a realist. I don't have my head in the clouds. I'm a free thinker." etc. More like, I'm a no thinker! lol Then they have the audacity to be condescending about it. They don't realize how foolish they look to someone who's done some real thinking on the matter.
 
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