David Bowie Dead at 69

[Renaissance]

where do you see I am assuming - "he's a profound mystery-man."? Maybe you are assuming that if I think if someone can be wanderer I am automatically giving profound connotation? ... but I m not ... as much as I know the trick with the idea of the wanderer is that they can be serving STS or STO forces, depend on their awareness of things ... also building of higher centers, from what I learned so far, doesn't mean that it is automatically something that leads one person to STO orientation ... specially if that happened thorough intuitive, but not guided process, without realy knowing that it happens, it can lead to "wrong" crystallization of hydrogens, if I remember right ... maybe from my stile of writing, where is obvious that I have sort of "adoration", better to say intrigue, for the "mystery" behind his work, you assuming that I automatically also think it is profound ... or maybe I am mistaking that word profound giving automatically positive connotations?

By narrowing in on a particular word and going into various interpretations, I think you're avoiding the feedback given to you and it comes across as playing games with people. This is actually pretty similar to your ideas of art and a good example of why this type of ambiguous thinking isn't helpful in trying to see the world or given situations as they are. It seems like a susceptibility towards the purely subjective.

 

[striveforselflessness]

without direct knowledge of occult of spiritual teachings ...

The Vigilante Citizen has put together a really nice bit of well-supported analysis that is very balanced and fair and enlightening on the occult aspect of David Bowie without drawing any conclusions for the reader.

_http://vigilantcitizen.com/musicbusiness/occult-universe-david-bowie-meaning-blackstar/

That quoted portion is not from me, but that is a great article.

I do wonder if Bowie and the director, though, are unable to connect these dots: alter egos, Gnosticism, etc? Consider the interview linked on the previous page (http://noisey.vice.com/blog/david-bowie-blackstar-video-johan-renck-director-interview): looking at the bigger picture is the work of "conspiracy theorists," the director instead encourages us to look at each image separately. He could wiseacre for hours about a woman with a tail. Isn't that difficult to do, stripped of context? Or is it a symbol of Crowley, who had done it for him, and he was regurgitating? Anyway, it is possible that it is unconscious for Bowie, that he is merely putting all this in because it is "sexy" as the director says. Consider also:

[quote author=vice.com]There was a teaser out on the Internet, and the comments on there said it was sacrilege, being derogatory to Jesus on the cross.

That’s great publicity.
Of course! But it didn’t even cross our minds. [/quote]

It doesn't even cross their minds that portraying mindless automatons on crosses could seem antagonistic to Christianity? Then perhaps there is no gnosticism in this. Blackstar is probably another of Bowie's alter-egos, like that vigilante citizen says, which he assumes to give a conclusion to his "possessed" life's story, begun by drugs and confusion.

In response to solarmind, I don't know. I figured I put it in a way that revised what you said to a point where you didn't recognize it. Is that true?

 

[Deleted member 11729]

where do you see I am assuming - "he's a profound mystery-man."? Maybe you are assuming that if I think if someone can be wanderer I am automatically giving profound connotation? ... but I m not ... as much as I know the trick with the idea of the wanderer is that they can be serving STS or STO forces, depend on their awareness of things ... also building of higher centers, from what I learned so far, doesn't mean that it is automatically something that leads one person to STO orientation ... specially if that happened thorough intuitive, but not guided process, without realy knowing that it happens, it can lead to "wrong" crystallization of hydrogens, if I remember right ... maybe from my stile of writing, where is obvious that I have sort of "adoration", better to say intrigue, for the "mystery" behind his work, you assuming that I automatically also think it is profound ... or maybe I am mistaking that word profound giving automatically positive connotations?

By narrowing in on a particular word and going into various interpretations, I think you're avoiding the feedback given to you and it comes across as playing games with people. This is actually pretty similar to your ideas of art and a good example of why this type of ambiguous thinking isn't helpful in trying to see the world or given situations as they are. It seems like a susceptibility towards the purely subjective.

have to say that I don't understand? :O

 

[Deleted member 11729]

In response to solarmind, I don't know. I figured I put it in a way that revised what you said to a point where you didn't recognize it. Is that true?

don't know ... yea interview is just saying "we have no clue why and what we do" ... so don't know, if we are taking it like a proof of reality behind their work, than they are confirming that they are just machines giving tons of ridles to people to play around without having a clue how they came ot ideas for that ridles, and without a clue where it can take them. Must to say that I am not quite convinced with this interview and neglecting of wish to send some other message, apart from nicely moving images and well produced music with some "random" lyrics ;)

just started to read this, interesting begining, but I didn't read much so far ... so maybe it is crap, or maybe it is interesting, I don't know _http://www.parareligion.ch/2010/bowiegrail.htm

 

[striveforselflessness]

In response to solarmind, I don't know. I figured I put it in a way that revised what you said to a point where you didn't recognize it. Is that true?

don't know ... yea interview is just saying "we have no clue why and what we do" ... so don't know, if we are taking it like a proof of reality behind their work, than they are confirming that they are just machines giving tons of ridles to people to play around without having a clue how they came ot ideas for that ridles, and without a clue where it can take them. Must to say that I am not quite convinced with this interview and neglecting of wish to send some other message, apart from nicely moving images and well produced music with some "random" lyrics ;)

Oh sorry, I was referring to Bowie being a channel. I shouldn't have put it at the end of that post, my bad. You do state there is a possibility of him maybe just advancing entropic/confused ideas without awareness, here:

as much as I know the trick with the idea of the wanderer is that they can be serving STS or STO forces, depend on their awareness of things ... also building of higher centers, from what I learned so far, doesn't mean that it is automatically something that leads one person to STO orientation ... specially if that happened thorough intuitive, but not guided process, without realy knowing that it happens, it can lead to "wrong" crystallization of hydrogens, if I remember right

So the positive connotation behind "profound man of mystery" may not apply.

Yeah, in an interview it could have been difficult to get the right ideas across, without contradicting the interviewer and doing his best to use the right language and not going too deep into ideas he may have used, so that he doesn't offend one side or the other (or get into a debate he doesn't want to get into). Analyzing what he says there may not be too useful on my part.

 

[BHelmet]

I do wonder if Bowie and the director, though, are unable to connect these dots: alter egos, Gnosticism, etc? Consider the interview linked on the previous page ..... looking at the bigger picture is the work of "conspiracy theorists," the director instead encourages us to look at each image separately. ..... Or is it a symbol of Crowley, who had done it for him, and he was regurgitating? Anyway, it is possible that it is unconscious for Bowie, that he is merely putting all this in because it is "sexy" as the director says. etc...

Hi - I don't buy what the director is saying for a second. Isn't he the one who said, hey, Crowley was actually a swell guy who was just misunderstood? Sympathy for the Psychopath. I think the director is laying a smoke screen with his comments. Of course we can't really know - but isn't that the benefit of the doubt psychopaths always give themselves - plausible deniability? Can't admit the truth so just point off in another direction.

Bowie excuses himself for his many revealing comments about fascism and Hitler in a similar way. "Oops, I was crazy on drugs. (I still want you to like me {so I can continue to exploit my position})" But the pictures tell a story.

China Girl:

I stumble into town just like a sacred cow
Visions of swasticas in my head
Plans for everyone
It's in the white of my eyes

Unconscious of it or not, I see him as being aligned with the STS dudes. No (Manley) Hall Pass.

Harsh on my part? Yeah. Do I really, really know? ...Can't be absolutely sure, I was never in his presence. (and there is that benefit of doubt that psychopaths are so keenly aware of) But, I try to avoid subjecting my soul to music sourced from the black hole sun. And if I do, I know I need to lash myself to the mast of knowledge, which protects, to resist the siren songs of entropy.

 

[Deleted member 11729]

Unconscious of it or not, I see him as being aligned with the STS dudes. No (Manley) Hall Pass.

Harsh on my part? Yeah. Do I really, really know? ...Can't be absolutely sure, I was never in his presence. (and there is that benefit of doubt that psychopaths are so keenly aware of) But, I try to avoid subjecting my soul to music sourced from the black hole sun. And if I do, I know I need to lash myself to the mast of knowledge, which protects, to resist the siren songs of entropy.

Didn't know about his praising Hitler and other stuff, didn't read Crowley either ... actually my knowledge of occult is so basic, I was always kind of scared to deal with it anyhow, but sure was bumping from thing to thing on a surface level, as before cass web page I just didn't feel that I want to dig deep around that subjects at any other resource ... thank you for pointing that out, I did a quick research, but yes totally agree that once aware of that influences in his work, it will bring another perspective to his "mysterious" work ... actually yes nice way to lead astray by nice music and extravagant clothing and videos ... obviously I need to do more research around that to come to more objective conclusion, so maybe I understood Renaissance now better that instead of researching around I was subjectively projecting my assumption of "opennes", and I let my self lead astray by it, out of lack of knowledge ...

Also this conversation here made me think more about art as a tool of illusion and seductive manipulation ... where is the line between those who worked on the other side?!? .... :O ... well many questions around stuff that made me feel enthusiastic, obviously needs more work on them from my side. Still a long way on the road of understanding things that formulated my life in the past ....

 

[BHelmet]

Also this conversation here made me think more about art as a tool of illusion and seductive manipulation ... where is the line between those who worked on the other side?!? .... :O ... well many questions around stuff that made me feel enthusiastic, obviously needs more work on them from my side. Still a long way on the road of understanding things that formulated my life in the past ....

Thanks for the open minded willingness to reevaluate. That is always good tool of learning. I have had to reassess many of my early heroes and stances. FYI here are the comments in question:

PLAYBOY: You’ve often said that you believe very strongly in fascism. Yet you also claim you’ll one day run for Prime Minister of England. More media manipulation?

BOWIE: Christ, everything is a media manipulation. I’d love to enter politics. I will one day. I’d adore to be Prime Minister. And, yes, I believe very strongly in fascism. The only way we can speed up the sort of liberalism that’s hanging foul in the air at the moment is to speed up the progress of a right-wing, totally dictatorial tyranny and get it over as fast as possible. People have always responded with greater efficiency under a regimental leadership. A liberal wastes time saying, “Well, now, what ideas have you got?” Show them what to do, for God’s sake. If you don’t, nothing will get done. I can’t stand people just hanging about. Television is the most successful fascist, needless to say. Rock stars are fascists, too. Adolf Hitler was one of the first rock stars.

PLAYBOY: How so?

BOWIE: Think about it. Look at some of his films and see how he moved. I think he was quite as good as Jagger. :P It’s astounding. And, boy, when he hit that stage, he worked an audience. Good God! He was no politician. He was a media artist himself. He used politics and theatrics and created this thing that governed and controlled the show for those 12 years. The world will never see his like. He staged a country.

Really, I would like to be Prime Minister, but I think I’d have to set up my own country first. I don’t want to be Prime Minister of the old country. I’d have to create the state that I wish to live in first. I dream of one day buying companies and television stations, owning and controlling them.

 

[striveforselflessness]

Harsh on my part? Yeah. Do I really, really know? ...Can't be absolutely sure, I was never in his presence. (and there is that benefit of doubt that psychopaths are so keenly aware of) But, I try to avoid subjecting my soul to music sourced from the black hole sun. And if I do, I know I need to lash myself to the mast of knowledge, which protects, to resist the siren songs of entropy.

I have some of the same impressions. I did say the director came across as making excuses in the interview, whether he was or not I don't know.

Best to err on the side of caution, especially given the subjectivity in his art, as many here have deftly shown.

Edit: That China Girl find is very telling! I like him less and less.

 

[BHelmet]

It's an odd thing - many psychopaths are very likable - until you cross them, of course. Caveat: I am not saying I know he was a psychopath. Just looking at the clues. STS for sure, is my guess. A good lesson in the seductiveness and allure of all the service to self that results in limos, fame, sex, unbridled self-expression and the power of hypnotizing and interacting with your fans in the guise of art and creative genius. Whew. (Worldly Success, to tie it into the thread on meritocracy.)

 

[Deleted member 11729]

Thanks for the open minded willingness to reevaluate. That is always good tool of learning. I have had to reassess many of my early heroes and stances.

o yes ... :) I am glad I deleted many so far, specially Dalia Lama, after learning from here, as I newer actually was sure what to do and how to feel about him .. so as D.B. and many other NYC based artist from that generator are so associated with him, for that reasons I started to be kind of reserved toward their work, his work, work of Laurie Anderosn, Lou Read, and others ... as it just crossed my mind, how is it possible that if they are not of STS orientation, that they didn't crossed their minds to dig deeper, and get to know facts ... but ... eh .. thank you for bringing this on ... I'll definitely do a bit more deeper research about the popular culture I like from a different angle, trying to minimize my enthusiasm about things I like there ( most of the time what I appreciate is some kind of abstract elegance and sort of unusual "sound" and mix of lyrics ) ...

so far today I did a bit of reading and thinking, and what comes to my mind is to take a bit more analytic look towards a group of artists that I like where D.B. belongs too, as they are all also friends, so now, eh this discussion here made me think to try to see if there is a kind of a "bound" that makes few of them, let say a group of up to 10 various artists of that generation, to be "influenced" by the same STS higher source, sort of to form one "collective" appearance or "collective mind projection", with a twist to just look unique, to more easily fish for freedom and individuality loving souls like mine ... o well ... life is strange ... any way it was for me surprising that topic about his death even appear on this forum, and I didn't have any intention to search more about him, but now I see it will be better for me to clear that "room" from unnecessary trash ...



and thank you for the quotes about his political aspirations ... didn't know about that either ... eh ... sounds like total egomaniac ...

 

[striveforselflessness]

It's an odd thing - many psychopaths are very likable - until you cross them, of course. Caveat: I am not saying I know he was a psychopath. Just looking at the clues. STS for sure, is my guess. A good lesson in the seductiveness and allure of all the service to self that results in limos, fame, sex, unbridled self-expression and the power of hypnotizing and interacting with your fans in the guise of art and creative genius. Whew. (Worldly Success, to tie it into the thread on meritocracy.)

That sounds fine to me. I don't doubt in any case he is what is described as a tramp, clearly he was one of the more prominent ones who mistook higher values for being a "provocateur."

A few things I might excuse him for/give him the benefit of the doubt (drugs, he apologized/said some things were a mistake, has a black wife). Much of what his racist comments and proclivity for being provocative really stem from is his fascination with a certain kind of symbol - even just the aesthetic aspect, for some reason - so that he was inspired by the occult and even by nazism for a period of years (some of which are blanked out of his memory, and look what it is that he chooses to help him dissociate). Then he finds rather unappealing images as "sexual." In short, he's a different sort of cat.

He could wiseacre for hours about a woman with a tail. Isn't that difficult to do, stripped of context? Or is it a symbol of Crowley, who had done it for him, and he was regurgitating?

And I just want to mention he didn't say that and that came from me skimming his words

Edited for clarity

 

[beetlemaniac]

I listened to a radio show commemorating David Bowie with my father yesterday. The hosts did hold him in high regard. My father told me of his fond memories of David Bowie's music. I was impressed by his foresight about the internet. After reading this thread and that article on Vigilant Citizen, I'm getting a pretty disgusting feeling about this man. The last two songs released before his death (talk about timing) just seems like an eerie way to cement his legacy in the collective mind. Kind of like setting up a bank account on this planet for absorbing the energy of earthlings like a kind of demi-god.

In any case, being influenced by the likes of Aleister Crowley can't be good -- there is the famous excerpt from the book The Harmonious Circle by historian James Webb which talks about Crowley as a guest at the Prieure (where Gurdjieff taught in France, I think) and Gurdjieff giving him a mouthful for being a filthy man as he about to leave. However, I don't know if the exchange as recorded is accurate. But I digress.

 

[wopthedo]

The most baffling thing about this song concerns the drums : they are out-of-place, ruin the entire song, sound 'amateur', and, considering how good Bowie was as an arranger, WHY are they there?

 

[Cosmos]

Well those two articles could certainly explain Bowies very strange and creepy music videos:

Jonathan King "Bowie abused children too I was there":

Jonathan King "Bowie abused children too I was there"

Convicted paedophile Jonathan King said the BBC turned a blind eye to alleged complaints about Bowie because he was such a huge star.
He claimed the late music legend had sex "with many more young people than Blackburn, Savile and the rest of the BBC DJs added together".

Jonathan King claims BBC ignored abuse claims about David Bowie

Writing on his website King of Hits, King said the Dame Janet Smith inquiry into sex abuse at the Corporation had missed vital evidence.
The disgraced former music mogul hit out after Dame Janet's report led to the sacking of veteran DJ Tony Blackburn last week.

He said: "Dame Janet obviously never read my books."

"Or examined the hundreds of BBC memos about such stars as the mighty David Bowie - a terrific talent who I knew well, who had sex with many more young people than Blackburn, Savile and the rest of the BBC DJs added together."

"Or did she decide it might be wiser not to mention such stars?"

King, 70, who served three-and-a-half years of a seven year sentence for abusing schoolboys, was released from Maidstone Prison, Kent, in 2005.
He was convicted of four indecent assaults and two serious sexual offences on boys aged 14 and 15. King was convicted of offences committed between 1983 and 1989 after an investigation by Surrey Police.

Jonathan King makes allegations against Bowie Bowie, a pop legend, died in January after a battle with cancer he chose to remain hidden from the public.

and

David Bowie had sex ‘with more young people than Jimmy Savile’, disgraced pop mogul claims:
_http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/498207/David-Bowie-sex-more-young-people-than-Jimmy-Savile-according-to-Jonathan-King