Decisiveness: a work in progress

[987baz]

Thanks Beau, I'm slowly getting used to it, feel a bit naked at the moment, but, I'm still glad I did it.

 

[Joe]

I like the shorter hair much better too! Nice!

 

[Meg]

The shorter cut looks great, Baz! It suits you.

 

[luc]

Congrats on the new haircut!

On indecisiveness (with which I struggle as well), I found it useful to train myself daily to listen to my "blink" decisions. Since I just had to go through it, I think the opposite of a "blink" insight is the process of buying a new vacuum cleaner :) You end up comparing 10 different products without any emotional investment, which can really drive you crazy. And after careful analysis over days, you still end up buying the wrong guy :) In this case however, I found myself going back to my very first hunch when starting the research, and I'm super happy! (BTW, cordless vacuum cleaners are a quantum leap in cleaning technology!)

More importantly, I try to use the "blink" thing in daily life, for example when a thought pops up like "let's do this task now, and do the other thing tomorrow", what usually happens is that my "inner lawyer" immediately starts questioning it - "but why don't you do the other task now? You can still do the thing you wanted to do now tomorrow, maybe that's even better because blablabla." I then force myself to stick to my initial thought, the "blink". It always seems to work out better that way. It requires daily training though because the inner lawyer is so powerful and convincing. It does get easier though if you do it repeatedly - "hunch about doing something? Let's do it!" FWIW

 

[Yas]

Hi 987baz, I think that there's plenty of sound advice here and it's also very good for me because I also struggle with indecisiveness.

I don't know if this relates to your particular situation, but it's just something I observed regarding agreeableness and indecisiveness, so I thought I'd share it.

A long time ago I remember reading somewhere (I don't remember exactly where but the message is what struck me at that time) that there are people who live as if they are being constantly watched by others, and as if their identity is greatly based on those, let's say, imaginary eyes watching. Extreme agreeableness seems to match perfectly with this idea to me. Too agreeable people depend a lot on what others think of them, they want to please others to an extreme and are too afraid of disappointing people. To be agreeable to some degree might be a good thing, of course, but when it's too much, it can be detrimental to one's development.

When it comes to decision making, indecision for me is sometimes (not always) related to not wanting to disappoint others, not wanting conflict and wanting any decision to be validated by others in some way in order to feel more "certain" about it. If others say it's OK, then it must be OK, so to say.

So I thought about this, and also about what we've discussed in some other threads about the exo-skeleton and the endo-skeleton... and I thought that maybe one way of looking at it was to try to "see from within", to place those "external eyes" within one self and develop that endo-skeleton. Your idea of trying to listen more to what you actually want and going according to it seems to go in that direction, I think.

I also think this is kind of nuanced because it doesn't mean that one must go to the extreme of not caring at all about what others think or on the advice of others. I think it's about balancing a tendency to depend too much on that "external eye" by growing an "internal eye" that at least knows what is it that you actually want to do. Maybe you don't end up doing what that "internal eye" sees as what it wants because you realise it isn't such a good idea, but at least you are more aware of what's in there and you "validate" its existence to some extent.

I think that asking for advice for certain things isn't something bad at all, but if we can grow that "inner eye", we know that ultimately we are the ones who make the decision always, even when we decide to not decide. And by growing it, I think we feel more and more confident about owning our decisions and taking those opportunities to learn from what we decide.

It isn't completely related to indecisiveness, but a passage from 12 Rules for Life by JBP made me think about this tendency to avoid decisions as a form of hiding too. I share it here:

[...] Someone hiding is not someone vital. Vitality requires original contribution. Hiding also does not save the conforming and conventional from disease, insanity, death and taxes. And hiding from others also means suppressing and hiding the potentialities of the unrealized self. And that’s the problem.

If you will not reveal yourself to others, you cannot reveal yourself to yourself. That does not only mean that you suppress who you are, although it also means that. It means that so much of what you could be will never be forced by necessity to come forward. This is a biological truth, as well as a conceptual truth. When you explore boldly, when you voluntarily confront the unknown, you gather information and build your renewed self out of that information. That is the conceptual element. However, researchers have recently discovered that new genes in the central nervous system turn themselves on when an organism is placed (or places itself) in a new situation. These genes code for new proteins. These proteins are the building blocks for new structures in the brain. This means that a lot of you is still nascent, in the most physical of senses, and will not be called forth by stasis. You have to say something, go somewhere and do things to get turned on. And, if not…you remain incomplete, and life is too hard for anyone incomplete.
...

Every game has rules. Some of the most important rules are implicit. You accept them merely by deciding to play the game. The first of these rules is that the game is important. If it wasn’t important, you wouldn’t be playing it. Playing a game defines it as important. The second is that moves undertaken during the game are valid if they help you win. If you make a move and it isn’t helping you win, then, by definition, it’s a bad move. You need to try something different. You remember the old joke: insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

If you’re lucky, and you fail, and you try something new, you move ahead. If that doesn’t work, you try something different again. A minor modification will suffice in fortunate circumstances. It is therefore prudent to begin with small changes, and see if they help. ...

FWIW...

 

[987baz]

I like the shorter hair much better too! Nice!

Cheers Joe, it's growing on me, haha, pun intended!

The shorter cut looks great, Baz! It suits you.

Thanks Meg, it's quite a lot more "stylized" than what I am used to, but maybe that's not such a bad thing :)

my "inner lawyer" immediately starts questioning it - "but why don't you do the other task now? You can still do the thing you wanted to do now tomorrow, maybe that's even better because blablabla." I then force myself to stick to my initial thought, the "blink". It always seems to work out better that way. It requires daily training though because the inner lawyer is so powerful and convincing. It does get easier though if you do it repeatedly - "hunch about doing something? Let's do it!" FWIW

Yes, the inner lawyer, I know him well, another very apt description. I think the blink idea, or what I think is intuition? is usually correct too, and I am learning to listen. I guess the other side of things is that, you'll never know what the other choice entails as you can't make it, so no point worrying about it. Like what has said before, make a choice and act as if the other never existed.

When it comes to decision making, indecision for me is sometimes (not always) related to not wanting to disappoint others, not wanting conflict and wanting any decision to be validated by others in some way in order to feel more "certain" about it. If others say it's OK, then it must be OK, so to say.

I do resonate with the not wanting to disappoint people, and to avoid conflict, that is a big one. I have extremely high expectations of myself, so i would also include not disappointing myself in this too, if that make sense?

So I thought about this, and also about what we've discussed in some other threads about the exo-skeleton and the endo-skeleton... and I thought that maybe one way of looking at it was to try to "see from within", to place those "external eyes" within one self and develop that endo-skeleton. Your idea of trying to listen more to what you actually want and going according to it seems to go in that direction, I think.

Yes, it seems the endo-skeleton idea is what I am working towards for sure. Like I said earlier, I think this also has to do with listening to my intuition, really listening, and really asking myself what I want. I do spend a lot of time questioning myself, which I think is healthy for the most part, just not so much when it takes up so much time and goes around in circles. So I think questioning motivations for things we do and want is good to understand, but sometimes I simply don't know why. So either it's because I have a block, or maybe I just can't admit it to myself at that moment. Still, a decision needs to made, so at the moment, the idea is to choose one and move on.

think that asking for advice for certain things isn't something bad at all, but if we can grow that "inner eye", we know that ultimately we are the ones who make the decision always, even when we decide to not decide. And by growing it, I think we feel more and more confident about owning our decisions and taking those opportunities to learn from what we decide.

Totlaly agree, and even in the small amount of time (relatively) that i have been working on this, I have noticed that I am feeling much more confident in owning my decisions. A quick example; Let's say that I want to watch a movie tonight, I know I should be reading SOTT pr the lastest book, but I really want to see (insert lame hollywood movie title here). So instead of owning that decision and just saying, well, I'm going to watch it, I used to say, ok, well, I'm playing golf today, if I hit a score under 42, as a reward I can watch the movie. Now, although playing golf and getting a good score is somewhat in my control, it's still avoiding making a decision. I have also flipped a coin or said something like, if I see 5 people wearing a red shirt at the shopping center then I get to watch the movie. I have stopped doing this, but interestingly, thinking about this behavior, I am the one who sets the goal, whether it is a good score or five red shirts, I'm the one who sets the "if/then" statement. I could have said 50 red shirts, or a perfect round of golf, which I knew were highly unlikely, instead I set goals that could go either way, and my reasoning behind it was that, "the universe will make it happen if it wants me to do it or not". Again avoiding responsibility.

Love the JBP quote, thanks for the reminder!

 

[goyacobol]

987baz,

Is is interesting that I am always searching to find the rules. Gurdjief had a similar idea I think in listing what he considered "laws". I even started a list trying to identify what all the laws were (not completed of course).

And then there are Jordan Peterson's 12 "rules". It seems we all attempt to find or create guidelines to live by perhaps to just make some decisions better or more expedient. I suppose this may be one of the "implicit" basic lessons or "simple understandings" of why we are here in 3D.

The Cs mention "general rules of 3D reality and also "karma" but that still leaves it up to us to learn what they are:

Session 30 August 2009:

Q: (Scottie) That was really bad... (Ark) Well, I'm not sure if I really understand what I want to ask. I understand that there were many factors that came together. But question is if such an end was somehow written in her karma? (Joe) Did she choose? You know, other sources always talk about people choosing to die - at some level there's a choice made. Is that the case here?

A: Too much credibility is given to the idea of "karma". Anybody can be "taken out" if their awareness is not sufficient to the situation. But as is the case, it follows the general rules of 3D reality. 4D STS can maneuver through agents mainly, environment, and that sort of thing.

I think Jordan Peterson said it well in terms we can relate to:

Every game has rules. Some of the most important rules are implicit. You accept them merely by deciding to play the game. The first of these rules is that the game is important. If it wasn’t important, you wouldn’t be playing it. Playing a game defines it as important. The second is that moves undertaken during the game are valid if they help you win. If you make a move and it isn’t helping you win, then, by definition, it’s a bad move. You need to try something different. You remember the old joke: insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

Maybe the "rules" are deliberately obscure or necessarily veiled by our 3D incarnation. If we already knew all the "rules" we probably would not be here. For myself and maybe some of you this "playing the game" hasn't been easy to accept but I am really trying to "learn" the rules so as not to be "doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results".

There is a strong tendency for me to want to control the game and be perfect in my decisions so I can "win" and I think I have gone through many of the same thought processes you have described like tossing a coin or the if/then scenarios to take some of the pressure off of my decision making. Your bringing this to our attention was a good idea I think.

There is one phrase the Cs used that I think about a whole lot ("The students are not expected to be the architects of the school.") and it is in this session:

Session August 15 1998_Archived:

Q: He says: 'I believe that if we do not send love energy to the world that the egocentric STS energy
will be dominating.

A: Why would one choose to send this? What is the motivation?

Q: To change it to your idea of what it is supposed to be. To control it to follow your judgment of how
things ought to be.

A: Exactly. The students are not expected to be the architects of the school.
Q: So, when you seek to impose or exert influence of any kind, you are, in effect, trying to play God
and taking it upon yourself to decide that there is something wrong with the universe that it is up to
you to fix, which amounts to judgment.

A: Yes, you see, one can advise, that is okay, but do not attempt to alter the lesson.

I sometimes try to "advise" myself with not such good results but I suppose I just need to keep on looking for better advice and continue the learning process even though it isn't always easy.

 

[987baz]

Maybe the "rules" are deliberately obscure or necessarily veiled by our 3D incarnation. If we already knew all the "rules" we probably would not be here. For myself and maybe some of you this "playing the game" hasn't been easy to accept but I am really trying to "learn" the rules so as not to be "doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results".

Yes, I think this is a big part of the reason I have been looking into this, wanting to learn and grow and to get away from doing the same thing over and over, by adding something new, whether it be a new perspective or insight we are changing how we interact with the world and ourselves, which in turn, IMO, brings new challenges and new catalysts for learning.

There is a strong tendency for me to want to control the game and be perfect in my decisions so I can "win" and I think I have gone through many of the same thought processes you have described like tossing a coin or the if/then scenarios to take some of the pressure off of my decision making. Your bringing this to our attention was a good idea I think.

I very much agree with the control aspect, which also feeds into the perfectionist program, something which I also suffer from. I have been dealing with the perfectionist thing for a while now and it was what prompted me to start putting out my music again. So far, it has been going well, I am feeling more creative and less pressure for the songs being perfect, they are what they are, and and the end of the day, as long as I am expressing my creativity and getting it out there, that's all that really matters :)

I sometimes try to "advise" myself with not such good results but I suppose I just need to keep on looking for better advice and continue the learning process even though it isn't always easy.

We can only advise ourselves and others with what we currently understand, so yes I would say that it is pretty much an eternal thing, until such time as we reach union with level 7. So the best we can do is to keep networking and trying to understand ourselves and the world around, every bit of information we aquire gets us one step closer up the spiral OSIT

 

[Ant22]

Hey 987baz, I'm not sure I can be of much assistance when it comes to decisiveness, my issue is the opposite and I tend to be stubborn like a mule for no reason whatsoever. This isn't much fun either so hopefully one day we will find balance that works for each of us.



I wanted to add that I agree with others: the new haircut really suits you. Shorter hair frames your face much better and gives it more of a boyish look. Long hair looked more flat around your face and the curls mainly formed in the bottom section because longer hair was heavier.

In my opinion the change is visually beneficial and I hope it's comfortable to wear it this length, although I can imagine it will take some getting used to.

 

[Chu]

I agree with others, the new hair style look nicer! I can also imagine you'd be happy with short hair, as long as it had some volume. This is totally subjective, of course, and I hope you don't take it badly, for me the old hair style said something like this:

"I'm a musician, kind of hippie, and tough. Don't approach me, I'm too cool for you/I don't like people. Isn't this an awesome hair? Who am I? That doesn't matter, check my hair out and stay away!"

While the new style doesn't evoke that at all, and is more flexible, as if you weren't so attached to your appearance and working more on what really matters to you. FWIW.

 

[987baz]

This isn't much fun either so hopefully one day we will find balance that works for each of us.

I agree Ant22, I think it's all about balance, and finding the right blend of decisiveness!

I wanted to add that I agree with others: the new haircut really suits you. Shorter hair frames your face much better and gives it more of a boyish look. Long hair looked more flat around your face and the curls mainly formed in the bottom section because longer hair was heavier.

In my opinion the change is visually beneficial and I hope it's comfortable to wear it this length, although I can imagine it will take some getting used to.

Thanks :) yeah I think it is a positive change, and yes you are right, it will take some time to get used to, it still feels very short at the moment, but that's hardly surprising considering I have had hair this length for near on 20 years. I appreciate the positive feedback!!

"I'm a musician, kind of hippie, and tough. Don't approach me, I'm too cool for you/I don't like people. Isn't this an awesome hair? Who am I? That doesn't matter, check my hair out and stay away!"

While the new style doesn't evoke that at all, and is more flexible, as if you weren't so attached to your appearance and working more on what really matters to you. FWIW.

Interesting observation Chu, the musician/hippie thing I can relate to, I guess it's part of my persona, and I can see how people who don't know me might assume those things because of my appearance. The tough comment, to be honest was a little bit of a shock, considering I am anything but, however, now that you have mentioned it, I can see how this might be something that people may have assumed as well. So thanks for pointing that out :)

Someone close to me, told me a little while ago that the first thing people notice about me is my hair, which she said was a real shame, which, is partly what got me thinking about cutting it. I also think that I have been hiding behind my hair for a while now, and having such long hair might indeed have been a defense mechanism on my part! So I think your comment about check out my hair and stay away, is quite insightful and definitely has some truth to it.

 

[luc]

Stumbled upon this on twitter which reminded me of this thread - not something that is directed specifically towards you, 987baz, but I think it's a good reminder for indecisive people like myself:

The Indecisive Man:
- Keeps waiting for Perfect Circumstances (that never come)
- Is At the Mercy of the Opinion of the Man who talked to him last
- Follows a Course only until somebody opposes it
- Forever Weighs & Balances

Success will Always Elude him. Never be this Man.

 

[seek10]

You have already been given nice advice. I too have great difficulty in making choices in some instances (If not all). Many years back,i used to fret over smallest things. One quote that helped me is from movie director when was asked why he chose specific background for his shoot. His answer is "There is nothing called right or wrong, it's a choice". But choices has consequences and as more knowledge we have of the situation, much easier to reduce unwanted consequences. In a way, it is a learning process.

In some ways, I still do it, particularly if i don't process the long list of little anxieties that accumulate in everyday decisions. These accumulated little anxieties that trigger rumination which repeat "worthless and helpless" programs. If ignored, bug me to the point, suddenly i loose perspective. I am glad you networked.

One real life example which I am dealing with at the moment, as trivial as it is, would be that I am thinking of cutting my hair. I have had long hair since I was in my late teens, so over half my life. It was recently brought to my attention that, maybe I hide behind my hair, and I mean that both physically and to an extent psychologically. So now, I am weighing up should I, shouldn't I, how short, will I look stupid and the thoughts go around and around. I even asked a few people whom I trust for their opinion, again, so if it doesn't work out (it looks bad or whatever) I can pass on some of the responsibility, OSIT. So a simple choice becomes something I enumerate on over and over, rather frustrating


I was wondering if anyone else has come up against this and has some experiences or advice on this matter?

I can relate to this, as a teenager, my mother is used to bug me to have a haircut, but I used to say "No way", but my younger brother tends to become a victim of her and follow her wish. My hair is not as long as you had. Sometimes, similar dynamics goes with my son and his mother goes out of proportion (free will vs house rules of elders). I have to talk to him about "what it means to be like living in a society and as a social being our appearance impacts our surrounding people and he needs to do what makes easy for others" etc. Now, he seems to be Ok to try different styles after initial teenage resistance. I tend to think, we have to push through initial resistance or blockage to understand what we want.

Btw. I like your new cut.

 

[987baz]

Stumbled upon this on twitter which reminded me of this thread - not something that is directed specifically towards you, 987baz, but I think it's a good reminder for indecisive people like myself:

Wow, yeah, I have to say, it's pretty accurate IMO, thanks luc, certainly a good reminder. I may even print that out as a reminder!

"There is nothing called right or wrong, it's a choice". But choices has consequences and as more knowledge we have of the situation, much easier to reduce unwanted consequences. In a way, it is a learning process.

And as has mentioned before on this thread, only by making a choice and taking responsibility for that choice do you have the opportunity to learn.

In some ways, I still do it, particularly if i don't process the long list of little anxieties that accumulate in everyday decisions. These accumulated little anxieties that trigger rumination which repeat "worthless and helpless" programs. If ignored, bug me to the point, suddenly i loose perspective. I am glad you networked.

I have to say, that I am very glad that I networked this as well, it has become apparent to me that this indecisiveness had/has a much stronger grip on me than I previously thought. Digging into it deeper has certainly allowed me to see how much it effected me, and thanks to the network and the advice and support provided I feel I have made definite positive steps forward, especially in understanding where i am at and what needs to be done to overcome it.

I have to talk to him about "what it means to be like living in a society and as a social being our appearance impacts our surrounding people and he needs to do what makes easy for others"

Is this a form of external considering? I'd never thought of it like that before.

I tend to think, we have to push through initial resistance or blockage to understand what we want.

Indeed, this has become much more apparent to me of late, and I think questioning the blockage is a very powerful thing as long as we are not ruminating on it over and over. For me, this is the battle, to not over think and become paralyzed, and this do nothing, but to sincerely question and make a decision and learn from it! Finding that balance, thanks seek10, some more valuable feedback.

 

[seek10]

Is this a form of external considering? I'd never thought of it like that before.

I think there are different considerations in different contexts. If the people in your space is fine with your hair style, I don't see a issue with it. btw., I didn't thought any thing odd when I see you in the chat.

I am sorry, if i wrote some thing inappropriate.

I wrote it because you mentioned about your partner about the food choices. I tend to think whenever 2 people are involved, external consideration needed as long it doesn't drain the person with "Reflective of other needs" and both gets what they want from each other.

Again in the Western cultures, individuality is highly praised, given and the advantage of being able to focus on the field of endeavor without the distractions of family and relatives is well documented. In the eastern world, it is the opposite and comes with its own baggage.

In the case of my son, it's a different context and different mixture. Now a days, with internet, the young generation has every thing they dream of at fingertip and dynamic of social interaction is gone. Suddenly they think leave me alone in my room, give me wi-fi, I can do whatever I want , I don't care what you think, I will eat whatever I want whenever I want etc. So, there is conflict of expectations between him and mother. Mother wants the kid to do hair cut else no food, he threaten to not to eat food , she goes crazy with him not eating saying he cheats of random food and out of control etc. To avoid the reactions and counter reactions, I have to tell him the basics of life to convey the message. It's all issue of the communication between them. In his case, it is my way of setting the expectation to him. You can call it external consideration. It depends on who is on the other side and what are they expecting from the interaction.