Disturbing News

As someone with 5 posts on this forum, and who has thus never networked here, it might be wise to consider the idea that you don't know anything - objectively - about this network.

My statement is not an assumption, it is the truth as evidenced over many years and thousands of instances of networking in action.

In short, don't knock it until you've tried it and don't assume to know something you don't know.

Now, I suppose my question is, what is really bugging you about this, since you are obviously reacting rather emotionally to this thread. My other question would be whether you are at all familiar with the work of G.I. Gurdjieff? This forum is based, in part, on that work, so being familiar with that might help you make sense of what it is we do here.
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That's true, he or she does not know the work we collectedly do here, we are trying to wake up, at least me. One thing I have learned here is, don't make assumptions, never, It will lead you to wrongness.

EDU
 
Hi unk,

I was wondering whether you've had the opportunity to read through the links posted to you in your intro thread? They may help you to understand what this forum is about. :)
 
anart said:
the reason most people post on the forum is for personal feedback, because, as human beings, we do not know what is best; we cannot see ourselves - thus getting more objective input from the network is vital for the work on the self. Saying, 'only you know' is missing the point, because one cannot See themselves, which is why EGVG posted about it here. :)
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unk said:
I disagree with your assumption that the input of the network is objective.
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As you can see by comparing the two quotes above, unk, that was not anart's assumption, it was your distortion. Until you can recognize that, you might continue to misunderstand the need for "getting more objective input", thus the questions that ask if you have read the links posted to your introductory thread. Have you? :)

unk said:
I believe human beings do know what is best for themselves individually.
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That would be true only when a person has done the necessary work to truly know themselves, and 'perfected their objective reason', according to Gurdjieff, OSIT. Welcome to the learning place! :)
 
unk said:
I disagree with your assumption that the input of the network is objective. It appears to be judgmental/subjective. I believe human beings do know what is best for themselves individually. It seems more relevant feedback here would be from the people involved in the situation, not from people who have no idea what went down but nevertheless seem to think they know the answers.
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Actually, that is objectively not the case most of the time though it CAN be under unusual and rather rare situations. Here's why:

Quote from: Barbara Oakley in "Evil Genes"

A recent imaging study by psychologist Drew Westen and his colleagues at Emory University provides firm support for the existence of emotional reasoning. Just prior to the 2004 Bush-Kerry presidential elections, two groups of subjects were recruited - fifteen ardent Democrats and fifteen ardent Republicans. Each was presented with conflicting and seemingly damaging statements about their candidate, as well as about more neutral targets such as actor Tom Hanks (who, it appears, is a likable guy for people of all political persuasions). Unsurprisingly, when the participants were asked to draw a logical conclusion about a candidate from the other - "wrong" - political party, the participants found a way to arrive at a conclusion that made the candidate look bad, even though logic should have mitigated the particular circumstances and allowed them to reach a different conclusion. Here's where it gets interesting.

When this "emote control" began to occur, parts of the brain normally involved in reasoning were not activated. Instead, a constellation of activations occurred in the same areas of the brain where punishment, pain, and negative emotions are experienced (that is, in the left insula, lateral frontal cortex, and ventromedial prefrontal cortex). Once a way was found to ignore information that could not be rationally discounted, the neural punishment areas turned off, and the participant received a blast of activation in the circuits involving rewards - akin to the high an addict receives when getting his fix.

In essence, the participants were not about to let facts get in the way of their hot-button decision making and quick buzz of reward. "None of the circuits involved in conscious reasoning were particularly engaged," says Westen. "Essentially, it appears as if partisans twirl the cognitive kaleidoscope until they get the conclusions they want, and then they get massively reinforced for it, with the elimination of negative emotional states and activation of positive ones." {...}

Ultimately, Westen and his colleagues believe that "emotionally biased reasoning leads to the 'stamping in' or reinforcement of a defensive belief, associationg the participant's 'revisionist' account of the data with positive emotion or relief and elimination of distress. 'The result is that partisan beliefs are calcified, and the person can learn very little from new data,'" Westen says. Westen's remarkable study showed that neural information processing related to what he terms "motivated reasoning" ... appears to be qualitatively different from reasoning when a person has no strong emotional stake in the conclusions to be reached.

The study is thus the first to describe the neural processes that underlie political judgment and decision making, as well as to describe processes involving emote control, psychological defense, confirmatory bias, and some forms of cognitive dissonance. The significance of these findings ranges beyond the study of politics: "Everyone from executives and judges to scientists and politicians may reason to emotionally biased judgments when they have a vested interest in how to interpret 'the facts,'" according to Westen. 
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Added: You may get something of value regarding your views from this thread:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=19418.0
 
Well oddly enough something similar happened in my film a few weeks ago. It's a similar situation, but not identical. Here's a post I recently threw up on facebook which explains most of it.

Defriend and Blocked: C.C.

Almost two weeks ago, before my trip to France, a 'friend' of mine had implied he had a desire to take his own life. Being who I am, I was totally freaked. I also happened to be stuck finished up work and having class that night, so I couldn't run off to be with this person to figure out what the deal was. Thankfully, my friend A was around, also friends with this person, and so he went on 'suicide watch' for the both of us.

What he found however, was someone who was totally nonchalant, not depressed, manic or otherwise upset. He seemed to enjoy the attention he was getting, and had absolutely no thought for what he was putting me and A through. I called two of my psychologist friends and tried to get some feedback, I called this individual when I got out of class that night, and he still claimed out of touch, unaware of what was happening, or how to deal with his predicament.

He claimed he was out of rent funds, and needed 50$ or so to cover it until next week. Naturally I offered him the money, is killing oneself really worth 50$? Of course not! He was to come by the next day, early in the morning, to meet and pick up the funds, since I was due at work by 8am. Lo and behold, he was not there, and did not answer my attempts to phone him. When I got to work, I checked facebook: He was gone.

I was shocked, nervous, but resigned that I had tried my best, and his choices and the consequences of such are not my problem. Later that morning, A saw him on another social website and obviously he had survived, and not only that, but he had internet access.

After 'investing' 100$ in his startup company and lending him another 20$ so he could go out one night and have a drink, after being emotional manipulated into offering him another 50$ for 'rent' - I'm done. Both A and I have done nothing but support this individual, emotionally and financially, and never once asked for anything in return.

I don't take well to being lied to, to being emotionally manipulated, nor to having same done to my friends. I'm not publishing this to be mean or vindictive, but to have a record of the events, in writing, so that if this individual decides to attempt to insert himself into my life again or the lives of my friends and loved ones, I have it down here as a record of the events from my perspective. I would also hope this serves as a warning, preventing anyone else from 'investing' venture companies or financially/emotionally supporting vampiric archetypes and behavior, even if it's manifesting in someone you think of as your friend. When all someone cares about is themselves, and are incapable of considering others, in reality, they can have no true friends.
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I could give more background, but needless to say this person's severely melodramatic, and has a history of shacking up with the guys he's dating, living off them for a few weeks, and then repeating the pattern again and again. Feedback/questions welcome.
 
Puck said:
I could give more background, but needless to say this person's severely melodramatic, and has a history of shacking up with the guys he's dating, living off them for a few weeks, and then repeating the pattern again and again. Feedback/questions welcome.
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I guess the first thing that I think of, without additional input to go on, is that it seems strange of you to broadcast this person's personal business on FB to all your friends. What was the circumstances behind that? It seems rather melodramatic of you to write such a missive, ironically.
 
Mostly it was for my own protection and to let my friends know that this person isn't to be trusted. I thought it was silly, admittedly, but then I thought what if later I regretted not doing it. In the end the potential damage of not-sharing it seemed greater then that from sharing it. Given this individuals deceptive and manipulative nature, I expected him to spread some lies about me or A, and wanted to head that right off.

Are you asking why I decided to type it up and share it today? I was talking to A, my best friend, last night and we thought about making the knowledge of what had transpired public, simply because we didn't want this same drama to happen to anyone else. We didn't come to any conclusion then, but after sleeping on it I was pretty certain that it was the right thing to do in this situation.
 
Puck said:
Well oddly enough something similar happened in my film a few weeks ago. It's a similar situation, but not identical. Here's a post I recently threw up on facebook which explains most of it.

{snipped some stuff}

Feedback/questions welcome.
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The C's are on record with a comment about how life is a reflection of our interaction with all of Creation; Krishnamurti speaks of Truth as pathless land - Truth about oneself can be found through the mirror of relationship (The images that dominate our thinking are the causes of our problems for they divide man from man); and starting on page 183 of "Life is real then, only when I am", Gurdjieff speaks of "affinity" between people in terms of the 'radiations' of a person as combination of vibrations of the thought, feeling and instinctive centers (among other things).

In addition, my experience of life seems to confirm a hypothesis that when a person has 'done you wrong' in some way or other and then avoids you afterward, it's generally due to a mistaken belief that they can avoid telling the truth about the matter and/or feeling their guilt from what they've done - especially if they don't trust your reactions.

You can test this for yourself, starting with a thought experiment: What do you think would happen if you got in touch with this person (not try - do it) and expressed a sincere and genuine interest in how he's doing without mentioning anything he owes you or what he 'put you through'?

Could you do that without him being suspicious of your motives? If not, why not?

I'm just wondering, really, because I don't know if he is really a friend, acquaintance, or what. :)
 
So - this thread is the reason I logged back into the forum after years of fence sitting. EGVG's original post set off a swirl of emotion I felt compelled to address. Puck's input adds fuel. My question is this:
How do you know when you should step in and when you should step back?

Seemingly, Puck's friend uses the "I'll hurt myself" manipulation for beer and rent money - and whatever else. Is this not female vampirism (Unholy Hungers, Barbara E. Holt)? And was not EGVG's friends behavior the same thing, though more dramatic?

I have an adult child who does this type of thing all the time. As a result, his father, brother's and I all allow him to tyrannize the entire family for fear he will "do himself an injury", or just disappear.

I honestly don't know if he wants help, needs help, or if he is just feeding off of the family because we are an easy meal.

If I turn my back and something bad happens, is it my fault? If I keep helping, am I not enabling - interfering with his lessons - or simply allowing myself to be used?

I suspect EGVG and Puck have both been subjected to emotional blackmail by their friends for some time, which lead to both of their decisions to walk away this last time. How do you know when it's time to walk away and let the chips fall?
 
Hi dormouse. I don't know that there is an absolute answer to this type of question. Seemingly it would be connected to many other factors which include the amount of knowledge held and lessons learned.

Both Puck and EGVG likely have different levels of knowledge and experience of the Work and would probably not ordinarily be expected to handle an issue like this identically, OSIT, but I'm not an expert by any means.

dormouse said:
I have an adult child who does this type of thing all the time.
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Can you share some more about this child? When did this behavior start, what is his/her childhood experience, etc.?
 
Hey Bud.

Bud said:
dormouse said:
I have an adult child who does this type of thing all the time.
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Can you share some more about this child? When did this behavior start, what is his/her childhood experience, etc.?
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Wow - I don't know if I can. Seems I opened a can of corn here that I'm not sure I want to eat.

And there are privacy issues I perhaps should not have trod upon.

J was an active member of - I don't' even know what to call it - the inner circle here.

OK - I'm here to learn and grow. Moderators please - if I cross a line here delete my post.

J has always had a sense that the world owed him something. He didn't ask to be born; I imposed on him this life that he does not want. He is above average intelligence, but thumbed his nose at education because he generally feels he knows more than the teachers - they have nothing to teach him.

In his late teens, J began drinking. Over the years he has evolved into quite the alcoholic and is a mean drunk.

In his early 20's (I think) he discovered this group and became very involved. During the years he was involved he seemed to really grow emotionally. We had great conversations about "The Work" and "Ponerology". About 2 years ago (3?) he had a falling out with the group. I do not know what happened. Only that - it appears to me - this falling out shattered him.
Since that time he has been angry, drunk, and vindictive. He now works at a low-wage, dead-end job, wallows in self-pity, and blames the world for his woes.

I'm leaving a lot of blanks here. This is really hard.

OK I understand the bad economy - no good jobs available. His younger brother has 2 jobs, pays his bills, and does not torture the people he lives with.

I think I'm just making noise now and have co-opted EGVG's thread. (but it was this thread that brought this to the surface.)

So - we went through a year or so of drunken phone calls in the middle of the night, threats of suicide, disappearing. Adding insult to injury, this is the exact path my brother took. His path ended with a very ugly death. J knows this. He is currently living with his father treating his housemates and dog like dirt, and everyone around him is afraid to say anything.

So the question becomes: when does one back away? Or look outside the box for help?

Going for broke ... click "post".
 
dormouse said:
Hey Bud.

Bud said:
dormouse said:
I have an adult child who does this type of thing all the time.
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Can you share some more about this child? When did this behavior start, what is his/her childhood experience, etc.?
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Wow - I don't know if I can. Seems I opened a can of corn here that I'm not sure I want to eat.

And there are privacy issues I perhaps should not have trod upon.

J was an active member of - I don't' even know what to call it - the inner circle here.
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I think in the circumstances surrounding this situation it may be better to contact either Laura or one of the admins/mods for a better use of the network due to privacy issues and the fact that this is the public part of the forum.

There is a less public part called the Swamp but you need 50 posts to be able to post in it, so perhaps a PM is better at this moment?

Just a suggestion, fwiw.
 
dormouse, it is possible I owe you an apology. This was obviously uncomfortable for you, but if the thread starts to vector away from EGVG, Mod/Admin can split it off or you could start a separate thread, or contact a Mod/Admin person as Deedlet suggested.

I feel like I opened a can too, because since there is history here between J and the forum, the Mods and senior members who have the records and more knowledge of this would probably have the most useful input.

My own experience with this type of behavior is limited but the line of distinction I made first is whether or not the person seems to really enjoy tormenting others. In the case where this person did seem to enjoy it, the split was total, complete, non-negotiable and enforced by law through a restraining order and telephone tap for documentation purposes.

My soul-searching efforts led me to believe that in any other case, the person would have been simply acting the victim of their own programming and needed help to overcome it, so I would have taken a different route. Since it never came to that, I never really decided exactly what I would have done to try and help this person.

Maybe others will have more useful input for you (like Deedlet just did :)).
 
Bud: I think you meant no harm. This is uncomfortable for me. And I hope I have not misstepped. I did not think I was coming to open the J issue with the moderator's, but clearly it's more on my mind than I realized. I'm kind of hoping they will delete that post but, having lurked as long as I have, I trust they will do what is best.

Anyway, EGVG said:
EGVG said:
I thought that he was dead for some 20 seconds, I was praying I had this immense feeling of overwhelming emotions. Memories, and I felt that this was a sing that I could not be wondering and getting free stuff anymore, I needed to grow up. Suddenly he again connected and told me that his bedroom floor was turning red, I told him "you're scaring me" "goodbye" and I disconnected.
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The point I was after was: I think EGVG was in real fear at this point and didn't know what to do but disconnect. And hope for the best? I think Puck experienced the same fear and sense of helplessness.

And I can completely relate to what they must have been feeling at that point. (or I'm over-identifying). It's terrifying to believe someone you are connected to is in imminent danger and there is nothing you can do. That poses the question: how do we know when to act and when to walk away?

Every situation is different and we can only go by our experiences with the person in danger and hope to make the right choice. Even if the other person isn't deliberately tormenting you, sometimes there is nothing you can do.
I think that EVGV and Puck did the best they could be expected to do at the time (based on the information we have).

And I think that's one of the hardest things to learn in this life is when to step in and when to step back.

Thank you to EGVG and Puck both for sharing your experience.
 
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