Disturbing News

[Laura]

J was an active member of - I don't' even know what to call it - the inner circle here.

He was a member of QFS.

J has always had a sense that the world owed him something. He didn't ask to be born; I imposed on him this life that he does not want. He is above average intelligence, but thumbed his nose at education because he generally feels he knows more than the teachers - they have nothing to teach him.

In his late teens, J began drinking. Over the years he has evolved into quite the alcoholic and is a mean drunk.

In his early 20's (I think) he discovered this group and became very involved. During the years he was involved he seemed to really grow emotionally. We had great conversations about "The Work" and "Ponerology". About 2 years ago (3?) he had a falling out with the group. I do not know what happened. Only that - it appears to me - this falling out shattered him.

Actually, none of us knew what had happened at all. He just dropped out. I think it was because we responded to his desire to be "saved" by us and to "move in" with us with the suggestion that he needed to work on himself in the environment in which he lived. He was told "You can't run away, you have to deal with stuff". He had what appeared to be a fervent, emotional desire for someone to do everything for him. He went to spend some time with the Canadian crew and rapidly discovered that he was actually expected to do things himself. So, I guess that was too much for him and he just dropped out. No drama, nothing like that. (But we did learn that he was a mean drunk and that was interesting.)

Since that time he has been angry, drunk, and vindictive. He now works at a low-wage, dead-end job, wallows in self-pity, and blames the world for his woes.

Not a surprise. People who want others to save them, who feel that the world owes them something, generally do get angry when they discover that they have to do the work themselves. It's not a cult and I guess that's what he wanted it to be: promises of salvation and magical methods to get it. Sorry, that's not who we are or what we do.

I'm leaving a lot of blanks here. This is really hard.

OK I understand the bad economy - no good jobs available. His younger brother has 2 jobs, pays his bills, and does not torture the people he lives with.

I think I'm just making noise now and have co-opted EGVG's thread. (but it was this thread that brought this to the surface.)

So - we went through a year or so of drunken phone calls in the middle of the night, threats of suicide, disappearing. Adding insult to injury, this is the exact path my brother took. His path ended with a very ugly death. J knows this. He is currently living with his father treating his housemates and dog like dirt, and everyone around him is afraid to say anything.

So the question becomes: when does one back away? Or look outside the box for help?

Going for broke ... click "post".

It's hard because it is your child. Probably the most difficult situation in the world. I expect that you feel guilty for him being the way he is, like "what did I do to contribute to this?" sort of thing.

I think you need to realize that it isn't your fault: people are what they are intrinsically. Everyone has difficult situations, suffers, etc, it's what you do with it that shows who and what you are inside. Maybe you weren't the perfect mother, doing everything right at every moment. Well, guess what? Neither was I. But kids show who and what they are by being able to accommodate those things and turn out okay anyway.

I guess you just have to accept that the child is a sovereign being with soul choices of their own and let go for your own sanity. If you have done everything reasonable, and they still decide to spiral into self-destruction, that's their choice. It's hard, like I said, and maybe it is easier on you if you just begin facing reality little by little and acknowledge that the end result may be their death, but if you don't feed the beast, at least you will have stood up for their soul. Do what is RIGHT in each moment, and that means not giving in to STS manipulation, even if it is your child, and even if it tears you up inside to say "no."

 

[Gimpy]

I have an adult child who does this type of thing all the time. As a result, his father, brother's and I all allow him to tyrannize the entire family for fear he will "do himself an injury", or just disappear.

I honestly don't know if he wants help, needs help, or if he is just feeding off of the family because we are an easy meal.

If I turn my back and something bad happens, is it my fault? If I keep helping, am I not enabling - interfering with his lessons - or simply allowing myself to be used?

I suspect EGVG and Puck have both been subjected to emotional blackmail by their friends for some time, which lead to both of their decisions to walk away this last time. How do you know when it's time to walk away and let the chips fall?

If something bad happens, no, it isn't your fault. When that is implied, its blatant manipulation.

You know its time to walk away when the 'song remains the same': the basic behavior never changes over time. It may vary as far as the scenario, but never in the end result, which is enmeshing you.

If you've done all you can do, and the person in question never changes or gets better, or worse, demands you take care of him/her and threatens self harm if you don't...this is pathological behavior, and a clear warning to stop involvement for your own soul's health.

Fwiw, this is a situation I wrestle with all the time. While it is hard, it isn't impossible to stop being trapped by it.

 

[dormouse]

Laura:

Thank you. I needed to hear that. And I know that you are right.

And I'm not here for this. I'm here in the hope that I can learn more by participating than by fence watching. But part of my fear in coming was that I wasn't going to get very far without getting into this issue. Honestly, it was clearly high in my heart since these posts about not being able to save friends got me to log in.

So there it is, and here I am.
(self-editting here - maybe this is exactly why I'm here. You are not allowed to take any baggage on the life boat and if you won't let go of your baggage, you are choosing to go down with the ship.)


Gimpy: Thank you also.

If something bad happens, no, it isn't your fault. When that is implied, its blatant manipulation.

You know its time to walk away when the 'song remains the same': the basic behavior never changes over time. It may vary as far as the scenario, but never in the end result, which is enmeshing you.

If you've done all you can do, and the person in question never changes or gets better, or worse, demands you take care of him/her and threatens self harm if you don't...this is pathological behavior, and a clear warning to stop involvement for your own soul's health.

Fwiw, this is a situation I wrestle with all the time. While it is hard, it isn't impossible to stop being trapped by it.

I think we all hit points in our life where, if we are going to move forward, we have to leave someone behind. If it were easy, everyone would do it. The sad part is: he is the one who conviced me the ship is sinking. I don't always love irony.

 

[Cyre2067]

In addition, my experience of life seems to confirm a hypothesis that when a person has 'done you wrong' in some way or other and then avoids you afterward, it's generally due to a mistaken belief that they can avoid telling the truth about the matter and/or feeling their guilt from what they've done - especially if they don't trust your reactions.

Hi Bud, I think this is true with normal individuals, but I've been avoiding the realization that this one is pathological for months now, and this latest event kinda clicked everything in place. I tend to have a bit of a hero program, and again, this was something I wasn't really seeing until this kid kept coming and asking for money for this that and the other, or feigning an inability to buy food to get me or my friend to buy him a meal, when later we find out he took a guy out to dinner @ the plaza.

You can test this for yourself, starting with a thought experiment: What do you think would happen if you got in touch with this person (not try - do it) and expressed a sincere and genuine interest in how he's doing without mentioning anything he owes you or what he 'put you through'?

Could you do that without him being suspicious of your motives? If not, why not?

I'm just wondering, really, because I don't know if he is really a friend, acquaintance, or what. :)

I would assume he would start up again with pity pleas. Maybe I should emphasize that he's the one that cut off communication with me, I also neglected to mention that he did show up @ my house that morning, only well after I had left. One of my roommates must have buzzed him up, and he left me a nasty note on my dresser which read, "Puck, I just walked 86 blocks, its 710am, where are you!? I hate you, C."

Granted I had called his phone 5x that morning before leaving, waited till 715 before leaving, received no answer nor saw him anywhere near my house. So I have no idea what kind of game he was playing.

I perhaps now he would be suspicious of my motives, since I have clearly demonstrated a desire to have nothing to do with this individual. I had known this person for about 5 years, and we were friends during that time, however it was only recently that I saw his parasitic lifestyle, as for the last three or so we've been living in different cities and saw each other infrequently.

@dormouse - Wow, I truly feel for you. I have nothing to add to what others have already said, except to wish you strength and discernment.

 

[go2]

I have an adult child who does this type of thing all the time. As a result, his father, brother's and I all allow him to tyrannize the entire family for fear he will "do himself an injury", or just disappear.

Very good thread....I have a daughter who was arrested 6 times for alcohol related incidents during her high
school years. I relate to the fear and guilt expressed when one we love becomes a pathologically self-centered. Four years ago I was emotionally-thinking about her latest episode with the law while I was up a ladder pruning a tree. I fell off the ladder and tore the anterior cruciate ligament in the left knee. As I lay on my back, in excurciating pain, I had the sudden realization that her life was her own and I cut off the money for treatment, lawyers, and her lifestyle. She went to jail for ten days and had to get a job to pay her fines. Now, four years later she has become a responsible young women who works full time and takes college classes. So, some people do become responsible when we "kick them out of the nest". It is a chance we must take, when the easy options are gone. Good luck with your son, dormouse.

 

[EGVG]

I have an adult child who does this type of thing all the time. As a result, his father, brother's and I all allow him to tyrannize the entire family for fear he will "do himself an injury", or just disappear.

Very good thread....I have a daughter who was arrested 6 times for alcohol related incidents during her high
school years. I relate to the fear and guilt expressed when one we love becomes a pathologically self-centered. Four years ago I was emotionally-thinking about her latest episode with the law while I was up a ladder pruning a tree. I fell off the ladder and tore the anterior cruciate ligament in the left knee. As I lay on my back, in excurciating pain, I had the sudden realization that her life was her own and I cut off the money for treatment, lawyers, and her lifestyle. She went to jail for ten days and had to get a job to pay her fines. Now, four years later she has become a responsible young women who works full time and takes college classes. So, some people do become responsible when we "kick them out of the nest". It is a chance we must take, when the easy options are gone. Good luck with your son, dormouse.

I'm glad to see this thread has evolve into something more! This is exactly why I like the forum so much, people get help, and reality checks! :D

EDU

 

[dormouse]

go2:

I have an adult child who does this type of thing all the time. As a result, his father, brother's and I all allow him to tyrannize the entire family for fear he will "do himself an injury", or just disappear.

Very good thread....I have a daughter who was arrested 6 times for alcohol related incidents during her high
school years. I relate to the fear and guilt expressed when one we love becomes a pathologically self-centered. Four years ago I was emotionally-thinking about her latest episode with the law while I was up a ladder pruning a tree. I fell off the ladder and tore the anterior cruciate ligament in the left knee. As I lay on my back, in excurciating pain, I had the sudden realization that her life was her own and I cut off the money for treatment, lawyers, and her lifestyle. She went to jail for ten days and had to get a job to pay her fines. Now, four years later she has become a responsible young women who works full time and takes college classes. So, some people do become responsible when we "kick them out of the nest". It is a chance we must take, when the easy options are gone. Good luck with your son, dormouse.

OH MY! I hope your knee has healed. That is a painful injury.

I do things like that. I'll be involved in physical labor while deeply engaged in emotional thinking. I 'think' I'm working things out. And boom; I hurt myself or break something. I generally see the connection after the fact. But going to the next step of recognizing it's time for me to change something I am doing - I tend to skip that step.

I have only recently been starting to realize that I cling desperately to all of my children because "they need me". (Yes you may all snicker now.) How - or for that matter why - will they ever take responsibility for their own lives if they don't have to?

Thank you.

And thank you EGVG for starting the thread.

 

[herondancer]

OH MY! I hope your knee has healed. That is a painful injury.

I do things like that. I'll be involved in physical labor while deeply engaged in emotional thinking. I 'think' I'm working things out. And boom; I hurt myself or break something. I generally see the connection after the fact. But going to the next step of recognizing it's time for me to change something I am doing - I tend to skip that step.

I have only recently been starting to realize that I cling desperately to all of my children because "they need me". (Yes you may all snicker now.) How - or for that matter why - will they ever take responsibility for their own lives if they don't have to?

Thank you.

And thank you EGVG for starting the thread.

Oh dear, go2. That's a tough injury. Is it fully healed? DMSO and magnesium oil are good liniments if it is still giving you trouble.

dormouse, no one here would ever snicker at you for caring about your children, even if the form it has taken hitherto was less than healthy. You've woken up to the fact of it, and that's more than most ever accomplish. You've shown courage and strength in bringing this painful situation up. I hope it's given you some relief. I've met your son several times. It's saddening to know that so much talent and potential is being wasted. But you have to look after your own soul first and foremost. Who knows? Maybe by you standing up for your own development will give him the example he needs. It might not happen right away, or even ever, but no gesture to the Universe is ever lost.

{{Hugs}}

Herondancer

 

[dormouse]

Herondancer:

Thank you for your kind words, and I apologize for taking so long to reply. This particular issue is a major trigger for me. A dangerous trigger. When I am in the throes of "J is not OK", I get kind of crazy. I bounce between barely contained hysteria and complete disassociation; I can't do my job, and I can't respond to my 13 year old daughter's needs. When I am in that mode, the only thing that matters to me is rescuing J. So for me, the problem is not what J is doing with his life, but how I allow my perceptions of what he is doing to affect my life.

EGVG's original post triggered my "J's going to die a bloody, ugly death just like my brother and father" program. This is a very dangerous place for me. The good news is: I recognized it. I addressed it and I'm working it. It has been almost 3 weeks since your post and I am only just to where I can come back to the conversation. (and not doing a great job of it - this is the first time I've ever tried to articulate any of this ... please bear with me).

I know you cannot work anyone else's program. I also know I am in no position to judge someone else's work. J is "working". He is working (I think) very hard. He is not producing outward results that my mommy program can point to and say "ooh look what a good thing he did". That is my problem, not his. He does not seem to be overcoming our familial self-destructive tendencies to my satisfaction. My problem, not his.

OK - now it sounds like I'm defending him, which is not my intent.

I can't do his work. I can only do mine. This thread revealed to me a very dangerous program I have running. So - I got on board, ripped the wound open and have been letting it drain. I have started the EE breathing (which he's been trying to get me to do for over a year), and I'm going back to the core psychology reading as it appears I'm ready to address issues I've been hiding from.

I think I'll mostly be hanging out in "The Work" section. I just wanted to pop back to this thread to tell you all "Thank you". This thread was really critical to me.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

Hi Dormouse, this is definitely a tough situation, there is no easy way about it. Just remember to do EE and eat a healthy diet to help you keep a clear head and get a handle on your emotions about this, which are perfectly understandable. Just remember that we're each responsible for our own lives and our own destiny, and we each have our own lessons and thus path in life, and no one else can learn those lessons for us, nor take responsibility for our life. Hang in there, keep breathing, and remember we're here for you if you would like to talk :)

 

[Buddy]

I know you cannot work anyone else's program. I also know I am in no position to judge someone else's work. J is "working". He is working (I think) very hard. He is not producing outward results that my mommy program can point to and say "ooh look what a good thing he did". That is my problem, not his. He does not seem to be overcoming our familial self-destructive tendencies to my satisfaction. My problem, not his.

OK - now it sounds like I'm defending him, which is not my intent.

I can't do his work. I can only do mine. This thread revealed to me a very dangerous program I have running. So - I got on board, ripped the wound open and have been letting it drain. I have started the EE breathing (which he's been trying to get me to do for over a year), and I'm going back to the core psychology reading as it appears I'm ready to address issues I've been hiding from.

This is very wonderful news, dormouse. Proof enough that the Work actually works for those who are sincere, as you obviously are. Best to you in your efforts.

 

[herondancer]

Herondancer:

Thank you for your kind words, and I apologize for taking so long to reply. This particular issue is a major trigger for me. A dangerous trigger. When I am in the throes of "J is not OK", I get kind of crazy. I bounce between barely contained hysteria and complete disassociation; I can't do my job, and I can't respond to my 13 year old daughter's needs. When I am in that mode, the only thing that matters to me is rescuing J. So for me, the problem is not what J is doing with his life, but how I allow my perceptions of what he is doing to affect my life.

EGVG's original post triggered my "J's going to die a bloody, ugly death just like my brother and father" program. This is a very dangerous place for me. The good news is: I recognized it. I addressed it and I'm working it. It has been almost 3 weeks since your post and I am only just to where I can come back to the conversation. (and not doing a great job of it - this is the first time I've ever tried to articulate any of this ... please bear with me).

I know you cannot work anyone else's program. I also know I am in no position to judge someone else's work. J is "working". He is working (I think) very hard. He is not producing outward results that my mommy program can point to and say "ooh look what a good thing he did". That is my problem, not his. He does not seem to be overcoming our familial self-destructive tendencies to my satisfaction. My problem, not his.

OK - now it sounds like I'm defending him, which is not my intent.

I can't do his work. I can only do mine. This thread revealed to me a very dangerous program I have running. So - I got on board, ripped the wound open and have been letting it drain. I have started the EE breathing (which he's been trying to get me to do for over a year), and I'm going back to the core psychology reading as it appears I'm ready to address issues I've been hiding from.

I think I'll mostly be hanging out in "The Work" section. I just wanted to pop back to this thread to tell you all "Thank you". This thread was really critical to me.

I know you cannot work anyone else's program. I also know I am in no position to judge someone else's work. J is "working". He is working (I think) very hard. He is not producing outward results that my mommy program can point to and say "ooh look what a good thing he did". That is my problem, not his. He does not seem to be overcoming our familial self-destructive tendencies to my satisfaction. My problem, not his.

OK - now it sounds like I'm defending him, which is not my intent.

I can't do his work. I can only do mine. This thread revealed to me a very dangerous program I have running. So - I got on board, ripped the wound open and have been letting it drain. I have started the EE breathing (which he's been trying to get me to do for over a year), and I'm going back to the core psychology reading as it appears I'm ready to address issues I've been hiding from.

This is very wonderful news, dormouse. Proof enough that the Work actually works for those who are sincere, as you obviously are. Best to you in your efforts.

Yes, dormouse, wonderful news. The EE work will help you stabilize your emotions, and the diet will help get your brain clear for assimilating the information in your reading. You seem to be a doer, and these are exactly the things you need to do. Is J also doing the EE program? It has a way of working under the surface. You may not see anything you " 'can point to and say "ooh look what a good thing he did' ", but that could change in the future. It's open after all. ;)

Just keep looking after yourself, and the Universe will look after both of you.

 

[EGVG]

Great news to hear!!
Well I just wanted to share that like one week or a little lees ago I saw my friend displayed on the original post. I was on a friends house, we where just hanging out after going to the cinema, and suddenly someone ringed the door bell. It was him, he looked a little more healthy and with more substance in his body, his hair looked healtier too. He was always ultra skinny.
OK, well the point is that he came in, we spoke like nothing ever happend, and he started to tell us, that he was going to go to Argentina to convert to Muslim, he even was carring a book, in English, about Muslim teachings. I didn't knew he understood English... He was trembling for moments, I thought It was his medication, and also the abstinence of drugs. I couldn't look at his face, so after 5 minutes of talking I just turned and started to see the news on the internet. Honestly meeting him and seeing him so confused and strange (he was acting like a scared animal) was more disturbing that the on line experience. All I can now do is to move on and wish him luck.

EDU

 

[EGVG]

I've been doing that all my life. Not with everyone or not in every occasion, but yes I do have an emotional shield, some of my acquaintances may think I'm shallow and cold, but I'm not, I'm really not, I'm just cautious when hanging with wrong crowds and when revealing my feeling. For example I fear commitment, I fear getting to close to some people and I fear taking the first step, not always, but it has been a costant on my life. I'm working on it.

EGVG, have you read The Narcissistic Family? If not, I'd move it to the top of the pile. I think you'll find a lot in there that can put your fears and narcissistic tendencies in perspective.

Thank you so much for pointing me to The Narcissistic Family, it was full with amazing information that helped me understand better myself, my family and friends, thank you so much Approaching Infinity. :)

 

[EGVG]

Out of pure coincidence just reread this thread, I have to say I sense a lot of hate from my part thowards this man. It makes me feel good to see that now I understand the situation a lot better. I was angry at this man, so in a very disturbing way I was not facing the situation, and basically did not act on what I was feeling was the right thing to do, but rather I was acting on an evil way and just sort of let the wind blow, you know what I'm saying?

I'd like to clarify that I think this kind of reactions are results of a poor diet and attacks from hungry entities.