Does DMT experience take place in a dimension with non-Euclidean hyperbolic geometry?

DiscoveringTruth

The Force is Strong With This One
I read a very interesting article a few months ago while researching about characterization of psychedelic experiences which lies at the intersection of "Inner and Outer Sciences". I am interested in understanding the nature of mystical or psychedelic experiences and what they may reveal about the hyper-dimensional nature of the universe.

DMT in particular it seems can reveal an objectively deeper, hidden, hyper dimensional nature of reality which is vastly different from everyday experience. I feel DMT research in particular is going to bear more fruit in this regard because DMT experiences are the furthest removed from ordinary reality among those offered by other psychedelic drugs (such as peyote, mushrooms, LSD). DMT experiences are more vivid and many people who come out of the experience talk about meeting entities, seeing mathematical structures such as a torus room with an entity in the middle, and a profound lack of sense of time which is interesting considering that the Cs say time doesn't exist.

If one disregards the idea that DMT is just a hallucination fabricated by the mind (for materialists, even normal waking reality is a hallucination made up by the brain), and observes the DMT space with a mathematically trained eye, one may be surprised to find that the experience seems to occur in a space which follows more and more non-Euclidean hyperbolic geometry principles as the dosage of DMT increases. To be clear, I am not proposing anyone take DMT to test this out since DMT can trigger a highly uncontrolled experience dependent on mood and beliefs of the person but my intent is to glean whatever interesting information I can from people who have taken the substance and have tried to understand the phenomenon from a mathematical perspective. The article (linked below) proposes a way to characterize the experience of the DMT space mathematically, which is a unique approach to the phenomenon and I am hopeful that further research in this direction will reveal even more information about hyperspaces and perhaps even other densities someday. I hope this may even be useful to @ark as he strives to build a mathematical framework for concepts of consciousness, UFT etc.

Here is the full article referenced in the para earlier - The Hyperbolic Geometry of DMT experiences. Here is a snippet from the article -

What about DMT suggests hyperbolic geometry?​

Why should we believe that phenomenal space on DMT (and to a lesser extent on other psychedelics) becomes hyperbolic-like? We will argue that the features people use to describe their trips as well as concrete mathematical observations of such features point directly to hyperbolic geometry. Here is a list of such features (arranged from least to most suggestive… you know, for dramatic effect):
  1. Perception of far-out travel (as we said, small movements in hyperbolic space lead to huge changes in the scene).
  2. Feelings of becoming big (you can fit a lot more inside a circle of radius r in hyperbolic space).
  3. The space experienced is often depicted as “more real and more dense than normal”.
  4. The use of terms like “mind-expanding” and “warping” to describe the effects of the drug are very common.
  5. People describing it as “a different kind of space” and frequently using the word “hyperspace” to talk about it.
  6. Difficulty integrating/remembering the objects and scenes experienced (e.g. “they were too alien to recall”).
  7. Constant movement/acceleration and change of perspectives which are often described as “unfolding scenes and expanding patterns” (cf. the chrysanthemum, jitterbox).
  8. Continuous change of the scene’s context through escape routes: A door that leads to a labyrinth that leads to branching underground tunnels that lead to mirror rooms that lead to endless windows, and the one you take leading you to a temple with thirty seven gates which lead you to a kale salad world etc. (example).
  9. Crowding of scene beyond the limits of Euclidean space (users frequently wondering “How was I able to fit so much in my mind? I don’t see any space for my experience to fit in here!”)
  10. Reported similarity with fractals.
  11. Omnipresence of saddles making up the structural constraints of the hallucinated scenes. For example, one often hears about experiencing scenes saturated with: joints, twists, bifurcations, curved alleys, knots, and double helixes.
  12. Looking at self-similar objects (such as cauliflowers) can get you lost in what seems like endless space. (Note: beware of the potential side effects of looking at a cauliflower on DMT*).
  13. PSIS-like experiences where people seem to experience multiple alternative outcomes from each event at the same time (this may be the result of “hyperbolic branching” through time rather than space).
  14. Psychedelic replication pictures usually include features that can be interpreted as hyperbolic objects embedded in Euclidean 3D.
  15. People describe “incredibly advanced mechanisms” and “impossible objects” that cannot be represented in our usual reality (e.g. Terence Mckenna’s self-dribbling basketballs).
  16. At least one mathematician has stated that what one experiences on DMT cannot be translated into Euclidian geometry (unlike what one experiences on LSD).
  17. We received a series of systematic DMT trip-reports by a math enthusiast and experienced psychonaut who claims that the surfaces experienced on DMT are typically composed of hyperbolic tilings (which imply a negative curvature; cf. wallpaper groups).
This article goes beyond claiming a mere connection between DMT and hyperbolic geometry. We will be more specific by addressing the aspects of the experience that can be interpreted geometrically. To do so, let us now turn to a phenomenological description of the way DMT experiences usually unfold:

The Phenomenology of DMT experiences: The 6 Levels​

In order to proceed we will give an account of a typical vaporized DMT experience. You can think of the following six sections as stages or levels of a DMT journey. Let me explain. The highest level you get to depends on the dose consumed, and in high doses one experiences all of the levels, one at a time, and in quick succession (i.e. on high doses these levels are perceived as the stages of the experience). If one takes just enough DMT to cross over to the highest level one reaches during the journey for only a brief moment, then that level will probably be described as “the peak of the experience”. If, on the other hand, one takes a dose that squarely falls within the milligram range for producing a given level, it will be felt as more of a “plateau”. Each level is sufficiently distinct from the others that people will rarely miss the transitions between them.

The six levels of a DMT experience are: Threshold, Chrysanthemum, Magic Eye, Waiting Room, Breakthrough, and Amnesia. Let us dive in!

(Note: The following description assumes that the self-experimenter is in good physical and mental health at the time of consuming the DMT. It is well known that negative states of consciousness can lead to incomprehensible hellscapes when “boosted” by DMT (please avoid DMT at all costs while you are drunk, depressed, angry, suicidal, irritable, etc.). The full geometry is best appreciated on a mentally and emotionally balanced set and settings.)

The article goes in greater depth than this snippet and may be difficult to understand on a first read. Here is a simpler ELI5 (Explain it to me Like I'm 5yrs old) version of the original article by the same author - ELI5 “The Hyperbolic Geometry of DMT Experiences”

ELI5 “The Hyperbolic Geometry of DMT Experiences”​

Posted on May 28, 2017 by algekalipso

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I wrote the following in response to a comment on the r/RationalPsychonaut subreddit about this DMT article I wrote some time ago. The comment in question was: “Can somebody eli5 [explain like I am 5 years old] this for me?” So here is my attempt (more like “eli12”, but anyways):​

In order to explain the core idea of the article I need to convey the main takeaways of the following four things:
  1. Differential geometry,
  2. How it relates to symmetry,
  3. How it applies to experience, and
  4. How the effects of DMT turn out to be explained (in part) by changes in the curvature of one’s experience of space (what we call “phenomenal space”).

1) Differential Geometry​

If you are an ant on a ball, it may seem like you live on a “flat surface”. However, let’s imagine you do the following: You advance one centimeter in one direction, you turn 90 degrees and walk another centimeter, turn 90 degrees again and advance yet another centimeter. Logically, you just “traced three edges of a square” so you cannot be in the same place from which you departed. But let’s says that you somehow do happen to arrive at the same place. What happened? Well, it turns out the world in which you are walking is not quite flat! It’s very flat from your point of view, but overall it is a sphere! So you ARE able to walk along a triangle that happens to have three 90 degree corners.
That’s what we call a “positively curved space”. There the angles of triangles add up to more than 180 degrees. In flat spaces they add up to 180. And in “negatively curved spaces” (i.e. “negative Gaussian curvature” as talked about in the article) they add up to less than 180 degrees.
oct

Eight 90-degree triangles on the surface of a sphere
So let’s go back to the ant again. Now imagine that you are walking on some surface that, again, looks flat from your restricted point of view. You walk one centimeter, then turn 90 degrees, then walk another, turn 90 degrees, etc. for a total of, say, 5 times. And somehow you arrive at the same point! So now you traced a pentagon with 90 degree corners. How is that possible? The answer is that you are now in a “negatively curved space”, a kind of surface that in mathematics is called “hyperbolic”. Of course it sounds impossible that this could happen in real life. But the truth is that there are many hyperbolic surfaces that you can encounter in your daily life. Just to give an example, kale is a highly hyperbolic 2D surface (“H2” for short). It’s crumbly and very curved. So an ant might actually be able to walk along a regular pentagon with 90-degree corners if it’s walking on kale (cf. Too Many Triangles).
kale

An ant walking on kale may infer that the world is an H2 space.
In brief, hyperbolic geometry is the study of spaces that have this quality of negative curvature. Now, how is this related to symmetry?

2) How it relates to symmetry​

As mentioned, on the surface of a sphere you can find triangles with 90 degree corners. In fact, you can partition the surface of a sphere into 8 regular triangles, each with 90 degree corners. Now, there are also other ways of partitioning the surface of a sphere with regular shapes (“regular” in the sense that every edge has the same length, and every corner has the same angle). But the number of ways to do it is not infinite. After all, there’s only a handful of regular polyhedra (which, when “inflated”, are equivalent to the ways of partitioning the surface of a sphere in regular ways).
Weinberg-1-102711_jpg_630x171_crop_q85

If you instead want to partition a plane in a regular way with geometric shapes, you don’t have many options. You can partition it using triangles, squares, and hexagons. And in all of those cases, the angles on each of the vertices will add up to 360 degrees (e.g. six triangles, four squares, or thee corners of hexagons meeting at a point). I won’t get into Wallpaper groups, but suffice it to say that there are also a limited number of ways of breaking down a flat surface using symmetry elements (such as reflections, rotations, etc.).
tiling2

Regular tilings of 2D flat space
Hyperbolic 2D surfaces can be partitioned in regular ways in an infinite number of ways! This is because we no longer have the constraints imposed by flat (or spherical) geometries where the angles of shapes must add up to a certain number of degrees. As mentioned, in hyperbolic surfaces the corners of triangles add up to less than 180 degrees, so you can fit more than 6 corners of equilateral triangles at one point (and depending on the curvature of the space, you can fit up to an infinite number of them). Likewise, you can tessellate the entire hyperbolic plane with heptagons.
61b801a08a7ef2780e96e0a574b82136

Hyperbolic tiling: Each of the heptagons is just as big (i.e. this is a projection of the real thing)
On the flip side, if you see a regular partitioning of a surface, you can infer what its curvature is! For example, if you see that a surface is entirely covered with heptagons, three on each of the corners, you can be sure that you are seeing a hyperbolic surface. And if you see a surface covered with triangles such that there are only four triangles on each joint, then you know you are seeing a spherical surface. So if you train yourself to notice and count these properties in regular patterns, you will indirectly also be able to determine whether the patterns inhabit a spherical, flat, or hyperbolic space!

3) How it applies to experience​

How does this apply to experience? Well, in sober states of consciousness one is usually restricted to seeing and imagining spherical and flat surfaces (and their corresponding symmetric partitions). One can of course look at a piece of kale and think “wow, that’s a hyperbolic surface” but what is impossible to do is to see it “as if it were flat”. One can only see hyperbolic surfaces as projections (i.e. where we make regular shapes look irregular so that they can fit on a flat surface) or we end up contorting the surface in a crumbly fashion in order to fit it in our flat experiential space. (Note: even sober phenomenal space happens to be based on projective geometry; but let’s not go there for now.)

4) DMT: Hyperbolizing Phenomenal Space​

In psychedelic states it is common to experience whatever one looks at (or, with more stunning effects, whatever one hallucinates in a sensorially-deprived environment such as a flotation tank) as slowly becoming more and more symmetric. Symmetrical patterns are attractors in psychedelia. It’s common for people to describe their acid experiences as “a kaleidoscope of colors and meaning”. We should not be too quick to dismiss these descriptions as purely metaphorical. As you can see from the article Algorithmic Reduction of Psychedelic States as well as PsychonautWiki’s Symmetrical Texture Repetition, LSD and other psychedelics do in fact “symmetrify” the textures you experience!
8697209364_91f2ab133e_h

What gravel might look like on 150 mics of LSD (Source)
As it turns out, this symmetrification process (what we call “lowering the symmetry detection/propagation threshold”) does allow one to experience any of the possible ways of breaking down spherical and flat surfaces in regular ways (in addition to also enabling the experience of any wallpaper group!). Thus the surfaces of the objects one hallucinates on LSD (specially for Closed Eyes Visuals), are usually carpeted with patterns that have either spherical or flat symmetries (e.g. seeing honeycombs, square grids, regular triangulations, etc.; or seeing dodecahedra, cubes, etc.).
wade_symmetry_best_blank_2

17 wallpaper symmetry groups
Only on very high doses of classic psychedelics does one start to experience objects that have hyperbolic curvature. And this is where DMT becomes very relevant. Vaping it is one of the most efficient ways of achieving “unworldly levels of psychedelia”:
On DMT the “symmetry detection threshold” is reduced to such an extent that any surface you look at very quickly gets super-saturated with regular patterns. Since (for reasons we don’t understand) our brain tries to incorporate whatever shape you hallucinate into the scene as part of the scene, the result of seeing too many triangles (or heptagons, or whatever) is that your brain will “push them into the surfaces” and, in effect, turn those surfaces into hyperbolic spaces.
HeptagonsIndrasPearls

Yet another part of your brain (or system of consciousness, whatever it turns out to be) recognizes that “wait, this is waaaay too curved somehow, let me try to shape it into something that could actually exist in my universe”. Hence, in practice, if you take between 10 and 20 mg of DMT, the hyperbolic surfaces you see will become bent and contorted (similar to the pictures you find in the article) just so that they can be “embedded” (a term that roughly means “to fit some object into a space without distorting its properties too much”) into your experience of the space around you.
But then there’s a critical point at which this is no longer possible: Even the most contorted embeddings of the hyperbolic surfaces you experience cannot fit any longer in your normal experience of space on doses above 20 mg, so your mind has no other choice but to change the curvature of the 3D space around you! Thus when you go from “very high on DMT” to “super high on DMT” it feels like you are traveling to an entirely new dimension, where the objects you experience do not fit any longer into the normal world of human experience. They exist in H3 (hyperbolic 3D space). And this is in part why it is so extremely difficult to convey the subjective quality of these experiences. One needs to invoke mathematical notions that are unfamiliar to most people; and even then, when they do understand the math, the raw feeling of changing the damn geometry of your experience is still a lot weirder than you could ever anticipate.
hexagon_sphere_plane_hyp_032

Anybody else want to play hyperbolic soccer? Humans vs. Entities, the match of the eon!

Note: The original article goes into more depth​

Now that you understand the gist of the original article, I encourage you to take a closer look at it, as it includes content that I didn’t touch in this ELI5 (or 12) summary. It provides a granular description of the 6 levels of DMT experience (Threshold, Chrysanthemum, Magic Eye, Waiting Room, Breakthrough, and Amnesia), many pictures to illustrate the various levels as well as the particular emergent geometries, and a theoretical discussion of the various algorithmic reductions that might explain how the hyperbolization of phenomenal space takes place based on combining a series of simpler effects together.

From another article on the same website - Algorithmic Reduction of Psychedelic States
Every acid head and psychedelic researcher has a pet theory of what these compounds are really doing in one’s mind. Many of these folk theories about the effects of psychedelics involve ontologies that currently have little scientific support (such as souls, thought fields, spirit worlds, archetypes, alien conspiracies, and so on). Although we cannot rule out explanations of this sort (talking about conventional explanations of DMT experiences) out of hand, the ontologies themselves are so abstract and poorly defined that we cannot accept them as useful forms of reductions. That said, their future versions will be more interesting. It is likely that committed, rational, spiritual psychedelic users will formalize models of this sort at some point. Rather than talking about a “spirit world,” they will talk about “mind-independent extra-dimensional space that consciousness can access in altered states” and then go on to define the differential equations that govern consciousness’s interactions with this space. When this happens, we will be in a much better position to assess the validity of these models, test the reality of those spaces, and perhaps even recruit the extra-dimensional inhabitants of these worlds for computational tasks.

Wanted to share in light of @ark's recent April 2022 Cassiopaean session discussion. Happy to hear your thoughts!
 

Alma.Innovadora

Jedi Council Member
DMT in particular it seems can reveal an objectively deeper, hidden, hyper dimensional nature of reality which is vastly different from everyday experience. I feel DMT research in particular is going to bear more fruit in this regard because DMT experiences are the furthest removed from ordinary reality among those offered by other psychedelic drugs (such as peyote, mushrooms, LSD). DMT experiences are more vivid and many people who come out of the experience talk about meeting entities, seeing mathematical structures such as a torus room with an entity in the middle, and a profound lack of sense of time which is interesting considering that the Cs say time doesn't exist.

DMT is a tryptamine alkaloid with powerful hallucinogenic effects. It is popularly known as the 'sacred molecule' or 'God molecule'.

In short, are they equally using drugs with different abbreviations to make it seem more "scientific" and higher doses to make it "more vivid" and since they are more vivid they are more "objective"? The further it takes us away from reality, the better?... Those issues have been addressed throughout the Wave and I recently read this:

Q: (F) In other words, an LSD trip is sort of a glimpse of 4th density.(L) Do you recommend this method of accessing that kind of reality?
A: Open. [This answer reflects the reluctance of the Cassiopaeans to recommend anything that would alter free will].

Q: (T) The problem is that most human beings may be tempted to permanently resort to that method instead of doing the work required to reach those states naturally.
A: Right.


And In the book The Secret History of the World, natural and synthetic substances are explained in a very nuanced and easy to understand way. The obsession to change from "down here" the spiritual state of things "up there".
 

MatiaS

Jedi
Here's my take on DMT.

I believe our brains produce it naturally, and if the theories are to be believed, it can be found in high concentrations in the brain at; the moment of birth, the moment of death, during NDE experiences, during deep states of meditation and when we dream. The compound is also found throughout the plant kingdom.

If this is true, it's plausible that it is in fact a sort of 'spirit molecule', as it serves as a bridge between ordinary and non-ordinary states of consciousness. I've theorized in the past that the molecule itself could be the physical manifestation of 'spirit'. As 'spirit' - as we normally would think about it - is non-physical in nature, perhaps this molecule serves as a kind of portal through which our awareness can glimpse at the underlying reality.

So just as an opioid addict is getting "high on his own supply" of opiates (through injecting i.e. heroin), the DMT (or LSD or mushroom) user is able to take a chemically induced shortcut to experience non-ordinary states of consciousness in moments where it would not normally occur.

I've smoked DMT in the past on a number of occasions and I do remember that the feeling of naturalness is very profound. It feels as if it's very natural for my mind to have these experiences. I think that in our 4th density mode of being, our day-to-day/moment-to-moment reality would be something along the lines of what we now call a 'trip', or to use another word; a dream.

The earliest memories I can recall from my childhood also have this 'trip' feeling to them. I remember lying in bed and looking at the patterns in the ceiling and they would move very similarly to what I've experienced during psychedelic experiences. I also remember how meaningful and adventurous life was as a kid. Everything had the potential to be an epic quest or journey. The same goes for these hallucinogenic experiences.

I wouldn't advocate recreational use of these substances (I can't even understand people who are able to do that), but the therapeutic value is documented and definitely worth some consideration.

Every night when we dream we're having hallucinogenic experiences, and what I think these substances do, is momentarily thinning the veil between the two halves of reality, allowing the person to experience and perceive more of the normally unseen aspects of reality.

To make it clear, I don't think entheogens can "lead to enlightenment" as seems to be a common idea among the psychonauts out there, but it's clear to me that these plants and substances have been considered sacred for a reason, and we've been using them for a long time. As with everything, there's a time and a place, and given the correct intentions and psychological makeup, the 'trip' that these things can provide can be an invaluable catalyst for healing and changing one's perception of reality for the better. This does in no way negate the Work on oneself in a sober state of mind, on the contrary, if done properly, the memory of the 'trip' will stay as a vivid reminder to apply whatever insights that might have been gleaned.

Just as people coming out of a near-death-experience, it's not uncommon for people to have a completely altered (for the better) view of reality after having undergone a trip. A high dose of DMT could pretty much be an "artificially induced NDE".
 

SOTTREADER

The Living Force
Here's my take on DMT.

I believe our brains produce it naturally, and if the theories are to be believed, it can be found in high concentrations in the brain at; the moment of birth, the moment of death, during NDE experiences, during deep states of meditation and when we dream. The compound is also found throughout the plant kingdom.

If this is true, it's plausible that it is in fact a sort of 'spirit molecule', as it serves as a bridge between ordinary and non-ordinary states of consciousness. I've theorized in the past that the molecule itself could be the physical manifestation of 'spirit'. As 'spirit' - as we normally would think about it - is non-physical in nature, perhaps this molecule serves as a kind of portal through which our awareness can glimpse at the underlying reality.

So just as an opioid addict is getting "high on his own supply" of opiates (through injecting i.e. heroin), the DMT (or LSD or mushroom) user is able to take a chemically induced shortcut to experience non-ordinary states of consciousness in moments where it would not normally occur.

I've smoked DMT in the past on a number of occasions and I do remember that the feeling of naturalness is very profound. It feels as if it's very natural for my mind to have these experiences. I think that in our 4th density mode of being, our day-to-day/moment-to-moment reality would be something along the lines of what we now call a 'trip', or to use another word; a dream.

The earliest memories I can recall from my childhood also have this 'trip' feeling to them. I remember lying in bed and looking at the patterns in the ceiling and they would move very similarly to what I've experienced during psychedelic experiences. I also remember how meaningful and adventurous life was as a kid. Everything had the potential to be an epic quest or journey. The same goes for these hallucinogenic experiences.

I wouldn't advocate recreational use of these substances (I can't even understand people who are able to do that), but the therapeutic value is documented and definitely worth some consideration.

Every night when we dream we're having hallucinogenic experiences, and what I think these substances do, is momentarily thinning the veil between the two halves of reality, allowing the person to experience and perceive more of the normally unseen aspects of reality.

To make it clear, I don't think entheogens can "lead to enlightenment" as seems to be a common idea among the psychonauts out there, but it's clear to me that these plants and substances have been considered sacred for a reason, and we've been using them for a long time. As with everything, there's a time and a place, and given the correct intentions and psychological makeup, the 'trip' that these things can provide can be an invaluable catalyst for healing and changing one's perception of reality for the better. This does in no way negate the Work on oneself in a sober state of mind, on the contrary, if done properly, the memory of the 'trip' will stay as a vivid reminder to apply whatever insights that might have been gleaned.

Just as people coming out of a near-death-experience, it's not uncommon for people to have a completely altered (for the better) view of reality after having undergone a trip. A high dose of DMT could pretty much be an "artificially induced NDE".

Coming from the other side of the fence - what continues to be my biggest word of caution is that there are no stronger substances for formenting delusion and psychosis upon the user than these substances. My main reason for saying this is - there's absolutely no way to know if what you are experiencing is not pure delusion yet somehow the majority think they are getting some sort of "insights". At most what I think can be said is that one may see or feel things that don't correspond to what one normally see's or feels but there's no way of knowing if these represent something useful, valuable or objective. If anything I say these things put one in the most vulnerable position of being manipulated because of the fact that they think they've opened the doorway to something "special", "sacred" or "unique". A good chunk of people certainly come out of these experiences with egos the size of Jupiter and proceed to be preachers and advocates but in my opinion they are advocates of delusion. Certainly I know a few and all I'll say is they are all "triple covid jabbed".

My argument remains that reality is what you experience on the daily - it might be mundane, boring, archaic but this is what we have to work with. If we happen to be ready for another reality, then that will become what we experience normally, without the need for substances etc. OSIT. Also, do spare a thought for schizophrenics who have no choice but be stuck in a state where they are experiencing things that certainly don't correspond to our "shared" reality and they certainly can't escape it or even have a baseline of what is considered "normal" by the overwhelming majority i.e., 99.999999% of the population.

Anyways, appreciate the above could be dismissive of psychedelic experiences or appear uninformed but worth throwing the other side of the fence into consideration. 😁
 
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John G

The Living Force
Yeah even if psychedelic drugs worked for Timothy Leary and the Ouija board worked for Laura, those kind of things aren't generally recommended for people to experiment with since you can end up with some medical or possession horror stories. Ark has written about hyperbolic geometry and it certainly could relate to things like channeling and time travel. Doing Philadelphia Experiment-like experiments even if one knew how would also likely be not recommended since you could end up with Philadelphia Experiment-like horror stories.
 

Alma.Innovadora

Jedi Council Member
My main reason for saying this is - there's absolutely no way to know if what you are experiencing is not pure delusion yet somehow the majority think they are getting some sort of "insights".

They always talk about things "for the better" but never take into account the cons and will not say so out of ignorance. It's like looking for the direct miracle.

I think that even if it is an illusion, it is information, isn't it? that's what we use every day. The information that what you are experiencing may not lead you to the expected answer, but it is still a result. Not having enough knowledge to understand the "abstract" of that other side, because obviously we are not there yet to understand it, is the limiting factor. I keep thinking sometimes that even among their obsessions, perhaps, remotely possible, they may come across an incredible result, right under their noses, and yet they cannot recognize it because their expectations were different too.

The problem is thinking that by "going up" everything is beautiful and there is no evil lurking in the darkest dimensional corners even from within themselves.

They have their dope, we have the E.E. 🖖

even if one knew how would also likely be not recommended since you could end up with Philadelphia Experiment-like horror stories.

If you knew how to use it, you would first present in a responsible way the measures to be taken to get involved in. Like the Ouija, Mrs. Laura has not banned its use, she has shared her knowledge and the groundwork to consider and the consequences of not doing so. From there on, it is up to each one how to get involved, but the tools were already given. The obsession of some to skip those fundamental steps is what leads them to have what you describe.
 

Kay Kim

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I read a very interesting article a few months ago while researching about characterization of psychedelic experiences which lies at the intersection of "Inner and Outer Sciences". I am interested in understanding the nature of mystical or psychedelic experiences and what they may reveal about the hyper-dimensional nature of the universe.

DMT in particular it seems can reveal an objectively deeper, hidden, hyper dimensional nature of reality which is vastly different from everyday experience. I feel DMT research in particular is going to bear more fruit in this regard because DMT experiences are the furthest removed from ordinary reality among those offered by other psychedelic drugs (such as peyote, mushrooms, LSD

Hello DiscoveringTruth, I don’t know what is DMT, but I assume that is also one of the psychedelic substance.
Anyway, I found one of the Laura’s post that explains about DMT.
And I added few other information about dangers of taking psychedelic substance.

There is something important to know about lying and lying to the self and believing the lies of others no matter how sincere they are. I wrote about this in another thread, but it serves well in this one, too.

I've been noticing a LOT of "regular folks" who are only casually interested in "spiritual development" lately mentioning the DMT path as probably the way to go. This is the consequence of this years long propaganda campaign of which people like Graham Hancock and Colin Wilson are participants.

Now, both of them - and many others - come across as being VERY sincere. I keep reiterating that a person can be an "agent" and be the most sincere, well-meaning person on the planet. If they would read my Wave series, they would have read about living examples.

The easiest way to understand this is to watch the movie "Arlington Road"; there you will get a rather graphic lesson in how the sincerest, nicest guy in the world can be used to destroy.

Part of the problem is the way we are inculcated into lies. As Castaneda described it:

Don Juan said:
'I want to appeal to your analytical mind, ' don Juan said. 'Think for a moment, and tell me how you would explain the contradiction between the intelligence of man the engineer and the stupidity of his systems of beliefs, or the stupidity of his contradictory behavior. Sorcerers believe that the predators have given us our systems of beliefs, our ideas of good and evil, our social mores. They are the ones who set up our hopes and expectations and dreams of success or failure. They have given us covetousness, greed and cowardice. It is the predators who make us complacent, routinary, and egomaniacal.' (Castaneda, 1998, pp. 213-220)


This is more REAL than most people imagine. These systems of false belief allow our energy of awareness to be eaten constantly. How?

An energy drain can be one's belief in a lie. In other words, if there is someone close who is lying or who is deceived themselves, and you buy into it, you have just connected yourself to the ultimate source of that lie energetically. This can drain your energy, befuddle your mind, and your own psychic energy can be used against you in your own environment.

This is what is happening to so many in the so-called "New Age Movement."

Q: I want to you have lost a fan because he was not happy with what he considered to be "internal inconsistencies" in that you were NOT favorably disposed toward hallucinations produced by substances such as Mescaline and Ayahuasca, but yet you recommend Melatonin because it is a hallucinogen. Then, you said that spiritual powers could not be obtained through chemicals or plant type means, but then said that Melatonin exercises psychic abilities. Could you comment on this?

A: Several comments: First of all, "fan" is short for "fanatic." Secondly, melatonin does not force an alteration in physiological brain chemicals, as do mescaline, peyote, LSD, etc. Accessing the higher levels of psychical awareness through such processes is harmful to the balance levels of the prime chakra. This is because it alters the natural rhythms of psychic development by causing reliance on the part of the subject, thus subjugating the learning process. It is a form of self-imposed abridging of free will

Yes

Q: (L) Okay. Now, I have a question I want to ask. I received a message from an individual on Facebook. She says,

"I was wondering if you could ask the C's about a friend that went missing 2 years ago. I just found out last week, and was saddened to hear the news. Kim was a writer for Natural News."

(L) Apparently, this girl had gone to Ecuador and was engaged in taking mescaline or something, and she had a breakdown or something. Then she left home, never to be seen again.

(L) Okay, the girl's name is Kim Evans, and she went missing in 2013. The story is kind of weird. She left with $400, a small suitcase, her passport, and...

(Andromeda) She said she'd be right back.

Q: (L) Is this person still alive in the body?

A: No


Q: (Pierre) How did she die?

A: Driven by voices to expose herself to danger.

Q: (Andromeda) Whose voices?

A: In her head.

Q: (L) And what was the source of these voices?

A: Entities hanging around

Q: (L) Were these entities hanging around because of her encounter with psychedelic drugs?

A: Partly but she was also mentally and psychically vulnerable due to genetic factors.

Q: (L) Let me just make a statement here. People who have particular genetic vulnerabilities should not participate in hallucinogenic drug activities? Is that a reasonable assumption to make?

A: Yes

Q: (L) But then people don't always know whether they're genetically vulnerable, do they?

A: No

Q: (L) Anything else to say about it?

(Galatea) Is there a way to determine if someone is genetically vulnerable?

A: No

Q: (Perceval) Just don't be messing with psychedelic drugs, no matter who you are. That sounds reasonable.

(Chu) What kind of danger did she expose herself to?

A: Places people.

Q: (Perceval) Was she murdered?

A: Yes

Q: (Perceval) So she fell in with the very wrong crowd.

A: All should be aware of the potentials for entity interference when utilizing psychedelics. They can be beneficial in some cases but with care

(Galatea) Related, is it okay for us to meditate in order to increase our psychic abilities? Is it safe?

A: Yes
 

Alma.Innovadora

Jedi Council Member
Q: (Perceval) Just don't be messing with psychedelic drugs, no matter who you are. That sounds reasonable.

"Comparing my shamanic experience without the use of narcotics with the one Hancock describes in his book (which did include drug use), I think the attentive reader will have noticed the difference. It seems that drug-induced experiences open the door to other realms, but they are usually lower realms where no one would care to stay for an instant."
 

DiscoveringTruth

The Force is Strong With This One
Thanks for your inputs!

My original post did not have the intended outcome. I wanted to focus more on the hyperbolic geometry aspects of the DMT experience rather than delve into the pros and cons of DMT or psychedelics in general.

To summarise what the Cs and Laura have said (and which is rightfully very reasonable) regarding risks associated with psychedelics in general is as follows -
  1. Outright delusion - hallucinations born out of one's deeply held belief systems and expectations (eg. seeing Santa Claus when high).
  2. Escapism - Attachment to altered consciousness states due to hallucinations (as noted above) or feelings of "love" and "oneness" and therefore a negligence of our actual waking reality which is where we have to take actions and learn lessons for ultimate spiritual progress.
  3. Free will abridgement - Using substances that are not endogenously produced in the body (as opposed to melatonin) and thereby limiting, in that people find in them a shortcut to so called "higher" experiences and avoid doing the actual work in the daily mundane, hectic business of everyday living which may produce analogue substances within the body naturally, thus limiting one's potential for accessing these or even higher states (since the receptors for the action of these substances already exist in the brain, there must be naturally occurring and endogenously produced substances that trigger the same pathways and experiences).
  4. Interference from entities - Negative influence from entities hanging out in these realms (which may be the lowest realms in 4D or up) in one's daily life, entities who may not have one's best interests in mind and may lead to self harm, possession, energy drainage and even death due to a person's genetic predisposition or other factors! This path pursued to the exclusion of every other path of knowledge, is unbalanced. It leads to uncritical or subjective acceptance of whatever is being perceived as "good" and thus opens one to harm.
The risks are real and well-documented. I'm NOT advising anyone to start taking DMT now or in the future for whatever reason, even though we should keep an open mind that in SOME circumstances for SOME people and in SPECIFIC doses (maybe even micro-doses) these substances may have SOME benefit eg for PTSD, anxiety etc. We can still have an open, healthy, skeptical attitude for discussion of this phenomenon. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Within the general framework of gaining knowledge, if this phenomenon does produce a real "opening" to an actual 4D or higher density for even a minor fraction of the users, an understanding of the mathematical properties of such dimensions MAY be useful in formulating a Unified Field Theory or understanding how the consciousness of the field and that of the wave reading unit/the self interacts. I may be wrong, there may be much better ways to achieve the same in physics via the help of EE/meditation/the board/networking/subconscious channeling/using one's god given grey matter along with imagination (the way Einstein perhaps did) or all of the above combined. This knowledge may spark an idea or inspire someone to connect a few dots or it may not, who knows and that's the fun of doing research with an open mind. My main motivation is to discuss whatever properties of other densities this phenomenon may point towards, without falling into the traps and risks associated with psychedelics that I have listed above.
 
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Alma.Innovadora

Jedi Council Member
My original post did not have the intended outcome. I wanted to focus more on the hyperbolic geometry aspects of the DMT experience rather than delve into the pros and cons of DMT or psychedelics in general.

I tried to understand it and nothing, I don't know what hyperbolic geometry is, but what you present seems to only focus on how DMT can serve to possibly enter other densities. As far as I understand it, the experience of using DMT is described as hyperbolic, but it doesn't mean, that one are experiencing a certain level of density in a hyperbolic experiencing. Maybe that's why you didn't get the desired answer?

"opening" to an actual 4D or higher density

Putting together drugs, science and people in need, I still see the false expectation and desire to jump the natural way of things is present. That talk of hyperbolic geometry, is only justification to enter where it doesn't belong prematurely, momentarily and offer escapism. That all these quick fix methods for the needs to "cure" someone, is the cover, and precisely in that, there are no paths without traps.

If the densities correspond to the level of consciousness, what can be expected when using them on people with problems? that they are vehicles of input and exchange for others, among other things.

(Note: The following description assumes that the self-experimenter is in good physical and mental health at the time of consuming the DMT. It is well known that negative states of consciousness can lead to incomprehensible hellscapes when “boosted” by DMT (please avoid DMT at all costs while you are drunk, depressed, angry, suicidal, irritable, etc.). The full geometry is best appreciated on a mentally and emotionally balanced set and settings.)

If a person is mentally and emotionally stable, why use it? if they're not, isn't it kind of cruel (laughs)?

A: you have suicidal thoughts, you can't use it
B: but I need it!
A: You must be emotionally and mentally stable, get help first.


What kind of help would that be?

Experimenting is fine, open minded of course, but instead of throwing the baby out with the water, I think at the level of DMT Let us dive! (as they themselves say)... oh yeah! I think they would already be drowning the baby in their own water!
 

DiscoveringTruth

The Force is Strong With This One
I tried to understand it and nothing, I don't know what hyperbolic geometry is, but what you present seems to only focus on how DMT can serve to possibly enter other densities. As far as I understand it, the experience of using DMT is described as hyperbolic, but it doesn't mean, that one are experiencing a certain level of density in a hyperbolic experiencing. Maybe that's why you didn't get the desired answer?
This is one explanation of hyperbolic geometry. Another one on non Euclidean geometry.

Putting together drugs, science and people in need, I still see the false expectation and desire to jump the natural way of things is present. That talk of hyperbolic geometry, is only justification to enter where it doesn't belong prematurely, momentarily and offer escapism. That all these quick fix methods for the needs to "cure" someone, is the cover, and precisely in that, there are no paths without traps.

For our question, we do not need to presume there is a desire to jump the natural way of things. We can talk about and study higher densities and perhaps find a scientific theory in which they find an explanation without presuming this. The findings may be useful to 3D, not just 4D experience.

If the densities correspond to the level of consciousness, what can be expected when using them on people with problems? that they are vehicles of input and exchange for others, among other things.
Well, that's the idea, to understand this phenomenon in at least this one aspect - that of hyperbolic geometry.

If a person is mentally and emotionally stable, why use it? if they're not, isn't it kind of cruel (laughs)?
The discussion is more geared towards understanding experiences of other people who have highlighted certain common themes or properties of the space of their experience. Again, not asking anyone on the forum or elsewhere whether mentally and emotionally stable or otherwise, to try it and see.

A: you have suicidal thoughts, you can't use it
B: but I need it!
A: You must be emotionally and mentally stable, get help first.


What kind of help would that be?

Experimenting is fine, open minded of course, but instead of throwing the baby out with the water, I think at the level of DMT Let us dive! (as they themselves say)... oh yeah! I think they would already be drowning the baby in their own water!
That "they" all think this way is a broad sweeping characterisation of the people involved in this research which is not necessarily applicable for everyone interested in such research. "Help" would be in the form of sorting out your daily life first, not being dissociated in daily life, being disciplined, having worked through your programs, triggers, unconscious beliefs and biases etc.
 

MatiaS

Jedi
I just want to say that I'm totally getting where you're trying to go with this @DiscoveringTruth, it's a hard topic that tends to become divisive, as many of the advocates FOR definitely get kind of tunnel vision and think that this is the best and only way, refusing to see any negatives. And on the other hand many people AGAINST dig in their heels hard, on a subject they might not even have that much knowledge about, but instead having a very generalized stance of "all illicit 'drugs' = bad" and other belief systems, overlooking the fact that shamans/medicine men have been using these plants for millennia, I would like to think for a reason other than "getting high".

I'm trying as much as possible to stay out of either camp, and - just as you're trying to do with starting this thread - have an open discussion about the possible mechanics and nuts-and-bolts of these experiences, what exactly happens to our perception when we ingest these substances? What decides what you experience? What are the psychological (and otherwise) factors (beyond 'set and setting') that decide if you have a profound healing/life-altering experience, or a psychotic nightmare episode? Is there any objective knowledge/understanding to be gained from these experiences?
 

ScioAgapeOmnis

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Thanks for your inputs!

My original post did not have the intended outcome. I wanted to focus more on the hyperbolic geometry aspects of the DMT experience rather than delve into the pros and cons of DMT or psychedelics in general.

To summarise what the Cs and Laura have said (and which is rightfully very reasonable) regarding risks associated with psychedelics in general is as follows -
  1. Outright delusion - hallucinations born out of one's deeply held belief systems and expectations (eg. seeing Santa Claus when high).
  2. Escapism - Attachment to altered consciousness states due to hallucinations (as noted above) or feelings of "love" and "oneness" and therefore a negligence of our actual waking reality which is where we have to take actions and learn lessons for ultimate spiritual progress.
  3. Free will abridgement - Using substances that are not endogenously produced in the body (as opposed to melatonin) and thereby limiting, in that people find in them a shortcut to so called "higher" experiences and avoid doing the actual work in the daily mundane, hectic business of everyday living which may produce analogue substances within the body naturally, thus limiting one's potential for accessing these or even higher states (since the receptors for the action of these substances already exist in the brain, there must be naturally occurring and endogenously produced substances that trigger the same pathways and experiences).
  4. Interference from entities - Negative influence from entities hanging out in these realms (which may be the lowest realms in 4D or up) in one's daily life, entities who may not have one's best interests in mind and may lead to self harm, possession, energy drainage and even death due to a person's genetic predisposition or other factors! This path pursued to the exclusion of every other path of knowledge, is unbalanced. It leads to uncritical or subjective acceptance of whatever is being perceived as "good" and thus opens one to harm.
The risks are real and well-documented. I'm NOT advising anyone to start taking DMT now or in the future for whatever reason, even though we should keep an open mind that in SOME circumstances for SOME people and in SPECIFIC doses (maybe even micro-doses) these substances may have SOME benefit eg for PTSD, anxiety etc. We can still have an open, healthy, skeptical attitude for discussion of this phenomenon. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Within the general framework of gaining knowledge, if this phenomenon does produce a real "opening" to an actual 4D or higher density for even a minor fraction of the users, an understanding of the mathematical properties of such dimensions MAY be useful in formulating a Unified Field Theory or understanding how the consciousness of the field and that of the wave reading unit/the self interacts. I may be wrong, there may be much better ways to achieve the same in physics via the help of EE/meditation/the board/networking/subconscious channeling/using one's god given grey matter along with imagination (the way Einstein perhaps did) or all of the above combined. This knowledge may spark an idea or inspire someone to connect a few dots or it may not, who knows and that's the fun of doing research with an open mind. My main motivation is to discuss whatever properties of other densities this phenomenon may point towards, without falling into the traps and risks associated with psychedelics that I have listed above.
"we should keep an open mind that in SOME circumstances for SOME people and in SPECIFIC doses (maybe even micro-doses) these substances may have SOME benefit eg for PTSD, anxiety etc."

I think therapeutic/pharmacological uses is totally separate from all the other uses, which as you indicated is the real topic of interest in this thread - unless there's some good info on the therapeutic effects and you're genuinely excited about those prospects?

"Within the general framework of gaining knowledge, if this phenomenon does produce a real "opening" to an actual 4D or higher density for even a minor fraction of the users, an understanding of the mathematical properties of such dimensions MAY be useful in formulating a Unified Field Theory or understanding how the consciousness of the field and that of the wave reading unit/the self interacts."

I doubt that people under the influence of these drugs, even mathematicians, are likely to be coherent enough to do useful math while "hallucinating" (for lack of a better term). And if it is just a fraction of all users, then it's unlikely to include any mathematicians or physicists at all. And of course, if it is inadvisable for anyone to experiment with such substances on themselves in the first place, we may be relegated to information from people who did it anyway already, which is very tricky as well, given we know nothing about who they are, their motivation, their knowledge level, the accuracy of their recall or retelling of their experience, and so on and on.

I guess what I'm saying is, I think it would be really really hard to get any signal from a sea of noise here.

"My main motivation is to discuss whatever properties of other densities this phenomenon may point towards, without falling into the traps and risks associated with psychedelics that I have listed above."

Also as you mentioned - this is only one avenue of exploring these questions about the universe, which happens to also be particularly tricky (not that any of the other methods are easy), and of course the entire way you have to keep asking yourself "What am I looking for? Why am I looking for it? What is my method of getting there? Can I even discern anything of value from existing information or is it all too subjective and noisy? Are there better ways to do this?". It's one thing to just have a discussion, but if there's a real goal for truth, it helps to interrogate yourself about what you're doing, how and why, and do so the entire time. And I'd say the way this initial thread is going, it's basically other people performing that same interrogation, because it's definitely important.

This topic is sorta like exploring the truth using other people's channeling - not Laura's, not a scientific approach by an experienced group of truth-seeking and clear-minded people with very specific and careful and transparent methodology that they test and re-test. Instead, just take a bunch of random new age channeling on the internet and try to find a signal - try to create an actual objective cosmology from it. There's so much nonsense and noise, I'm not sure how much success you would even have. That's why Laura did her own experiment. And in a way, I'd say the success of the C's experiment and all the fruits that grew from that tree makes the drug stuff less "necessary" (for lack of a better term). Maybe for shamans that's all they could think of, that was their gateway to the mystical, but it seems like even for them it was limited, subjective, and easy to misunderstand or misuse or get damaged. It sounds like they simply didn't know they had other options.

So while I agree it's fascinating and it would be neat to understand more about it - I just can't help but ask, do we have any alternatives? Yes. Is this one noisy, subjective, and risky? Yes. So why allocate energy to it? I can't really justify it from the way I'm looking at it. Doesn't mean a discussion can't be had, I just wanted to mention my thoughts on the whole thing.
 
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Nienna

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Well-said, SAO.

If you put DMT in the search engine here, there are quite a few discussions about it. Also, trying to find a quick way to access knowledge, information and such most often ends up making the once doing this lunch.

SAO mentions shamans using hallucinagenics; Laura has said in her writings that the original shamans did not use them, they had the ability to access other "worlds". The later shamans did not, either want or were able to, do what was necessary to achieve these abilities so used substances so that they could and they were never as good as the original shamans and some of them had problems later.

I have posted the following so many times in so many places on this forum I would not be surprised that anyone would have missed reading it. And, yet, I keep seeing people here who want to do such dangerous things that I keep posting it so that others may read it and "get it" that trying to access these realms is very dangerous. So, once again, here it is:
From The Sufi Path of Knowledge by Chittick, Ibn al ‘Arabi says:

Nowadays most people interested in the spirituality of the East desire the "experience," though they may call what they are after "intimate communion with God." Those familiar with the standards and norms of spiritual experience set down by disciplined paths are usually appalled at the way Westerners seize upon any apparition from the domain outside of normal consciousness as a manifestation of the "spiritual." In fact there are innumerable realms in the unseen world, some of them far more dangerous than the worst jungles of the visible world. No person familiar with the teachings of Sufism would dare lay himself open to such forces...

And, then, there is this that Laura discusses in The Wave I (which if you haven't already read the series, you probably should) speaking of the experience of a woman who is talking about The Beautiful Lady:

She puts the robe around me and then my mind separates from my body. I can look back and see it lying there. Then we go up through the ceiling, pop out the roof, and fly into space. One night the Lady took me back in time. We were in a foreign country and the people wore old-fashioned clothes. The Lady took on the appearance of a beautiful woman in a blue robe. She performed miracles for them..."

Suddenly Ann's face turned ashen and she asked to be excused. Her scream of pain was heard from the bathroom where she had taken refuge. When Ann came out, she was sniffling and holding her abdomen. The Lady had savagely attacked her for revealing that down through history, creatures like the Lady have taken the form of saints. They then use the gullibility of humankind to misguide and misinform people so that they believe they are seeing miracles performed. Ann begged the newsman to delete that portion of the interview." (Osborn, 1982)

I think that it is very important to know about the forces that inhabit other dimensions and densities because they are not all wonderful spiritual beings that want to guide and help us. Knowledge protects and ignorance endangers could not be more applicable than in cases like these.

Laura discusses these things, and much more, in her The Wave series.
 
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