Dog's Teat growing bigger

[Deleted member 8431]

Glad to hear that Mariama!

As far as our dog food is concerned, here is the ingrediant list fwit. Perhaps we can identify some bad stuff that we should avoid.

Basic Infos

24% raw protein
12% raw fat
10% moisture
4% raw fibers
8% raw ashes

Ingredients

- yellow corn
- whole wheat flour
- wheat shorts
- chicken fat preserved w/mixed tocopherols
- beet pulp
- chicken liver digest
- dehydrated whole eggs
- lechitin
- potassium chloride (KCl)
- calcium carbonate (CaCO3)
- calcium propionate
- choline chloride
- salt
- glucosamine sulfate
- ferrous sulfate
- zinc oxide (ZnO)
- vitamin e
- proteinates (Zn, Mn, Cu)
- lactobacillus casei fermenta
- streptococus faecium
- aspergillus oryzae
- soduim selenite
- thiamin mononitrate
- cooper sulfate (CuSO4)
- calcium iodate (Ca(IO3)2)
- pyridoxine hydrochloride
- manganous oxide
- nicotinic acid
- calcium d-pantothenate
- vitamin a
- vitamin d3
- folic acid
- riboflavin
- vitamin k3
- biotin
- vitamin b12
- cobalt carbonate

------

There is so much stuff in there I almost have a stomach ache just thinking about it. Seriously, I do not have much knowledge in animal diet but this never-ending list is a red flag to my eyes. Corn? Wheat? Chemicals? Preservatives?

My uncle's sick/weak dog (mentionned in earlier posts) tent to eat feces as well. Wouldn't that suggest, as a possibility, that she is looking for nutrients that she lacks in her food?

Peace.

 

[Jones]

Not sure how the pet food labelling laws work where you are JayMark, but here the laws about the ingredient list states that the ingredients must be listed in order of bulk with the ingredient making up most of the the bulk being listed first.

Some pet food manufacturers try to give a different picture about the reality of the ingredient list by breaking grains up into their components so that they can list meat products first or move them higher on the list. For example they break a grain up into kernel and bran so that they can effectively move grain products further down the list. Often the reality is that there is no less grain, they've just manipulated how the grain appears on the list.

I investigated some premium brands about 8 years ago (those that you would pay $100 or more for a 10kg bag). I found that some, even though they listed meat products first, had around 35% percent grain. In the list you've given above, the wheat products added together may actually represent a higher percentage of the total food, there may be more wheat than corn.

Next, the list states that there is 24% raw protein. While grains can contain protein, the question remains as to whether this protein is actually biologically available to the dogs - or in other words, can the dog extract the protein from the grains? It seems that the evidence is that they can't.

Other tricks that the pet food manufacturers play are to do with increasing the palatability of the food so that the dog eats it. The chicken fat in the list may only have been included for this reason and often the finished kibble is simply sprayed with fat or tallow to improve the smell of the kibble to the dog. They also add salts to make the food morish. Overall, often feeding dogs prepackaged foods pet foods is about as nutritious as feeding them potato chips.

Tom Lonsdale in his book 'Raw Meaty Bones' states that dogs can tolerate no more than 10% grain in their diets.

I often think about the dogs that I owned before I learnt all this stuff with sadness and regret for the fact that in my ignorance I was actually slowly poisoning them, but despite that they were still awesome pets.

 

[Deleted member 8431]

Not sure how the pet food labelling laws work where you are JayMark, but here the laws about the ingredient list states that the ingredients must be listed in order of bulk with the ingredient making up most of the the bulk being listed first.

Pretty much the same here.

Some pet food manufacturers try to give a different picture about the reality of the ingredient list by breaking grains up into their components so that they can list meat products first or move them higher on the list. For example they break a grain up into kernel and bran so that they can effectively move grain products further down the list. Often the reality is that there is no less grain, they've just manipulated how the grain appears on the list.

Ha. I didn't think about it but it make absolute sense.

I investigated some premium brands about 8 years ago (those that you would pay $100 or more for a 10kg bag). I found that some, even though they listed meat products first, had around 35% percent grain. In the list you've given above, the wheat products added together may actually represent a higher percentage of the total food, there may be more wheat than corn.

That is a very probable thing.

Next, the list states that there is 24% raw protein. While grains can contain protein, the question remains as to whether this protein is actually biologically available to the dogs - or in other words, can the dog extract the protein from the grains? It seems that the evidence is that they can't.

Good point there. Dogs are carnivorous. So I hardly see how they could manage to live (mostly) on vegetable protein.

Other tricks that the pet food manufacturers play are to do with increasing the palatability of the food so that the dog eats it. The chicken fat in the list may only have been included for this reason and often the finished kibble is simply sprayed with fat or tallow to improve the smell of the kibble to the dog. They also add salts to make the food morish. Overall, often feeding dogs prepackaged foods pet foods is about as nutritious as feeding them potato chips.

That's what I think as well. Worst is that my uncle's dogs aren't even big fan of the food. They don't always finish their plates. They arent gluttonous in regards to their own food.

Tom Lonsdale in his book 'Raw Meaty Bones' states that dogs can tolerate no more than 10% grain in their diets.

I often think about the dogs that I owned before I learnt all this stuff with sadness and regret for the fact that in my ignorance I was actually slowly poisoning them, but despite that they were still awesome pets.

I hear ya. Worst here is that they aren't my dogs and my uncle/aunt don't want to year that the food they give them might be very bad (they think it's good because the vet says so).

The older dog, 8 yo Rosie (mentionned before) always try to eat our cat's feces in winter when the litter is inside. She also eats other feces (her's or other dog's) from time to time. She is 20 lbs overweight (average is 70 lbs), weakening and always out of breath. She also has 2 lumps and have had skin problems around her crotch/vulva several times.

Now about feces, I would think that she could eat it because her body requires nutrients that aren't present (or not in enough quantity) in her food. Could that be a possibility? Vet said no but I don't trust her. She dosen't even think there is something wrong with our dog Rosie and simply says she is getting old, that's all and need an operation for the lumps. What kind of a vet is that? The dog is sick dammit, she is weak, she

Now I can only think that her diet is the main factor (maybe not only one) that made her get so sick, fat and weak over time. Their lifespan (average) is of 14 years (they are Bouviers Des Flandres). So being in such bad shape after only 8 years is unusual to my eyes.

Thanks for the great info!

 

[loreta]

But, I ask, is there a good brand of pet food? Even if you pay more it seems that they are all bad. Maybe one of you know a good brand. Maybe?

 

[Jones]

But, I ask, is there a good brand of pet food? Even if you pay more it seems that they are all bad. Maybe one of you know a good brand. Maybe?

I just don't trust them at all regardless of how they are marketed. There are some brands of dried dog food that consist of air dried meat - but there is still little by way of control over the source of the meat.

I hear ya. Worst here is that they aren't my dogs and my uncle/aunt don't want to year that the food they give them might be very bad (they think it's good because the vet says so).

Its a sad thing to watch and I've been watching it now and the effects on the dogs of friends and family for nearly 20 years. :(


Tom Lonsdale is of the opinion based on his research of veterinary records including those that predate the introduction of prepackaged foods for dogs in the 40's or 50's (if I remember correctly) that dogs have the physiology to live for up to 25 years. We've effectively halved their lives by how we feed them. And the problems and diseases are caused not just by biologically inappropriate food, but also the peridontal diseases that the dogs get because of the incorrect pH and the fact their mouth doesn't get cleaned properly because they are not ripping/tearing meat or chewing bones.




There is another good book Juliette de Bairclay Levy called The Complete Herbal Handbook for Dog and Cat owners. She is of the opinion that grains irritate the dogs intestinal lining which then produces a mucus covering to protect itself. Intestinal worms then get between the intestinal lining and the mucus where they can still feed off the dog, but are protected by the mucus from worming medications. I actually witnessed a gruesome event when I was helping a friend transition her dog to a raw diet. This little dog was regularly wormed, but when her intestines started to clean out, she was pooping pure mucus live with tapeworms. It was sickening.

There is a Beagle breeder here in Aus who apparently has done a lot of research into diet and vaccination schedules over the years and apparently has her Beagles living up to 27 years of age. She and her husband founded The Master Dog Breeders Association here in Aus.

The older dog, 8 yo Rosie (mentionned before) always try to eat our cat's feces in winter when the litter is inside. She also eats other feces (her's or other dog's) from time to time. She is 20 lbs overweight (average is 70 lbs), weakening and always out of breath. She also has 2 lumps and have had skin problems around her crotch/vulva several times.

Now about feces, I would think that she could eat it because her body requires nutrients that aren't present (or not in enough quantity) in her food. Could that be a possibility? Vet said no but I don't trust her. She dosen't even think there is something wrong with our dog Rosie and simply says she is getting old, that's all and need an operation for the lumps. What kind of a vet is that? The dog is sick dammit, she is weak, she

Now I can only think that her diet is the main factor (maybe not only one) that made her get so sick, fat and weak over time. Their lifespan (average) is of 14 years (they are Bouviers Des Flandres). So being in such bad shape after only 8 years is unusual to my eyes.

Feces eating, or copropahgia, can have either nutritional or behavioural reasons behind it. Dogs are hunters and scavengers. Both adult males and females have been known to eat puppy feces to keep the den clean. A wild dog may have gotten grain from the intestinal tract its prey - pre digested via an animal that had a digestive system designed to cope with grains. I guess it seems a natural progression also eat the feces of these animals. So for your aunts/uncles dog to be eating it's own feces or those of other dogs may mean that she is attempting to gain additional nutrition. Coprophagic behaviours seem to decrease or cease when a dog is moved to a raw food diet. Although I had one dog who thought chook poo was a doggy delight from heaven and never really ceased trying to eat it.

Since dogs left to their own devices will eat things in various states of decay, as you would expect of a scavenger, I wonder if for them eating both decaying things and feces helps keep good bacteria in balance? Kind of like probiotics for us?

If a dog is otherwise in good health I don't get overly concerned about coprophagia unless its obsessive.

 

[Deleted member 8431]

Thanks for the great info Jones!

 

[loreta]

Thanks for the great info Jones!

I agree, very interesting. Now I understand one of my dogs: she loves to eat once in a while the feces of my cats. :O

Tonight I gave two big pieces of meat to my dogs. They were very happy.

 

[Gwenllian]

Thanks for the great info Jones!

I agree, very interesting. Now I understand one of my dogs: she loves to eat once in a while the feces of my cats. :O

I second/third that. Very interesting information.

And our dog also eats the feces of our cat. :) Any kind of feces I would think. Let's see if she likes raw meat better.

The homeopath vet came to visit us this afternoon (yes, home visit, really wonderful) and she really took her time asking questions, looking at our dog, really looking.
She observed all kinds of things. That her back is really bad and she has trouble getting up, when she is sitting. She uses her tail to keep her in balance (she bumps into me often). That her liver or spleen is enlarged and that her vulva is coarse (?). And that she looks sad and resigned, which is so true. While we were talking we figured something out, OSIT. She asked if our dog had had puppies. I replied that she must have, since her teats are quite large. I started pondering what happens when puppies are taken away too soon from the mother. She then informed me that the village where our dog used to live is a village notorious for bad breeding practices. And that it is highly likely that she was kept for breeding purposes. That could explain the bad back, but also her sadness and resignedness. She never understood what hit her. She was done away with, because she was getting too old and developing health problems. And only kept as a breeding machine.
The vet reinforced what the other vets had said. That it is not a tumour of the teat, but of the skin. While nursing she may have had some small wounds and some cells got decoded. I think that it could also be related to the sadness and trauma that she experienced every time her puppies were taken away. She couldn't nurse them as long as nature intended. Well, that is what I suspect.
The vet has given her ignatia amara 200K for silent sadness, but also it will help stimulate menstruation. She hasn't menstruated since two years.
She has recommended to visit an osteopath. The back problems may also have an impact on the organs, or so she said.
Two regular vets had a look at her and were only focused on the tumour. They didn't notice the fact that the liver or spleen was enlarged, that her back was not as it should be. That is what happens when vets only get 10 or 15 minutes to look at an animal and then have to move on to their next patient.

I feel sad for our dog that she has been through so much. But apparently, dogs can also overcome their traumas. Homeopathy, the vet said, is especially suitable for mental problems in animals.

I will report back and tell you if there are any changes. Thanks for reading and all your support. :)

Edit/added: my son just told me that the tumour is getting bigger. So, as from now I will eliminate all carbohydrates from her diet (I was still giving her some beans and chickpeas). Instead I have started feeding her broth with some ghee, as she remains hungry. And she has drunk it all!

 

[Gwenllian]

We had a visit from an osteopath today, who confirmed that somewhere down the spine there was a blockade near the liver and kidneys.
He did all kinds of stuff to her body and I was amazed that she tolerated it all.
I will her some calendula and when her droppings turn yellow I was advised to give her milk thistle and another herb that is good for the kidneys ('guldenroede' in Dutch, but my dictionary doesn't list it).

So, we will see how it goes. I feel relieved now that I can do something for her.
She will probably need the operation, because the skin on the tumour starts becoming very thin and it bleeds a bit.
I will keep you posted.

Added:
The osteopath told me about this one dog that was paralysed. And that he was still able to do something for him, so that the dog could move his legs more and better and feel with his skin again. That is some achievement.

 

[Palinurus]

and another herb that is good for the kidneys ('guldenroede' in Dutch, but my dictionary doesn't list it).

Try this:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guldenroede
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldenrod

Once you have found a Wikipage about something in your own language, the most left column will display all available other languages for the same page. Comes in mighty handy for all sorts of translations, especially into English.

Another way of reaching the same would be to use the Latin terms if you know them.

 

[Gwenllian]

and another herb that is good for the kidneys ('guldenroede' in Dutch, but my dictionary doesn't list it).

Try this:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guldenroede
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldenrod

Once you have found a Wikipage about something in your own language, the most left column will display all available other languages for the same page. Comes in mighty handy for all sorts of translations, especially into English.

Another way of reaching the same would be to use the Latin terms if you know them.

Thanks Palinurus!

In Dutch the writers of the page state that goldenrod also helps against infections, with wounds, cramps and even rheumatism.

 

[akilah]

This thread started almost two months ago, and the last post was about a month old. I'm coming in late - and wondering what is the current status of the enlarged nipple and the dog's overall health, or have I missed a post? The discussion has covered a gamut of topics - all very interesting in their own rights - but I'm just wondering if the biopsy aspirate was ever cultured?

 

[Gwenllian]

This thread started almost two months ago, and the last post was about a month old. I'm coming in late - and wondering what is the current status of the enlarged nipple and the dog's overall health, or have I missed a post? The discussion has covered a gamut of topics - all very interesting in their own rights - but I'm just wondering if the biopsy aspirate was ever cultured?

Thanks for the question, akilah. :)

The tumour is still there and will have to be removed. But I decided to wait for a while, since my dog has been through so much. I talked this through with our homeopathic vet.
An osteopath treated my dog twice. She had a blockade in the spine in the area of the liver and that is gone now. She seems to be suffering less from nightmares, which means she is processing her past.
For the moment I keep the tumour clean with the help of silverwater and marigold ointment which I made myself. I also give her some marigold elixer in her food and broth. The tumour seems to have stopped growing.
Marigold/calendula could help with growths, even cancer growths, or so I heard from a herbalist.

I had no biopsy done. I am waiting for her strength to return a bit and then opt for the operation.

 

[Deleted member 8431]

My uncle finally had Rosie (one of his dogs) operated for it's growing teat. Dog survived the operation. But jeez, looking at the bill made me almost mad. I mean, for heaven's sake, 150$+ for the injection alone... hundreads of dollars for the whole thing. And the vet wanted to do more but my uncle said it was enough. She is all about cash, osit. Frustrating thing. But meh, that's how it is. God grant me the serinity to accept things... ...

Anyhow, she is recovering apparently. I moved a few days ago so I won't be able to see her for a long time.

 

[Gwenllian]

My uncle finally had Rosie (one of his dogs) operated for it's growing teat. Dog survived the operation. But jeez, looking at the bill made me almost mad. I mean, for heaven's sake, 150$+ for the injection alone... hundreads of dollars for the whole thing. And the vet wanted to do more but my uncle said it was enough. She is all about cash, osit. Frustrating thing. But meh, that's how it is. God grant me the serinity to accept things... ...

Anyhow, she is recovering apparently. I moved a few days ago so I won't be able to see her for a long time.

Yes, that is what has become very apparent to me. Money, money, money, that is what it is about. Vets charged 30 euros just for checking the tumour, which takes 10 minutes at the most.
On the other hand the homeopathic vet charged 70 euros, came to my house, stayed 90 minutes or so plus one consult over the phone. Unbelievable difference! And she really LOOKED at my dog, felt what she was feeling, stroked her and so on. That vet is pretty amazing.

I am glad to hear Rosie survived the operation. Operations are hard on the body. Too bad you cannot visit her. :(