E-cigarettes: research - experiments - ideas

[broken.english]

I suppose I'll give Kai's Virgin Vapor a try, it states they are VG only liquids About Us

I tried Kai's Virgin Vapors 18mg tobacco flavor and I really liked it.

A Jay, you are among the lucky ones. Virgin Vapor are holier than the pope which is fine but there is one detail that should be known:

Quote:

• We use tobacco free nicotine. This nicotine is made in a lab rather than extracted from tobacco plants to ensure high purity.

This will definitely not work for everybody.

 

[Jo Bugman]

A Jay, you are among the lucky ones. Virgin Vapor are holier than the pope which is fine but there is one detail that should be known:

Quote:

• We use tobacco free nicotine. This nicotine is made in a lab rather than extracted from tobacco plants to ensure high purity.

This will definitely not work for everybody.

I did see that, I'll give an update once I start using it. I couldn't recall if the velvet vapors juice I was using was extracted or made in a lab.

 

[Goemon_]

This will definitely not work for everybody.

This will definitely not work for everybody.

What do you make of the following?

It looks like other people are also interested in nicotine enantiomers. Here is another article fresh from the oven:

"
Physiological properties of (R)-nicotine have differences compared with (S)-nicotine, and the subject of (S)- and (R)-nicotine ratio in smoking or vaping related items is of considerable interest. A Liquid Chromatography-Mass Spectrometry/Mass Spectrometry (LC-MS/MS) method for the analysis of (S)- and (R)-nicotine has been developed and applied to samples of nicotine from different sources, nicotine pyrolyzates, several types of tobacco, smoke from combustible cigarettes, smoke from heated tobacco products, e-liquids, and particulate matter obtained from e-cigarettes aerosol. The separation was achieved on a Chiracel OJ-3 column, 250 × 4.6 mm with 3-μm particles using a nonaqueous mobile phase. The detection was performed using atmospheric pressure chemical ionization (APCI) in positive mode. The only transition measured for the analysis of nicotine was 163.1 → 84.0. The method has been summarily validated. For the analysis, the samples of tobacco and smoke from combustible cigarettes were subject to a cleanup procedure using solid phase extraction (SPE). It was demonstrated that nicotine upon heating above 450°C for several minutes starts decomposing, and some formation of (R)-enantiomer from a sample of 99% (S)-nicotine is observed. An analogous process takes place when a 99% (R)-nicotine is heated and forms low levels of (S)-nicotine. This interconversion has the effect of slightly increasing the content of (R)-nicotine in smoke compared with the level in tobacco for combustible cigarettes and for heated tobacco products. The (S)/(R) ratio of nicotine enantiomers in e-liquids was identical with the ratio for the particulate phase of aerosols generated by e-cigarette vaping.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/chir.23421"

In other words, you can generate R-nicotine when smoking a cigarette, but you cannot generate R-nicotine when you vape the e-cig. So you must use the synthetic nicotine that already has R-nicotine in the liquid.

And what is the importance of R-nicotine? While it is true that it is much less potent than S-nicotine, it seems that it can enhance the binding of nicotine to nicotine receptors in the brain. So the R-nicotine would enhance the effect of the S-nicotine. In this article R-nicotine is (+)-nicotine and (S)-nicotine is (-)-nicotine:
"Saturation studies employing (-)- and (+)-[3H]nicotine indicate that the isomers bind to different very high and high affinity sites since the binding density for (-)-[3H]nicotine is 10 times that for (+)-[3H]nicotine. Both isomers also bind to a low affinity site (KDS = approximately 10(-5) to 10(-4) M). Competition studies employing unlabelled (-)- and (+)-nicotine reveal greater complexities. The isomers also appear to bind to a separate site which enhances binding at the (-)- and (+)-nicotine high affinity sites. (+)-Nicotine is more effective in increasing the binding of (-)-[3H]nicotine at its high affinity site than (-)-nicotine. Further, (+)-nicotine has a greater specificity for enhancing binding than (-)-nicotine in that it enhances (-)-[3H]nicotine binding at lower concentrations and inhibits binding at higher concentrations than (-)-nicotine."

 

[broken.english]

What do you make of the following?

Not much.

The paper itself says that "This interconversion has the effect of slightly increasing the content of (R)-nicotine in smoke compared with the level in tobacco for combustible cigarettes and for heated tobacco products. The (S)/(R) ratio of nicotine enantiomers in e-liquids was identical with the ratio for the particulate phase of aerosols generated by e-cigarette vaping."

If this is correct then you have slightly more (R)-nicotine in smoke in comparison with e-cigarette vapor. That's it. It may have an influence on the vaping experience but I have some doubt that it is a game changer. Namely as the vaping experience can vary with the nicotine level.

The above conclusion that..

"In other words, you can generate R-nicotine when smoking a cigarette, but you cannot generate R-nicotine when you vape the e-cig. So you must use the synthetic nicotine that already has R-nicotine in the liquid. "

..is wrong in my opinion because a natural tobacco extract has exactly the same amount and ratio of (R) and (S)-nicotine as the tobacco of cigarettes.

 

[987baz]

Ok, so heard back from the pharmacy world guy, who is an ex vape shop owner, great dude, here’s his response to my question about the Nic concentrate

Thanks for reaching out. Unfortunately come March 1, regulation changes will reduce the maximum strength of S4 nicotine liquid to 50mg/mL as the government plans to stamp out DIY mixing moving forward. This is why pharmacy would already no longer be stocking the 100 & 200mg/mL.

Our pharmacy is currently only dispensing S3 nicotine which is <20mg/mL and does not require a script (S4 still requires script).

 

[nicklebleu]

..is wrong in my opinion because a natural tobacco extract has exactly the same amount and ratio of (R) and (S)-nicotine as the tobacco of cigarettes.

I would say this is only true if the nicotine in vaping is “heated above 450 degrees for several minutes” - which would definitely not be the case, which is when the conversion from the S- to the R-enantiomer happens (and vice versa). S is the predominant enantiomer anyway, by a large margin.

This article has a good run-down of the actual composition of smoke-less tobacco and other nicotine products (the content of the R-enantiomer can vary by orders of magnitude even within the same tobacco product from different batches):



Another point is that the mix of S- and R-enantiomers in the tobacco plant might be different depending on processing.

But finally, I agree with you, that it’s probably a non-issue, but maybe for a different reason: Tobacco smoke is a lot more than just nicotine. Vaping is a different experience altogether, targeting nicotine only, while smoking has a complex mix of chemicals “up for grabs”.

I enjoy both - but the experience is certainly different.

 

[broken.english]

This article has a good run-down of the actual composition of smoke-less tobacco and other nicotine products:

View attachment 105216

Is the article identical to the attachment? The latter does not open.

 

[nicklebleu]

The attachment is a screen shot from the article - weird, opens fine in my browser … ?!?
Maybe try again, I edited the post to put the image in rather than as an attachment.

 

[Mililea]

Ok, I gave it a try as well. I started vaping in November with the "Vaporesso Luxe XR max" and ended up with these Booster Shots to which I add 10ml of VG. I add no flavour. I was surprised that I would be satisfied. For all who don´t know me I am a heavy smoker and loved smoking! And I noticed some improvements I didn´t expect.

First one, which I hoped for since Chu mentioned it, my singing voice is better and I have more air for holding notes. But the second one is more significant, because it is measurable (I use the Oura Ring). My HRV and resting heartrate are much better as you see below. (HRV left side higher and resting heartrate right side is lower).



I can´t think of anything else that I changed other than the vaping. I still smoke a cigarette from time to time, but it also doesn´t taste that good as it used to. Another thing I noticed is, that I am not that desperate that much anymore, like, I NEEED a cigarette right now! Oh, and I also notice that the stains are less on my teeth as mentioned earlier in the thread. So, all in all, the experiment is going well I think... at least for me.

 

[broken.english]

I would say this is only true if the nicotine in vaping is “heated above 450 degrees for several minutes” - which would definitely not be the case, which is when the conversion from the S- to the R-enantiomer happens (and vice versa). S is the predominant enantiomer anyway, by a large margin.

This article has a good run-down of the actual composition of smoke-less tobacco and other nicotine products (the content of the R-enantiomer can vary by orders of magnitude even within the same tobacco product from different batches):

View attachment 105217

Another point is that the mix of S- and R-enantiomers in the tobacco plant might be different depending on processing.

But finally, I agree with you, that it’s probably a non-issue, but maybe for a different reason: Tobacco smoke is a lot more than just nicotine. Vaping is a different experience altogether, targeting nicotine only, while smoking has a complex mix of chemicals “up for grabs”.

I enjoy both - but the experience is certainly different.

My disagreement was with the above conclusion that " you must use the synthetic nicotine that already has R-nicotine in the liquid. " which is wrong because R-nicotine can be found in all kinds of extracts(as your article says) and is not exclusive to synthetic nicotine.

In the case of DIY liquids with an acid/base method the nicotine will be transported as a whole into the liquid including its R-nicotine components.

Of course vaping will not increase the amount of R-nicotine.

 

[broken.english]

The attachment is a screen shot from the article - weird, opens fine in my browser … ?!?
Maybe try again, I edited the post to put the image in rather than as an attachment.

Thanks, it opens now. Yesterday it did not.

 

[Altair]

Ok, I gave it a try as well. I started vaping in November with the "Vaporesso Luxe XR max" and ended up with these Booster Shots to which I add 10ml of VG. I add no flavour. I was surprised that I would be satisfied. For all who don´t know me I am a heavy smoker and loved smoking! And I noticed some improvements I didn´t expect.

First one, which I hoped for since Chu mentioned it, my singing voice is better and I have more air for holding notes. But the second one is more significant, because it is measurable (I use the Oura Ring). My HRV and resting heartrate are much better as you see below. (HRV left side higher and resting heartrate right side is lower).

View attachment 105252View attachment 105253

I can´t think of anything else that I changed other than the vaping. I still smoke a cigarette from time to time, but it also doesn´t taste that good as it used to. Another thing I noticed is, that I am not that desperate that much anymore, like, I NEEED a cigarette right now! Oh, and I also notice that the stains are less on my teeth as mentioned earlier in the thread. So, all in all, the experiment is going well I think... at least for me.

That's very interesting. Did the total daily amount of nicotine stay the same or was it reduced as well? Because the question is also whether one can achieve the same improvement simply by reducing the daily amount of smoked cigarettes to a certain degree.

 

[Mililea]

That's very interesting. Did the total daily amount of nicotine stay the same or was it reduced as well? Because the question is also whether one can achieve the same improvement simply by reducing the daily amount of smoked cigarettes to a certain degree.

I think I would have smoked less than I vaped so I think the nicotine I got is more than with smoking .... dunno if that´s a good or bad thing. Did I understand your question right?

 

[Altair]

Did I understand your question right?

Yes, but did you actually measure it? Approx. daily amount of nicotine (in mg) when smoking and when vaping?

 

[987baz]

FWIW, I have noticed similar benefits. From what I understand, having a cigarette is roughly equivalent to 50mg, I smoked 15 a day, now I vape 15mg a roughly 2-3mls a day, I think I have a more steady level of nicotine in my system, as I don’t need a hit once an hour, I just have a vape whenever, more consistently, like with a cigarette you smoke it for say 5 to 10 minutes and then it’s done, with vaping you have it more often but less of it, if that makes sense