Economic collapse: Pay off Credit cards or no?

[Woodsman]

I wonder if converting some dollars into Rubles or something along those lines while Western currencies still have some buying power might not be a smart move. I wonder if it can be done easily?

Hi Woodsman,

[...]

Now I like to offer a comment on this money & debt subject from a slightly different angle. And it's about you. I hope you will allow me that privilege in the spirit of community.

You seem quite angry about this subject, stemming from your own difficult experience. It's a righteous anger. And in my view justified. Most of us have gotten similarly screwed. But you probably don't want to carry this around too much. And putting some distance to it may not be a bad idea. I hope I'm coming across in the right way.

Thank-you! It's a privilege. Yes, I'm open to mirrors, but thank-you for asking first.

Anger is a funny one. Yes, I do find I am playing host to some hot emotions regarding this subject. On a 1-10 scale, I'd rate my emotional reaction at about a 3. (Benchmarking my responses; I compare this to the 8 or 9 when I was a couple of years back betrayed by a friend, and it took many months for that to simmer down. I'd not experienced a prolonged anger like that, I think, ever before.)

I was somewhat surprised to find myself reacting here. I thought I'd reduced my understanding of the money mechanics of the world to a more intellectual concept, which yes, makes me feel frustration, but.., from a sort of outer shell consideration for human-kind and not my deep core. In this instance I was flashed with, "What? How dare one propose that I am dealing unfairly with the bank! That they deserve any slack and I bear any fault?!"

It reminded me of some of the futile arguments I've had in the recent past with hopelessly fortified conservative types, not regarding money, but vaccinations and babies I know. There was much more at stake, and I evidently associate the same authoritarian thinking patterns to both subjects. I lost one of those arguments and a baby was drugged, and that sits with me still. The dark side won a critical battle I'd been positioned in as a defender, and where I'd not been good enough.

This settled down here as I thought through it; anybody posting here has already made the choice to be open to change and soul growth. This isn't the wilds of Facebook. These are brave souls who have jumped into the SOTT forums, and that deserves respect when it is earnestly intended. -It's also easier because the logic in this case happens to line up, (I think) in favor of what my ego would like to hear, (not always a good thing for learning ego management, but there it is), and I had to remind myself while responding not to view these shared thoughts as attacks, and to communicate with patience from a place which takes into account other people's learning curves. Not sure how well I managed. Looking back, I see a bit of vitriol around the edges.

Anger has been on my mind on and off over the years. "How much makes for a useful reality gauge and a healthy energy burst for solving things, and at what point does it slip into toxicity and distortion of reality perception?"

Anyway, those are my self notes for the moment. They seem accurate-ish from my side of the mirror, but perhaps there is something I am not seeing.

 

[Deleted member 9511]

You seem to understand and yet not understand. I think you might benefit from revisiting the last few posts, because you appear to be stuck in some of the programming surrounding this subject.

Here's my frame of mind:

I do not owe anything to the banks. Everything they take is theft through coercion. There was no honest exchange. There wasn't even an exchange. They did not create, earn, work for, or give me anything. Money is a vacuum. A net negative.

Or rather there IS an exchange; they are bleeding us.

The banks have been free-lunching since the dawn of civilization and I absolutely do not honor my 'agreement' with them, and I am absolutely NOT willing to go to jail for them in lieu of repayment, (as you seem to have suggested in your follow-up post as the correct approach).

You're saying, (or I should say, your programming is saying), essentially, that the slaves owe their masters for the food on their plates and thus should welcome whipping as the just reward should they decide to say, "No."

If we are talking Karma, then I submit that the banking elite are deep, deep in the red for the war and suffering and control inflicted upon our world as a result of their machinations, for all the creative energy they have sucked down their black hole and prevented the expression of.

Not sure how you could know what I understand or not from a few posts. I know the nature of fractional reserve banking, how it got started, and who benefits. I did not know from the day I was born. I had to learn it, and not until after I had a mortgage. By living within my means and having the good fortune to have a marketable skill, that mortgage is paid. Even so, if I fail to pay real-estate taxes my fully-paid-for property can be taken from me. It's worse than a bad system, and it does result in financial slavery. Now that I have learned about that system, I am much more cautious about how I interact with it. I am not completely GOTS (www.jsmineset.com), but pretty close. I still have bank accounts and credit cards because they are all but required to engage in commerce. I don't have to like it, but so be it. There are many things about our society and the world that I would prefer were different.

Regarding the slave analogy, in the case of slaves taken against their will by force, which is not the case of people going into debt, you have a point. If the slaves in the analogy were given an offer, and failed to do their homework or were naive or whatever, then they were victims of their own ignorance, maybe not equal responsible as those who misled them, but there is personal accountability involved. As the Cs say, knowledge protects. Going back to slave taken by force, karma is tough to sort out. I don't know why such things happen, but the Cs say everything is perfectly balanced, which is the same as saying karma always collects it's debts. Past life karma is not out of the question.

As far as you not being willing to go to jail for you debts, I didn't suggest that anyone should. Rather, I offered an analogy of civil disobedience where their sincerity is backed up by their willingness to go to jail. However, one doesn't have to be willing to go to jail in order to end up there anyway. I suggest it's better to prepare mentally and emotionally that such a possibility exists. It is also possible, though I see it as unlikely, that there will be total debt-forgiveness, world-wide, and nobody will suffer anymore as a result of the predatory system that controls global finance and has for a long time. I would like to see the financiers go to jail, but they are also the ones who own the jails and have the guns.

What I am suggesting is that the physical symptoms of our karmic mistakes are no more what we should be trying to heal than someone with a brain tumor should only be worried about their headache. After all, aren't we supposed to be on-course to graduate from physical 3D to something other than physical 4D? Paying back the money or not is not the entire issue as I see it. If one got into debt due to their ignorance of the system and were therefore coerced into that debt, then the creditor certainly has some karmic responsibility, but so does the debtor. The key is to learn the lesson, which is that ignorance is dangerous and knowledge protects. There are traps out there. If someone is in debt that they cannot repay, that is a trap, and it sucks, but simply not paying it is maybe not the way out of the trap, like taking aspirin is not the way to beat a brain tumor. There are rules (and I don't mean laws of men) to this realm, and karmic lessons apply, and in this realm physical force is part of the game. That is what I am suggesting, and I understand that very well.

Of course, freewill being what it is, anyone is free not to repay debts, and I respect that those same folks are unwilling to go to jail or suffer otherwise as a result of being coerced into a bad deal. It would be nice if that were a choice. I'm not sure that's the case.

 

[Deleted member 9511]

There are rules (and I don't mean laws of men) to this realm, and karmic lessons apply, and in this realm physical force is part of the game. That is what I am suggesting, and I understand that very well.\

I'd like to add a caveat to that statement. While I may understand better than the average-joe, which is doing well for starters, I obviously don't fully understand it, or certainly not well-enough.

And regarding rules of 3D living, I have another example.

I used to eat processed food. I don't anymore, because I have since learned the dangers of doing so, and I avoid toxic products of all kinds now that I have learned of the harms they cause. That doesn't mean as soon as I made the conscious choice to avoid poor-quality food and commercial toxins that I was instantly unaffected by years of bad dietary habits. That would be falling into the trap of wishful thinking, which I think the Cs have said is what got us here in the first place. Rather, I have to continue to follow the rules of 3D living, and the consequences of previous actions will take time to sort out. It may be that the damage is already done, baked in the cake. Just because I don't like that I didn't know better before doesn't mean I don't have to live with the consequences of my prior, and even continuing, ignorance.

As far as debt is concerned, it one is in debt, it won't just go away because we don't like it. That's magical thinking. We have to take concrete steps to get out of the trap. That is for each to decide, but doing nothing has consequences as well.

 

[sitting]

Thank-you! It's a privilege. Yes, I'm open to mirrors, but thank-you for asking first.

I appreciate your thoughtful reply. This and your other posts regarding debt -- gave me much food for thought.
As did the other contributors on this thread. I intend to reread the entire thread in a few day hence. My initial reaction was lots and lots of good stuff here. And it just captivated me.

Thank you.

 

[Woodsman]

Not sure how you could know what I understand or not from a few posts. I know the nature of fractional reserve banking, how it got started, and who benefits. I did not know from the day I was born. I had to learn it, and not until after I had a mortgage. By living within my means and having the good fortune to have a marketable skill, that mortgage is paid. Even so, if I fail to pay real-estate taxes my fully-paid-for property can be taken from me. It's worse than a bad system, and it does result in financial slavery. Now that I have learned about that system, I am much more cautious about how I interact with it. I am not completely GOTS (www.jsmineset.com), but pretty close. I still have bank accounts and credit cards because they are all but required to engage in commerce. I don't have to like it, but so be it. There are many things about our society and the world that I would prefer were different.

Please see below...

Regarding the slave analogy, in the case of slaves taken against their will by force, which is not the case of people going into debt, you have a point. If the slaves in the analogy were given an offer, and failed to do their homework or were naive or whatever, then they were victims of their own ignorance, maybe not equal responsible as those who misled them, but there is personal accountability involved. As the Cs say, knowledge protects. Going back to slave taken by force, karma is tough to sort out. I don't know why such things happen, but the Cs say everything is perfectly balanced, which is the same as saying karma always collects it's debts. Past life karma is not out of the question.

We live in a system which is so entirely defined and suppressed by debt mechanics that it becomes hard to see it. It's like the water being invisible to fish analogy. In this case, the very water is deliberately made toxic and suppressant.

I live in an apartment, and I pay a monthly rent. This accounts for a huge portion of my income. The landlord is a sweet gentleman; he owns several properties and manages them very well, and he keeps the rents in his properties low compared to other buildings held by other landlords. However, he remains in a position whereby he must service a number of mortgages, and a large portion of the income he receives by way of rent payments goes to service debt and interest. As a result, a significant portion of the work I do is funneled into oblivion. I'm, by proxy, in a near permanent state of debt.

The only choice I made was to live somewhere.

-And I did my research, was smart about it, went in with my eyes open, but in many ways the choice was a non-choice. My options were pre-defined by the banking system. This is coercion.

This same dynamic holds for virtually *every* product and service in our world when you break down the financing and money flows.

This is the aspect I think you may be failing to take into account.

I would estimate that four fifths of the work people do every day, when you boil it all down, goes to service debt. When researching previous societies through history where central banking was outlawed, we see reports of people living in a world where they only needed to work 14 weeks per year in order to secure an excellent quality of life, and all their remaining work could be used to better their world. Cathedrals, were reportedly built by people in the 15th century donating their time and energy.

When we are using most of our energy to feed the banking elite, the inescapable truth is that we are owned. We are slaves, and we were born into it.

I live in a university town, and I have seen literally thousands of students over the years who have been conned by lies about how success in our culture is attained, who will graduate with unserviceable student debts. They caught these kids before their awareness and knowledge and lie-detection was sufficient to avoid just that one debt trap.

Some of us find ourselves in more direct and easy-to-see relationships with parasitic banking, and the traps and life paths which took us there may have been avoided with sufficient tactical knowledge and action, (at the expense of others who must carry our success as debt), but to suggest that this is realistic or even possible for most of the population, or that failing to avoid these traps should obligate people through morality or karma to remain in abusive relationships with their owners indicates a lack of understanding.

 

[Neil]

I'd like to add one last comment about karma since it seems to keep coming up. The material that is referenced on this forum seems to speak repeatedly of humanity being put here for a specific purpose for a certain amount of time in order to evolve into a proper species. I think the expectation is that the adamics/fully souled individuals/elect, whatever you want to call them, are supposed to use their intelligence to create a society that generates the higher impressions that nurture its citizens and maximizes the learning that takes place. For various reasons, this has never happened. Instead we have a society that is governed by the law of the jungle and learning is only possible for the extremely selfish, extremely strong willed, or those who manage to avoid the worst of the machinations more or less by accident. Everyone else gets more or less numbed into nothingness by being continuously beaten over the head with a stick by the various institutions that run the planet. The symptoms of this are things such as the sexual commoditization of humanity, the predatory banking system, entropic monotheistic religions that specialize in genital mutilation and molestation, and corporate pollution of air, water, land, and even DNA just to name a few. Since we can't seem to deal with this incredibly unbalanced karma in a conscious manner, it will be taken care of in a mechanical way. I think it was interesting that a few years back the Cassiopaeans said 5D was watching events closely because they were concerned about the future viability of 3D Earth as a school because things had gotten that unbalanced. Laura's research seems to suggest that extinction events occur for civilizations that can't face their evils and rectify the situation in an intelligent manner. Then the karma is balanced.

 

[Phill4]

I do not think paying off the debt we have in the linear way is the best way "to pay the debt".

What I mean is that maybe it is a bit not essential, to worry about paying a debt , when the tsunami is inches away so to speak. I think there are priorities in terms of everyone's individual situation.

And also, that paying off a debt doesn't have to necessarily be of a linear dynamic, paying off such debt could be paid off by investing in useful things for the survival of others and oneself in times of chaos.

So I think the Important concept that I wanna share/remind is the concept STRATEGY.
If paying all your debts now has strategic sense in your plans for a potential "fall", by all means, but I don't think that is the case for most people.



Just like certain lessons don't always mirror the exact event that caused the debt in the first place.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for some people to pay all their debts in 3 months.


What I think is really important is an evaluation of how "the storm" will feel where you are , and how things will deteriorate in your individual environment, what degree, what forms will it take, what people will do and places you can escape to, etc.....

 

[United Gnosis]

We live in a system which is so entirely defined and suppressed by debt mechanics that it becomes hard to see it. It's like the water being invisible to fish analogy. In this case, the very water is deliberately made toxic and suppressant.

Pretty much agree with all of your post, but would take it even one level deeper. Consider that it becomes hard to see the suppression not only because we live in it, but because we're literally born into it.

The only choice I made was to live somewhere.

Not even, that's the point. We were each born in a specific location on the globe, upon which some distant authority imposes the hegemony of force. The dominator aggressively foists legal identities onto each newly born human being, which dictates to which master it belongs, and which social contract it has been "volunteered" to. (Although some people reflexively or willfully make demonstrations of tacit approval by voting).

i've never signed the social contract that controls this geographical part of the globe (canada). The terms do not merit any approval. Nor have i been consulted to inquire about how to rouse my consent to participate. Of course it would not be expected, as this is not a legitimate social contract.

As the forceful oppressor instates a geographically bound monopoly on the use of force, an ecology of parallel social contracts is impossible. Freedom of association is curtailed by assigning citizenship, which brings many other ills, be it a sense of national identity, consensus reality perception management, etc... At the same time, a geopolitical entity defines itself, growing in potency of violence projection.

Thus consider the individual who seeks to reclaim his sovereignty. "No problem," you'd think, "this is Canada. There's unused land everywhere."

Nope. The Crown, supreme bully of these lands, has defined them as its own. Thus the sovereign individual, being interfaced with as a subjugated legal entity, can't just walk over into unclaimed territory and build a hut. He needs to buy it.

The absurdity lies in being requested to interact, by feeding energy into the contract, through means specific to it, while solely intending to check oneself out of the auto sign-up lane of that to which one never adhered.

No one can potentially keep face while blaming the individual for taking a loan with full intent to default over it, whenever that would provide most benefits. After all, this is the exact intention of the powers that rule over us, as they have fully seized control of the legal and administrative functions of society, hijacking the living economy by imposition of currency by fiat, and fully exploit every instance at every level to maximize their gains by constantly changing the rules of the game to their advantage, and using violence when that doesn't work.

 

[Silveryblue]

Pay what you can, but don't forget the other necessities. Spare food & water is a necessary. Preserve your own food when it's cheap.
Negotiate your credit card debt if you can with the bank. Offer to pay X cents on the dollar to cancel it. Or find a transfer balance card & try to pay as much as you can until the offer runs out, then move the balance again.

Having overdue debt could take you out of the game early. No contest with bank records. If the lights go out you won't have the ability to pay anyway

Don't stiff your local businessmen or other small locals. If you do that you are killing their opportunity to survive as well.
Much luck :)

 

[kalibex]

We live in a system which is so entirely defined and suppressed by debt mechanics that it becomes hard to see it. It's like the water being invisible to fish analogy. In this case, the very water is deliberately made toxic and suppressant.

Hmm; several of you seem to be implying that the memetic tangle of "Must pay off my debt within the system as designed" impulses are absolutely an integral part of the 'trap'.

Still wondering if that emphasis on how 'fixed' the whole game is isn't skewing towards a 'victim' stance, though.

Just to clarify - are you implying that people bear no responsibility (in the traditional 'pay it all off as promised' way) at all for the various debts they have accrued in a 'rigged' system? Want to make sure I'm reading you correctly.

For me, it's certainly a 'lesson learned' in that yes, I see 'what happened' and to some extent, now, 'why'....but I personally am not 'machine-cleaned' enough yet to say with complete assurance that it 'won't happen again' (especially in the short term future).


(Actually, I'm just feeling sorry for myself, because any way I look at it, the simple, mechanical consumerism of my past has to be over now. Nervous now as it seems it's going to be 'white-knuckle' time....)

 

[United Gnosis]

Just to clarify - are you implying that people bear no responsibility (in the traditional 'pay it all off as promised' way) at all for the various debts they have accrued in a 'rigged' system? Want to make sure I'm reading you correctly.

No, not at all. Integrity is the prime directive; the responsability lies on the debtor to determine what is the most legitimate and STO decision according to context. However, i think one must admit a difference of quality between, for instance, a 30k loan to start a business, negotiated in good faith with a community bank, vs. a 300k mortgage necessary to buy a home in the willfully inflated housing market of the mid-2000s, only for the right to obtain a house whose actual value might be closer to 100k.

The number of families who fell underwater from that dynamic rose in the millions after the crash, in the US alone.

 

[sitting]

No, not at all. Integrity is the prime directive; the responsability lies on the debtor to determine what is the most legitimate and STO decision according to context.

Very well put!

Learning to pay one's monetary debts is probably not one of those foundational lessons in our life.
Learning integrity IS.

I think true karmic lessons are simple, and the debt experience simply another way to get us there. Debt therefore is kinda like illnesses, tragedy, even wealth and fame. The experience itself has a greater purpose.

I believe karmic lessons revolve around our emotions. Love, hate, greed, anger, compassion and the like.
When viewed in that context, the variations and outcomes of the debt experience are endless. And some debts justified--while others not so much.

That said, I also greatly sympathize with those under unbearable burdens. Especially kids saddled with huge amounts of student loans, facing job prospects that pay only a fraction of that annually. It's very sad to see.

 

[kalibex]

No, not at all. Integrity is the prime directive; the responsability lies on the debtor to determine what is the most legitimate and STO decision according to context.

Ok; thanks for the clarification. You'all were just (rightly) drecrying the riggedness of the system.

 

[Sol Logos]

There was some talk on this thread about buying rubles. On that's here's some interesting articles:

For one of the toughest jobs in financial markets, try predicting the ruble.

As Russia’s currency went from the world’s worst performer to the best in the first three months of this year, it caught out even the most accurate forecasters. Oil’s drop to near a six-year low and cuts in interest rates, previous indicators of a weakening ruble, were swept aside as the cease-fire in Ukraine became the bigger determinant.

“None of my expectations regarding the ruble came true,” Evgeny Shilenkov, the head of trading at Veles Capital LLC in Moscow, said by phone on Thursday. Shilenkov had forecast the ruble would weaken as much as 3.6 percent in the quarter. “This is our new reality -- there are too many different factors affecting the ruble, there are too many elements in the ruble matrix. The ruble is completely unpredictable.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-05/ruble-whipsaws-top-forecasters-as-worst-currency-becomes-best

Rogue investors who ignored the negative hype about Russia, are smiling from ear to ear after the ruble gained about 6 percent this week.

The ruble surged 6 percent this past week, opening Monday at 56.55 and closing at 53.5 on the Moscow Exchange on Friday. In the last month alone, the ruble has appreciated by more than 20 percent.

http://rt.com/business/248693-russia-ruble-growth-dollar/

Perhaps these where featured on Sott already. In case not, thought I'd add here. If I had some spare resources, I reckon I'd buy rubles :)

 

[SeekinTruth]

There certainly is way too many factors (besides outright manipulations on international markets of all sorts) to predict or take risks, but the Ruble has shown quite a resilience to all-out attacks from the cabal's speculators and others, and the collapse in oil prices. The other thing is that Russia under Putin's leadership has diversified their economy away from natural resources mining/raw materials exports much more than portrayed in the western propaganda (although they still have a ways to go). So oil prices should have a decreasing weight on the exchange rates of the Ruble, that is, IF these things actually reflected anything based in reality.