Economic collapse: Pay off Credit cards or no?

[MusicMan]

I've been carrying around a pile of debt for some years now, and I've been slowly chipping away at it. In the last year I've picked up several decent bits of work. By scrimping and living cheaply, I've managed to knock my debt down by half. This is good!

I'm working now on another big contract job, and hope to be paid soon. I was planning to throw the proceeds from that into the debt hole, which would cut down my personal debt by more than two-thirds again, bringing me much closer to the finish line. That would be great!

Except...

The question I have is this: If we're seriously looking at an economic collapse in the next few months, and I have this big pile of money coming in just prior... I can't help but wonder if I might be foolish to feed it to the Beast when we have this fairly unique heads-up that things are going to likely fall apart in the next few months.

Is there any value in paying off personal bank debts? Does it make more sense to invest in other things?

What do banks do in times like these with debt holders?

What does hyper-inflation imply for personal debt holders?

I thought I'd put the question out to the SOTT forum. I can't imagine I'm the only one with personal debts these days.

So... What do people think?

My thoughts on this are that if the Banks do decide that they are going to go down, they will want to be doing it in such a way that there will not be a run on the banks, where everyone wants to get their money out at the same time.
Banks don't work like that. OF course they want to keep your money.

What they will do, is close the bank on a Friday afternoon, then announce that: there is a crash / ATM's will go down / they are debasing the currency / they are going to change to a new currency (in other words the money you have stashed is now useless) / or just go out of business. On Monday morning if they open up, the New World will be up and running.
Your money will have vapourised.
Credit Unions are not immune, they often crash before the banks do.

I think Forum members will need a means of identifying each other so that they will be able to do business with a trusted friend. Maybe a lapel pin/pendant with the SOTT symbol or the FOTCM symbol.

 

[Phill4]

Well I think that in strategy, we should not make a sudden move towards paying our debts.

In my case, I do have some debt, and had calculated that at my current rate, I will finish paying everything off in an average of 1 year and a half.

However, always expect the unexpected, because of that reason, my take on it is to make prudent decisions, say, take one day at a time, and make small payments so you have your debt covered and your living and savings a priority.

Plan a move depending on the location.


I think making big payments is not the right move as the sensitive factor is time, because in the scenario that say I pay everything off in on shot, the little time we have to prepare is not going to be enough to recharge. Plus in case of a economic collapse debt and money will no longer have any value.


I like to think of it like living from the earth, or more so, like an animal so to say, in which case money is no longer a factor... ..

 

[sitting]

I think it depends on how bad things will get. It may get quite bad in some places (especially in big cities), while being much better elsewhere.

The future is open, and for the less than the worst case scenarios gold and silver are a good way to store your savings, in my opinion.

Thank you for your comment.

The hardest thing to figure out, is what exactly is a worst case scenario ? And how likely is it.
The movie seemed extreme. But then it could also be realistic ... given enough time for events to develop.

Gold & silver has value if it can be traded. And zero value if it can't. You need a measure of civility for trading to take place. And that could be a big assumption.

That said, my own experience showed that gold & silver works. My family was caught in China after the Communist revolution, and we managed to get out in 1951 -- to Hong Kong. I was too young to remember the exact circumstances, but it's likely some gold exchange was involved.

 

[Sol Logos]

I have been worrying about this question as well. I have almost $10k in credit card debt that I have been struggling with for years. I have managed to pay it down slowly. I can't see the PTB coming after small fry like me for that amount of debt, especially CC debt. Heck, the US is how many trillions in debt and they are going to come after me for 10k?

I recently took a disbursement on a small pension, so I have enough cash to pay all my debt tomorrow if I wanted to. But I am buying stuff I think I will need to survive a catastrophic collapse instead. I may pay a portion of my debt, but I just don't think it would be wise to pay the debt off under the current circumstances. Credit card debt is usury, and just one more part of a corrupt system that just needs to go away.

This site has been mentioned on the Cass forum before I believe : getoutofdebtfree.org

It is a site that guides people through communicating with lenders of all types, with the goal of eliminating or drastically reducing debt. There's a forum as well, I signed up not long ago. There are some form letters that have worked for people that can be purchased for a small fee. I haven't got that far yet but I would be more inclined to fight for elimination or reduction of my debt rather than pay off the total amount.

I just can't see them only going after people in debt. They will be coming for everyone, crushing souls, or trying to - my 2 cents.

There's probably some handy info on that get out of debt site but likely its infiltrated and filled with disinformation too. It would be hard I reckon to determine which is which. In terms of credit card debt, as well as stuff like government penalties is they get sold as was said earlier. They get sold to debt collecting agencies for amounts like 10℅.

There is a basic issue with this. Say you agreed to pay me $100 at a certain time and place. But you didnt come. I then go and tell another friend, Bob that I have a good deal for him. If he gives me $10, I'll not seek any money from you. Instead he can harass you, and if you give in he can pocket $90. I tell Bob that if he agrees, its his risk, that I can't guarantee you'll fall for it.

Was there ever an agreement between you and Bob on this matter?

So wouldn't you just say to Bob, sorry Bob it sounds like you're telling me that I agreed to pay you $100, I'm happy to pay you but could you show me the terms of our agreement first?

Bob has no terms, so loses on his gamble.

A real example was a bogus $3.5k penalty that my wife got hit with for not declaring her earnings to the tax office of 5 years. The collecting agency sent a letter of demand.

I helped write pretty much as above, that she would be more than happy to pay but needs to see the terms she agreed on. They kept sending letters and calling, she wrote back to say if they can't provide the terms she agreed on, that it is implied they have made an error, and so she suggests this be settled with the tax office and closed. Besides we know its already actually settled and closed as the tax office sold the debt. Also she wrote something like any further pursuit of this matter will be deemed as harassment. After a couple of letters more threatening legal action, and them being reminded of their harassment, they quit. The key is that she never refused to pay, never agreed to the tax office's terms as well and so she didn't dishonour any agreement.

 

[Deleted member 9511]

There are numerous "strategies" for dealing with debt, as discussed thoroughly in this thread. For me, all of those are coming from STS thinking:

"How can I survive some impending disaster or collapse given that I have debt. If I pay the debt, I will be broke and not able to prepare for the disaster, but nobody will come after me. I don't pay the debt, it will be better, such as in a hyper-inflationary scenario where tomorrow's cheap dollars pay off today's debts. However, still indebted, I may suffer the wrath of my creditors."

Lots of other, similar postings, and I understand all the hand-wringing that goes on when managing debts and assets and trying to plan for an uncertain future. I've done many of the things recommended in those posts, or at least contemplated them seriously.

This post is different.

My personal approach is that the debt represents an energy.

That energy debt I created from my own actions (in my early adulthood) and choices, I gave nothing for the debt. I mean I did not use the money wisely (student loan which I dropped out of my course and drank too much alcohol and pissed my life away for five years). So to me it is important to pay it off. Over the past five years I have nearly fully paid off my debt. I feel liberated by having taken control of my situation and freed my self from its shadow.

If the debt was created in order to give something to the lives of people through a business or a service then energetically maybe there is no debt.

Just a different angle.

That is, by far, the most STO perspective I see in this thread, and I endorse it wholly. Not only that, I was waiting to read the whole thread before posting something similar myself. It took three full-pages of posts before getting to this one. I understand. There is a lot of anxiety around this issue, and the fear of some impending economic collapse multiplies it...by a billion. Nevertheless, debt has karmic implications.

With that in mind, going into debt or failing to pay off debt for selfish needs, such as wanting to ensure the continuation of this physical human form in which this individual consciousness is currently embedded, misses the point of transition. "Whether it is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or, by opposing, end them?" In other words, shall one suffer poverty with integrity and the chance to transition to 4D STO, or possibly fall into an STS-trap by focusing on self-preservation. Give to all who ask, right? Well, aren't creditors asking to be repaid? Doesn't legal debt always come with a promise by the debtor to repay? So, learn the lessons and pay off the karma. What's so hard about that?

Well, it just so happens that it's really hard. Not having monetary debt myself, I am in no position to judge how one might go about repaying theirs. But we all have debts of some kind. Mine happen not to be financial at the moment. My anxiety is placed elsewhere, and it is calling me to see where I am binding myself to this realm. I most definitely want to pay my way out of this mess, and no doubt, regardless of the nature of the debt.... It. Is. Really. Really. Hard. Work.

Maybe I've learned the lessons of money and some haven't. I'll bet there are plenty of lessons I've not learned that are distant memories for others here. But, it's all the same lesson. STO or STS? That, to me, is the guiding factor in any decision.

 

[Neil]

Give to all who ask, right? Well, aren't creditors asking to be repaid? Doesn't legal debt always come with a promise by the debtor to repay? So, learn the lessons and pay off the karma. What's so hard about that?

I see where you're coming from, but I think this is a little naive considering how the banking system actually functions. Most western financial institutions are required to keep 10% reserves relative to the amount of outstanding loans the bank has made. The rest of that money is created out of thin air and is simply an abstraction in the banker's mind that was never backed by anything tangible in the first place. In addition, according to various economic whistleblowers that have come forward since 2008, the actual reserve ratio at the corporate megabanks is closer to 1%. So, if you go to JP Morgan and get a loan for $10K, the actual amount of his own money, or energy, he has lent to you is worth about $100. The rest is simply counterfeited and since you don't have the ability to counterfeit money yourself without getting arrested, you must repay the remaining debt with your own labor and real material wealth. On top of that, depending on how timely you make your payments and the terms of the loan, the amount you actually end up paying can easily double. So Mr. Morgan actually only gave you $100, and in exchange for his "services," he steals $19900 from you! You expand this to an entire economy and it's easy to see how everybody ends up owing the bank and why the bankers have these huge posh offices and net worth in the billions. They really can't lose. The bankers steal 99% of everyone's energy and recycle the remaining 1% to the plebs to give the illusion of an equitable system. Yes, there are small town community bankers who aren't as bad and may not be preoccupied with owning everyone and everything, but the fact of the matter is everyone who is in the banking business is playing the same game with a greater or lesser degree of ruthlessness. So while your loan may buy $10000 of goods and services, the money to pay for it in fact never existed, and that is why currencies constantly become worth less and less because the money you paid is backed by nothing. Eventually things get so bad that no one believes the money is worth anything (because it isn't) and the economy collapses. So my contention is, if you've paid back 10% of what you owe, you've already given back in kind what was given to you, and that's probably being generous considering how things are today. So 90%+ of the money bankers supposedly lend you is fake money that you must pay back with real things so the bankers can give themselves a free ride on your sweat and blood. Meanwhile, the money that you paid to the merchant is being steadily devalued because the funny money you just paid him with dilutes the value produced by real working people. Nothing STO about that.

As far as give all to those who ask, it reminds me of something Ra said about the loss of polarity because of the war between 4D STS and 4D STO. It was something like "4D STO, is unable to give what is being asked for, that being enslavement, because in so doing they may be pure, but it would be of no consequence. 4D STS is also unable to give what it is offering, that being manipulation, so that both are worn down and suffer a loss of energy." In 3D creditors don't ask, they manipulate, and "giving all" to them is tantamount to accepting enslavement and being consumed, at least temporarily.

Which brings me to promises to pay and what you say about learning lessons. In signing a loan document, you are accepting a deal with The Beast and by extension become its slave. You may say the simplest solution to this is to avoid going into debt, but the system is intentionally designed so that you are forced to work for The Beast. In the US, college is terribly overpriced for what you get, in most cases, the only way an aspiring teenager can go is to make a deal with The Beast. Our financialized economy has made housing unaffordable for most, but The Beast has it covered, just sign your life away. Need a new (to you) car that's reliable and can get you to work? Oh don't have 10K? The Beast can take care of that. Don't have the 3K for a new A/C because your pay has been cut due to your company having to compete with third world slave labor? The Beast can help with that too. I'm not even going to go into when bankers intentionally crash the economy so they can accumulate more assets for pennies on the dollar. I guess, in a certain sense, all of us who have agreements with The Beast deserve what we get to a degree, the lesson must be learned, but that doesn't necessarily mean accepting perpetual serfdom to the system over fraudulent contracts. In order to avoid The Beast, you can't go to college, or you better live close to one that will give you a lot of financial aid, you must somehow save enough money in a rigged system to buy the things you need, often the very things required to participate in that system, and you better pray nothing goes majorly wrong in your life. And you need to have an understanding of how the banking system really works from a young age (like 16) and be bound and determined to stay out of it. Tall order. My point is I feel no pangs of conscience from trying to find some sort of "trick" to get rid of my debt or simply walking away from it when it becomes in my best interest. If someone tries to use some moral argument and says "you borrowed this money," I can really just shrug at what a farce the whole thing is. As I said earlier, ideally debts could be paid off and you don't have to worry about it and you can feel happy that you beat the system. When the system intentionally makes that difficult just so it can own you, I don't see why anyone should honor their obligations because that is most definitely what they agreed to.

I can only see one blanket scenario where paying off the entire balance should be obligatory, and that's if you purchase something from someone directly and they issue a loan that is backed by tangible assets and not created out of thin air at a bank. For example, you go to a dealer and buy a car. You can't pay for it but work out a payment plan. The dealer gives you an in-house loan which is basically an advance on the car because he does not have the power to create money. and lets you drive it as long as you adhere to the terms of the loan. In this way, the dealer has invested the value of the car in you and you are obliged to give back what was given. This is in contrast to how its typically done, where a bank lends money it doesn't have to the dealer, steals the car, and then rents it to you until you pay the bank what should've gone to the dealer. This system can appear to work for quite awhile as long as there is constant exponential growth in the economy and the banks are well-regulated. Eventually, the fractional reserve loans become real money through the increased productivity of the borrowers and it is as if there was a direct sale. But the unreality of perpetual economic growth combined with the inability of any government to control an organization that can buy up real goods with virtually no expenditure of energy at all will cause all fractional reserve systems to crash because they never ever have nearly enough money to honor their obligations yet they always expect you to honor yours. Imagine if you could open a 0 reserve bank and have just enough money flowing through it to maintain the illusion of solvency. In theory, you could write an infinite number of loans and own the entire world with no more effort than it would take to gather the signatures. Then, since you control all of the money, you can suddenly take it all away by crashing the system and confiscating any collateral that was available to take. I think this the ultimate fantasy of corporate banks and their ever lower reserve ratios.

I agree with what you said about gottathink but I think he is kind of a special case. In his case, we're talking about a karmic debt that happened to have a monetary value because he took the money and "wasted his life." So, in order to atone for that, he was very diligent to repay the loan. But if you think about his post carefully, he was really repaying his debt to himself, not some banker. It had personal significance to him.

In conclusion, I do not feel the banking system has any moral authority to force me to repay my debts. Quite the opposite in fact. I understand buying things on credit makes me somewhat complicit in the free money theft scam perpetrated by the bankers and there will be a price to pay for that. I do not believe that price is repaying the bankers in full at all costs. This has been a rather long post on the banking system, but I believe it is the chief form of enslavement on the planet today. They are parasites and we don't need them. We should get back to making deals directly with each other that are trading things we actually have, instead of having opaque middlemen skimming off of every transaction.

 

[Plume]

It is perhaps not the good topic for this because you speak about credit card but I wonder what about mortgage if the banks collapse ?

When you make a credit for a house, amounts are so important it is impossible to decide now to pay off its debt or not.

If there is no more money, what the banks will do with our house ?

If they decide to get the house (like in the subprime in 2008) to recover the debt, it will be impossible for them to sell because there will be no buyer.
So would they let us home ?

Do you have any idea on that ?

 

[Woodsman]

There are numerous "strategies" for dealing with debt, as discussed thoroughly in this thread. For me, all of those are coming from STS thinking:

"How can I survive some impending disaster or collapse given that I have debt. If I pay the debt, I will be broke and not able to prepare for the disaster, but nobody will come after me. I don't pay the debt, it will be better, such as in a hyper-inflationary scenario where tomorrow's cheap dollars pay off today's debts. However, still indebted, I may suffer the wrath of my creditors."

Lots of other, similar postings, and I understand all the hand-wringing that goes on when managing debts and assets and trying to plan for an uncertain future. I've done many of the things recommended in those posts, or at least contemplated them seriously.

This post is different.

My personal approach is that the debt represents an energy.

That energy debt I created from my own actions (in my early adulthood) and choices, I gave nothing for the debt. I mean I did not use the money wisely (student loan which I dropped out of my course and drank too much alcohol and pissed my life away for five years). So to me it is important to pay it off. Over the past five years I have nearly fully paid off my debt. I feel liberated by having taken control of my situation and freed my self from its shadow.

If the debt was created in order to give something to the lives of people through a business or a service then energetically maybe there is no debt.

Just a different angle.

That is, by far, the most STO perspective I see in this thread, and I endorse it wholly. Not only that, I was waiting to read the whole thread before posting something similar myself. It took three full-pages of posts before getting to this one. I understand. There is a lot of anxiety around this issue, and the fear of some impending economic collapse multiplies it...by a billion. Nevertheless, debt has karmic implications.

With that in mind, going into debt or failing to pay off debt for selfish needs, such as wanting to ensure the continuation of this physical human form in which this individual consciousness is currently embedded, misses the point of transition. "Whether it is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or, by opposing, end them?" In other words, shall one suffer poverty with integrity and the chance to transition to 4D STO, or possibly fall into an STS-trap by focusing on self-preservation. Give to all who ask, right? Well, aren't creditors asking to be repaid? Doesn't legal debt always come with a promise by the debtor to repay? So, learn the lessons and pay off the karma. What's so hard about that?

Well, it just so happens that it's really hard. Not having monetary debt myself, I am in no position to judge how one might go about repaying theirs. But we all have debts of some kind. Mine happen not to be financial at the moment. My anxiety is placed elsewhere, and it is calling me to see where I am binding myself to this realm. I most definitely want to pay my way out of this mess, and no doubt, regardless of the nature of the debt.... It. Is. Really. Really. Hard. Work.

Maybe I've learned the lessons of money and some haven't. I'll bet there are plenty of lessons I've not learned that are distant memories for others here. But, it's all the same lesson. STO or STS? That, to me, is the guiding factor in any decision.

Neil covered this in depth in his post above. It's worth giving his words a good read.

But to sum it up simply:

You cannot give back that which doesn't exist.

-And I mean that very directly, very simply: There is more debt in existence than there is money.

To elaborate somewhat:

Every dollar put into circulation creates instantly more dollars worth of debt than it is worth. That's how compound interest works. You give back that dollar, but you owe more on top of that. And the longer you wait before paying it back, the bigger the debt grows; compound interest accumulates over time.

Default is mathematically inevitable.

Though, not for everybody. -There are a small number of people who manage to play musical chairs with more skill or luck or whatever, and they can gain a place to sit.

But a lot of somebodies, (most of them if we think in a global sense, because that's the level at which the Banking scam works), no matter how hard they work, no matter how hard they pull themselves up by their bootstraps, *must* default. The amount of debt is many magnitudes greater than the whole money supply.

That's the evil genius of the banking scam; the bankers through this cynically devised system end up owning either the property seized from people in lieu of the money they 'owe', or they own those debtors as slaves. Usually both.

Also... I find it common (out in the regular world) that debtors are characterized as either unwise, lazy, having received something for nothing. It is an easy, emotional, Fox Newsy position to default to by those who haven't fully realized the nature of the problem. --And this happens for a variety of reasons; Some people are programmed in the authoritarian mindset and they want to see people punished for disobeying a symbolic (or real) father figure, "I was the good son! You think I didn't want to oppose father? You think I liked studying and working on stuff I hate? But I suffered and see? I was rewarded! So why should YOU be rewarded when you didn't have to suffer? Because you were more courageous in facing Father than I was? I HATE you! You must SUFFER for not being me! You deserve it!"

Or something along those lines.

I'm not suggesting that this is you, but it is I think, a common baseline psychological pattern among those angered by debtors and those terrible welfare moms, who are "destroying" the economy; getting a free lunch, etc..

-Which is not to say that STS behavior and laziness do not exist. Heavens no! Of course they do. But the problem is a great deal more nuanced than the Lizard Brain thinking we are encouraged to attack the poor with from the Fox News pulpit.

In my case, I was running a business, working too hard, and I ran into numerous challenges I didn't handle well enough and burned out on. -As it happens, much of this came about as a direct result of doing the internal Work promoted here. It was a hard lesson, made harder because of my ego which refused to admit any sort of personal shortcomings, and it hurt like hell, but it was also very good in the end and I am damned glad I went through that crucible and I take full responsibility for my present circumstance.

But I didn't handle it very gracefully, made mistakes and bit off more than I could chew. I went through a period of panic attacks and what I realized in retrospect was something of a nervous breakdown and wound up screwing up my business, (which I'd come to realize with some horror, was in some ways a pointless load of crap doing more harm in the world than good). During this period, a couple of products I put out were poorly judged, didn't sell enough units, and I couldn't repay the loans. Boom. Spiraling debt.

There are many ways to slip into debt which are not related to sitting in front of the boob tube with a beer in one hand. I don't own a TV and I don't like beer.

For some people, they can do everything right, and still wind up in debt. How can that be?

Here's something to consider:

Simply by eating a meal you can afford, or by buying a car or piece of equipment you have saved up for, somebody else must sink further into debt, or work as a slave, in order to make up the deficit inherent in the economic system which created that product. That's how it works. This effect is spread over the whole of the economy so it can be hard to see, and we keep our slaves in nations far away, so we don't have to look at 'them' or think about them. We obfuscate the issue with gobbledegook economics and complicated BS, but...

The fundamental reality of money is a great deal less complicated than we are led to believe.

 

[sitting]

Neil covered this in depth in his post above. It's worth giving his words a good read.

I second that wholeheartedly.

You might also like this. It was supposedly attributed to Napoleon -- after he was shown a table of compound interest. (Those presently paying rates of 15% or above, will probably relate quite well.)

"The deadly facts herein revealed, lead me to wonder that this monster, interest, has not devoured the whole human race. It would have done so long ago -- if bankruptcy and revolutions had not acted as counter poisons."

Interesting too is what Warren Buffett once said: that his "success" stemmed from a true understanding of compound interest.
That said, he might find himself in for a "bad hair" day soon. Recent mergers not withstanding.

PS
The Napoleon quote came from Money Martyred; Omni Publications 1935.

 

[kalibex]

Um....'dang'....I'm back on the fence again re: paying off debt asap.

Some of my current debt was for a 'good' cause - schooling.

And some of it - the vast majority of it - was due to addictive 'shopping' behaviors.

Now no, I wasn't aware in the forefront of my mind about of the dynamics of what was going on at the time that much of this accrued (and which can still happen, mechanically, every time I don't catch myself)... but that's the root 'cause'.

I do want to either 'karmically' or due to the 'shame' element pay this off to help re-gain my self-respect - I just don't want to 'shoot myself in the foot' further right now if the game really is that rigged. At which point such repayment might be the equivalent of more (unnecessary) self-flaggellation...

:/ :/ :/ :/ :/ :/

 

[SeekinTruth]

Well, any agreement that is made through fraud/manipulation is not a valid agreement, as in the case of fractional reserve banking and only creating the principle at the time of loan and expecting the principle plus interest to be paid to close out the loan (there's never enough money in the money supply to pay off the debts accrued by society, perpetuating debt indefinitely). I don't think a moral case can be made in many situations to pay back the loans to the fraudsters - BUT it's a legal / law enforcement issue that can be a threat in the future, not a moral/ethical one that one needs to consider.

 

[Deleted member 9511]

Neil, Woodsman, sitting, SeekinTruth, all very good points. This sums up the arguments nicely against the fraudulent nature of fractional reserve banking.

Well, any agreement that is made through fraud/manipulation is not a valid agreement, as in the case of fractional reserve banking and only creating the principle at the time of loan and expecting the principle plus interest to be paid to close out the loan (there's never enough money in the money supply to pay off the debts accrued by society, perpetuating debt indefinitely). I don't think a moral case can be made in many situations to pay back the loans to the fraudsters - BUT it's a legal / law enforcement issue that can be a threat in the future, not a moral/ethical one that one needs to consider.

And it's interesting that we are supposedly here in this 3D STS realm due to our naivete, in that 4D STS beings seduced us into believing it would be fun. I see similar parallels in the fraudulent contracts to which we bind ourselves through banking and other institutions. In the case of 4D STS trickery that got us here, it couldn't have happened unless we agreed, but that doesn't mean we don't have an escape clause. We do - The Work. I guess I'm a little uncomfortable with simply ignoring debts as that seems too simple. If the repayment of karmic debt is challenging, to say the least, then I propose that the analogous repayment of financial debt comes with it's own challenges, as well.

Now, that's not to say that defaulting on debts is verboten as far as repaying with money goes. After all...

But to sum it up simply:

You cannot give back that which doesn't exist.

But there was an exchange. Something was promised. I think the term that makes a contract binding, or at least one of them is "consideration." And here's is where each person has to look deep into their own psyche to find what is the nature of that consideration. The do-nothing option is mere abnegation, and probably does more harm than good. Something has to be "paid-back", though not necessarily money, and not to anyone in particular, either. The energy of debt has to be released.

And, it is certainly possible that getting oneself in absolutely the right frame of mind is all that is needed to resolve the issue, but be sure not to leave any doubts in the shadows. Those doubts are debts too.

 

[kalibex]

Something has to be "paid-back", though not necessarily money, and not to anyone in particular, either. The energy of debt has to be released.

And, it is certainly possible that getting oneself in absolutely the right frame of mind is all that is needed to resolve the issue, but be sure not to leave any doubts in the shadows. Those doubts are debts too.

Such as fully understanding the meaning that led to the debt being generated in the first place? And deciding what 'repayment' means in each case? IE, 'repayment' could equal 'knowingly feeding another' / 'punishing self unduly', or it could equal 'symbolically dismantling chains'; it would depend on the individual's context?

 

[Deleted member 9511]

Something has to be "paid-back", though not necessarily money, and not to anyone in particular, either. The energy of debt has to be released.

And, it is certainly possible that getting oneself in absolutely the right frame of mind is all that is needed to resolve the issue, but be sure not to leave any doubts in the shadows. Those doubts are debts too.

Such as fully understanding the meaning that led to the debt being generated in the first place? And deciding what 'repayment' means in each case? IE, 'repayment' could equal 'knowingly feeding another' / 'punishing self unduly', or it could equal 'symbolically dismantling chains'; it would depend on the individual's context?

And be sure to remember this:

BUT it's a legal / law enforcement issue that can be a threat in the future, not a moral/ethical one that one needs to consider.

If you choose not to repay the debts, and do it with a clear conscience, there also has to be a sincere willingness to comply with any legal/law enforcement ramifications. Think of acts of civil disobedience. They are insincere if those who perform them are unwilling to go to jail. Sincerity is necessary.

From time to time I may refer to my experiences with a Himalayan yogi, whom I consider to be a true Master. It matters little whether anyone else agrees with me about this yogi, and I understand how many charlatans are out there, and even that there are some who are advanced, but maybe not as much as they think they are. Nevertheless, I really respect this yogi's teachings, which are often Q&A dialogues, either in retreat or by some form of closed broadcast. He has also written several books and others have written about him, but I digress. The reason I mention it, is that he was asked during a broadcast what is the most important quality for the seeker on the spiritual journey. His answer: "Sincerity."

So, however the debt is repaid, it has to be paid in full, which is to say with full commitment to returning the principal. Interestingly, this argument suggests that it can be done by committing to principles with sincerity, rather than mere repayment of principal amounts. I imagine repaying the debt principal and interest owed, but doing so with with a grudge, would also violate in some way the principle that is of interest. ;)

 

[domi]

It is perhaps not the good topic for this because you speak about credit card but I wonder what about mortgage if the banks collapse ?

When you make a credit for a house, amounts are so important it is impossible to decide now to pay off its debt or not.

If there is no more money, what the banks will do with our house ?

If they decide to get the house (like in the subprime in 2008) to recover the debt, it will be impossible for them to sell because there will be no buyer.
So would they let us home ?

Do you have any idea on that ?

Warren Buffet through Berkshire Hathaway has been buying real estate brokerages.
My guess is he has some idea of what is coming and is positioning himself to sell/manage properties in the future.