I missed the development of this thread. Much has been said, and since there is much to say in return, I will only at this point reply to alpha_wheel's first post. Please, forgive the lengthy ramble, nevertheless.
alpha_wheel said:
if your notion of spirituality is only about deconstructing the way a system must reach out to people through advertising or making bold statements... i think you perhaps lack the ability to take things in on a large scale and could use a dose of perspective.
So where do you come to that conclusion? Sounds like an assumption to me. The conclusion is logical in isolation, but it does not apply here.
alpha_wheel said:
we live in a world saturated with over-stimulation and social/cultural phenomena that seduces us into waking slumber... i think we can allow the leveraging of such things as advertising and bright colors. the buddhists do it in their own way too... and have been doing it for a very long time.
So have manipulators and perpetuators of human suffering. But all that is beside the point. The question is WHAT does the teaching promise, and WHAT does it deliver?
Can we come to some conclusions (especially those of us with some experience regarding different systems) through the observations of others (positive AND negative)? The fact that the advertising of the system promotes certain conclusions allows us to do so, I think.
alpha_wheel said:
the fact that some here have resistance to new experiences.. . tells me nothing about the system. this is not news to me (and you also, i am pretty sure). just take ANY system of development and i assure you, not everyone who uses it will see obvious benchmarks in their progress. this lack of experience has virtually nothing to do with the adequacy of a system, unless it is complete hogwash, which Higher Balance is not.
I agree, although the 10% success rate mentioned previously doesn't really make it a good investment, IMO. That success rate does not make the system hogwash, just not worth the trouble. Then again, it depends how you define "hogwash". To me hogwash is the teaching of psychic tricks under the name of spirituality.
Anyone experienced in spirituality knows the difference.
alpha_wheel said:
expectation can be very subtle, so don't assume it is illigitimate for the support staff to address just because you can't see its paradoxical role. it can be as simple as *expecting* that a revelatory experience will come in the form of something tangible to the 5 senses... or their reflection in some dimension of your imagination... or in some bodily sensation. i'm not saying that you should have blind faith... but that a GENUINE open-ended/pragmatic intention to consistently apply and reflect with these techniques will reveal more than you would have ever expected. ... just let go and see what YOU might be contributing to your inertia
You know, I was able to talk like this long before I had any genuine experiences. I was even amazed that people took me seriously. Intellectually, word for word, what you say is true. On the other hand, the same paragraph can be used to cover the fact that there is no progress whatsoever, or rather "progress" is of the imagination, and the imagine can give you "more than you ever expected". So the above paragraph says nothing useful either way. A consistent open-ended intention works when one is conditioned just as it works when one is being de-conditioned. "Let go" has been the catch phrase of many a washer of brains.
alpha_wheel said:
what i've learned about most who are posting here is that you have knowledge and techniques you apply that connect you directly to source consciousness... that give you direct experiences of an intense multi-dimensional nature and are a means for the highest level of communion with god/universe/absolute/etc...
so where are they? what are they? how do they work?
I see that you seem to be labelling people here to be of the "just add water and see god" school. Well, maybe not so "instant", but you do seem to be throwing high words out (a display of knowledge?) under the guise of assuming that this is the impression people here give. Funny, I never saw that, although I post regularly (no affiliation to the site, however).
You know, a spiritual intellectualizer usually presents inner development as something that can be communicated in a few steps in some sort of a users manual. Conveniently, this "manual" can then be packaged and sold.
Of course, that does not mean you can't describe development directly in a few words, just that people won't understand them if you do. Otherwise teachers of old wouldn't have wasted their breath on lengthy parables, riddles and long-winded speeches.
alpha_wheel said:
the vibe i get here is that people aren't very giving... there are those who dominate the intellectual terrain here and sort of sit on a bit of a high horse... and those who suckle at their proverbial teets... why? i dunno... maybe because this is how social networks naturally emerge as the laws of attraction play on 'sentient' automata ^____^
And the "vibe" I get is that you are simply protecting a business interest. Not a crime in this society, but certainly not the most noble of motives. The rest of this paragraph is just you mumbling to yourself methinks. I dunno about the high horse thing...in reading the above paragraph I had to strain my own neck a bit to look past the giant four legged edifice.
i think we should start integrating and finding out how our systems are similar and work together in our desire to find what we seek most... instead of sitting back like a bunch of heirophants who can't see our own predicament.
Another general statement that can be true, but does not apply here. The point is the difference in the understanding of the word "system". A set of instructions with claims of being "the path" is one form of "system". A complex organic development based on constant feedback and living examples, however, cannot be packaged in such a manner. There is a difference between buying growth and doing it. Therefore, the whole point of the posts here was to identify that there are no similarities.
alpha_wheel said:
the support staff told you that you need to surrender expectation, then you probably do. none are exempt from this fact. you must see truly how it is manifesting for YOU.
Again, when a product is laden with promises such as this one expectations are to be expected. Perhaps such misunderstandings would not occur if the promoters stated the need to surrender expectation in bold letters in their product promotions. Otherwise, a customer might see it as false advertising.
alpha_wheel said:
the other thing is... its been 3+ years and you're still getting ABSOLUTELY NOTHING as a result??... seems like you would have found something better and more authentic... or at least taken advantage of their 'lifetime money back guarantee' and refrained from purchasing any additional material ... hehe
Spoken like a true businessperson. Well, the term "success" does depend on the scope of one's ambition, doesn't it? Making a few bucks is usually easier than changing the world...
alpha_wheel said:
so tell me ... where is it? please share with us... we all want the best knowledge... so i think it would be worth it for you and for everyone else to discover the cutting edge.
"Where is it?" reminds me of an ancient Greek comedy where "students" were looking for the truth by peering up their teacher's togas with the "cutting edge" of their lanterns, asking the same question.
I have to agree with you that the truth doesn't sell. At least that is the conclusion I draw from the above statement. If it did, then answers to "where is it?" would have us all in redemption land already.
So if you want to make a buck and get that edge, you gotta give people simple answers. And when that is not enough, you gotta tell them that they just gotta release expectations and hold their breath. And when that is not enough you gotta lay it on karma.
Even so releasing expectations and that karma factor do come into play in a major way. But that is why simple answers never work, and the path to truth cannot be packaged and sold. Again, your average customer doesn't know this until after parted from their money.
alpha_wheel said:
... c'mon. let's deflate all the cunning egoic chameleon suits here and really ask ourselves... is it the techniqe that must be deconstructed? or is it the interior/karma of the individual in question here.
Four words above that denote excellent salesmanship ("cunning egoic chamelion suits"). A nice catchphrase similar to what many a spiritual intellectualizer uses. Words are funny things. They can deceive, and they can reveal. In this case, I think your suit is of excellent fit and thread. It seems to me that that's the real product being sold by HBI here.
Although your latter question can be valid, the words you use ("technique" and "deconstructed") describe structures of conditioning, not growth. Can you imagine calling the growth of an infant into an adult as a "technique" or speaking of "deconstructing" such growth?
There's this mechanical flavour to your descriptions that belies more the world of the automaton (through which one can surely learn to perform psychic tricks) rather than what a living person might consider to be an organic dynamic.
alpha_wheel said:
i honestly do not believe it is the method. methods are containers; delivery systems... and also potentially traps, as much as you need them to get a footing and bridge over to higher awareness... who really cares how you learn just as long as you GET IT?
i'm not saying that it is the one true way for anything....
I don't think it is the method either actually. With a 10% success rate (IF that is true) the method is probably quite a weak influence. Of course, I don't disagree with most of what you say here. I think that methods can provide a footing of sorts, a kind of structure as a complement to less structured understandings.
They cannot, however, forge any bridges anywhere because methods are too structured to do so. As such, methods are way too overrated to sell. Not only that, but all the methods one really needs are available through a few books. People have tried methods for ages (especially over the last three decades), and the results have always been either psychic conditioning or nothing.
Before you jump on me here, let me elaborate.
Inner development is physiologically based. Neural pathways do change, and there is a biochemical rebalancing in the human body/mind. However, a method will always lead to a specific redirection of those pathways, maybe even one that leads to a greater euphoria-based biochemistry, and some psychic abilities.
And this happens in those few with the corresponding predisposition (karma) to attain those results. Anyone can easily say that there is nothing wrong with that. The fact is, however, that any specified redirection of pathways is a re-conditioning, and in the end you open a small window to certain feelings and perceptions, and your life may change into something else, but IT DOES NOT TRANSFORM.
What's the difference? In the first case, IF you are one of the few with the right predisposition toward specified re-conditioning, you might become a better functioning social machine, with specialized enhanced capacities that are still adapted to the reality around you. This is what most self-help techniques actually promote as a worthwhile goal.
The problem is society itself is a machine that is geared toward collapse. So if you are not promoting self-help and adaptation to the current collective field, but transcendence to the truth underlying appearances, you need to do far more than just provide "better" programming.
Let me continue this train of thought in reply to your last paragraph.
alpha_wheel said:
what i'm saying is that if most people are satisfied with FEELING BETTER about life and have found some adequate system for translating their experience in this dimension and for legitimizing their worldview... then, so be it.
Heard the same speech from a drug dealer once. Again, I don't want to knock your product, just put it into perspective. I believe in free will, so if people want to feel better about the conditioned life in which they find themselves, and legitimise their programmed worldview, then so be it.
But they should at least know that that is what they are getting, and that even that kind of training is not guaranteed. They should not be told that they are penetrating into the true nature of reality, but that they are conditioning their window of perception to another, just as narrow view.
They should also be told that the more you teach your brain to be conditioned and re-conditioned, the harder it is to de-condition it if that should be your desire at some point. That's actually one of the reasons many esoteric teachers advise against drugs. They tend to chemically re-condition the brain in specific ways.
Specified electronic stimulation can do the same thing, as can rigid belief in doctrines.
alpha_wheel said:
that is everyone's right as a child of the universe... but for the others out there that have wandered the metaphysical desert of this world... in this paradigm.. nothing else will suffice.
All well and good, but what you offer is a methodology that takes one off a given conditioned track, and puts one upon another one. And the new track is a deeper groove because it is positively reinforced with the brains hyper-stimulated euphoriants.
So if I don't sell drugs, but promote methods to stimulate the brain's own drug factory in specific ways (as opposed to allowing it find its own balance through de-conditioning, which is unstructured and non-specific) I essentially provide a similar service as the dealer. Kind of like the difference between being a pimp and "toy" salesperson.
Regarding your last comment, conditioned euphoric states ARE a temptation to those looking for meaning, and because they are conditioned, they are a trap because at some point the body will develop a tolerance effect to the enhanced state.
This is very subtle and gradual, but usually results (from my observations) in the need for more stimulation. This may mean buying more products. It may also be reflected in the need to spread the word so others feel the same way. That in itself is a stimulus, as many who like to get high in good company know.
Eventually, the high will become more difficult to attain, and the conditioned individual will deny this consciously. Instead they can either dissociate from their emotions or channel them to various obsessions masking as ideals.
In the end they will be able to talk about experiences, especially the great highs of the past, but the present will be sterile. This is a dissonance that is not faced easily because unless one goes back to square one through some kind of profound death/rebirth experience one is constantly faced with meaninglessness, that is nothing more than the brain building tolerance to conditioned stimuli.
When those stimuli are mistaken for that path to "truth and knowledge" then we are indeed trapped. Now I am not saying these things flippantly. I tried a lot of methods, before and after reaching certain thresholds of experience, and I tried them to see what they were doing to me.
I spent years doing this without expectation, because I simply didn't know. At some point I wanted (in a well-meaning manner) to find something I could market and help others (as well as myself). Time and again, however, I observed the results I described above, results that are not easily observable if one has not extensively tackled the real problem of the quest for truth, our own conditioned programming.
Giving people methods of euphoria conditioning is not unethical, IMO, as long as they are presented as such. Free will is only meaningful when one is informed, osit.
