everything

[truth seeker]

Hi Abstract,

I didn't mean for my replies to you to come off as harsh so apologies if it did. I'm basing my replies to you on a pattern of behavior that I've seen in your posts. From where I sit (and my interpretation could be off), you seem to get upset about a situation in your life, become frustrated and ask for advice. Your primary response seems to be that you are uncomfortable with feeling this frustration as well as the mirrors (which is perfectly normal) and are unsure of what action to take (which is also perfectly normal). The action you seem to take is what makes you feel the most comfortable which is usually to remove yourself from the situation. This is what I'm seeing. I could be wrong.

I have done the same thing many, many times in my life and unfortunately it has never gotten me anywhere. All it does is prolong the amount of time it takes to get the lesson.

The thing is, to you, each situation seems completely different. From my point of view, it's the same issue/lesson that keeps presenting itself to you and will continue to do so until you have learned it.

There will never be a perfect situation. Not in the way we want it to be where we are happy all the time and everything runs smoothly. I mean this with no harshness at all, but there is no running from this. Until the lesson is learned, the lesson will unfortunately keep getting more difficult or rather present itself in a bigger, more upsetting way.

We are all here trying to help you see this in order to save you time.

Perhaps others will chime in and help to give a more objective view on this.

Maybe i'll just do that, take a break, chill out, do some of the reccomended reading, get my freakin' head back on straight, because right now

I don't think i'm in a condition to be interacting the way i am on this forum, not that i'm going to quit, but just back off a bit.

What do you guys think?

I think you should stay with this feeling and continue to post. Just with a little less anger. :)

 

[abstract]

Alright...

think you should stay with this feeling and continue to post. Just with a little less anger.

hmmmm.....

I still feel like i should take a break, im getting upset over all these dumb things when i should be approaching things more objectively.

what right do i have to post if it just confuses me further, and probably confuses you guys who are spending precious time responding to my

ridiculousness? Perhaps i will continue to post, but not to ask for advice, just posting when its genuinely warranted, not cause im temporarily in

a fix. Maybe i need some positive dissociative time, play my guitar, stuff like that.

I appreciate the honesty i get here, i cant get it anywhere else. :)

 

[truth seeker]

what right do i have to post if it just confuses me further, and probably confuses you guys who are spending precious time responding to my ridiculousness?

You're absolutely worth it Abstract! :) and it's not ridiculousness, just life!

 

[Laura]

You know something....its possible i just need a break, there's all this stuff going on with me and maybe i need to just let things settle down,

work on my diet, do my EE, not post so much because maybe it's distracting somehow?

Maybe i'll just do that, take a break, chill out, do some of the reccomended reading, get my freakin' head back on straight, because right now

I don't think i'm in a condition to be interacting the way i am on this forum, not that i'm going to quit, but just back off a bit.

What do you guys think?

I think that is a good idea. Judging by the reaction/language you used to another forum member in a PM that she forwarded to me (yes, she shouldn't have written to you offlist, but in context, it was more innocent than not), I think you really need to work on your diet and getting a handle on your emotions. As Gurdjieff said, you ARE your horse... and your horse really needs to be schooled.

 

[Joe]

Okay, this is what gets me confused as all hell...

Oxajil and deedlet come in saying i made a good decision and all that but truthseeker, you're being very harsh and i know its just 'cause you want

me to SEE myself, you're holding up a mirror for me...and i appreciate it, i really do, i've learned a lot from this mirroring that goes on here.

so why these mixed responses?

This is one of those "i don't get it" moments, and maybe i need to have those so i can come to an important realization about myself.

Are all of you correct in a way? Aren't all the responses worth considering? I don't wanna beat myself up but i dont wanna pat myself on the back...

Hi Abstract, I don't think there was anything objectively harsh in the questions truth seeker posed to you. As for the mixed responses you got. I would say that your best bet is to focus on the ones that your disliked the most and write down and think about why you didn't like them.

 

[abbyjo]

Hi Abstract,

I didn't mean for my replies to you to come off as harsh so apologies if it did. I'm basing my replies to you on a pattern of behavior that I've seen in your posts. From where I sit (and my interpretation could be off), you seem to get upset about a situation in your life, become frustrated and ask for advice. Your primary response seems to be that you are uncomfortable with feeling this frustration as well as the mirrors (which is perfectly normal) and are unsure of what action to take (which is also perfectly normal). The action you seem to take is what makes you feel the most comfortable which is usually to remove yourself from the situation. This is what I'm seeing. I could be wrong.

I have done the same thing many, many times in my life and unfortunately it has never gotten me anywhere. All it does is prolong the amount of time it takes to get the lesson.

The thing is, to you, each situation seems completely different. From my point of view, it's the same issue/lesson that keeps presenting itself to you and will continue to do so until you have learned it.

There will never be a perfect situation. Not in the way we want it to be where we are happy all the time and everything runs smoothly. I mean this with no harshness at all, but there is no running from this. Until the lesson is learned, the lesson will unfortunately keep getting more difficult or rather present itself in a bigger, more upsetting way.

We are all here trying to help you see this in order to save you time.

Perhaps others will chime in and help to give a more objective view on this.

Maybe i'll just do that, take a break, chill out, do some of the reccomended reading, get my freakin' head back on straight, because right now

I don't think i'm in a condition to be interacting the way i am on this forum, not that i'm going to quit, but just back off a bit.

What do you guys think?

I think you should stay with this feeling and continue to post. Just with a little less anger. :)

I agree with all of this. It is similar to Ouspensky's discussion of the difference between 2d and 3d...where in 2d what is seen is a series of separate unrelated things...until the "aha" moment when perspective comes...for too many of us it comes late in life...

While I am more than twice your age, I had a very similar experience to what you describe with your sister occur about this time last year, May 2009 (was posted on my blog which i can possibly resurrect, but maybe it's been erased for a reason) having to do with these very same issues: privacy, breathing room, smoking anything but pot in particular, internet access and tenant's rights. The same issues became the subject of a formal complaint filed by the State of California against the landlord who was doing to me exactly what your sister was doing to you, only I had paid in full, in advance, in cash and had a receipt for that cash. Coincidentally, he was also a member of a church which he was an activate member of. After I moved out or as I was packing I discovered he had a record for "violence against children" filed by his ex-wife, and several lawsuits pending against him, I just added a few.

I also did a lot of praying while there to find a way out and that did come, but the issues raised are still hot, if not for me personally for other friends. Many of those issues have come up again and again without the pot. Many exist in a hidden form wherever I go until I investigate, do more research, find better was to communicate clearly my intentions and clarify within my own conscious mind what those intentions really are. That takes a great deal of honesty with one's self. Honesty sometimes is painful. My approach has been to contemplate more than to litigate, but litigation is a wonderful skill to have and I do not apologize for 25 years in the service of some great attorneys, bless their hearts.

I think if you could not breathe in your sister's home, it would be hard to do EE (lol) so I feel you did make the right choice for the moment.

Only you know what you might be avoiding, what words were spoken in defense of ego and what actions were taken to do The Work.

I read everything you wrote so far what stands out is your need for understanding, acknowledgement and acceptance, trust and LOVE from your kin were not met while you were living with her.

You do not know me, either. Yet you jumped on me privately for doing something to attack you when I meant no harm, just asked for clarification and the same thing happened on Ashtar...(not that I defend Ashtar), so I am looking in many mirrors, being a mirror for you and asking you again to mirror for me...what do you see in this mirror?

I can tell you honestly that the lessons I still struggle with have to do with trust, specifically trusting people I share a home with, trusting new friends...and paying close attention to when and where words are spoken and if they "ring true" as personal truth for me and for the best that I can expect of ensouled beings...if not, it is some form of STS or karma. As my son says, "STS is not the new catchall for everything that goes wrong in our daily lives..." (paraphrase).

One gets understanding by giving understanding.

Please, abstract, take a deep breath and do the EE.

 

[Buddy]

abstract, consider for a moment that if you really believed that man is a mechanical being, then you would use that to your advantage in your Work. Also, consider for a moment, that from the point of view of other people in your environment, you are just a body. What they think about you and how they react towards you will be determined, in large part, by what they see of you (or rather, how they are programmed to interpret what they see of you).

That is why concepts like playing a role and the Strategic Enclosure is so important and useful in the Work, because from a practical perspective and to a large extent, what other people see when they look at you is under your control.

In the case of sister, what she sees is also accompanied by her past memories of you. In order for her, or anyone else to see you any differently than she used to...to 'trust' you, or whatever, you may need to suffer through the length of time required for any 'new you' to rise in her awareness, while you continue to walk the path of self-discipline and external consideration.

The issue of self-importance doesn't have to be so complicated. As long as you insist on maintaining an externally visible self-concept that is in externally visible opposition to someone else, you can count on self-importance being present.

In my own experience, there seems to be an inverse relationship between self-importance and the ability to empathize with another. Essentially, the closer you can come to being able to fully enter into another person's position is related to how willing you are to give up a sense of self that is a manifestation of your own false personality.

This is what I believe at present, and I am open to correction. :)

 

[Faith]

The issue of self-importance doesn't have to be so complicated. As long as you insist on maintaining an externally visible self-concept that is in externally visible opposition to someone else, you can count on self-importance being present.

In my own experience, there seems to be an inverse relationship between self-importance and the ability to empathize with another. Essentially, the closer you can come to being able to fully enter into another person's position is related to how willing you are to give up a sense of self that is a manifestation of your own false personality.

This is what I believe at present, and I am open to correction. :)

Wow! Very well put! I hope it is correct, because it perfectly makes sense to me :) Thanks man!

Hey Abstract :) Every honest material, no matter how ridiculous you think it is (it isn't), provides you and us with the best, most nutrient soil for growing up.

 

[knowledge_of_self]

Okay, this is what gets me confused as all hell...

Oxajil and deedlet come in saying i made a good decision and all that but truthseeker, you're being very harsh and i know its just 'cause you want

me to SEE myself, you're holding up a mirror for me...and i appreciate it, i really do, i've learned a lot from this mirroring that goes on here.

so why these mixed responses?

Abstract, I didn’t think truthseeker was being ‘harsh’ in what she told you. What she told you was the truth and it hurt for you to hear it so you perceived it as ‘harsh’. As Perceval pointed out, it might help if you go back and re-read truthseeker’s post and write down what you perceived as harsh and why.

I’m sorry if my post caused you to get mixed signals, because in fact as I stated before I do agree with truthseeker’s point of you missing an opportunity to practice the Work with your sister. But life is full of opportunities to do the work, and you’re on the doorstep of one as we speak. I perceived that you were becoming emotional and wanted to remind you that you can do the work in your new situation. As truth seeker pointed out, there will never be a perfect situation and the lesson will come back in different ways- each time harder until you learn it. That’s why I quoted the C’s- “All is lessons”.

A little while a go I went through a similar situation of ‘running away’. What I was running away from was a co-worker at my job who is very narcissistic and I wrote about it in this thread. I was about to quit and go to a more “comfortable” situation. But after networking with the group, I realized I was missing an opportunity to practice the art of stalking and doing the Work on a regular basis. I decided to stick it out- and I’m still practicing the work everyday when I go to work.

At the time anart told me something and I perceived it as cold, just as you perceived truthseeker’s response to be harsh. But when I thought about it- anart had a great point and so does truthseeker.

If I would have chosen to go to the more ‘comfortable’ job- I’m sure the universe would have thrown something in my life to take that ‘comfort’ away- and I would have begun to do the Work in the situation presented to me thereafter. It’s a continuous cycle and it will keep going until we get it right- at least that’s my understanding of it and I could be completely wrong.

 

[abbyjo]

The issue of self-importance doesn't have to be so complicated. As long as you insist on maintaining an externally visible self-concept that is in externally visible opposition to someone else, you can count on self-importance being present.

In my own experience, there seems to be an inverse relationship between self-importance and the ability to empathize with another. Essentially, the closer you can come to being able to fully enter into another person's position is related to how willing you are to give up a sense of self that is a manifestation of your own false personality.

This is what I believe at present, and I am open to correction. :)

Wow! Very well put! I hope it is correct, because it perfectly makes sense to me :) Thanks man!

Hey Abstract :) Every honest material, no matter how ridiculous you think it is (it isn't), provides you and us with the best, most nutrient soil for growing up.

if the self-image has to do with OPPOSING someone else...it is going to create ripples...perhaps this is what Ouspensky is talking about in terms of perspective...needing to literally walk around something before you get it....see it from all sides....then put it together in your mind...but in order to see the new image you have to let go of the old one which in my personal experience often involves wanting to be right, wanting to be seen for having suffered, etc., which is basically self-serving. whenever i, you or anyone else lashes out because we are tired, frustrated, hungry, scared, angry, hurt, helpless, etc. it is still an opposition to other...that other is also us. mayans have a saying, "in lakesh" = i am another you.

there is a war zone but we are primarily as i see it at this moment in time at a war with ourselves over our own thoughts...which are truly ours?
comments made are about thoughts, human experiences of those thoughts, and the motivation for me is truth, learning, self-awareness...when we keep asking ourselves Who Am I? it gets a bit confusing, but that seems to be true for many seekers, not just you, abstract.

if i hang onto my old past perception from yesterday or even an hour ago, i am guilty of continuing to manifest that perception and of bringing that past into the present unless i examine each word carefully before during and after it is spoken/written. perhaps this is what "stalking" means in the context of Don Juan and being a spiritual warrior...ask yourself, why did i write that? and be prepared to be truthful when others make comments "you do not want to hear." There are many things I do not want to hear (lol) I have many pair of earplugs for that purpose.

As soon as I see you as another me, lesson is learned. Peace?

 

[Andromeda]

As Gurdjieff said, you ARE your horse... and your horse really needs to be schooled.

Hi abstract,

I am not trying to be harsh here but I'm not gonna sugar coat it either.......

I think it might help you to practice changing your focus by REALLY putting yourself in others shoes and stopping indulging in blame. Even when somebody else is at fault in some way.

Reviewing this recent experience in the most dispassionate way possible to try and figure out what lesson can be learned from it is a good idea. Here are some things that I am picking up from your account:

1. You are acting defensively. An example is your stating and restating of your intention to get your GED and the fact that you have quit smoking pot. I for one, do not DISBELIEVE you but trust is earned with anyone by creating a positive track record. If I see a post from you in a while that says that you have accomplished your GED and you are still not smoking, I will be more inclined to actively trust your ability to do what you intend. I think that even if your sis and bro in law are acting unfairly towards you in ways of expectation, you are doing the same thing by expecting their trust to develop in 2 weeks. You could have fairly expected to get lectures and such for a time while working to build a track record with them.

2. STS forces and your sister and brother in law’s narcissism should not be the scapegoat here. ALL of us have STS traits and are narcissistic until we learn not to be. Self importance is a form of narcissism. Feeling like others are being unfair by not recognizing our worth, maturity, intelligence and trustworthiness immediately is narcissism.

I can see how moving out of your sisters place might have been a missed opportunity but maybe you are right in feeling that it was too much too soon. What you do with this choice NOW is what’s important. Will you really use your more comfortable and safe environment to do things that help you grow? If you decide to, it certainly would be a good revenge on all of those who doubted you and will help you to feel more in control of your life by building a positive track record for yourself. A man who can practice discipline in comfort is exceptional indeed.

 

[abstract]

Thank you all for the responses.

I won't say anything else right now except that I am deeply considering all your replies.

This is why I participate here...I get challenged, not babied.

K, so i'll take me a break, get some activities going.

Also, I sent abbyjo an apology, and would like to publicly apologize to her, my behavior was not acceptable. I'm sorry.

 

[herondancer]

1. You are acting defensively. An example is your stating and restating of your intention to get your GED and the fact that you have quit smoking pot. I for one, do not DISBELIEVE you but trust is earned with anyone by creating a positive track record. If I see a post from you in a while that says that you have accomplished your GED and you are still not smoking, I will be more inclined to actively trust your ability to do what you intend. I think that even if your sis and bro in law are acting unfairly towards you in ways of expectation, you are doing the same thing by expecting their trust to develop in 2 weeks. You could have fairly expected to get lectures and such for a time while working to build a track record with them.

2. STS forces and your sister and brother in law’s narcissism should not be the scapegoat here. ALL of us have STS traits and are narcissistic until we learn not to be. Self importance is a form of narcissism. Feeling like others are being unfair by not recognizing our worth, maturity, intelligence and trustworthiness immediately is narcissism.

I can see how moving out of your sisters place might have been a missed opportunity but maybe you are right in feeling that it was too much too soon. What you do with this choice NOW is what’s important. Will you really use your more comfortable and safe environment to do things that help you grow? If you decide to, it certainly would be a good revenge on all of those who doubted you and will help you to feel more in control of your life by building a positive track record for yourself. A man who can practice discipline in comfort is exceptional indeed.

Hi Abstract,

I don't have much to add, except "what everyone said", but I feel what Andromeda wrote above goes to the heart of a practical approach for yourself. It does sound like your sister's house would have been too much, too soon, but won't you run into the same obstacles in your parent's house? Maybe in a lighter form, but the essence of it is your track record so far.

You will need to put in some serious, long-term effort to alter what seems to be a fairly consistent assessment by your family regarding your past approach to life. That will not change overnight, and it won't change unless you are seen consistently and long-term to be behaving differently. Two weeks is not going to prove that.

One small discipline you might try is when posting in emotional states, avoid any need to use "****" 's in your text (or for extra credit, in your speech. Much harder! ) My parents used to say needing profanity to express oneself was a kind of laziness. That one wasn't willing to take the time to find a more nuanced way to communicate. I'm not saying you are lazy, but you have a more than adequate vocabulary. It would be one more way to get a grip on your horses. Maybe write the post with all the feeling you need and however it comes out. Then go over it and clean it up. Get a thesaurus even. It's a great way to find out about new words, or new ways to use them.

Herondancer

 

[Cyre2067]

Hey Abstract, your post kinda resonated with my current living situation and reminded me of my own self-importance and how it acts up and I go on the defensive when I get 'pricked'. I posted about my roommate situation a while ago, and got some really good feedback. I've come to see the extreme narcissist in one of my roomies and the feminine vampire in another. The third seems totally normal, and we get a long rather swimmingly.

The hardest part is not using their personalities as excuses for my own behavior. To force myself to do things around the apartment because they need to be done, and to not 'retaliate' in a passive-aggressive style. I'm assuming more and more the role of the father in the house: I fix things, dispose of rodents/bugs, handle the bills, and keep the kitchen clean.

The difficulty comes when I see abhorrent, unreasonable behavior in one of my roommates and have to respond to it. Luckily I don't get spied on, but I do get told a lot about my 'college lifestyle' and it can get me all riled up and my emotional thinking sets in. I've even pondered moving out, but when I do I remind myself that it's a great situation to really work on myself and to observe the reactions their craziness causes within. Slowly I've been learning to 'temper the storm' that occurs inside my head and heart when I get 'pricked' by the newest outrage or whatever and deal with things in a calm rational manner.

So while I think it was best for you to move out of your sister's place, don't forget these issues when living with your parents. Watch yourself all the more closely, see what's going on inside your head and how different things get triggered by different people and different situations. My 2 cents.

 

[The rabbit]

One small discipline you might try is when posting in emotional states, avoid any need to use "****" 's in your text (or for extra credit, in your speech. Much harder! ) My parents used to say needing profanity to express oneself was a kind of laziness. That one wasn't willing to take the time to find a more nuanced way to communicate. I'm not saying you are lazy, but you have a more than adequate vocabulary. It would be one more way to get a grip on your horses. Maybe write the post with all the feeling you need and however it comes out. Then go over it and clean it up. Get a thesaurus even. It's a great way to find out about new words, or new ways to use them.

Herondancer

I would agree with what Herondancer has said here , when i first read any of your posts i use to switch off because of the profanity. As regards to being a new person or a good person , im reminded of a famous king who asked a person if he believed him to be a good king. The answer was something like "I cant answer that until your dead"

Also do you think it would be right to give your sister a percentage of the rent for the time you did stay there ?