Experience with buying gold?

Ursus Minor

Jedi Council Member
Thank you foofighter for this indication but this bad surprise served as a lesson to me and it seems to me much better to physically possess these metals, at least I will try to appropriate them according to the actuality. Mike's advice seems to me more judicious.
Oh heck! :shock:
Storing physical gold on other people's premises, like bank vaults or lockers should be a no-no.
When push comes to shove and banks or similar institutions shut down there would be no way of getting your stuff back. When you buy try to do it anonymously, like buying at precious metal shops in a major city.

If you're buying at internet shops you could be leaving a trail of personal information...
 

Neil

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
The gold market is essentially frozen right now. When I heard that the government was doing stimulus checks, I decided to add a half ounce of gold to my bullion collection as a speculative bet that the financial system was about to collapse and gold would be a good hedge. Most of the websites were already running out of supply and I had to search carefully. I found some American Eagles at a store in Tampa I do business with, but was told there was extremely high demand and it would take 7 or 8 days to process my order. A week went by and then I was told that they might get some in two weeks. Two weeks went by and now I'm told it might be 2 months. As it stands now, I don't expect to get my gold and in two months they will probably tell me it will be a year or so. If I can't take physical delivery in 4 or 5 months I will simply dispute the transaction and get my money back. The only things that I can find that are still available are proof coins or oddball offbeat coins selling at ridiculous premiums. So I think that if you don't already have gold it's too late to get into the market. Maybe there will be a brief window of opportunity between the time that the lockdowns end and the final collapse occurs, but its looking pretty iffy to me. This just goes to show how contrived the financial markets are, if the demand for a commodity is high and the supply is 0, then the price would trend towards infinity, or at least a very large number. Instead we're trading in a narrow range around $1700. This dynamic is sort of an inverted image of the oil market circus; the thing that is fundamental for modern industrial society to function now has a negative value; ie it's better off if it was never mined. At least the negative value thing was short lived, but I think it's a strong symbolic statement about the state and worth of so-called Western Civilization.

Over the years I have vacillated over whether I should join the BTFD crowd, as the Fed is now literally printing trillions of dollars a week, we have zero reserve, purely fictitious banking, and the US dollar just trundles along like everything is just fine. Nothing seems to matter, the staus quo will be maintained. However, when the question about the PTB being able to maintain the illusion indefinitely was posed to the Cassiopaeans, they were basically like "Nope." So I have been patiently waiting and playing the long game, as I tend to believe the Cs.
Ursus Minor said:
Optimists are buying gold, pessimists are buying canned food.
Well, I would say it is better to have both, and food before gold, diversified portfolio and all of that:-D And you're absolutely right; possession is 9/10 of the law and doubly so when you're holding financial instruments that can make you immune to the economic reset/Beast system or at least provide you some flexibility when they decide to impose it. If you can't hold it in your hand, you don't own it. I've even been considering burying some of it in a hole in case they break down my door and do confiscations, but I haven't gotten that paranoid about it yet.
 
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hlat

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I bought a few grams of gold a few years ago on the goldmoney website.
You could use Kinesis, which has no storage fees and where you can actually earn a yield simply by holding.
Storing physical gold on other people's premises, like bank vaults or lockers should be a no-no.
If you don't have physical control of gold, you don't really own gold, and hold an IOU.

A week went by and then I was told that they might get some in two weeks. Two weeks went by and now I'm told it might be 2 months. As it stands now, I don't expect to get my gold and in two months they will probably tell me it will be a year or so. If I can't take physical delivery in 4 or 5 months I will simply dispute the transaction and get my money back.
Be careful with dispute deadlines. For US credit cards, it's usually the date of the statement containing the posted transaction plus 58 days, so you might be out of luck in 4 months.

I think the best method is buying in person with cash and walking out of the store with the gold. Runner up would be ordering from a reputable dealer using a credit card and disputing the charge in writing if you don't have the gold within 30 days.
 

Mike

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Although I generally agree, I think the financial system has not reached real turmoil yet. Relying on a window of 6-12 months for still being able to acquire physical gold could get you into a situation with probably nothing left on the market and/or gold prices much higher than today.
Yep, it may be the case where the increased premiums for physical metals are permanent or will actually increases over time and then at some point you wouldn't be able to get physical metals with fiat currencies, except at crazy prices (ie hyperinflation of fiat currencies hits mainstreet and the cost of things in terms of goods and things people need or desire the most may skyrocket). IMO this depends on how this all plays out and there may be an opportunity to get physical metals at some point along the way, but I do agree that this may not be the case and that the real turmoil has yet to really begin and may last for a few years and some kind of new system before there is any stability overall.

Also, I figure as the ability to get any kind of physical precious metal dries up that people may move into crypto (especially the mined cryptos that have a cap on coins written into the algorithm, etc and are deflationary) to escape the collapsing system.
 

Mariama

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Also, I figure as the ability to get any kind of physical precious metal dries up that people may move into crypto (especially the mined cryptos that have a cap on coins written into the algorithm, etc and are deflationary) to escape the collapsing system.
That's what Max Keiser said as well: ‘Tables turned’: Investors who dismissed gold as ‘useless pet rock’ now see it as asset during coronavirus crisis – Max Keiser
Asked whether gold is the market’s safest asset in the current climate, Keiser said gold has been the preeminent safe haven for thousands of years but with the introduction of Bitcoin, there is a hard-money substitute for gold “that doesn’t require third-party verification, that’s more portable, and easier to use.”

As to whether gold is less risky than investing in stocks, Keiser said that stock prices are “entirely contingent” on open-market purchases by central banks using paper money – and when central banks collapse, stock values can “easily fall” by 80 percent or more.

“Gold does not have this problem,” he said.

Keiser also said that other precious metals, like silver, platinum or palladium, “move in concert” with gold, but none are as universally accepted.

Only Bitcoin is equal to gold if you are looking for an alternative, he said.
 

Rich

The Living Force
I've always enjoyed watching Keiser on RT.com My problem is that because I am so short of "paper" money right now, I have had to sell pretty much all the gold and sliver I had. I've had to use the cash generated to invest in the various Web Hosting businesses I have. The alternative for me right now would be grinding to a complete stop. I have dabbled in bitcoin but only very small amounts. I remember a coment on FB was bringing up a concern about bitoin is its dependance on the internet being fully functional. I really don't know if at some pint the Internet will be closed down. I did see that threat posted on a video, but I find that one really difficult to believe. I can see the possibility of limiting access to various "trusted" sites gradually but I really don't know?
 

Ursus Minor

Jedi Council Member
Just to throw in a personal experience.

Today I accompanied a lady to a money and bullion shop which had just been allowed to reopen the day before. My role was to aid and advise her and since her amount of gold exceeded the new 1.999 EUR limit* in worth, I had already prepared her for carrying her ID-card with her.

(*In most EU countries there is a 9.999 EUR limit in place, but in Germany the political class just wanted to turn the screws a little bit tighter)

With the deal having almost been concluded we were surprised when the cashier told us she had four questions she wanted to ask her customer.

Firstly she wanted to know where the gold came from. The lady told her that it had been in her family's possession.
(A bit of a pointless question if you're not asking for proof which hardly any customer would be able to provide)

Secondly she wanted to know whether the lady came from a politician's family or had close contacts with politicians!
(That was a question I liked. Are they beginning to monitor the money laundering activities of our politicians?)

The third question was what the customer would likely be doing with the proceeds...
(I actually had to restrain myself from barging in and saying something silly)

Luckily I can't remember what the fourth question was about.

Finally, the cashier told us that her answers would remain on a piece of paper and would not be conveyed to anybody else.

We're living in digital times and these people are storing information on a piece of paper?
Maybe we're just being accustomed to answer all kinds of personal questions...
 

Abats

Jedi Master
FOTCM Member
Just to throw in a personal experience.

Today I accompanied a lady to a money and bullion shop which had just been allowed to reopen the day before. My role was to aid and advise her and since her amount of gold exceeded the new 1.999 EUR limit* in worth, I had already prepared her for carrying her ID-card with her.

(*In most EU countries there is a 9.999 EUR limit in place, but in Germany the political class just wanted to turn the screws a little bit tighter)

With the deal having almost been concluded we were surprised when the cashier told us she had four questions she wanted to ask her customer.

Firstly she wanted to know where the gold came from. The lady told her that it had been in her family's possession.
(A bit of a pointless question if you're not asking for proof which hardly any customer would be able to provide)

Secondly she wanted to know whether the lady came from a politician's family or had close contacts with politicians!
(That was a question I liked. Are they beginning to monitor the money laundering activities of our politicians?)

The third question was what the customer would likely be doing with the proceeds...
(I actually had to restrain myself from barging in and saying something silly)

Luckily I can't remember what the fourth question was about.

Finally, the cashier told us that her answers would remain on a piece of paper and would not be conveyed to anybody else.

We're living in digital times and these people are storing information on a piece of paper?
Maybe we're just being accustomed to answer all kinds of personal questions...
I find this situation completely unbelievable and really weird.
 

Mark

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
The only things that I can find that are still available are proof coins or oddball offbeat coins selling at ridiculous premiums.
You might check into APMEX.com, their in-stock products vary by day so you might want to check it daily and when they have something and you want it then buy it right away otherwise it'll sell out relatively soon - typically less than 24 hours these days. They sell all sorts of metals.

Most major sellers use a markup of around 10% over the spot price, that's been the case for many years best I can tell. Some might mark it up a bit less or a bit more.

You're unlikely to avoid paying the markup - unless maybe you're buying huge amounts.

There are two kinds of spot prices: Bid and Ask. Bid is the price a large buyer is willing to pay, as a base, per troy ounce (31.103 grams). Ask is the base price they're asking of people who want to buy it from them.

What people might not realize is that "spot price" represents a somewhat vague number loosely defined by whoever is buying and selling. The world markets (NY, London, Asia, etc) set a spot price once a day, usually when they open for the day, this is used a starting point for the day in their market, then everyone else adjusts according to their own designs as the day goes on. For example right now Kitco shows 1oz of gold at 1733.60 USD (Ask price). Meanwhile APMEX shows 1748.20 (Ask price). Best I can tell there's no official spot price at any given moment because it fluctuates by the minute and sellers set their own price.

Based on comparing those two site days nearly every day for 3 weeks it looks to me like APMEX puts something like a $15 USD markup on the spot price (Ask) compared to Kitco and then when they sell a 1oz US Eagle gold coin they price that coin at around the "Ask spot price" + 10%.
 

Mark

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Another note about buying: Typically the smaller unit you want the more is costs. For example a 1/2oz coin is more expensive per gram than 1oz coin.
 

Mark

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Just to throw in a personal experience.
I remember selling some gold back in the USA back in around 2002 or 2003, something like that. The buyer businesses had apparently starting asking people where sellers got it before buying it, whereas previously they didn't ask that so I asked why they want to know. They said it was due to 911 and an effort to stop terrorist money movement. Maybe it's the same elsewhere? Dunno.
 

Neil

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
Be careful with dispute deadlines. For US credit cards, it's usually the date of the statement containing the posted transaction plus 58 days, so you might be out of luck in 4 months.
The 7 or 8 day thing intimated to me that they were selling gold they didn't really have. Supposedly the US mint is closed down due to virus and they're only doing very limited runs. So I have basically purchased an IOU from the mint. I placed an online order through paypal that gives me 6 months to dispute.
Another note about buying: Typically the smaller unit you want the more is costs. For example a 1/2oz coin is more expensive per gram than 1oz coin.
I know, but there are two factors that make me prefer smaller coins, cost and overall fungibility. While it is tempting to max out my credit lines and buy a couple of 20oz tubes, investing on any kind of margin is pretty surefire way to me to commit financial suicide. If the economy doesn't completely collapse, I still want the flexibility to function without high debt payments. My creditors have been raising my limits and I now have revolving lines totaling about 3x my annual income. I know they're just waiting for me to do something stupid, especially since they've been letting me play the balance transfer game and I've borrowed money at 2-4% for years. I'm a little bit of a speculator, but a pretty conservative one. The half ounce purchase was covered by the stimulus helicopter money, and was debt free. The PTB probably believe that they will be able to sell everyone on some type of crypto dollar once they really let the markets drop and do their grand reset and gold will truly be a "barbarous relic" with little transactional value, which is the only reason they allow us to hold gold at all.

The main reason I bought 1oz coins is because I thought they looked cool, I'd never seen that much gold in one place, (it was my first purchase) but I don't know how easy they will be to spend when SHTF. If the fiat system collapses and things spiral out of control where the PTB crypto nightmare never really sticks, who knows what it will be worth and it could be difficult to change. An ounce may buy a couple weeks of groceries, or it may buy a 100 acre farm, or Yellowstone might go off and it will buy nothing at all, I don't know. I bought a half ounce this time because I didn't want to pay the premium for the tenth ouncers.
 

hlat

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I placed an online order through paypal that gives me 6 months to dispute.
I don't think it is a good idea to rely on paypal policies. The credit card protections are by law. If you're using paypal, you should be using a credit card through paypal instead of a bank account, and then you are back to the standard credit protections that go by statement date of charge.
 
I also bought some gold during last year period.
If someone buys in shops, look if it is over 94% purity and if possible, ask for certificate.
Franz Joseph is the most popular for (south-eastern) Europe and one of the most valued generally.
I wanted to buy some silver as well, but none of the shop owners wanted to sell it. It is valuable only when is 99% of purity and they use it for melting and jewelry creation.
To be honest it is not easy always buying pure gold in shops (where I live) if you want decent price, but it can be done with patience. Do not know why, but somehow got strange looks and questions by both owners and their employees. It felt almost like I was buying something illegal.
I didn't manage to get much but "spreading" your money is always good and makes you more flexible.
 

hlat

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
If someone buys in shops, look if it is over 94% purity and if possible, ask for certificate.
I think it is better to buy official government coins, eg American eagle, Canadian maple leaf, South African kruggerand. The reason is that there are additional legal protections against counterfeiting government coins, and they can be measured due to their uniform dimensions and weight.
 
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