Faith vs Proof

[Scottie]

Been thinking about this lately, so I figured I might as well share it FWIW.

Traditionally, proof is the realm of the scientific community and is much lauded, and faith is the realm of religion and therefore more frequently poo-pooed.

The C's have said that giving proof is violating free will, more or less. This is hard to disagree with when you really think about it.

If you tell me Jesus was the Son of God, and then show me proof, what choice do I have? According to the Rules of 3d, I cannot do anything but accept it as true.

"The sky is blue!" you say.

"Prove it!" I say.

You then point at the sky and say, "Look! See?!"

Well, I can't really argue, can I? I believe it! Note the word "belief"... No one ever says, "I can see that is objectively true."

There's only one problem: the sky isn't blue. The sky appears blue because the atmosphere absorbs more of other wavelengths of light, and let's the "blue stuff" pass.

Well, okay, that's science, right? In any case, many people have lived their entire lives never knowing WHY the sky is blue, and simply accepted it as a "fact" that wasn't quite a fact.

What about drugs? "Happium" is the new drug that cures depression! Scientifically proven! Oh wait, it also kills 35% of the people who take it for more than 3 months. Oops. But it's proven to work...

Subatomic particles! We know all about them. Except is it a wave, or a particle? Well, blah blah blah blah... Dig deep enough, and there is no Definitive Answer. But scientists keep digging, because they have faith that they will find the answer, or at least help to find one.

Scientists have faith in the scientific method, or they believe in it, or some might say they follow the scientific method. Sounds kind of like following a religion, doesn't it?

If I don't have faith in myself, I can't accomplish anything. I will just sit on the couch like a lump and lament my horrible lot in life.

I propose that almost everything we think and do depends on faith, and not on proof. It is a rather unusual human quality, way of being, or whatever it is.

We speak of learning to trust people again in order to improve relationships with others, and that this involves an emotional risk to ourselves. We might get hurt again, but we try anyway. Sounds like faith to me. Love is the same. You can't love someone if you don't have faith in yourself and the other person.

Science and proof amount to "faith in rules". Those rules are supposedly inviolable, and can never change. Except that sometimes, they do change! Even logic can turn out to be illogical. The world is not a binary computer filled with 1's and 0's, but dang! We sure do try to make it that way...

Proof only offers temporary emotional comfort, the belief that we have things under control. Faith is wild and open and uncertain, and the doorway to infinite possibilities. Faith is less comfy in the short term, but more comfy in the long term. Sometimes, it's downright scary!!

We may strive to see ourselves as objectively as possible, but we also change from day to day. That means there is no end to this kind of work. We may also strive to see the world as objectively as possible. The world also changes day to day, and therefore so must our observations and understanding change day to day. That's a lot of work! Why even bother? Maybe it's because we're nuts, or maybe it's faith.

Having faith can mean you believe in something, or it can mean you "don't believe in anything" but you're certain you'll get there eventually - or die trying.

So, it sure seems to me that faith is one of the most powerful forces out there! To know is to love, as they say, but would you have even started to seek that knowledge without some kind of faith?

Every minute of every day, the universe sits across the dance floor, making eyes at us in the hopes that we will ask it to dance. Do we declare that we first must have proof that the universe is real and safe, or do we just shut up and dance, and see what happens?

 

[luc]

Thanks for that Scottie, very inspiring and well said.

Every minute of every day, the universe sits across the dance floor, making eyes at us in the hopes that we will ask it to dance. Do we declare that we first must have proof that the universe is real and safe, or do we just shut up and dance, and see what happens?

I really like the 'dance' analogy. Indeed, the Universe is asking us to take her hand. Or sitting in the corner, waiting for us to ask. But in any event, we must take the first step - because we choose to do it. No one can tell us that we should do it. In fact, everyone tells us we should NOT do it! So we need faith to choose. Once we are dancing, we learn more, and we know it's real.

It's kind of a cliché, but I really like this analogy as well: A ship in a harbor is safe. But a ship was made to sail the seas, so it will never fulfill its potential and purpose while staying at the harbor. However, the seas are dangerous. To stretch the analogy a bit: the ship needs faith in its own purpose to start the journey. It must come from within so to speak. And when it's out there, it will learn, and wonder how it could have stayed in the harbor for so long, even though it was safer there. But there will always be ships in the harbor rambling on that they need "proof" that it's really worth it to go out there, who demand guarantees that they will be safe. They will argue on and find excuses why it's much better to stay inside the harbor. Until, one day, something unexpected happens and they realize that the harbor isn't so safe, after all ;)

 

[edgitarra]

I also read your text and it was a good piece. But to contradict myself in an older post(few weeks ago) , I will mention Gurdjieff -

In properly organized groups no faith is required; what is required is simply a little trust and even that only for a little while, for the sooner a man begins to verify all he hears the better it is for him.

Unfortunately I still fail at this. That "little trust" is still something I have to work on understanding.

 

[Leòmhann]

Every minute of every day, the universe sits across the dance floor, making eyes at us in the hopes that we will ask it to dance. Do we declare that we first must have proof that the universe is real and safe, or do we just shut up and dance, and see what happens?

(shutting up and dancing here :) )

Great points! Well done, Mr Scott!!!

 

[Eulenspiegel]

Been thinking about this lately, so I figured I might as well share it FWIW.

Traditionally, proof is the realm of the scientific community and is much lauded, and faith is the realm of religion and therefore more frequently poo-pooed.

...

Scientists have faith in the scientific method, or they believe in it, or some might say they follow the scientific method. Sounds kind of like following a religion, doesn't it?

If I don't have faith in myself, I can't accomplish anything. I will just sit on the couch like a lump and lament my horrible lot in life.

I propose that almost everything we think and do depends on faith, and not on proof. It is a rather unusual human quality, way of being, or whatever it is.

...

Science and proof amount to "faith in rules". Those rules are supposedly inviolable, and can never change. Except that sometimes, they do change! Even logic can turn out to be illogical. The world is not a binary computer filled with 1's and 0's, but dang! We sure do try to make it that way...

Proof only offers temporary emotional comfort, the belief that we have things under control. Faith is wild and open and uncertain, and the doorway to infinite possibilities. Faith is less comfy in the short term, but more comfy in the long term. Sometimes, it's downright scary!!
...

So, it sure seems to me that faith is one of the most powerful forces out there! To know is to love, as they say, but would you have even started to seek that knowledge without some kind of faith?

Every minute of every day, the universe sits across the dance floor, making eyes at us in the hopes that we will ask it to dance. Do we declare that we first must have proof that the universe is real and safe, or do we just shut up and dance, and see what happens?

I think you have to keep in mind when and how the scientific method came about in "modern times". The mere existence of words like "Quacksalber"(quacksalver) in German(it's usually translated as charlatan these days) suggests that people were either intentionally or unintentionally poisoned or not cured by people that charged money for their medical services.

Now I can see how during the late Middle Ages, the emergence of the scientific method found many fans, and the demand for proof came along with it. If someone can show they can rather reliably treat a known disease with something that has been "proven" to work, then they will be more popular than those that rely on faith based healing.

Pure reliance on proof may lead to a mechanical view of things though. Go to a doctor these days and they'll often not know what to do if the database has no answers for what pill to take. It assumes that "problem/illness x" is cured by "answer/treatment y".

Faith may come into play if one assumes that the universe may be vastly more complex than how it is portrayed in elementary school. Current science allows us to predict some things rather well and some illnesses can be reliably cured but we struggle when we encounter phenomenons that have a large amount of factors to them. And there may be some that may be impossible to fully understand with our current human capabilities. Both science and religion have faith in their own views and methods to try to understand the unknown.

However, I've noticed that most people I've met just use "science" as temporary emotional comfort, as you say. In some cases, it is used to make the scary somewhat less scary. But when it comes to things that aren't that well researched or may be impossible to research like death and possible afterlives, it doesn't remove that emotional insecurity, and as such it is no surprise that some atheists suddenly become religious when they are confronted with their own mortality.

I've also noticed an interesting difference between purely science driven people and religious people like pastors I've met. The Richard Dawkins type of people are rarely happy with themselves and usually end up rather grumpy and overly focused on their intellectual center. They end up stuck in their head, so to say. I rarely feel warmth emanating from them.

The faith based people, on the other hand, just seem so much more human and loveable. I find that charisma often comes with faith! The kind of intense emotions that faith/religion can produce are simply absent in intellectual debates. People tend to flock to those with faith.

Yet these could be combined. After all, scientific curiosity, intuition and faith can go together.

 

[Scottie]

I also read your text and it was a good piece. But to contradict myself in an older post(few weeks ago) , I will mention Gurdjieff -

In properly organized groups no faith is required; what is required is simply a little trust and even that only for a little while, for the sooner a man begins to verify all he hears the better it is for him.

Well, I don't know the context of the quote, and I certainly don't know exactly what G meant because I'm not him. But I can say that I personally don't always agree with some of the details of G's teachings. Overall, I really like the concept and application of the "Work". He was a pretty sharp dude. But sometimes his precise methods and words seem a bit "off" to me... Too "cold and mechanical", and not enough warmth and caring. But maybe that's just me.

Unfortunately I still fail at this. That "little trust" is still something I have to work on understanding.

Trusting is not easy. I should know! :P

 

[Konstantin]

Just some thoughts that came to my mind about this.
At first when i hear the word faith it reminds me of something connected with religion, and in that case it sounds very repulsive to me.
If i think a little deeply then faith is the something with what we must start.
For example.
All of us here are trying to do the work, to work on themselves.We are networking , reading books, web pages, experiment and all other things and if we want that to work we must have a faith in that process.Sometimes we will succeed , a lot of times we will fail. We cant get a definitive proof that, yes this is the right way to improve yourself and then we can make a simple manual for that , and everybody will follow it. No, its a complex process and if an individual wants to follow that way he must come with an open mind and have a faith in the process and see how will their journey look like . Something that was good for someone maybe will not be so good for somebody else, so there can not be a definite groove. But important thing in this process is to be objective , start with an open mind without any assumptions and have a faith in that process.

Like Scottie said if somebody tell you the sky is blue, then you can see it for yourself that it really is, but that is only our human perspective. If some other creature is looking at it then they maybe cant see the blue light spectar and for them it will have a different color. So what is the proof now for the color of the sky? Telling that creature that sky is blue is violating its free will because he see the sky in different color. For him sky is not blue.

In this work we all follow and research some ways, some protocols that were invented and tried by some people before us. They get the basic idea and made that protocols like the iodine protocol or Anti-parasitic protocols or anything else from someone before them or by observing and researching the problem and then trying to find a solution for it by having faith in their methods. But its not a final recipe. Its just a guideline , just a signs by the bumpy road that can show us just the direction, not to take us to the final destination. Somebody will need to add something more to it, somebody will have to remove of modify something. So we must have a faith following that road. But If we look from the other side we are following that signs because we have a proof that its effective treatment.

So little "proofs" or signs along the road are good thing to keep us on the right way.
But if you dont have the faith in that road, in your journey, then you will maybe miss that signs too.

 

[Buddy]

I've also noticed an interesting difference between purely science driven people and religious people like pastors I've met. The Richard Dawkins type of people are rarely happy with themselves and usually end up rather grumpy and overly focused on their intellectual center. They end up stuck in their head, so to say. I rarely feel warmth emanating from them.

Maybe "Dawkins type of people" should be told it's important to use "analysis" with care and some people do not. Analysis is like a knife that can carve up reality according to apparent boundaries so that we can more clearly see what it's made of. People with very sharp minds have a super sharp carving knife and can, for a metaphorical example, kill the life in a frog on a dissecting table while looking for the source of its life. Things that make you go hmmmm.

The faith based people, on the other hand, just seem so much more human and loveable. I find that charisma often comes with faith! The kind of intense emotions that faith/religion can produce are simply absent in intellectual debates. People tend to flock to those with faith.

Yeah, people like to dance. :)

Yet these could be combined. After all, scientific curiosity, intuition and faith can go together.

They're combined quite well in the The Wave, for example.


How's this for a new syllogism: Shut up and dance. Just shut up and dance. Therefore, shut up and keep dancing. Today, Aristotle would agree and laugh along with us, I think.

 

[loreta]

Every minute of every day, the universe sits across the dance floor, making eyes at us in the hopes that we will ask it to dance. Do we declare that we first must have proof that the universe is real and safe, or do we just shut up and dance, and see what happens?

(shutting up and dancing here :) )

Great points! Well done, Mr Scott!!!

Aaah, very beautiful Mr. Scottie. I like what you say.

I will dance with you and the others. Dancing is following the movement of this magnificent world. eh, this planet is dancing also, sometimes she is dancing jazz, other times reggae, lately she is dancing heavy metal in some places, disco in others, punk is some places, valse also... ;)

The word faith is not a religious word for me because I am not a religious person. It is a spiritual word, because I am a spiritual person. So words have a sense from each person. Faith is a beautiful word, like Grace, it is a word that is related to my soul, this energy that makes me dance even if it is hard to dance sometimes, even if it seems crazy to dance at some moments. Maybe faith is the movement that keep you walking in a certain way, looking and searching, faith is a breath, an inspiration, a yes to oneself for the better. Having this faith makes you in contact with yourself and makes you open your heart and this is the only way to understand life inside you as outside you. If you have faith, this energy that makes you dance, you will see beauty in you as beauty outside, you will see darkness inside you as darkness outside. But faith is love. And I think that without faith... without faith we are dead. Even my dog have faith, faith in me, in the love that united us. So faith is also union.

 

[John G]

So little "proofs" or signs along the road are good thing to keep us on the right way.
But if you dont have the faith in that road, in your journey, then you will maybe miss that signs too.

Yeah at some point you have to have faith kind of even "know" you are on a road to the future that you were meant to be on. Via abduction, the scientific method is great for forming ideas to work on, but "proof" can be quite little for quite some time in lots of areas. You also use the scientific method via citing sources and doing simulations/experiments, etc. But in the Lynne Mctaggart vs James Randi sense, I don't think you want to be a Randi-like prover if your goal is to ride a Mctaggart-like field towards the future (or take a Nagel-like teleological trip or get non-linearly pulled via Ark's conformal gravity or however other little proof way you want to phrase it). A co-linear group with a psychic shield might seem like a bunch of arse-kissers if you don't "see" there's a road to the future there.

 

[David]

Hmmm...

Shut up + Dance = standing wave (or a little faith)

shut up – standing wave = - Dance

Dance – standing wave = - shut up

Standing wave x universe = ‘open’ -dance or -Shut up x universe = ‘no dice’

OMG! I need to get out more... and find proof... :P

 

[Ollie]

Thank you Scottie for your starting post, very well put.

I also read your text and it was a good piece. But to contradict myself in an older post(few weeks ago) , I will mention Gurdjieff -

In properly organized groups no faith is required; what is required is simply a little trust and even that only for a little while, for the sooner a man begins to verify all he hears the better it is for him.

Unfortunately I still fail at this. That "little trust" is still something I have to work on understanding.

As for the 'little trust' still being something that you have to work on, I was given some good advice recently - 'Fake it until you make it'. And it works!

I think that the important part of Gurdjieff's 'quote' is that of verifying all that he hears ... . Then the little trust required (you may want to start faking it :)) to start with may grow within, through your own work, into trusting a lot more. Take nothing for granted, prove it for yourself.

And, as Scottie says Trusting is not easy. I should know.

Likewise. :)

 

[treesparrow]

Every minute of every day, the universe sits across the dance floor, making eyes at us in the hopes that we will ask it to dance. Do we declare that we first must have proof that the universe is real and safe, or do we just shut up and dance, and see what happens?

Not forgetting to fully commit to the activity. :) Throw out half-hearted gestures, avoid the 1970's 'indifferent shuffle' or (god forbid) dancing-like-your-dad.

In the words of the singer Chris Montez.... Let's Dance!!!!

Hey baby won't you take a chance?
Say that you'll let me have this dance

Maybe as exemplified here? :D

http://<iframe width="420" height="...Wc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[RedFox]

Well said Scottie.

I think faith is a little like a river. On one side there is a river bank of absurd reductionism (finding 100% tangable proof for everything), and the other is all shades of blindness (unquestioning obedience, following what feels good and avoiding what feels bad etc).
I guess then it's kayaking - learning to navigate the river without getting stuck on either side. The faith perhaps comes with enough practice of avoiding hitting either side, and realizing the natural flow of the river will carry you forwards.

So to extend the ship leaving harbour analogy, the network is a raft of kayaks all linked together. If we all navigate by the same principle, we become a collective ocean sailing vessel through teamwork and looking out for each other. :)

Compassion is essential to our evolution as a species

[..]
While compassion is defined a number of ways, the genuine crux of it is the concern we have for others' struggles and suffering coupled with the desire to lend help or support in some regard. Rather than the "vicarious" emotional experience of another's difficulties (sympathy or empathy, depending on who you talk to) or the actions we take in response to our concern for another's situation (altruism), compassion records us more in the role of supportive witness—and perhaps motivated actor on another's behalf. While today we consider compassion one of the most esteemed human traits, what were its origins? Is this really a product of evolutionary forces rather than cultural response? How could it have grown out of the rough and tough, survival-of-the-fittest world of Grok's day?

The answer may be something of both nature and nurture, but make no mistake. The roots of compassion are pure genetic instinct even if modern society extends the context for compassionate exchange. Experts associate the development of compassion with a wide variety of key social dimensions within expanding human social organization. They note that compassion stands as its own emotion, differentiated from easily related feelings like sadness or even love.

Compassion can be both a trigger for and a response to our care-taking instincts—with obvious evolutionary benefits. When we feel concern for others' well-being, particularly in the face of what we construe to be "undeserved suffering" or vulnerability, compassion moves us to display the emotional and behavioral responses of bonding, of claiming that person for our care, collaboration, kinship and/or protection.
[..]

On that note, some quotes I shared on Facebook this last month seem appropriate:

"Even if I knew that tommorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree." - Martin Luther

"To love someone is to learn the song in their heart and sing it to them when they have forgotten it."

"I wish I could show you when you are lonely or in darkness the astonishing light of your being." - Hafiz of Persia

 

[Deleted member 11729]

Scottie thank you! such a nice explanation what is so strong and more stable in faith than in proof ..

Scientists have faith in the scientific method, or they believe in it, or some might say they follow the scientific method. Sounds kind of like following a religion, doesn't it?

few years ago I meet in Japan, one of the top 50 scientist in the world, who work on researching use of sun energy from space ... and he said that what got him started to do his research, was Tesla's fait in his work and benefit for humanity of his work! Not patents, not formulas, nothing ... he just explained to us, how he was one day on a university, while he was reading Tesla autobiography, he just clicked, and realized that without that strong faith in his ideas, Tesla will never achieve anything, as no one literary understood most of the things he discovered at his time ... so yes such a great analogy with science, as without fait nothing will never grow ... but fait come out of hard work, research, thinking, communicating ... it is not something that just fall from the sky!

If I don't have faith in myself, I can't accomplish anything. I will just sit on the couch like a lump and lament my horrible lot in life.

So true! ... I meet so many talented and beautiful people, who are so damaged by narcissistic parents, that they are incapable to see the value in themselves and to have fait in their talents, no meter how they are accepted and praised in professional circles ... it is so sad when you see how their incredible talent and work can move many to have faith, but not them ...

I propose that almost everything we think and do depends on faith, and not on proof. It is a rather unusual human quality, way of being, or whatever it is.

We speak of learning to trust people again in order to improve relationships with others, and that this involves an emotional risk to ourselves. We might get hurt again, but we try anyway. Sounds like faith to me. Love is the same. You can't love someone if you don't have faith in yourself and the other person.

Proof only offers temporary emotional comfort, the belief that we have things under control. Faith is wild and open and uncertain, and the doorway to infinite possibilities. Faith is less comfy in the short term, but more comfy in the long term. Sometimes, it's downright scary!!

Thank you for this! You just helped me in one personal dilemma, that is a subject for a whole new thread ... so here shortly - THANK YOU!

Having faith can mean you believe in something, or it can mean you "don't believe in anything" but you're certain you'll get there eventually - or die trying.

So, it sure seems to me that faith is one of the most powerful forces out there!

Every minute of every day, the universe sits across the dance floor, making eyes at us in the hopes that we will ask it to dance. Do we declare that we first must have proof that the universe is real and safe, or do we just shut up and dance, and see what happens?

yea so let's dance with the universe :)