Faith vs Proof

[Joe]

I also read your text and it was a good piece. But to contradict myself in an older post(few weeks ago) , I will mention Gurdjieff -

In properly organized groups no faith is required; what is required is simply a little trust and even that only for a little while, for the sooner a man begins to verify all he hears the better it is for him.

Unfortunately I still fail at this. That "little trust" is still something I have to work on understanding.

Note that G said "in properly organized groups". He was also referring to the faith in the group itself and its aims. He was not talking about that which is unknowable (for certain) by 3D humans, which is mostly what Scottie was referring to.

 

[sToRmR1dR]

Every minute of every day, the universe sits across the dance floor, making eyes at us in the hopes that we will ask it to dance. Do we declare that we first must have proof that the universe is real and safe, or do we just shut up and dance, and see what happens?

Just shut up,dance,"have faith and joy to the world". ;D

 

[T.C.]

Whenever I think of faith, I think of fidelity, from the Latin "Fides" meaning trust, faith, confidence, reliance, credence, belief. (source)

And the word that most links to for me is con-fidence; i.e., "with faith, with trust."

When looking at how faith leads to action and interaction, when the baby cries out for food or affection and receives it, then it acquires faith - faith that when it Needs, the mother will respond, which ultimately builds the faith in the adult that the Universe is a nurturing place and that we can act with confidence and trust in the Universe to respond in kind.

But look at how a lack of faith affects motivation. If the baby cries out and the mother does not respond, the baby loses faith in the mother responding - loses trust - and after repeated experiences of this, the baby stops crying; the baby stops acting.

I'm reminded of Tolstoy's "A Confession". Where he kind of loses faith and ends up with the burning and unanswerable question of WHY - why bother doing anything. In the end, he comes to an image/concept: Imagine a homeless person is approached by someone who invites them into their home or a factory and offers them food and shelter, and all the homeless person has to do is just keep on turning a lever round and round in return. Wouldn't it be ludicrous for the homeless person to then start philosophising on the idea of turning the handle and start questioning why should they bother?

Faith and trust in our actions having a beneficial effect on us and our environment. I think one of the biggest effects finding Laura's work had on me was letting me in the 'secret' that we can choose and we can affect change. People go through their lives not knowing that they have a choice in what happens to them and they have a say in their lives; they just go along with everything that happens to them like a leaf being blown around by the wind.

So for me, faith comes from trying something and getting a result - positive or negative. If I want to walk from here to over there, I have faith that the ground will support me because that's what I've experienced, tried and tested and come to an understanding of. It's that faith is that 'confirmation' Gurdjieff talked about, but in the sense of a positive feedback loop; that we try something, it builds trust and faith so we try something more and that builds more faith and trust, etc. But looking at that, we do need the faith to try in beginning, and I guess that comes from being nurtured as a baby.

And who knows: maybe whenever we interact with the Universe, perform an action and get a result, the faith we acquire may even be physical - has weight to it - which then imbues us with motivation, trust, belief (yes, I used the B word) in ourselves and the Universe.

 

[Joe]

Very well said Scottie, and timely too! When I think about the idea of faith, it is inseparable from the idea of trust. Maybe they're just synonyms. Most of people's problems with trust, I think, come from their interactions with other people, who have at some point betrayed their trust, or let them down and taught them that trusting is dangerous. Dangerous because to trust someone is to open yourself in some way to them, to make yourself vulnerable. When you do that, and the other person does not see or appreciate what you have done, they don't do what you expect them to do, and your feelings get hurt in some way.

But in many cases, this trusting of others we engage in includes at least a bit (and sometimes a lot) of projection on our part onto the other person. We imagine that the person means something by what they say, when they didn't mean that. Or we don't take all the factors about the other person into consideration and trust them when we should not. So learning and knowing a lot about ourselves and other people can protect us from the hurt that arises from trusting when we should not.

Of course, we don't just trust people, we place our trust in things too. We trust our car, for example, to always start. But when it doesn't, we don't feel hurt as we do when people let us down (frustrated yes, but not hurt). After all, the car doesn't intentionally not start to hurt us, and most likely it is our own fault because we didn't maintain it properly. With people though, we expect more because we invest more in people, we invest our feelings.

And maybe that's the important point, that when we extend trust to someone, we are looking for someone who values us enough to see, recognize, understand and care for our feelings, for who we are as a person. That's why a "betrayal" of trust can hurt so much, because it feels like a rejection of us, of our most personal feelings, of who (or part of who) we understand ourselves to be. So when we extent trust, we are actually looking for a validation of, respect and love for who we as human beings.

But very often trust can be a one-sided affair. We go on the hunt for this validation, but how much have we given to others in that respect? If we want to be valued, respected and loved as human beings, how much work have we done to engender that value, respect and love in others FOR us? Or is it a case where we expect to have that love and respect without doing anything to deserve it? "But Wait!" I hear you say, "everyone deserves love and respect!" Sure they do, just like everyone else. So when the entire population is going around trying to get (or demanding) this love and respect from others, how is anyone going to get when there not givers?

So it seems to me that the first step in feeling like we can trust others (i.e. get love and validation from others) is to make ourselves trustworthy people and we do that by being loving towards others and validating them. For sure, it takes strength and courage to do this, but it is the best way to get what we need. And interestingly, as part of this process of extending love and validation to others, we become stronger people, we find resources we didn't know we had, which ends up meaning that we don't need or demand that others be so impeccably (by our needy standards) trustworthy i.e. understand, validate and love us.

In addition, by giving to others in this way, we may come to realize or know ourselves as fundamentally trustworthy, valuable and lovable people, which is kind of what we'd been looking for from others our whole lives.

 

[Al Today]

For grins and giggles, here is a quick old story I used to tell on the pulpit...

I needed to go shopping to get some milk. I was told that milk came from cows and can be bought at the store. So I drove to the store. I walked into the store. I have never been within that store before and I did not know where to find the milk. Was the milk really there? Even though I went to the store, inside the store I knew not where to go and was seeking milk. I saw someone who worked there and asked them, Do you know where I can find some milk? They pointed over to the far right corner and said over there, on the back wall, is a cooler full of milk. I then began to be more sure that I could find milk there. I had faith that the milk was over there. I walked, I did the work to seek that milk. I had faith that I could find that milk. And you know what? After walking back to the far corner wall, I did find that cooler, full of milk. Containers of all shapes and sizes, and flavors. Full of milk. I found proof that the milk was there. I then knew the milk...

 

[Deleted member 11729]

reflecting on love and trust and faith ... what is for me the most devastating experience is the realization that there are people out there, that you love ( not romantic love or so, but love as it is ) and no meter how much you give, how much you understand their limits to give back, how much you see what is your projection or reality of them , but there is always that big wall in between, and they will never receive anything as they are simply incapable for that, as they are probably some kind of psychopaths .... I don't know ... and you can even have faith in that people on certain level and tasks, if they are not attacking you directly, but for me that is the most painful feeling of seeing that incapability of receiving that at the same time makes you feel incapable of giving, what can be devastating if you will not manage to get out of that trap ... or maybe I am looping in some lost space where faith for me was kind of lost for some time? ... and now it is getting back fresh, but still a bit shy and fragile ... but this crack in faith gave me another more profound ability to reflect and look other people in a more objective relation with more understanding of their personality and less projections of my expectations, what really can bring back faith in general, as level of disappointment will be less hurting, as it will motivate me to look first did I project something, so that I can eliminate projections to see more objectively did that person had intentions to let me down, or is it just my feeling out of projections and wrong understanding ...

 

[Windmill knight]

For grins and giggles, here is a quick old story I used to tell on the pulpit...

I needed to go shopping to get some milk. I was told that milk came from cows and can be bought at the store. So I drove to the store. I walked into the store. I have never been within that store before and I did not know where to find the milk. Was the milk really there? Even though I went to the store, inside the store I knew not where to go and was seeking milk. I saw someone who worked there and asked them, Do you know where I can find some milk? They pointed over to the far right corner and said over there, on the back wall, is a cooler full of milk. I then began to be more sure that I could find milk there. I had faith that the milk was over there. I walked, I did the work to seek that milk. I had faith that I could find that milk. And you know what? After walking back to the far corner wall, I did find that cooler, full of milk. Containers of all shapes and sizes, and flavors. Full of milk. I found proof that the milk was there. I then knew the milk...

I like that story. :) It preserves the sense of adventure that I believe faith should have. You go looking for milk, and while you are after it you are not certain of the outcome. Until you get there. Thus, you are 'placing a bet' on the probability that milk is real. When instead of milk we are after the meaning of life, then you are 'placing an existential bet' on a certain path. How exciting!

Faith is one of the most creative things there are, because it pushes forward in spite of not having anything for granted. It is its own engine, and I would say it is closer to courage (or maybe it is essentially it?) than belief. Understood this way, it has nothing to do with dogma, quite the opposite!

 

[Mal7]

1 Corinthians 13 anyone?

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

- _http://biblehub.com/niv/1_corinthians/13.htm (verse numbers removed.)

 

[whitecoast]

I also read your text and it was a good piece. But to contradict myself in an older post(few weeks ago) , I will mention Gurdjieff -

In properly organized groups no faith is required; what is required is simply a little trust and even that only for a little while, for the sooner a man begins to verify all he hears the better it is for him.

Unfortunately I still fail at this. That "little trust" is still something I have to work on understanding.

In this quote Gurdjieff was using faith in the context of trusting a given school to a certain extent more than the eyes could immediately verify. In the first way school faith is not required outside faithful imitation. In the second and third way school faith is more important, because people must acknowledge their thinking/feeling are not functioning objectively and surrender that part of them. In the fourth way G tells people not to ever do anything they don't understand, which is why he says trust is required but not faith.

That's different from faith in the universe, or faith in life. G says there can be conscious or mechanical faith, and naturally only the latter is of use. Conscious faith is conscious because, after relating the whole of ourselves (and our centers) to the pursuit of an aim, we surrender and trust that fate/grace/results will manifest in their own time to our highest benefit.

A good friend of mine once said, to paraphrase, that part of having faith in the universe is allowing the universe to have faith in you. By which he meant, the universe itself must trust us. It learns to trust us through our own sincere effort to do or be a certain way that the universe finds beneficial. The more it can count on you and your work, the more willing it is to devote resources to nurturing you.

 

[Ollie]

So it seems to me that the first step in feeling like we can trust others (i.e. get love and validation from others) is to make ourselves trustworthy people and we do that by being loving towards others and validating them. For sure, it takes strength and courage to do this, but it is the best way to get what we need. And interestingly, as part of this process of extending love and validation to others, we become stronger people, we find resources we didn't know we had, which ends up meaning that we don't need or demand that others be so impeccably (by our needy standards) trustworthy i.e. understand, validate and love us.

In addition, by giving to others in this way, we may come to realize or know ourselves as fundamentally trustworthy, valuable and lovable people, which is kind of what we'd been looking for from others our whole lives.

Very well put Joe. I think that hits the nail on the head. It covers love, trust and Faith (strength and courage to journey on the journey) in one (or two! :)) paragraph, and with Proof coming along the way of the journey.

 

[bjorb]

[quote author= Mal7]1 Corinthians 13 anyone?[/quote]

Such a powerful/ beautiful verse. Thanks Mal7 !!

 

[Kisito]

True, faith seems to object to the evidence. Faith seems to be made for one who is confident, so that confidence in himself. The need for evidence is for the person who does not or no longer trust him in it or an outside thing. The evidence, in my view, limited by our own knowledge, therefore, the evidence is often subjective. The proof would be a reflection of our present knowledge, and certainly a spiritual and intellectual development that will evolve differently. Although Thomas puts his hands in the holes of Jesus, this will not be a sign for everyone. But I do not think it is better for a man to live 3D only in faith. Because it is enough that faith is based on lies for it to become blind to the truth. Terrorists have much faith. So it seems appropriate that we observe an alternation between evidence and faith (like breathing). The evidence must help us to trust in faith. But the evidence is not always the "miracle", it is priority the work. For it seems to me that the spiritual work done to develop our intuition and releases the flow of ideas. Thus, it seems that faith and evidence are two sides of the same coin.
Spiritual work develops confidence, faith, and evidence. I think the evidence is faith.
The need for more evidence seems violent, more spiritual change will be violent.
If it can be objectionable to request or require proof, it seems to me that this is preferable to people who never require proof because these people think to know everything.
The symptom of proof, a difficult barrier to pass, according to his knowledge and résisatnce his ego.

 

[caballero reyes]

I'm rereading the wave and the transcriptions I feel very comfortable. When I read those chapters happen to me many important things: I exercise my mind, reminds me of my childhood when I read children stories or fairy tales, moreover, when reading those chapters, makes me relate a number of things and a number people who question things and try to raise awareness and also admire how well some forumitas are expressed and I think Laura is fantastic not only for all that has been written and said in the videos, but that esoteric matters adds something no one had done (or so I think): LINKING DIRECTLY ESOTERICISM WITH THE HEALTH ISSUE, what I consider his greatest achievement, and I do not care if it is or not channeled what he says in his writings, but the important is what remains after reading them.

Subjective issues in people like her are very valuable, because as Protagoras said, "Man is the measure of all things" then apply this to the present topic: If you see the blue sky, then it is blue.
or, in other words what the Cassiopaeans told Laura:
"You literally possess, Within your consciousness profile, all the power That exists Within all of creation!?! Have you absolutely all that exists, ever has, or ever will, Contained Within your mind. All You have to do is learn how to use it, and at that moment, you will literally, literally, be all that is, was, and ever will be !!!!!!!!"
The road is made by walking.
Be objective is another state of being difficult to achieve.
Laura is different without ceasing to be like other people, and the paradoxes are what make progress in life, or in other words, the problem of "faith against evidence" to me just diluted, but I consider important.
There I would like to pursue this matter but my English is poor to express deep thoughts; I'm studying to improve my English, just say it would be interesting that you added to the topic "Faith against test" the concept of Doubt, a word that is very interesting discussion for me, although I am of the people who always try to check / remove doubts.

 

[casper]

Thank Scottie, I think here we need to talk about self-esteem and confidence, very closely related to faith.
Faith or you have it or not, while the self-confidence to be graduated, we can have a greater or lesser extent, depending on the circumstances. To have faith in something or someone is not required merit, and confidence generally is.

IMO confidence can be lost, but faith is not because faith depends on us and not on others, while the trust generally inversely. For the trust we need some proof or experience, and for the faith is not. Confidence has to be somewhat merit, if only in that we know well, but faith does not need to earn, to have faith in the other means generally believe that they will always act according to conscience, even if you do not have any evidence to justify this belief, while confidence in the other usually means trust them because of their character, ability ...

An interesting link that talks about the difference between faith and trust:
http://christianity.yoexpert.com/christianity-general/what-is-the-difference-between-faith-and-trust-20479.html

I read the book "To have or to be" in which the author Erich Fromm says:
Quote: "The mode of being, faith is not primarily the belief in an idea, but the inner orientation, faith is a virtue which we carry in ourselves and by which we orient ourselves in life."

John Lennon said: "I believe in everything until it proves incorrect. So I believe in fairies, the myths and dragons. It all exists, even if it is only in our mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares are not as real as what is here and now? "



Faith can determine our destiny,recall childhood :), link:
https://amenaskhan.wordpress.com/2010/10/17/go-find-your-identity-you-may-be-an-eagle-acting-like-a-chicken/

 

[Scottie]

But I do not think it is better for a man to live 3D only in faith. Because it is enough that faith is based on lies for it to become blind to the truth. Terrorists have much faith. So it seems appropriate that we observe an alternation between evidence and faith (like breathing).

I think that probably, this idea of faith is like most things: it depends!

A terrorist may have faith that he's doing the right thing, but then that's not what I would call faith as I'm thinking of it. It's more like blind, fanatical belief that causing others pain and misery is going to fix everything. Of course, that's not always how a terrorist would view it, because "the other" is less than human. They might think it's okay or even merciful to slaughter the infidels, because they're doing us a favor. That may be some kind of faith, but it's faith in destruction and disintegration instead of creation.

Or, take anger... Righteous anger is a powerful thing if it's channeled properly. But then there are also other kinds of anger based on past hurts, our own inability to deal with other emotions, and so on. It depends. As the saying goes, even Jesus got pissed off sometimes!

I guess the way I'm looking at it (right now anyway) is that faith is far better if it's creative instead of destructive.

One might say that psychopaths inspire "faith" in others. People become hoodwinked, they believe all kinds of things, they follow the psycho because they want stuff for themselves like the psycho does. In a sense, psychos are almost like "dark preachers", for lack of a better term.

On the other hand, when I think of faith, I think of something totally different. It doesn't have or give all the answers, but it drives us to find them. It doesn't want us to believe anything and everything just to be comfortable. It's okay with, "I don't know" or "Oops! I was wrong". It doesn't need to control everything, because it knows that we will not implode or disappear if we think about what other people need before we think about what we need. It likes evidence that something is true, but it also realizes that things change, that "always in motion is the future", and it reminds us that there are infinite possibilities. Faith doesn't need to convert other people to "my" beliefs. Instead, it just leads by example.

IOW, by default, when we think of faith, we automatically think of the destructive version. But, I think there is a creative version. And most of the time, I think we forget that we have a choice to make in this respect - often because we're not even aware of the difference, or that we can even choose in the first place.

I think this is once of the reasons for the New Age movement. Give people religion, and then give them scandal and disillusionment. Then, offer them the New Age as an alternative. But then be sure to give them disillusionment there, too. Eventually, people will have faith in nothing but materialism. Everyone will just throw their hands up in the air and ask, "What's the point?!"

Many people I suspect have this "creative faith" very strongly inside them, but they forget it's there. It's so easy for it to be squashed down and mushed into some corner of our being, mostly because this world is not exactly a happy friendly theme park. Aside from dissociation, I think the reason why things like Disney World and video games are so popular is because it reminds us of who we are not, and of what we don't have. And we bathe in it! We soak it up! It never occurs to us to actually try to make ourselves and thereby the world a better place. Instead, we console ourselves temporarily, over and over, with poor facsimiles of what could be. We accept SMS and Twitter and Facebook Socialization instead of the real thing. And then we wonder why a majority of us need prescription meds just to cope with life!

Maybe the trick is to find this kind of faith again inside ourselves - and help others to find it as well. Because if this "force" is what drove us to be here and do what we do against crazy odds, then it is a force that could do much more than just move mountains. It's so powerful that it even puts Russia's S-500's and electronic countermeasure systems to shame!