Finding Faith?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bar Kochba
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Fascinating thread!

Don't know too much about faith outside of it appears to be a verb, and verbs are cumbersome to describe ;D

FWIW, I have noticed that when faced with an unpleasant situation that may be getting me down it helps me to consider that what I may be experiencing is a lack of faith that what is happening is exactly what is needed to be learned right now, regardless of how confusing or frightening it may be. Remembering this seems to assist in getting past mechanical reactions and looking instead for potential meaning that can lead to learning instead of reactionary looping fueled by self importance.

Maybe this is a part of what faith can mean, applied knowledge learned through observation that ALL is lessons and remembering that the universe is continually showing itself what it needs to learn at the time? This seems like it may be a possible application of faith during the day to day, although full of devils and details. Seems many try to pin faith onto things...which brings this to mind:

Ana said:
I would say belief (closed flow) is the opposite of faith (open flow).

When considering this question:

luke wilson said:
How does one find FAITH? Well i'd say one doesnt find Faith, Faith finds the person....

Maybe they meet each other half way?
 
luke wilson said:
You know when the C's say so confidently that the lizzies will fail. I cant remember the exact script but that's something that stood out for me when I was reading that transcript. What they said was something along the lines 'funnily enough this will fail as well' Then laura asked how they can be so sure, then they proceded to say they could see everything objectively from 6D whilst the lizzies could only see subjectively. Right, from my point of view, you look at the world right now and I mean, the lizzies are winning and I just dont see how they can-not win this fight given that time is running out and the wave is fast approaching. They have out-thought and out-manouvred humanity - for pits sake, they abduct people at will from what I am reading. They hold the high ground. So how are they going to fail??? I mean is some miracle going to happen?? So anyways, inorder for me to believe what the C's are saying in this context I must have FAITH which in this case goes against what I am seeing.

I believe this is the quote you are referring to. It is also on this page if you're interested and or haven't seen it yet.

Q: (L) Well, since there is so many of us here, why don't they just move in and take over?
A: That is their intention. That has been their intention for quite some time. They have been traveling back and forth through time as you know it, to set things up so that they can absorb a maximum amount of negative energy with the transference from third level to fourth level that this planet is going to experience, in the hopes that they can overtake you on the fourth level and thereby accomplish several things. 1: retaining their race as a viable species; 2: increasing their numbers; 3: increasing their power; 4: expanding their race throughout the realm of fourth density. To do all of this they have been interfering with events for what you would measure on your calendar as approximately 74 thousand years. And they have been doing so in a completely still state of space time traveling backward and forward at will during this work. Interestingly enough, though, all of this will fail.
Q: (L) How can you be so sure it will fail?
A: Because we see it. We are able to see all, not just what we want to see. Their failing is that they see only what they want to see. In other words, it's the highest manifestation possible of that which you would refer to as wishful thinking. And, wishful thinking represented on the fourth level of density becomes reality for that level. You know how you wishfully think? Well, it isn't quite reality for you because you are on the third level, but if you are on the fourth level and you were to perform the same function, it would indeed be your awareness of reality. Therefore they cannot see what we can see since we serve others as opposed to self, and since we are on sixth level, we can see all that is at all points as is, not as we would want it to be.

My understanding of this is that because STS can only see what they want - subjectively. When one can only see what they want, this limits all possibilities in two ways. The first is that it taken for granted what others will do. STS thinks that people will react in the same way they do in any given situation. This is an illusion. The second affects their (STS) actions. Because they are in a subjective state of "mind", they limit themselves in what they can do, meaning how they handle situations.

Think of a situation where someone has attempted to manipulate the behavior of someone else. In that situation, there is wishful thinking that occurs (the person hopes that the one they are trying to manipulate will act in the way they want them to). Even if the manipulated person chooses to be controlled, there are many variables that may intervene at any given moment (they may run into someone who changes their mind, they may read something that upsets the plan, they may think about what is going on and change their mind). The person attempting to manipulate doesn't want to/cannot see these possibilities because they are so focused on getting what they want.

By it's very nature, subjectivity cannot place itself in another's shoes.

luke wilson said:
So what is FAITH then??? Hmm, very interesting question. I see faith as something that well, over-rides intellect/the thinking process imposed on us specifically. I am not sure about emotions. Usually FAITH seems to go well with emotions/feelings - I dont know the difference between emotions and feelings except that emotions give rise to feelings. Anyways, so you have faith and you feel right about your faith but your mind is abit unsure but nonetheless you start on your journey down this path and FAITH is essentially guiding you as your mind lets say cannot see behind the veil that Faith is attempting to get you through. This is how I see Faith. It's almost something exotic because it just defies belief/logic but when you reach certain points in your journey maybe you gain abit of understanding that hint at your FAITH being right, or rather they justify your faith. Maybe BLIND FAITH is when after many experiences contradicting ones original faith, one still persists with this particular faith regardless of any objectivity whatsoever. Maybe this particular FAITH is not the one being referred to here(on this thread) but nonetheless it's an imitator of the Faith being talked about here and sometimes maybe people cannot tell the difference between the 2.

How does one find FAITH? Well i'd say one doesnt find Faith, Faith finds the person....

A few years ago, I thought I lost my faith. Actually, this happened twice now that I think about it. Faith in God or any universal force that was benevolent. This happened when I was experiencing continuous high strangeness. At that point, I had tried every way possible to see the good in the situation. At the time, I really wasn't sure if these experiences would end up killing me.

Now this part is going to sound like one of those religious testimonials, but bear with me. :) It was at those times that I lost what I called faith (or a better way of thinking about it would be that I let go of my expectations of what I thought should happen), that cleared the way for something different to happen.

In one of the situations I refer to above regarding the high strangeness, I decided to travel. My only intention at the time was to gain perspective. What perspective I would gain was unknown to me. The point is that I made the choice to be open to all possibilities as I felt I had nothing to lose. This allowed the entry of grace. This gave me the opportunity to learn (again) that the universe was not this horrible place. It just was.

So I don't know that I would say that I found faith or that faith found me, but rather that it was always waiting there for me. While it is there, we at the same time must learn to see it. At the same time that we are looking for it, we must remain open to all possibilities that it can present itself.

This doesn't mean that we will never have doubts. In fact, I think we need doubt in order to see faith if that makes sense. It is doubting (what we believe to be true) that opens the way for grace to step in. When we see this dynamic occur over and over again in our lives (and see that we are safely held in the palms of the universes hands) that we then start to trust which strengthens faith. Both in ourselves (to triumph over difficulty) and in the universe (that it holds our hand no matter how far we fall).
 
This doesn't mean that we will never have doubts. In fact, I think we need doubt in order to see faith if that makes sense. It is doubting (what we believe to be true) that opens the way for grace to step in. When we see this dynamic occur over and over again in our lives (and see that we are safely held in the palms of the universes hands) that we then start to trust which strengthens faith. Both in ourselves (to triumph over difficulty) and in the universe (that it holds our hand no matter how far we fall).

In my own life, I find that faith is a delicate thing. This is because, as someone said, it is not a belief and so doubt seems to accompany faith. Inorder to eradicate the 'doubt' element of it, I transformed my faith into belief - closed flow as was mentioned before(this is because doubt can be abit taxing, but I did this as a natural unconscious reaction to get away from this emotional drain that I believed to be doubt). This was a bad idea because my life did what I can only refer to as a tailspin. At the time, without this knowledge of Faith (open flow) and Belief (closed flow) I pretty much had no idea what was happening and I suffered as a result, surprisingly my life stopped going into a tail spin when after alot of suffering I transformed my belief back into faith again without even knowing that this is what I did. I have always wondered why things got better, why are things getting better?? Now i think I know why!!! It is weird though, doubt is always there. I find living life with doubt as an ever-present companion takes abit of getting used to. It also puts the whole plan for a specific future thing into disrepute... It's amazing how such experiences can affect someone, I thought I wanted a certain future, now I know I dont know what I want in the future - I only know of a certain feeling be it a faint feeling that I want to get to. How can someone live life that way - weird. I hear people everyday say, I want this, I want that and see them work so hard for what they want. Some get what they want and some dont. I personally know for me, it's best to keep my mouth shut, keep my head down and lead a silent life towards an unknown future as I have zero idea about what it holds for me - only certain feelings, I can only describe it as a nice comfortable feeling. I feel good, not tormented and thus I take this as a good sign. What makes it an even better sign, is when the torment does come, it like gets automatically turned into fuel, so it's like it doesnt really make someone suffer like they used to. Awesome and that is how I got mr depression outta my life but tbh it's still early days since I realized i am standing on new foundations, I haven't yet ran into any really testing experiences that will prove to me once and for all that yes indeed, this are strong foundations to set oneself upon. Only time will tell.

(and see that we are safely held in the palms of the universes hands)

This for me is very comforting. But then again, one cant dwell to much in the comfort as oh wait, wait, here is our friend mr doubt. If I belief I am held safely in the palms of the universes hand, then whoopsy daisy off the palms go... Weird, faith and belief and how they can affect someones life.

You know that saying, Faith can move mountains? What does it exactly mean? I used to think that by Faith moving mountains, one must have had a really strong belief that the mountain will move and thus as a result of this strong 'belief' the mountain moved. But now, seeing that Faith and belief are opposites, then one cannot have faith and belief at the same time. So what does this saying mean as a result of this???
 
luke wilson said:
You know that saying, Faith can move mountains? What does it exactly mean? I used to think that by Faith moving mountains, one must have had a really strong belief that the mountain will move and thus as a result of this strong 'belief' the mountain moved. But now, seeing that Faith and belief are opposites, then one cannot have faith and belief at the same time. So what does this saying mean as a result of this???

Moving mountains might seem something impossible. But if one has faith in oneself, in the Universe and in one's heart's desires to grow and learn, the impossible might become possible.
 
But now, seeing that Faith and belief are opposites, then one cannot have faith and belief at the same time. So what does this saying mean as a result of this???

Are we not being a little quick to set down an agreement that Faith and beleif are opposite.

Simple low grade real world example

I believe my kettle will be good for another few years, I have faith in the water board to provide me with running water. So where is the opposite in this example.

Linguistically their is a difference between Belief and Faith:

Preamble
Belief is a verbal noun. I believe , You believe etc nominalised into a verbal noun; ' a belief'
Faith is different as it is treated as a noun but doesnt come from a verb and is not a physical thing. that is there is no verb equivalent such as I faith, you faith etc

Compare with similar example Hope and Charity.
Hope = verb; I hope , she hopes - verbal noun 'hope'
Charity - like Faith seems to be a straight noun, a thing with seemingly no verbal origin, their is no I charity you charity etc

So we hope and have hope
We do works of charity
We believe and have beliefs
We have faith.

But is there a difference between belief and faith beyond this verbal distinction - are they so far apart to be opposite? I am afraid I cannot see how belief is closed and faith is open. What about Blind Faith leading to ignoring all incoming signals telling one that one is on the wrong road - is that open?
What about an empowering belief such as one should whenever possible help ones neighbour - is that closed? I dont have faith that I should help my neighbour I have beleif. So this is where things get complex

what if I believe I should help my neighbour not because it comes from conscience but because it comes from Faith that a deity rewards those who do good deeds?

So Faith always being the good thing and beleief being closed is not a simple cut and dried issue in my opinion.

But back to Faith and Mountains. So how does faith move mountains? Is it simply because with faith one can continue in a direction without looking for proof of results and continue beyond the point where others may simply give up and metaphorically 'move mountains'?
 
If you believe that you should help your neighbour, then what happens if your neighbour doesnt want your help? What happens to your belief?? What happens to you?? Maybe you force yourself upon your neighbour demanding that it is your right to help them!!

If you have faith that you should help your neighbour, then you are open to the possibility that it's not your prerogative to help your neighbour. If he doesnt want your help, then so be it!

If you believe that kettle will be good for another few years, what happens when it is not?? You invested so much into your belief, there was no way your kettle could break down, but it did, what happens now? Who is to blame. However, if you have faith that your water company will provide you with running water, then when they fail to do so, oh well, it's not like I had closed down that possibility from happening - so maybe you dont feel like you need to go out seeking somekind of retribution from your water company. Bad water company.

So I dont know, to me it seems that Faith is open flow whilst belief is closed flow. But I suppose we are getting into word play and I am not good at that so i surrender.... Maybe other people could shed light on this??
 
luke wilson said:
You know that saying, Faith can move mountains? What does it exactly mean? I used to think that by Faith moving mountains, one must have had a really strong belief that the mountain will move and thus as a result of this strong 'belief' the mountain moved. But now, seeing that Faith and belief are opposites, then one cannot have faith and belief at the same time. So what does this saying mean as a result of this???

Maybe the key to understanding 'mountain moving' is to look at the 'mustard seed'? A small, unified, somewhat solid source of "Potential". Like maybe related to the magnetic center, or an inner 'knowing' that has been confirmed by experience, somehow. Something like that?
 
Hi Luke
If you believe that you should help your neighbour, then what happens if your neighbour doesnt want your help? What happens to your belief?? What happens to you?? Maybe you force yourself upon your neighbour demanding that it is your right to help them!!

no one said anything about forcing anything. Can you believe you should do what you can do help someone and if they dont want your help then gracefully stand back but say you will be there if needed.

If you have faith that you should help your neighbour, then you are open to the possibility that it's not your prerogative to help your neighbour. If he doesnt want your help, then so be it!

I am not familiar with use of faith in this context , that is , having faith that one 'should' do something.

Here's another thought.

If beleif is closed and faith is open can you have Faith without belief? can I have faith that life will give me the right experiences while at the same time believing life will not provide me right experiences? Is Faith not built on beliefs?
 
Hi Bud
Maybe the key to understanding 'mountain moving' is to look at the 'mustard seed'? A small, unified, somewhat solid source of "Potential". Like maybe related to the magnetic center, or an inner 'knowing' that has been confirmed by experience, somehow. Something like that?

I think is in indeed something like that. You just reminded me of something . Have you ever heard the reply Gurdjieff gave to Tchekhovitch (remember the russian who Bennet tells the story about 'rock breaking' T couldnt see where to put the chisel, they had been at it for hours and G appears and places the stone chisel in a couple of places and the stone falls apart) who asked about G's own work on himself. He said something along the lines of - "imagine you have been asked to attend to a pot, you have to keep it at a simmer, you have no idea what is in the pot and you are not allowed to lift the lid, you are not guaranteed anything from the pot you just have to sit and tend maybe for years. How long could you tend ?"


So this re-organises my thoughts now

Pot watching - faith , but would there be belief? I think there would still be an aligned belief at some level that watching the pot must be worth the risk. What do you think?
 
Stevie Argyll said:
Hi Bud
Maybe the key to understanding 'mountain moving' is to look at the 'mustard seed'? A small, unified, somewhat solid source of "Potential". Like maybe related to the magnetic center, or an inner 'knowing' that has been confirmed by experience, somehow. Something like that?

I think is in indeed something like that. You just reminded me of something . Have you ever heard the reply Gurdjieff gave to Tchekhovitch (remember the russian who Bennet tells the story about 'rock breaking' T couldnt see where to put the chisel, they had been at it for hours and G appears and places the stone chisel in a couple of places and the stone falls apart) who asked about G's own work on himself. He said something along the lines of - "imagine you have been asked to attend to a pot, you have to keep it at a simmer, you have no idea what is in the pot and you are not allowed to lift the lid, you are not guaranteed anything from the pot you just have to sit and tend maybe for years. How long could you tend ?"


So this re-organises my thoughts now

Pot watching - faith , but would there be belief? I think there would still be an aligned belief at some level that watching the pot must be worth the risk. What do you think?






Perhaps faith is in the watching, belief is in the waiting? Watching and not shrinking away, even when brought down to the knees. Waiting, without anticipation, for whatever lessons may come. Components of perception. OSIT
 
If beleif is closed and faith is open can you have Faith without belief? can I have faith that life will give me the right experiences while at the same time believing life will not provide me right experiences? Is Faith not built on beliefs?

Hmm, this is interesting, i'll get back to you when I have something to say.

no one said anything about forcing anything. Can you believe you should do what you can do help someone and if they dont want your help then gracefully stand back but say you will be there if needed.

Yah i know you didnt say anything about forcing. I tried to imply that if you have a belief, then as a result it leads to you 'forcing.' As if I believe something, that is the only possibility that exists for me, otherwise it wont be belief by definition. How can I believe in God and still say God doesnt exist, see, this is a contradiction. So if you believe you should help your neighbour, then by definition you wouldnt take no as an answer from your neighbour. Atleast that is my definition of belief.

If you have faith that you should help your neighbour, then you are open to the possibility that it's not your prerogative to help your neighbour. If he doesnt want your help, then so be it!

I am not familiar with use of faith in this context , that is , having faith that one 'should' do something.

In this case, I think I used the word faith in the wrong way. Maybe I should have said you have faith in your duty/ability to help the neighbour?? Hmmm, then in this case faith and belief are not even on the same line so they cant be opposites... I dont know, I give up.. If I have any more ideas about this i'll let you know.
 
Stevie Argyll said:
Have you ever heard the reply Gurdjieff gave to Tchekhovitch (remember the russian who Bennet tells the story about 'rock breaking' T couldnt see where to put the chisel, they had been at it for hours and G appears and places the stone chisel in a couple of places and the stone falls apart) who asked about G's own work on himself. He said something along the lines of - "imagine you have been asked to attend to a pot, you have to keep it at a simmer, you have no idea what is in the pot and you are not allowed to lift the lid, you are not guaranteed anything from the pot you just have to sit and tend maybe for years. How long could you tend ?"


So this re-organises my thoughts now

Pot watching - faith , but would there be belief? I think there would still be an aligned belief at some level that watching the pot must be worth the risk. What do you think?

I was unaware of pot-watching, but I recognize the idea as the mental or being orientation that sufi 'disciples' must attain once they become capable of receiving the teachings and trust the sufi master.

I personally don't give much weight to 'belief' except as it is important to understand the predator's mind. Belief is important to maintain the social reality and related illusions. In the context of esoteric Work, I feel like one Works to eventually 'Know' at the deepest level. Until one knows whatever it is one is Working towards, there is mainly learning, experimentation and learning and feedback, experimentation, etc.

I guess I'm just echoing Ark when he said I don't want to believe, I want to know. Until then, my search is not complete and 'belief' can become a stumbling block if I'm not careful.

Belief can be incredibly strong and equally bogus. Remember the hypnosis experiment where the subject couldn't be made to believe that a man could disappear before his eyes, yet he could become hypnotically convinced (through auditory cues while blindfolded) that the man left the room? He could believe THAT because THAT was an acceptable possibility. Upon opening his eyes, the subject couldn't see the man who had supposedly left the room, even though the man was there, so he became terrified when the 'invisible' man started picking up and carrying things around the room.
 
Agree with the belief dillema. There is a real problem in that many people confuse beliefs with knowledge and often say they 'know' things when they are really talking about things they believe. I agree, knowing is the aim, beliefs are stages ; test them: if useful continue exploring, if detrimental discard or modify them.


As for , predators mind isn't this just Castenada dramatising Gurdjieffs Kundabuffer or the Biblical Fall? . My thoughts on this is that our reason somehow lodged in the mechanical part of intellectual centre and the mechanical part like all mechanical parts of centres was meant to be a function but instead has become the automatic driver,the false sense of 'I' , the STS 'I' , which being on a lower level that higher emotional and intellectual the mechanical part is subject to spillover from lower emotional centre , therefore fear/(survival/greed)/imagination contamination and our reason is in the main what G calls 'automatic reason' and unfortunately runs the show. my 2 cents worth.
 
Stevie Argyll said:
As for , predators mind isn't this just Castenada dramatising Gurdjieffs Kundabuffer or the Biblical Fall? .

I think that's part of it, but I also think that it is pretty close to the truth. The biblical Fall itself can be seen as a "dramatization" or mythicization of actual events, i.e. a hyperdimensional Fall of consciousness, after which this consciousness acquired the qualities of the higher forces, or hyperdimensional beings, under whose influence we are subject. Their mind became our mind, and our goal is to reattain the state of true consciousness.

My thoughts on this is that our reason somehow lodged in the mechanical part of intellectual centre and the mechanical part like all mechanical parts of centres was meant to be a function but instead has become the automatic driver,

Yep, as in the Prayer of the Soul: Oh Divine Cosmic Mind ... carried in the heart, ruler of the mind..."
 
luke wilson said:
If belief is closed and faith is open can you have Faith without belief?
can I have faith that life will give me the right experiences while at the same time believing life will not provide me right experiences? Is Faith not built on beliefs?
Can you be closed and unreceptive while at the same time open and receptive?
Can water flow, if a dam is in its way?

In the here and now you can just experience one of them, osit
 
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