Fire at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris and Other Catholic Churches

[jsf]

Oak wood, one of the strongest wood in the world.


To start an OAK PLANK on fire you will need one hell of a fire to begin with. A spark WILL NOT DO IT or HEATING. That is what my literature search leads me to conclude. But I bet in Paris they know exactly what happened but that version will not be on TV.

"Following various questions and testimonials, it seems useful to me to bring this info: the restoration work itself had not started yet, only the scaffolding were being assembled. So, no welding and no possible hot spot (source: Chief Architect of Historical Monuments, responsible for the restoration of the spire, Philippe Villeneuve). "

"Suite à différents questions et témoignages, il m’apparaît utile d’apporter cette info : les travaux de restauration proprement dits n’avaient pas encore débuté, seuls les échafaudages étaient en cours de montage. Aucune soudure et pas de point chaud possible, donc (source : architecte en chef des Monuments Historiques, responsable de la restauration de la flèche, Philippe Villeneuve)."

 

[nature]

This unexpected fire reminds me of this weird art-perfomance by a pathological artist

From Notorious anti-Kremlin shock 'artist' arrested for torching French bank will walk free due to 'suspended sentence' -- Sott.net

Sott Comment: No doubt the court's leniency is due to the 'service' provided by Pavlensky in giving some credence to the narrative of Russia as an 'intolerant and oppressive regime'. And noting the French government's hypocrisy, such generosity will not likely be shown to the hapless Gilet Jaunes who have been arrested during (or ahead of) recent protests.

 

[jsf]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=993392444199212

"- you say that this type of wood does not burn like that

No. You know wood that is 800 years old, it's very hard, and to burn it ...
well, myself I never tried, but oak, old oak .. !!
it's not easy at all, you have to put a lot of small wood to get there!
no I stop joking, I think ... it amazes me a lot ...

- where does this reflection lead you, what hypothesis does it take you to?

uh ... fff. I do not see any hypothesis that I can say ...
what hypothesis could one say? it was fast;
we could have done something else so that it does not go so fast
I'm losing myself in conjectures ...
you know, we did to Notre Dame, just before I retired in the 2010s,
we completely updated the electrical installation of our Notre Dame, so there is no possibility of short circuit
the cathedral's detection and fire protection has been reworked to contemporary standards, even by going a long way, with elements ..., measurement and aspiration indicators, etc.
which made it possible to detect a fire
At the bottom of the cathedral there were two men permanently there who are there day and night, who are there to go to see as soon as there is an alarm, and call the firemen as soon as the doubt is raised.

- are they there permanently?

permanently, yes

- there could not have been a failure of the alert mechanism? impossible ?

everything is possible. everything is possible. I do not see how it could happen, because it's been a huge job, and you know it's like in all these sites of historical monuments, especially Notre Dame, we have a technical, normative, control, etc. is considerable
we see nowhere else
so here I'm still pretty stunned

- during the 13 years of which you were the chief architect of the building, you did not know about fire, it never happened?

- no ... I'm delighted (about that)"

- vous dites que ce type de bois ne brûle pas comme ça

Non. Vous savez du bois qui a 800 ans, c'est très dur, et d'en faire brûler...
enfin moi je n'ai jamais essayé, mais du chêne, du vieux chêne .. !!

c'est pas évident du tout, il faut mettre beaucoup de petit bois pour y arriver !
non j'arrête de plaisanter, je crois que... ça me stupéfie beaucoup...

- où vous mène cette réflexion, à quelle hypothèse ça vous amène ?

euh... fff. je ne vois pas d'hypothèse que je puisse dire...
quelle hypothèse on pourrait dire ? ça a été vite;
on aurait pu faire autre chose pour que ça n'aille pas aussi vite
moi je me perds en conjectures...
vous savez, on a fait à notre-dame, juste avant que je prenne ma retraite dans les années 2010
on a remis à plat toute l'installation électrique de notre-dame, donc il n'y a pas de possibilité de court-circuit
on a remis à plat et aux normes contemporaines, même en allant très loin, toute la détection et protection incendie de la cathédrale avec des éléments..., des témoins de mesure, d'aspiration etc
qui permettaient de détecter un départ de feu
il y avait en bas de la cathédrale deux hommes en permanence qui sont là jour et nuit, qui sont là pour aller voir dès qu'il y a une alerte, et appeler les pompiers dès que le doute est levé

- ils sont là en permanence ?

en permanence, oui

- il y aurait pas pu avoir de défaillance du mécanisme d'alerte ? impossible ?

tout est possible. tout est possible. moi je vois mal, parce que ça a été d'un travail colossal, et vous savez c'est comme dans tous ces chantiers de monuments historiques surtout à notre-dame, on a un encadrement technique, normatif, de contrôle etc, etc qui est considérable
qu'on voit nulle part ailleurs
donc là, je suis quand même assez stupéfait

- durant les 13 années dont vous avez été l'architecte en chef du bâtiment, vous n'avez pas eu connaissance de départ de feu, ça n'est jamais arrivé ?

- non... j'en suis ravi

 

[jsf]

PARIS—An alarm was raised at Notre Dame at 6:20 p.m. on Monday night—23 minutes before the structure was engulfed in flames—but officials found no sign of a fire.

Firefighters who responded to a second alert raced to the scene but were then unable to tame an inferno that ripped through the 12th century cathedral for the next 9 hours.

“What we know at this stage is that there was an initial alarm at 6:20 p.m., followed by a procedure to verify this but no fire as found,” Heitz explained. “Then, there was a second alarm at 6:43 p.m. and at that point a fire was detected in the structure.”

_thedailybeast.com/paris-notre-dame-fire-extinguished-revealing-massive-damage-to-the-800-year-old-landmark-situation-still-precarious?fbclid=IwAR2jvmekmDyG4wLYqU8_raeJAvRVYAOIfG23_2ksUejpwtqpVlKtfdBaIUo

 

[Chu]

"Following various questions and testimonials, it seems useful to me to bring this info: the restoration work itself had not started yet, only the scaffolding were being assembled. So, no welding and no possible hot spot (source: Chief Architect of Historical Monuments, responsible for the restoration of the spire, Philippe Villeneuve). "

jsf, could you post the link where you got that quote from, please?

Un chantier qui devait durer 20 ans sur Notre Dame de Paris

<p>Les travaux de restauration de la Cathédrale Notre-Dame de Paris ont commencé en avril 2018 et devaient durer au-delà de 2030</p>

www.batirama.com

500 tons of scaffolding

The first phase of work focused on the restoration of the boom, whose lead cover was no longer watertight. To this end, Europe Echafaudage, a subsidiary of Le Bras Frères, a carpenter specialising in the restoration of churches and cathedrals, whose headquarters are in Jarny en Meurthe-et-Moselle, began building a colossal scaffolding in April 2018 to work on the entire height of the boom, which reaches 96 m. [So, proper renovations hadn't even started yet, eh?]

This scaffold, which partially survived the blaze, weighed 500 tons and consisted of 500,000 pieces. It did not rest on the stones. A construction site elevator on each side of the cathedral provided access to the base of the boom.

On Thursday, April 11, the 16 copper statues placed at the foot of the arrow had been carved to be restored in the workshop. This first phase, costing 11 million Euros, was to continue for 4 years, until 2022, with the restoration of the 250 tonnes of lead in the boom cover. The entire renovation was to last ten years and cost about 60 million euros.

View of the base of the spire that was to be restored and collapsed 3 hours after the start of the cathedral fire ©P.P.P

No electricity in the attic

The Cathedral's frame, made of oak wood, consisted of several parts. The oldest, above the Choir, dates from 1220. In the nave, the structure dates from 1220 to 1240. Its dimensions are exceptional: 100 x 13 m in the nave, 40 m wide in the transept, with a height of 10 m. The structure of the boom was made of 500 tons of wood.

All this wood, several hundred years old, was very dry. To avoid any risk of fire starting, electricity was never installed in the attic under the arrow of the cathedral. Yesterday, only Le Bras Frères was present on the site during the day. It is far too early and this construction site was far too complex to risk a scenario of fire departure.

But, for the purposes of the work, the elevators and their drive were powered by electricity. To power the portable tools, an electrical installation had probably been installed in the scaffolding. The fire brigade indicated the day after the fire that the fire had started from the scaffolding: the electrical defect is plausible. [Was it installed, or "probably", i.e. mere speculation? It sounds like they are making stuff up.]

 

[jsf]

jsf, could you post the link where you got that quote from, please?

You can find it here : _lemonde.fr/societe/article/2019/04/16/notre-dame-la-restauration-de-la-fleche-et-de-la-toiture-premiere-phase-de-150-millions-de-travaux_5450701_3224.html

or here _ouest-france.fr/faits-divers/incendie/incendie-de-notre-dame-de-paris/incendie-de-notre-dame-de-paris-l-hypothese-du-point-chaud-lie-au-chantier-de-renovation-6312055

 

[Ursus Minor]

"Following various questions and testimonials, it seems useful to me to bring this info: the restoration work itself had not started yet, only the scaffolding were being assembled. So, no welding and no possible hot spot (source: Chief Architect of Historical Monuments, responsible for the restoration of the spire, Philippe Villeneuve). "

Thank you, jsf, for posting this vital information. If correct, we're definitely looking at an attack on the cathedral.

 

[Ca.]

From inside:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1118158010222817280

Translated from French by Microsoft
Video from inside #NotreDame. Terrifying.

Notice the glow of yellow smoke. Unusual for a carbon based fire.

Before:

After

One of 157: MailOnline

They already had a theory of the ignition source. But the video is already gone. One possibility was a spark from a mechanical device (landing on the wooden scaffold planks above.) And (over time), some how smoldering and the thus the inferno.

I think Chu and jsf are on the right track.

Notre-Dame : comment est parti l'incendie ?
Notre-Dame: how did the fire start?
Video/ 05:06
Apr 16 18:34 - French MSN

A violent fire devastated Notre-Dame Cathedral in Paris on Monday night. The disaster destroyed the frame and caused the collapse of the spire. An investigation was initiated to determine the origin of the fire. And concerning the subject, the opinions are diversified. Where did the fire go from precisely in the building? What track do investigators prefer?

This Tuesday, April 16, 2019, Jennifer Knock, in his column "The essentials", details the first elements of the investigation into the origin of the fire that ravaged Notre Dame Monday night. This column was broadcast in 24h Pujadas of 16/04/2019 presented by David Pujadas on LCI. From Monday to Friday, from 18h, David Pujadas brings all his expertise to analyze the news of the day with pedagogy.

And another interesting coincidence of this day.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1117685901117853697

Translated from French by Microsoft
#CeJourLa April 15, 1452: birth of a universal genius, #LeonardoDaVinci the man of the arts and Sciences. 500 years later, he continues to inspire us. A review, Leonard "Science Accelerator" aired on Thursday on @France5tv: Science grand format Léonard de Vinci, accélérateur de science #HappyBirthday

 

[caballero reyes]

I have not seen news about the beautiful stained glass windows.
It seems that they did not suffer damage despite the intense heat.

 

[caballero reyes]

Joe said:
"Before the period of Christianity in France, a Gallo-Roman temple dedicated to Jupiter stood on the site of Notre-Dame".
"Should the self-styled French Jupiter - Emmanuel Macron - interpret the burning of Notre-Dame as a personal portent?"

It's possible. The Templars were highly symbolic for everything they did, for what they built and for what they destroyed, and the most likely thing is that they continue to rule France.
Very few believe that the order was destroyed; they were the ones to build that temple to raise the spirituality of the Catholic faithful in the dark Middle Ages.

 

[caballero reyes]

Hi_ Henry said:
"Oak wood, one of the strongest wood in the world."

It is true. The Oak and the Elm are present in some significant and transcendental rituals on very specific dates during medieval Europe.

 

[mkrnhr]

I have not seen news about the beautiful stained glass windows.
It seems that they did not suffer damage despite the intense heat.

According to RT,

As Parisians come to terms with the scale of Monday’s disastrous fire at Notre Dame some good news has emerged at the site: the cathedral’s stunning historical rosette windows appear to have survived unscathed.
The incredibly ornate and detailed stained glass windows which date back some 800-900 years are still in place and look untouched, according to one church official, despite significant damage to the building.

 

[jsf]

She was inside the cathedral :

There was a big noise.

mobile.twitter.com/Le_blog_d_HB/status/1117833401401335812?fbclid=IwAR1V71LPTzmC-mMMZf8gfwGBmQZFrZqB8-CUu5X89EGMb9E2mDSjGGyPgrM

In the choir, the lady next to me asks me if I heard like her "the big noise". I answer in the affirmative although not knowing exactly where it came from or what it covered. Rather in height and on the left. Accustomed to fire alarms as a teacher, I wonder if that is one of them. But the security guards arrive and evacuate everyone. Even the faithful of the mass. At around 6:35 pm

When we find ourselves outside, we do not know what it is. The vigilantes either. Very straddling the procedures, they vigorously rebuff all those who want to override. The grids close. Then, while the tourists can not enter, some faithful of whom I am are allowed to return, to join the priest to continue the interrupted mass. No more microphone. But people behind and around the altar are busy noisily in this now empty, silent cathedral. Father Carrau left the ambo to be closer to this handful of faithful and begins two sentences to be interrupted very very quickly: howls we feel to go out. We feel the serious panic. We obey on the field; we are out again at the speed of lightning. Fire, attack? We go off without asking for his rest.

fr.aleteia.org/2019/04/16/et-la-levant-la-tete-de-la-fumee-horreur-elle-assistait-a-la-messe-a-notre-dame-quand-lincendie-sest-declare/

 

[jsf]

Something else :

A precise evacuation protocol. Around 18:15, it is the beginning of the office in the cathedral. Five minutes later, at 6:20 pm, a red dot flashes on the security officers' control screen: a fire detector indicates an anomaly. One of the officers is in charge of going to check in the indicated zone and, according to the prosecutor of Paris, he finds nothing.

However, the protocol to be followed is extremely precise, ensures that the fire-fighting device was installed at the beginning of 2010. "The clergy said: if there is an alarm that goes off for no reason, do not bother to distract the faithful. In the cathedral, if there is a real alarm going on, you tell us and we will say to the microphone, calmly, that you have to go out.If the alarm is triggered, the fire is real, "explains Benjamin Mouton, former chief architect at Notre-Dame de Paris.

A computer bug. However, according to the organist of the office, this message of evacuation resonated well in the cathedral. If the evacuation takes place, it is therefore that one discovered an outbreak of fire as of 18h30, well before the second alert of 18h43. What seems to confirm one of the assumptions of the investigators in Parisien: 18h20, a computer bug reported a bad sector to the security officer. He would not have found the fire until he returned from his round. Some precious minutes of lost before the intervention of the firemen.

At 18:50, the fire took in the attic of Notre-Dame, and a dense smoke escapes from the roof and the arrow. It's already too late.

_europe1.fr/societe/incendie-a-notre-dame-entre-la-premiere-et-la-seconde-alerte-que-sest-il-passe-pendant-23-minutes-3893394

 

[Adaryn]

Symbolic? The spire's rooster has been found amidst the rubble. All is not lost for France?

Fire of Notre-Dame: the rooster of the spire has been found in the rubble

This is one of the most striking images of the fire that devastated Notre-Dame: the collapse of the cathedral's spire, under the cries of observers.

The rooster of the spire of Notre-Dame de Paris, which was thought to have been destroyed, was found on Tuesday, April 16, told a spokesman for the Ministry of Culture to AFP, confirming a tweet from the president of the French federation of the Jacques Chanut Building.
He confirmed the information of Jacques Chanut who announced in a tweet that a restorer "found in the rubble the rooster from the top of #NotreDame's spire" with two photos of this man holding a green rooster in his hands.

"The clergy has recovered the rooster," added the ministry spokesman without further details. According to a source at the Ministry of Culture quoted in Le Parisien, "it is dented but probably restorable.

As it is sunk in, we have not yet been able to check whether the relics are still there. The spire "fell into the nave but, when it fell, the rooster detached and fell on the right side, on a side aisle, perhaps on the walkway, at least outside the focus of the fire", continued the manager.

The twelve apostles and four monumental evangelists which adorned Notre Dame's roof barely escaped the disaster. Helitted last Thursday, they arrived last week near Périgueux to be restored. These green-grey statues were installed during the reconstruction of the cathedral spire, carried out in 1859-1860 by architect Eugène Viollet-le-Duc. The original spire was built in 1250 and dismantled in 1786-1792.

But the rooster was considered melted after the fire. "Unfortunately the rooster has melted," said Patrick Palem, former CEO but still advising Socra, the company from Marsac-sur-l'Isle (Dordogne) in charge of restoring the 16 copper statues.

This rooster, also made of repoussé copper, shelters, according to the Church, contains relics of Saint Genevieve and Saint Denis, as well as a fragment of Christ's crown of thorns, supposed to protect Parisians.