Foundational Economics and Hope for This Planet

Skyalmian said:
In early 2013 I read a large chunk of _http://sacred-economics.com / _https://www.amazon.com/dp/1583943978 before giving it away. It was not about doing away with money but transforming it into something that serves rather than enslaves.

Ok. That is one book I have not read, but I can see no way to protect against the psychopaths taking over ANY money system, sooner or later, without severely restricting freedoms...which kinda defeats the point, I would think, and even then I am not sure it would protect against Them.
 
Amaterasu Solar said:
obyvatel said:
Expressed another way, "free energy " can be an archetypal idea in Jungian psychology terms and has an associated corresponding morphic field possibly due to Atlantean history. Archetypes and morphic fields have been briefly discussed before in this thread .

The danger with an archetypal idea is that it can literally possess any human being who completely identifies with it and drives him/her to become one-sided and obsessed with the idea. The identification, taken too far, can turn into a sort of messianic zeal to promote the idea. The one-sidedness is visible to others but not to the person under the influence of the idea. The psychological consequences of this one-sidedness is not good for the person concerned, and since there appears to be some indications of this here, I thought I would sound the warning bell fwiw.

I suppose... Though I figure We have plenty of practice handling the rare individual that goes off "the deep end..." I just cannot see the bulk of Humanity choosing to behave poorly with no profit to Them. Only the odd oddball.

My post was referred to you, Amaterasu Solar.

Regarding the forum, based on your posts so far, it seems your intent is to focus on this one topic in a clearly one-sided way and propagate your views which are already present in your website. So far there has not been much indication that you have interest in learning what is done here. I would say that your understanding of human psychology as well as "extended" history of mankind is very different from what is understood here. If you are sincere about interacting here above and beyond pushing your "solution" to human problems, I would suggest that you re-read the forum guidelines and get up to speed with some basic stuff we do here.
 
obyvatel said:
My post was referred to you, Amaterasu Solar.

Regarding the forum, based on your posts so far, it seems your intent is to focus on this one topic in a clearly one-sided way and propagate your views which are already present in your website. So far there has not been much indication that you have interest in learning what is done here. I would say that your understanding of human psychology as well as "extended" history of mankind is very different from what is understood here. If you are sincere about interacting here above and beyond pushing your "solution" to human problems, I would suggest that you re-read the forum guidelines and get up to speed with some basic stuff we do here.

I see. Well, I though I would offer and explain a way We might work to correct things on this planet. I offered, and clearly You (some of You) are not interested. I am disappointed. But I did cruise around, read quite a bit, have not seen anything that looked like a solution being aimed for. [shrug]

Do have a nice life then. If anyOne wants to pursue this further, I am on Twitter @AmaterasuSolar. Will peek in to see what is posted in the other thread I started, make any responses there, and I will be happy to be on My way.

Thanks to Those who chose to read and consider what I offer.
 
I think there have been some pretty good objections to your ideas, but nobody seems to be of the opinion that you are not someone worthy of working with. That last post is quite revealing into your character, however, not to mention that you were oblivious to obyvatel's original critique of your tactics. If you were truly willing to work with the people here, then you ought to be able to give something other than proselytizing your ideas without being able to analyze them critically. You know, an exchange ;).

You have been making me think about these ideas, and I think I have refined my ideas about economy because of that so thank you. I would like to make an analogy, one which I think fits well.

You suggest, basically, that if humans had access to free energy, we could construct a society from this that was abundant, not based on scarcity and that people would then be able to create infrastructure that would absolve them of menial manual work and allow us all to focus on that which we love. This would remove the need for exchange, and usher in a type of solutocratic government, which would be formed on the basis of attending to regions of ever increasing size.

The starting point, is therefore access to abundant energy. The thing is, there are natural systems with access to abundant energy that we can observe to give us an idea of what such a thing might look like. Let us take a single tree as an example, but understand that we could use a grove or a forest as well.

A tree has access to free energy, it simply has to produce leaves and absord water and co2 in order for the process of photosynthesis. However, the health and vigour of a tree is not guaranteed. A vigorous tree will have a relationship based upon exchange with mychorizzal fungi in the soil which take carbohydrate from the tree for energy but in turn will allow the tree to better uptake minerals and nutrients. There will be numerous other relationships, for example let's assume the tree bears apples. The tree produces fruit which appeals to animals that will consume the flesh, and unwittingly digest the seeds and scarify them before depositing them in a new spot in its manure, which would happen to be an excellent potting soil, so to speak. Again, the energy expended by the tree to produce the fruit that appeals to ungulates or birds or what have you, is done with the understanding that the animal will process, scarify and transport that seed and likely leave it in a pile of an ideal growth medium. Again, this is an exchange. And it is in a system in which the starting point is free access to energy.

So, while I think your ideas are laudible, I find them naive and lacking a basic understanding of natural systems which I believe, are actually better represented by our contemporary economic system than the one you envision. Not to mention that you basically sweep the true cost economic concept under the rug. The problem with that is, it occurs to me that the world is slowly moving towards that type of economy as we speak. More and more public pressure and awareness of the cost of environmental degradation has, for example, changed timber harvesting practices drastically.

And finally, when Gurdjieff is explaining to Ouspensky and his pupils the reason for which he charges 1000 rubles per student per month, which seemed like an exorbitant sum at the time, he replied by saying that he would not charge if he didn't have to, but people would only assume that the value of what he taught was the same as the cost he charged. That is to say, if you give something for free, that is what people will feel it is worth ie. nothing.

Good luck to you, but I encourage you to subsume your ego, and do your best to learn from this and not become exactly what obyvatel referred to with his original criticism.
 
Dylan said:
I think there have been some pretty good objections to your ideas, but nobody seems to be of the opinion that you are not someone worthy of working with. That last post is quite revealing into your character, however, not to mention that you were oblivious to obyvatel's original critique of your tactics. If you were truly willing to work with the people here, then you ought to be able to give something other than proselytizing your ideas without being able to analyze them critically. You know, an exchange ;).

You have been making me think about these ideas, and I think I have refined my ideas about economy because of that so thank you. I would like to make an analogy, one which I think fits well.

You suggest, basically, that if humans had access to free energy, we could construct a society from this that was abundant, not based on scarcity and that people would then be able to create infrastructure that would absolve them of menial manual work and allow us all to focus on that which we love. This would remove the need for exchange, and usher in a type of solutocratic government, which would be formed on the basis of attending to regions of ever increasing size.

The starting point, is therefore access to abundant energy. The thing is, there are natural systems with access to abundant energy that we can observe to give us an idea of what such a thing might look like. Let us take a single tree as an example, but understand that we could use a grove or a forest as well.

A tree has access to free energy, it simply has to produce leaves and absord water and co2 in order for the process of photosynthesis. However, the health and vigour of a tree is not guaranteed. A vigorous tree will have a relationship based upon exchange with mychorizzal fungi in the soil which take carbohydrate from the tree for energy but in turn will allow the tree to better uptake minerals and nutrients. There will be numerous other relationships, for example let's assume the tree bears apples. The tree produces fruit which appeals to animals that will consume the flesh, and unwittingly digest the seeds and scarify them before depositing them in a new spot in its manure, which would happen to be an excellent potting soil, so to speak. Again, the energy expended by the tree to produce the fruit that appeals to ungulates or birds or what have you, is done with the understanding that the animal will process, scarify and transport that seed and likely leave it in a pile of an ideal growth medium. Again, this is an exchange. And it is in a system in which the starting point is free access to energy.

So, while I think your ideas are laudible, I find them naive and lacking a basic understanding of natural systems which I believe, are actually better represented by our contemporary economic system than the one you envision. Not to mention that you basically sweep the true cost economic concept under the rug. The problem with that is, it occurs to me that the world is slowly moving towards that type of economy as we speak. More and more public pressure and awareness of the cost of environmental degradation has, for example, changed timber harvesting practices drastically.

And finally, when Gurdjieff is explaining to Ouspensky and his pupils the reason for which he charges 1000 rubles per student per month, which seemed like an exorbitant sum at the time, he replied by saying that he would not charge if he didn't have to, but people would only assume that the value of what he taught was the same as the cost he charged. That is to say, if you give something for free, that is what people will feel it is worth ie. nothing.

Good luck to you, but I encourage you to subsume your ego, and do your best to learn from this and not become exactly what obyvatel referred to with his original criticism.

I really liked the analogy to the natural system that started with free energy in terms of sunlight. I wonder though about the idea of exchange - specifically the human motivation that's about only giving when you get back something of equal value in return. I don't see that motivation in a tree bearing fruit for example, it just does it. Often even its seems too much. Heaps of fruit just drops, seeds don't spread, a lot of needless effort so to speak going to waste. However in a thriving ecosystem nothing is going to waste, everything given is of value, made use of by other organisms and the system naturally flourishes. There's no requirement to measure up the value every single living thing produces and only give that which comes back in equal measure. In fact that would create another layer of superfluous management which is actually bad conservation of energy, in effect - wasteful.

Only we humans create systems that aren't innately self managed, we add the layer on top essentially I reckon to compensate for some basic emotional pain.
 
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