Free Will and how not to violate it (realising your violating it)

[RedFox]

Hi all

Following the Free Will vs Lessons thread, and a realisation it helped trigger yesterday I realise I'm lacking some knowledge in this area.
Maybe all this is incredibly simple, and I'm just being rather blind.

Last night heading for bed I had to move the cat off it. As usual I said to it (..odd habit perhaps) 'nearly time to get of the bed'.
I then proceeded to work out the best way to move the cat of the bed....then it hit me
By moving the cat off the bed I'm violating its free will...the cat would quite happily stay there otherwise.
I opted offer it some fresh food, and put some more in its dish. He did eventually go for the food then.

I guess it was the surprise/shock of realising I was going to go ahead and move it completely automatically that hit me as much as the fact that it was a free will violation (although part of me keeps arguing its not...)

I'm now trying to be more aware of my actions towards other...more mindful I guess.
I'm still relatively new to the site and the ideas from the C's. Still have many many books to read.
My minds twisting with justifications about all this...

I stood frozen to the spot for a while...and am doing the same while posting this......

My original question I wanted to ask last night was...would the act of moving the cat of the bed (so I could sleep in it) really be a free will violation...because part of me thinks its not (And I don't know why!)....and then wondering how many other ways I daily do little things (and maybe not so little things) to violate others free wills...

But...from having started posting this...and feeling (I guess) the horror of realisation that it was automatic...agian...and just freezing...is that a 'shock' or just wishful thinking? (Is this what hit me more?)
Whats more disturbing is that as I write some of these things...and think of things to write...I can feel the horror subsiding....myself covering it up...and as I notice the horror kicks in agian

Guess this post didn't quite come out how I expected it too!
Going to be a weird day

 

[Ruth]

My original question I wanted to ask last night was...would the act of moving the cat of the bed (so I could sleep in it) really be a free will violation...because part of me thinks its not (And I don't know why!)....and then wondering how many other ways I daily do little things (and maybe not so little things) to violate others free wills...

There were a couple of things that occured to me. Firstly, you are discusing two very different levels of consciousness, here that of 3rd density and 2nd density.

And secondly, was the cat violating your free will by staying on the bed???

Perhaps a violation of free will is only a problem when harm is done? Of course, how a 3rd density being (such as ourselves) and a 2nd density being (example: feline) see "harm" are two completely different things. The same thing can probably be said for people who are cognitively impaired or perhaps in a state of psychosis. Under these circumstances, often people get medical treatment against their free will.

Speaking for myself, I am constantly violating my cat's free will! This occurs everytime I worm him; de-flea him; treat an abcess caused by a fight with another cat; take him to the vet; shut him in at night; not allow him to scratch the furniture; not allow him in my bedroom, and strongly discourage him bringing prey into the house (usually to eat). He might consider this a small price to pay for being fed as well as patted and spoken to and besides, no-one else is going to do it... ;)

If you think about it, we are constantly violating other people's free will. Its a good question to ask though. What is free will? And what are the consequences of violating it?

 

[webglider]

Last night heading for bed I had to move the cat off it. As usual I said to it (..odd habit perhaps) 'nearly time to get of the bed'.
I then proceeded to work out the best way to move the cat of the bed....then it hit me
By moving the cat off the bed I'm violating its free will...the cat would quite happily stay there otherwise.
I opted offer it some fresh food, and put some more in its dish. He did eventually go for the food then.

I guess it was the surprise/shock of realising I was going to go ahead and move it completely automatically that hit me as much as the fact that it was a free will violation (although part of me keeps arguing its not...)

I'm now trying to be more aware of my actions towards other...more mindful I guess

This is an interesting question as it involves not only the issue of free will, but also that of interactions between third density and 2nd density beings.

Here is my analysis for what it's worth.

I see this particular example as a matter of competition rather than free will. Your cat is comfy on your bed, but it is your bed, and you need to get a good night's sleep for the next day. Who has the right to the bed? On the question of need, I would say you do considering that you need the bed to get a good night's sleep and would not, in all likelihood, be as comfortable curled up in a chair or stretched out on the rug, as the cat would be.

If the cat brought the accusation to a court of law and accused you of violating its free will, I would guess that considering that it is you and not the cat who was asked to sign the lease or deed; and furthermore, considering it is you and not the cat who is legally responsible for the rent or morgage, the maintainence of the property, including the aforementioned bed I would say that a jury would award the use of the bed to you.

But what about the cat?

It seems that you were very externally considerate of the cat by creating another situation where the cat could exercise its free will by opting for food over the coveted bed. Once the bed has been vacated, and the cat otherwise occupied, the bed belongs to you.

Is this fair? Can the cat return the favor by offering you your favorite snack? Probably not.
You outmaneuvered the cat.

I don't think that there was any harm done ,for, as far as I see it in this particular case, each of you has gotten something desirable, a classic win-win situation.

Still, as this analysis shows, the playing field is not even between second and third density beings.

No cause for worry. The cat has it's own resources to draw upon to level the playing field in its favor.

I predict that with several repetitions, the cat will have taught you to feed it each time you find it curled up on the bed.

It gets more complicated with interactions between 3rd density beings. But it seems that if people showed the same level of external consideration to each other as you showed to your cat, the world would be a much better place.

Although people, like the hypothetical situation of the cat retraining you, may consciously exploit your consideration of them to work in their favor and against your own best interests.

I think it's a good thing as a general rule to externally consider everyone, but it's also important to know with whom you are dealing and protect yourself.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

By moving the cat off the bed I'm violating its free will...the cat would quite happily stay there otherwise. I opted offer it some fresh food, and put some more in its dish. He did eventually go for the food then.

I think that's not a good strategy. If you keep doing this, before you know it the cat will be fat and very unhealthy, and on top of that he will walk all over you as he'll know he's in charge. You are already violating his free will by keeping him as a pet in the first place. On the other hand if you just let him go, he'll most likely get himself into a lot of suffering and trouble and possibly not survive for long on his own. But that's kinda your fault since you chose to "own" a cat, bring him into an artificial human environment, and condition him to be helpless and unable to survive in the wild without relying on you.

Despite the personafication that they are given by some people, animals are not companions or friends or house-mates. They do possess those qualities to a degree, but first and foremost they are still animals, and they have no ability to understand your needs or choices as a human, and therefore no ability to "accomodate" you on their own free will. It's not like living with a room mate. As a result there's really 3 options open to us that I can think of:

1) Not share a living space with an animal
2) Share a living space but train/control the animal.
3) Share a living space and let the animal control you.

Seems like the 3rd option would work out pretty bad for you and the animal. An animal has no ability to function on his own in an artificial environment like a human house. And if you let him be in charge, you'll also have no ability to function in your own house.

Besides option 1, option 2 seems to be the only sensible choice. But I think it's a lot like a child. You don't just let a baby or a young child do whatever the heck he/she wants. It looks like in this world it's really impossible to bring up a child without taking control of the child, and then as it grows up slowly relinquishing that control and giving the child progressively more and more freedom. Another thing to consider here is the law of 3. There is good, there is evil, and then there's the specific situation that decides which is which. In case of kids/animals, it's a very minimal free will violation with much greater benefit (in the case of an animal or a child, it's literally survival). If humans did not violate free will of children, the human race would be extinct within a generation.

Hmm on the other hand, if you're living with a human room mate and he's laying on your bed and you need to go to bed, I also fully recommend picking him up and tossing him off. It works just as well with grown humans who are on a 2nd density intelligence level as it does with cats! :P

 

[PepperFritz]

I sleep with four animals in my bed every night (two dogs and two cats). They array themselves on the bed in various comfortable positions while I am on the computer. When I'm ready to turn in, I exercise my free will and say "Okay, everybody off the bed". Most comply with my request, but sometimes a cat has to be physically removed. Once I've settled myself into a comfortable sleeping position, I say "Okay, back up", at which point they all exercise their free will and get up and resettle themselves on the bed around my body.

Seems a fair arrangement to me.

 

[Annette1]

Very recently, I had a “choice” to make which involved me taking on the responsibility of caring for a cat. Previously (prior to my enlightenment here), and after having had the responsibility of raising two children, I had “chosen” not to take on the responsibility of caring for an animal as I wanted the “freedom”. I also concur with ScioAgapeOmnis:

But I think it's a lot like a child. You don't just let a baby or a young child do whatever the heck he/she wants. It looks like in this world it's really impossible to bring up a child without taking control of the child, and then as it grows up slowly relinquishing that control and giving the child progressively more and more freedom. Another thing to consider here is the law of 3. There is good, there is evil, and then there's the specific situation that decides which is which. In case of kids/animals, it's a very minimal free will violation with much greater benefit (in the case of an animal or a child, it's literally survival). If humans did not violate free will of children, the human race would be extinct within a generation.

I would like to point out that by accepting (choosing) the responsibility of raising a child, one also relinquishes some “free will”.

Now, back to my “choice” and considerations in making the “choice” I made. Besides not actually wanting the responsibility of caring for an animal, now I added to that the awareness of “free will” and how accepting the responsibility of caring for an animal would be in violation of the animal’s free will. So, I struggled with that. A cat landed on my doorstep. I fed the animal, but waited for an “owner” to claim the animal. None appeared after months. Meanwhile I struggled with the “free will” versus possible fates for the animal. Unlike the other strays that wander in and out of the neighborhood, this cat appeared well cared for, accustomed to humans and rather “domesticated” (which is why I believed someone would claim it). I watched the animal defend herself against the other “more seasoned” strays. She seemed inclined to flee to some “safe” harbor when possible rather that to fight.

I did realize that by feeding the cat, she would most likely stay around. However, I also noted that after food she wanted attention and was very amicable. And, in struggling thru the “free will” question, I also recalled stories I’d read (although I did not verify them) of animals separated from their caretakers through some set of circumstances and the animal going to great lengths to “reunite” with their caretakers. If such stories are true, then it seems that the animal in said cases exercised its “free will” and made a “choice”. (I'm not attempting to imply that this cat made a choice to leave her previous, if they existed, caretaker(s). I suspect she may have been "dropped" off by her previous caretaker(s). This was just all apart of my sifting thru the "free will" question.)

I don’t know if I made a “good” decision; “right” decision. But, my choice was to accept responsibility for the cat and take it in. I don’t view myself as the “owner” of the cat, just as I did not view myself as the “owner” of my children. And I can tell you that my children provided many “lessons” for me along the way; they are mature adults now and they still provide lessons. So, it’s not “a one way street” so to speak in the “lessons” department. My goal in raising my children was to help them learn and think for themselves so that eventually they would be able to intelligently follow whatever path they chose. Independent of me.

I will attempt to care for the animal as best I can, be respectful of the 2nd density resident and its needs, try and understand to the best of my ability and hopefully we'll provide "positive" lessons for each other.

Another thought I had in all this: maybe the cat is a 3rd Density hopeful as I am a 4th Density hopeful. ??

 

[PepperFritz]

...it seems that the animal in said cases exercised its “free will” and made a “choice”....

The problem is that you simply do not know what circumstances and choices led to that cat showing up on your doorstep; somehow I doubt that it was a random event.

I've never made a conscious decision to adopt and care for an animal -- they all seemed to choose me, and I just went along with that choice. The relationship between human and animal can be a deeply mysterious thing. Some of my biggest and most important life lessons I've learned from animals. For me, in many ways it is more like a cooperative partnership than a caregiving relationship....

 

[Johnno]

Following the Free Will vs Lessons thread, and a realisation it helped trigger yesterday I realise I'm lacking some knowledge in this area.

Maybe all this is incredibly simple, and I'm just being rather blind.

It is rather simple and this is how you have kept it. A simple fact or action can go from "knowledge" then applying or noticing/observing it which somehow goes to "understanding" it.

Last night heading for bed I had to move the cat off it. As usual I said to it (..odd habit perhaps) 'nearly time to get of the bed'.
I then proceeded to work out the best way to move the cat of the bed....then it hit me
By moving the cat off the bed I'm violating its free will...the cat would quite happily stay there otherwise.
I opted offer it some fresh food, and put some more in its dish. He did eventually go for the food then.

I guess it was the surprise/shock of realising I was going to go ahead and move it completely automatically that hit me as much as the fact that it was a free will violation (although part of me keeps arguing its not...)

The shock of the automatism can be quite an event eh? (As an aside I looked for a definition of Stopinder which is Gurdjieff's term for a "shock" and came across it in the the QFS glossary for Bose Einstein condensate.....which I was also looking at separately this morning. Weird!)

In any case you're a cat owner and I'm a cat owner, free will transgressions on both sides take place all the time.... the karma seems to balance out. As testament to the paw prints on my car bonnet/hood.

Cats don't have owners they have staff!

 

[Annette1]

The problem is that you simply do not know what circumstances and choices led to that cat showing up on your doorstep; somehow I doubt that it was a random event.

I've never made a conscious decision to adopt and care for an animal -- they all seemed to choose me, and I just went along with that choice. The relationship between human and animal can be a deeply mysterious thing. Some of my biggest and most important life lessons I've learned from animals. For me, in many ways it is more like a cooperative partnership than a caregiving relationship....

Odd you mentioned this as it was a part of my consideration of “my choice”. As yourself, unlike the dogs I’ve cared for, (or maybe the dogs did choose me and I'm not as "tuned in" to dogs' frequency) all the cats in my life seem to have chosen me. Come to think of it, three parakeets I cared for chose me as well. I do wonder what’s up with that. Further, again I agree that the animals I’ve cared for have taught me many great lessons.

And:

...free will transgressions on both sides take place all the time.... the karma seems to balance out.

I have to agree there. This is off-topic, but a few weeks back I recall an article posted on SOTT regarding cats’ purring and its affect on humans with regard to “cat owners” having a lesser degree of “heart related problems.” I thought this was interesting as people in general, even those who do not necessarily have an affinity for cats, do tend to find their purring “soothing”. Sometimes I wonder just who is caring for whom regardless of the animal type. Seems a giving situation on both sides whether or not we are aware and what we (humans) learn from our interactions with 2nd density (our behaviors and some lessons in free-will) are actually pretty awesome when you really stop and consider it.

 

[PepperFritz]

...a few weeks back I recall an article posted on SOTT regarding cats’ purring and its affect on humans with regard to “cat owners” having a lesser degree of “heart related problems.” I thought this was interesting as people in general, even those who do not necessarily have an affinity for cats, do tend to find their purring “soothing”. Sometimes I wonder just who is caring for whom regardless of the animal type. Seems a giving situation on both sides whether or not we are aware and what we (humans) learn from our interactions with 2nd density (our behaviors and some lessons in free-will) are actually pretty awesome when you really stop and consider it.

I didn't see that SOTT article, but what a strange serendipity that you should talk about cat purring and human health, as this has been on my mind a lot lately. A few weeks ago I was given a CD as a gift, by a musician named Tom Kenyon who claims to channel "healing sounds" from other "dimensions". I found the CD very interesting and evocative, but do not vouch for its claims. However, it was a jumping off point for some searching on the internet about any other material I might be able to find about sounds/vibrations and their connection with healing. While in the midst of this, one of my cats (Bella) started meowing at me from the bed, which is very unlike her, she only meows when she wants food or to be let out. When I didn't respond to her meowing, she came over and jumped on my computer and meowed right in my face, leaving me a little stunned. "What???" I said, rather annoyed. Then she jumped onto my chest and settled herself there, purring away rather loudly.

Now that left me really stunned, because Bella (unlike her brother Fritz) is NOT a lap cat, and does not usually like to be held. My first thought (irrational though it might be) was, "She's trying to tell me something -- but what?". Then it just popped into my head: cats... purring... healing.... So I typed those words into Google, which led me to a bevy of fascinating material on the subject. Thereafter, Bella started sleeping up beside my head (instead of my feet, her usual place), and I've been falling asleep to the sound of cat purring in my ear ever since.

I'm not someone who normally thinks my animals are "trying to tell me something" -- at least nothing beyond "I'm hungry", "I have to pee", or "Please scratch my belly" -- so this all was very unusual, to say the least.

 

[outcydr]

I then proceeded to work out the best way to move the cat of the bed....then it hit me
By moving the cat off the bed I'm violating its free will...the cat would quite happily stay there otherwise.
I opted offer it some fresh food, and put some more in its dish. He did eventually go for the food then.

am i seeing this correctly?

of your own concious free will, through the power of suggestion, you manipulated the cat into exercising it's own free will to do what you desired it to do - a desire it was unaware of. in other words you were awake and it was asleep to what was really going on.

I'm now trying to be more aware of my actions towards other...more mindful I guess.

how many times have i been manupulated like this?
how many times have i manipulated others in this way?

plenty

 

[Annette1]

From casual observation, I’ve concluded that 2nd density tries harder to communicate with us 3rd density creatures than we do with them for the most part. They seem to have greater success! Persistence maybe?? Those 2nd density creatures seem to “know” stuff and how they figure it out baffles me. They seem very tuned into “us”; our actions, behaviors, emotions. Their “internal clock” is incredibly precise. My cats have “told” me when it’s “bedtime.” They know I don’t see so well in the dark; they scurry out of the way when the lights go out. I do believe they attempt to communicate with us. I don’t think we are very adept at deciphering their communication as they are at deciphering ours, all things considered.

I don’t think there is any conclusive scientific evidence as to why cats purr. Again, from casual observation and my experience with cats and from scientific theories on the subject, I’ve theorized that cats may purr to calm themselves or to “gear down”, being as they are highly strung (tense) creatures. Although it would be considered “instinctive behavior” by us, it may have the effect of lowering their blood pressure. I would be interested in knowing, given this new-found scientific information, what cats tend to die from (primary cause). If the theory is correct, I suspect that the primary cause would not be heart failure (percentage-wise).

Since purring creates a vibration at a certain frequency, it may have the same sort of affect on a human. All energy is vibration and frequency from what we have learned from the C’s. I don’t think it is unreasonable to suspect there are energy transfers between 2nd and 3rd density creatures.

There have been various studies of “health benefits” to humans who live with 2nd density creatures that cite “positive” gain for the humans. So, maybe this isn’t really a one-sided affair going on. Both sides seem to reap benefits. As Johnno pointed out, it all seems to balance out in karma.

Excellent point, Outcydr. Again, our interactions with 2nd density creatures have the capability of "showing" us even our "mild" sts mindset and mechanical actions. For those who strive to do the work, this is teaching in its gentle and non-destructive form.

 

[go2]

Again, our interactions with 2nd density creatures have the capability of "showing" us even our "mild" sts mindset and mechanical actions. For those who strive to do the work, this is teaching in its gentle and non-destructive form.

I do not use animals as pets. However, I eat 2nd density creatures all the time. I have never wondered
about their free will. I didn't ask if they were willing to be eaten. I have strived to respect and acknowledge
their life as a gift and that some day I will be asked to give my own to life to this ray of creation. It makes
clear how beings of the 4th dimension might be having me or you for dinner. This is an STS world and cannot
be different. It is a reality of predator and prey. God has many faces, not all pleasant to behold.

I recently attended a bullfight in Sevilla, Spain. I did think about the relationship of the bulls, horses, spectators,
and men who fought and killed the bulls. This orginates in an ancient ritual sacrifice and thanksgiving for death
and its role in the STS world. I noticed a difference in the way the matadors treated the bulls. A young El
Columbiano disrespected the courage and strengh of the bull's life as he tapped the sword on the exhausted
bull's head. El Fundi, an older matador, held the killing stroke, risking his own life as the bull's horns threw
him into the air. His courage was a gesture to the courage and power of the fearless fighting bulls. These bulls
are bred to die in the ring. They have their testicles and run wild until the moment when they meet their fate
in the ring. We will meet the same fate, may I have the courage of the bulls. These wild bulls and their treatment contrasts with the caged and force fed creatures mankind eats by the billions or locks in a
small apartment their entire lives. I have raised animals as a farmer and have hunted many years. Thanks,
Red Fox, for your noticing the animals and plants of 2nd density who contribute their lives to our STS world.

 

[TheSpoon]

I would like to point out that by accepting (choosing) the responsibility of raising a child, one also relinquishes some “free will”.

Gosh, and then some! I'm currently coming to terms (after a year and a half) of just what that responsibility entails and what parts of me resent it. It's showing me how impossibly far away from being STO oriented I am. Three days without getting my own needs attended to and I get quite unreasonable - still a child myself!

It's ironic that my freedom is so much curtailed by looking after a child, and yet I spend my whole time curtailing my child's freedom - "No Spoon Jnr, don't throw milk over the carpet". It's like we're mutual jailers. I bring the food, he brings the toys.

Spoon.

 

[RedFox]

Looks like I've got some catch up todo on the thread....apologies for the length of this post!

There were a couple of things that occured to me. Firstly, you are discusing two very different levels of consciousness, here that of 3rd density and 2nd density.

And secondly, was the cat violating your free will by staying on the bed???
Perhaps a violation of free will is only a problem when harm is done? Of course, how a 3rd density being (such as ourselves) and a 2nd density being (example: feline) see "harm" are two completely different things. The same thing can probably be said for people who are cognitively impaired or perhaps in a state of psychosis. Under these circumstances, often people get medical treatment against their free will.

This is an interesting question as it involves not only the issue of free will, but also that of interactions between third density and 2nd density beings.

Here is my analysis for what it's worth.

I see this particular example as a matter of competition rather than free will. Your cat is comfy on your bed, but it is your bed, and you need to get a good night's sleep for the next day. Who has the right to the bed? On the question of need, I would say you do considering that you need the bed to get a good night's sleep and would not, in all likelihood, be as comfortable curled up in a chair or stretched out on the rug, as the cat would be.

If the cat brought the accusation to a court of law and accused you of violating its free will, I would guess that considering that it is you and not the cat who was asked to sign the lease or deed; and furthermore, considering it is you and not the cat who is legally responsible for the rent or morgage, the maintainence of the property, including the aforementioned bed I would say that a jury would award the use of the bed to you.

Ruth you are right about the 2nd density/3rd density interaction. I didn't consider that at the time. I think it was more the sudden awareness of the automation of my reaction to the situation.
At the time (to me) the cat was not violating my free will, but this does probably highlight my tendency to put other first even if it isn't the appropriate response (something I thought I'd dealt with...hm)
I saw the act of moving him as a violation of free will, possibly of the same magnitude as realising your medicating someone against there free will....the same impact at least. But as I say I'm realising from all your replies that its probably not that cut and dried. At the time however it was the idea of 'imposed (forced) movement' of another entity that hit me.

Webglider thanks for putting in those terms...it does highlight quite well (atleast to me) that this was not a 3rd to 3rd interaction. Perhaps it also reflects the projection of my own 3rd densityness onto a 2nd density animal in my analysis of the situation...

You are already violating his free will by keeping him as a pet in the first place. On the other hand if you just let him go, he'll most likely get himself into a lot of suffering and trouble and possibly not survive for long on his own. But that's kinda your fault since you chose to "own" a cat, bring him into an artificial human environment, and condition him to be helpless and unable to survive in the wild without relying on you.

Despite the personafication that they are given by some people, animals are not companions or friends or house-mates. They do possess those qualities to a degree, but first and foremost they are still animals, and they have no ability to understand your needs or choices as a human, and therefore no ability to "accomodate" you on their own free will.

Now, back to my “choice” and considerations in making the “choice” I made. Besides not actually wanting the responsibility of caring for an animal, now I added to that the awareness of “free will” and how accepting the responsibility of caring for an animal would be in violation of the animal’s free will.

I've never made a conscious decision to adopt and care for an animal -- they all seemed to choose me, and I just went along with that choice. The relationship between human and animal can be a deeply mysterious thing. Some of my biggest and most important life lessons I've learned from animals. For me, in many ways it is more like a cooperative partnership than a caregiving relationship....

You all bring up something I realise I wasn't aware of, and that was my choice in the matter of being responsible for the cat. The cat is my girlfriends daughters, who is now cared for by my girlfriend. What I was not aware of was my responsibility towards the animal. Thanks for pointing it out...it kind of unravels several things, mostly that I ignore my responsibilities by not being aware of them!
Being aware that you have a choice can be obvious...that you have one in every situation and that it involves your responsibility (or atleast appropriate response) towards all others in that situation is something new to me...atleast on this level. By being with my girlfriend I knew there where responsibilities that go with the relationship...caring for a cat was one I was not consciously aware of.....
I wonder how many of those choices and responsibilities we take for granted without thinking?

PepperFritz...since never having a pet (I'm not sure I like the word 'pet' any more, pet implying owned/kept) before my current relationship it has certainly been full of lessons from them.

I predict that with several repetitions, the cat will have taught you to feed it each time you find it curled up on the bed.

I think that's not a good strategy. If you keep doing this, before you know it the cat will be fat and very unhealthy, and on top of that he will walk all over you as he'll know he's in charge. You are already violating his free will by keeping him as a pet in the first place.

[....]
Hmm on the other hand, if you're living with a human room mate and he's laying on your bed and you need to go to bed, I also fully recommend picking him up and tossing him off. It works just as well with grown humans who are on a 2nd density intelligence level as it does with cats!

In any case you're a cat owner and I'm a cat owner, free will transgressions on both sides take place all the time.... the karma seems to balance out. As testament to the paw prints on my car bonnet/hood.

Cats don't have owners they have staff!

lol
Another very good point. Given the situation it seemed the best option available (least violation of free will?) but I didn't consider the trained response it may produce. I was thinking about this again at the weekend when having to shift the cat again...putting the food in the dish and using the bathroom..only to come back and find the dog curled up on the bed where the cat was!! The dog never does that!! 'What the hell? Off the bed!' he begrudgingly went back to the living room....then it twigged that the dog may have been aware of the 'trained response' and wanted to get food the same way...that was odd

It seems that you were very externally considerate of the cat by creating another situation where the cat could exercise its free will by opting for food over the coveted bed. Once the bed has been vacated, and the cat otherwise occupied, the bed belongs to you.

[...]

It gets more complicated with interactions between 3rd density beings. But it seems that if people showed the same level of external consideration to each other as you showed to your cat, the world would be a much better place.
Although people, like the hypothetical situation of the cat retraining you, may consciously exploit your consideration of them to work in their favor and against your own best interests.

I think it's a good thing as a general rule to externally consider everyone, but it's also important to know with whom you are dealing and protect yourself.

I have always been externally considerate (although not always consistantly) from an early age....but creeps in the 'externally considerate at the cost of myself', and I have been exploited because of it.
Learning the appropriate response, by learning how to read a person/situation was a bit of a tough lesson for me...that is on going. Learning about psychopaths in society has been a major eye opener, having read alot of psychology before even finding the site (although strangely nothing on psychopaths) it was a bit of an 'aha, thats what I'd been missing'

But I think it's a lot like a child. You don't just let a baby or a young child do whatever the heck he/she wants. It looks like in this world it's really impossible to bring up a child without taking control of the child, and then as it grows up slowly relinquishing that control and giving the child progressively more and more freedom. Another thing to consider here is the law of 3. There is good, there is evil, and then there's the specific situation that decides which is which.

In case of kids/animals, it's a very minimal free will violation with much greater benefit (in the case of an animal or a child, it's literally survival). If humans did not violate free will of children, the human race would be extinct within a generation.

I don’t view myself as the “owner” of the cat, just as I did not view myself as the “owner” of my children. And I can tell you that my children provided many “lessons” for me along the way; they are mature adults now and they still provide lessons. So, it’s not “a one way street” so to speak in the “lessons” department. My goal in raising my children was to help them learn and think for themselves so that eventually they would be able to intelligently follow whatever path they chose. Independent of me.

I would like to point out that by accepting (choosing) the responsibility of raising a child, one also relinquishes some “free will”.

Gosh, and then some! I'm currently coming to terms (after a year and a half) of just what that responsibility entails and what parts of me resent it. It's showing me how impossibly far away from being STO oriented I am. Three days without getting my own needs attended to and I get quite unreasonable - still a child myself! It's ironic that my freedom is so much curtailed by looking after a child, and yet I spend my whole time curtailing my child's freedom - "No Spoon Jnr, don't throw milk over the carpet". It's like we're mutual jailers. I bring the food, he brings the toys.

Scio your right about the law of 3....that is something I didn't consider at the time but am working on now. I've come up with a working hypothosis that may help when trying to find the appropriate response, but will have to read through Gurdjieff etc before I can either confirm or discard it.
I think you all bring up an important point about freewill in general here. And to me it does seem to be the appropriate response. To know that you need to curtail some free will without dominating it in order for the outcome not be disastrous for those involved (acknowledging your responsibility to the situation too).
Annette I totally agree...and again you bring up something I'd noticed but not acknowledged (I dot hat alot?) that being responsible for children relinquishes some of your own free will. Coming into a relationship with my girlfriends children has been eye opening to say the least.
I think then its about having a balanced exchange of free will, and being responsibly aware for how much you give or take.

It is rather simple and this is how you have kept it. A simple fact or action can go from "knowledge" then applying or noticing/observing it which somehow goes to "understanding" it.

[...]

The shock of the automatism can be quite an event eh? (As an aside I looked for a definition of Stopinder which is Gurdjieff's term for a "shock" and came across it in the the QFS glossary for Bose Einstein condensate.....which I was also looking at separately this morning. Weird!)

I then proceeded to work out the best way to move the cat of the bed....then it hit me
By moving the cat off the bed I'm violating its free will...the cat would quite happily stay there otherwise.
I opted offer it some fresh food, and put some more in its dish. He did eventually go for the food then.

am i seeing this correctly?

of your own concious free will, through the power of suggestion, you manipulated the cat into exercising it's own free will to do what you desired it to do - a desire it was unaware of. in other words you were awake and it was asleep to what was really going on.

For that moment, and on originally thinking back to that moment when posting the questions I was very aware of my automatic nature...and the automatic violation (even if only the tiniest violation) of free will I was about to commit. (perhaps its the awareness that I was giving/taking free will automatically...Without awareness) Thats the first time I've had a shock and known what it was...and tried to self observe at the time. Interesting reference to the Bose Einstein condesate.

Outcydr I'd like to think I was awake to the situation, but that may be wishful thinking on my part. It certainly gave me a point of reference I didn't have before. Post analysis through this thread shows I was not fully aware of everything, and I'm thinking it was more the shock of being aware of my lack of awareness/automation that stopped me and made me atleast partially aware (from limited data) to that particular situation......hmmm over intellectualising?
Small steps....

I didn't see that SOTT article, but what a strange serendipity that you should talk about cat purring and human health, as this has been on my mind a lot lately. A few weeks ago I was given a CD as a gift, by a musician named Tom Kenyon who claims to channel "healing sounds" from other "dimensions". I found the CD very interesting and evocative, but do not vouch for its claims. However, it was a jumping off point for some searching on the internet about any other material I might be able to find about sounds/vibrations and their connection with healing. While in the midst of this, one of my cats (Bella) started meowing at me from the bed, which is very unlike her, she only meows when she wants food or to be let out. When I didn't respond to her meowing, she came over and jumped on my computer and meowed right in my face, leaving me a little stunned. "What???" I said, rather annoyed. Then she jumped onto my chest and settled herself there, purring away rather loudly.

Now that left me really stunned, because Bella (unlike her brother Fritz) is NOT a lap cat, and does not usually like to be held. My first thought (irrational though it might be) was, "She's trying to tell me something -- but what?". Then it just popped into my head: cats... purring... healing.... So I typed those words into Google, which led me to a bevy of fascinating material on the subject. Thereafter, Bella started sleeping up beside my head (instead of my feet, her usual place), and I've been falling asleep to the sound of cat purring in my ear ever since.

I'm not someone who normally thinks my animals are "trying to tell me something" -- at least nothing beyond "I'm hungry", "I have to pee", or "Please scratch my belly" -- so this all was very unusual, to say the least.

From casual observation, I’ve concluded that 2nd density tries harder to communicate with us 3rd density creatures than we do with them for the most part. They seem to have greater success! Persistence maybe?? Those 2nd density creatures seem to “know” stuff and how they figure it out baffles me. They seem very tuned into “us”; our actions, behaviors, emotions. Their “internal clock” is incredibly precise. My cats have “told” me when it’s “bedtime.” They know I don’t see so well in the dark; they scurry out of the way when the lights go out. I do believe they attempt to communicate with us. I don’t think we are very adept at deciphering their communication as they are at deciphering ours, all things considered.

I don’t think there is any conclusive scientific evidence as to why cats purr. Again, from casual observation and my experience with cats and from scientific theories on the subject, I’ve theorized that cats may purr to calm themselves or to “gear down”, being as they are highly strung (tense) creatures. Although it would be considered “instinctive behavior” by us, it may have the effect of lowering their blood pressure. I would be interested in knowing, given this new-found scientific information, what cats tend to die from (primary cause). If the theory is correct, I suspect that the primary cause would not be heart failure (percentage-wise).

Since purring creates a vibration at a certain frequency, it may have the same sort of affect on a human. All energy is vibration and frequency from what we have learned from the C’s. I don’t think it is unreasonable to suspect there are energy transfers between 2nd and 3rd density creatures.

PepperFritz just my point of view, but I now find myself wary of CD's (amongst other things) that claim such things, I know you say you can't vouch for its authenticity, but had you considered it may be harmful? I know it may seem overly paranoid but I think its worth noting atleast. I will have to go and do research to find some data to back up that statement though.
Interesting about Bella and how she picked up on this. It does suggest that the CD was having an effect on you, again however, do you know what effect? Was her interaction protective? Did it stop you listening to the CD? Was there an energy transfer going on?
Its interesting that we are not as good at interpreting 2nd density...perhaps they are better at understanding us because they have no direct feedback (talking). Imagine being a deaf (or atleast not be able to understand many words) mute, how would you communication change? Would you be infinitely more aware of body language?
After reading your comments Annette I did try and look up cat causes of death...I didn't manage to find any statistics, but it seems they can suffer from many of the things we do (cancer, heart problems)...mentions of heart parasites made me squirm.

From my experience there are energy transfers in all interactions. On an interesting note I wouldn't say its reiki, but I do something similar (or use too). One of my friends cats use to have stiff joints, and I would sit on her sofa channelling energy to the cat. He'd sit there quite happily until he'd had enough (then he's gently claw my fingers if I didn't stop..lol). I did wonder if I was helping until he came looking for me the next few nights pushing my hands about until I started again.

I do not use animals as pets. However, I eat 2nd density creatures all the time. I have never wondered
about their free will. I didn't ask if they were willing to be eaten. I have strived to respect and acknowledge
their life as a gift and that some day I will be asked to give my own to life to this ray of creation. It makes
clear how beings of the 4th dimension might be having me or you for dinner. This is an STS world and cannot
be different. It is a reality of predator and prey. God has many faces, not all pleasant to behold.

I recently attended a bullfight in Sevilla, Spain. I did think about the relationship of the bulls, horses, spectators,
and men who fought and killed the bulls. This orginates in an ancient ritual sacrifice and thanksgiving for death
and its role in the STS world. I noticed a difference in the way the matadors treated the bulls. A young El
Columbiano disrespected the courage and strengh of the bull's life as he tapped the sword on the exhausted
bull's head. El Fundi, an older matador, held the killing stroke, risking his own life as the bull's horns threw
him into the air. His courage was a gesture to the courage and power of the fearless fighting bulls. These bulls
are bred to die in the ring. They have their testicles and run wild until the moment when they meet their fate
in the ring. We will meet the same fate, may I have the courage of the bulls. These wild bulls and their treatment contrasts

with the caged and force fed creatures mankind eats by the billions or locks in a
small apartment their entire lives. I have raised animals as a farmer and have hunted many years. Thanks,
Red Fox, for your noticing the animals and plants of 2nd density who contribute their lives to our STS world.

go2 I initially found your reply quite shocking...so I stopped to ask myself why.
Being able to see reality as it is, and how as a species we've restricted/manipulated 2nd density residents to our own end (and for sport) does highlight the STS nature of our reality...and made me notice my comfy little wishful thinking.
Being able to see things as they are by removing your projections onto reality is part of the challenge.
My parents helped incurage my curiosity from childhood, and as such I do probably acknowledge what some may just only notice. My dad when gardening would talk to any birds near by, and point out the worms he'd dug up. They'd usually notice.
Me and my sister have carried this on and I find myself greeting birds whenever one is near.
There responce is usually the most interesting thing.

If you think about it, we are constantly violating other people's free will. Its a good question to ask though. What is free will? And what are the consequences of violating it?

how many times have i been manupulated like this?
how many times have i manipulated others in this way?

plenty

Perhaps then it is part of being in a STS existance that 'free will' will be violated. Firstly I think you have to consider that none of us actually has free will until we have 'worked' to fuse our magnetic centre.
Perhaps we just get glimpses of it and have to practice it before we fully get it. Knowledge of free will becomes the knowing of free will.