Free Will and how not to violate it (realising your violating it)

[PepperFritz]

You all bring up something I realise I wasn't aware of, and that was my choice in the matter of being responsible for the cat.... Thanks for pointing it out...it kind of unravels several things, mostly that I ignore my responsibilities by not being aware of them! Being aware that you have a choice can be obvious...that you have one in every situation and that it involves your responsibility (or at least appropriate response) towards all others in that situation is something new to me....

When I said above that I didn't choose to adopt any of the animals in my life, that they chose me -- I just wanted to clarify that I meant that the INITIATION seemed to come from them. In each of the cases I was aware that I had an "opening" for another animal in my life (because I had lost one, or I felt that one of mine needed a companion), and that I was "putting it out there" that that such an opening was available. Then soon thereafter one would show up some serendipitous way, not as a result of my taking any specific action (like, going to an animal shelter, answering an ad in the paper, etc). I guess I agreed in advance to take in another animal, the animal showed up, and I took it in.

So, yes, it sometimes takes work to become aware of how we make either conscious or unconscious "choices". Whenever something, uh, INCONVENIENT, comes into my life, I try to take time to ask myself, "Did I in some way open myself to this, does this possibly represent an AVENUE towards something I consciously asked for? (A simplistic example: A couple begins opening themselves to the possibility of having children, and a stray dog shows up in their life to show them what kind of responsibility that will entail.) I'm not saying that one should just accept willy-nilly everything that comes into your life -- far from it -- but that one should take the time to examine events and establish the extent (or absence) of one's "choice" in the matter. The results can be surprising.

PepperFritz...since never having a pet (I'm not sure I like the word 'pet' any more, pet implying owned/kept) before my current relationship it has certainly been full of lessons from them.

They can be amazing teachers. I prefer the word "companion" myself. When speaking of my dog, I always say: "She's my dog and I'm her human". You'll find that in many ways you can feel just as much the "trained pet" of your animal as they do of you, hehe.

In any case you're a cat owner and I'm a cat owner, free will transgressions on both sides take place all the time.... the karma seems to balance out. As testament to the paw prints on my car bonnet/hood.

LOL, been there! I very much view my relationship with my animals as a "give and take" one that involves mutual respect of each others "creaturehood". I always say (and NOT facetiously), that "I allow my dog to be a dog, and she allows me to be a human". In order for the relationship to "work" for both of us, she has to respect certain needs that I have as a human, and visa versa. For instance, I need her to be instantly obedient in certain situations that involve safety -- either hers, mine, or someone else's -- but she does not have to be slavishly obedient to me in all situations, there can be negotiation. She needs me to provide her with access to the wild animal things she needs to do, like running, playing, chasing, attacking trees (don't ask), but obviously I'm not just going to let her run wild all day long, she has to accept limits. In my opinion, someone who expects an animal to be there to fulfill their human needs only should not have an animal companion; to me that is an animal slave, it is not a "relationship".

PepperFritz just my point of view, but I now find myself wary of CD's (amongst other things) that claim such things, I know you say you can't vouch for its authenticity, but had you considered it may be harmful?

Well, that goes without saying. I approach everything with a sense of caution, and accept nothing at face value. But neither do I shrink from careful experimentation. I gave the CD a listen, I liked it, found the sounds intriguing; listened to it quite often when I first received it, with no perceptible ill effects. The only thing I can say with 100% confidence is that I found it deeply relaxing, which I consider a good thing. I still use it from time to time for that purpose.

Interesting about Bella and how she picked up on this. It does suggest that the CD was having an effect on you, again however, do you know what effect? Was her interaction protective? Did it stop you listening to the CD? Was there an energy transfer going on?

Actually, the "communication" between us did not happen while I was listening to the CD, it was when I was doodling on my computer thinking about and doing searches about "sounds" and "healing". She seemed to pick up on what I was looking for.

Its interesting that we are not as good at interpreting 2nd density...perhaps they are better at understanding us because they have no direct feedback (talking). Imagine being a deaf (or atleast not be able to understand many words) mute, how would you communication change? Would you be infinitely more aware of body language?

That's one of the most amazing things I like to observe with my animals, their extremely well-tuned ability to read and correctly interpret non-verbal sounds, actions, body-language, etc. Animal behaviourists tell us that it is this ability alone that accounts for some animals seeming "telepathic" abilities, but sometimes I really wonder. My current dog (an extremely intelligent animal, part border-collie) often seems to know what I am thinking when I am sitting completely still and silent. Freaks me out sometimes.

From my experience there are energy transfers in all interactions. On an interesting note I wouldn't say its reiki, but I do something similar (or use too). One of my friends cats use to have stiff joints, and I would sit on her sofa channelling energy to the cat. He'd sit there quite happily until he'd had enough (then he's gently claw my fingers if I didn't stop..lol). I did wonder if I was helping until he came looking for me the next few nights pushing my hands about until I started again.

I have a friend who is a massage therapist, and he says that animals are incredibly receptive to massage. They instantly respond to it, whereas humans usually take time to "relax into it".

 

[go2]

They can be amazing teachers. I prefer the word "companion" myself. When speaking of my dog, I always say: "She's my dog and I'm her human". You'll find that in many ways you can feel just as much the "trained pet" of your animal as they do of you, hehe.

Humans and domesticated animals have a symbiotic relationship honed over parallel evolution. The notion that you are both trained pets or might I suggest machines in the service of each other, seems a startling and accurate insight.

That's one of the most amazing things I like to observe with my animals, their extremely well-tuned ability to read and correctly interpret non-verbal sounds, actions, body-language, etc. Animal behaviourists tell us that it is this ability alone that accounts for some animals seeming "telepathic" abilities, but sometimes I really wonder. My current dog (an extremely intelligent animal, part border-collie) often seems to know what I am thinking when I am sitting completely still and silent. Freaks me out sometimes

The border collie's very existence depends on serving man's needs, this accounts for their attention to their master's needs, or they would disappear, these working dogs were bred by mankind for herding purposes, but today they are mostly involved in an unequal relationship with man as a companion.

She needs me to provide her with access to the wild animal things she needs to do, like running, playing, chasing, attacking trees (don't ask), but obviously I'm not just going to let her run wild all day long, she has to accept limits. In my opinion, someone who expects an animal to be there to fulfill their human needs only should not have an animal companion; to me that is an animal slave, it is not a "relationship".

How is the domesticated border collie a wild animal, when its very existence depends upon an unequal relationship, it which humans attribute human qualities to animals? I admire your obvious caring and respect
for the animals you have assumed responsibility for. I would that humanity would stop the enslavement and
torture of animals in agribusiness. I too have learned much from observing and caring for farm animals, in this
sense they were teachers.

I don’t think there is any conclusive scientific evidence as to why cats purr.

I have observed cats for more than fifty years, it appears to me they purr when contented,
much like humans when their desires are temporily fulfilled.

Two years ago I was walking in a corn field and saw a cat without a tail about 20 feet away, and then three house cat sized cats without tails, and then a large, sturdy mother bobcat. They froze for about fifteen seconds before realizing they were spotted, and they turned and ran. I have heard bobcats scream in the night but had
never seen one. This elusive and magnificent animal is truely WILD. I considered it a gift to see a family of
bobcats, untamed and free.

 

[PepperFritz]

The border collie's very existence depends on serving man's needs, this accounts for their attention to their master's needs, or they would disappear, these working dogs were bred by mankind for herding purposes, but today they are mostly involved in an unequal relationship with man as a companion.

Yes, purebred border collies are are not "fulfilled" unless they are employed as the working dogs they were bred to be. I consider it cruel to keep one as a "pet" in an urban environment, unless one is extremely dedicated to their very high exercise/stimulation needs in an organized dog sport like agility or flyball. However, my dog is not purebred, she's crossed with a Brittany Spaniel, which gives her a less-intense temperament; I also live in a semi-rural environment and am very attentive to her needs. And she to mine: I have an inflammatory auto-immune disease that comes and goes, which would be a lot worse if I did not discipline myself to undertake moderate exercise on a daily basis. In that sense I very much "need" Pepper, and consider her to be a physiotherapist of sorts. If she did not "push me" to keep to a certain schedule of outings, I highly doubt I would do it on my own.

How is the domesticated border collie a wild animal, when its very existence depends upon an unequal relationship, it which humans attribute human qualities to animals?

You are quite right, I used the wrong word entirely. There is nothing whatsoever "wild" about Pepper; in fact, I often describe her active physical behaviour as very "theatrical" and "put on", like she's playing at being "wild", for both her own and my amusement. I should have said that she needs me to provide her with access to the "dog" things she needs to do....

I admire your obvious caring and respect for the animals you have assumed responsibility for. I would that humanity would stop the enslavement and torture of animals in agribusiness.

The use of animals in agribusiness is deeply painful to me as well, one of the many ways in which I consider humans to be barbaric monsters. The casual cruelty towards what most consider "dumb animals" -- by people who would otherwise consider themselves to be "humane" -- is beyond my comprehension.

I have observed cats for more than fifty years, it appears to me they purr when contented, much like humans when their desires are temporily fulfilled.

Cats are also known to purr when they are extremely traumatized and/or very ill, so they also seem to have the ability to use it as a "self-calming" method.

Two years ago I was walking in a corn field and saw a cat without a tail about 20 feet away, and then three house cat sized cats without tails, and then a large, sturdy mother bobcat. They froze for about fifteen seconds before realizing they were spotted, and they turned and ran. I have heard bobcats scream in the night but had never seen one. This elusive and magnificent animal is truely WILD. I considered it a gift to see a family of bobcats, untamed and free.

Wow. Yes, a beautiful sight to see animals in the wild. On my rural hikes with the dogs I regularly come across deer and coyotes, but never something as exotic as a bobcat. Though I too have heard them scream at night. We lost one of our domestic cats last year (she just didn't come home one night), and I have often wondered whether she might have had a run-in with a bob-cat. Before that we used to leave their cat door open for them to go out night or day, but now we make sure they're in before our bedtime. The older cat (Bella) is not very happy about that, but the younger one (Fritz) came to us as a kitten after the "curfew" was imposed and has never known different. It's one of the "safety" limits I felt I had to impose, and I feel badly for Bella when she protests at the nightly closing of the cat door. But one of the added "benefits" to the humans is fewer live mice being brought home as playthings....

 

[Annette1]

This has been an enjoyable and informative thread. Thank you for posing the question, Redfox. In my circumstance, it was rather timely. I have reflected on much of what has been posted here with regard to examining all the nuances of the free will question.

I thought back to the time when I was raising my children and how I was handling the “free will” issues, although I wasn’t actually defining it as free will then. It was my goal to allow my children as much space as they could handle for their level of maturity; safely and sanely. I realized that I began that fairly early on. Once a child exhibits an elementary reason/logic processing is forming you have the beginning of “allowing” them to express their free will. They just need “help” carrying the logic to the “most probable outcome” (conclusion) in the early years.

An early example: A few times my children came to me (individually) with the “reasoning/logic” that since a sibling had or was given something, they should be allowed to have that something as well. I would pause for a moment and then tell my child, “OK, that’s do-able. You can have whatever your sister gets.” I would watch their face light up. I could also see that they were a bit surprised at how easily they were granted the “demand/request”. Then, bringing their reason/logic to a “conclusion” I would add, “Just remember that when your sister receives a punishment, you will receive that as well.” In short, they saw the “flaw” in their own reasoning/logic and THEY made the decision to drop the demand/request.

Of course, this becomes more difficult and more involved as children mature. Sometimes, it’s a matter of standing back and allowing the child to learn from his/her mistake. I think this a more painful process for the parent than it is for the child. -- ANOTHER lesson in free will.

And, Redfox, I can’t even count the number of times I noticed something, but didn’t actually acknowledge it!! And when I do, I’m like…how did I miss that???!!

For the animal observers: How many different sounds is an animal capable of? (Just one of the reasons I believe they attempt to communicate with us.)

And a P.S. for The Spoon: Many people told me to enjoy your children while they’re young, as the time will pass quickly. They said this a lot during the “terrible-twos”. I had a difficult time believing that then, but now realize IT’S TRUE.

Thank you all for sharing your perspectives.

 

[PepperFritz]

For the animal observers: How many different sounds is an animal capable of? (Just one of the reasons I believe they attempt to communicate with us.)

Well, it's a fact that the "wild" versions of dogs and cats (e.g. wolves, feral cats, etc.) are not nearly as vocal as their domestic counterparts. Many of the vocalizations that we associate with adult dogs and cats are made only by young animals in the wild, and are "grown out of" as they mature. In that and other ways, humans have bred dogs and cats to have "puppy" and "kitten" characteristics as adults. Undomesticated animals also rely on body language a lot more; but since humans are not as skilled in that area, domestic animals have had to develop more vocalizations to communicate with us.

Researchers indicate that domestic dogs are capable of understanding between 200 and 300 human words, about the equivalent of a human 2-year old. I've not seen an estimated number regarding the number of sounds that they are capable of making. I think that's because it varies widely with the breed of dog (different breeds are developed to do different things), the intelligence level of the dog/breed (some breeds are more intelligent than others), and the personality of the animal (some are just more "talkative" than others). I would imagine this applies to domestic cats as well.

A fascinating book that I recommend is Stanley Coren's How to Speak Dog: Mastering the Art of Dog-Human Communication, particularly the sections that discuss the "grammar" of dog language. Dogs actually have the ability to put various standard vocalizations together in specific combinations in order to communicate specific messages, much as we put words together in sentences. So the "meaning" behind a specific sound changes according to the other sounds it is combined with, and with the order in which the sounds are put together.

My dog Pepper is a border-collie cross and the most intelligent dog I have ever had; she's also the most vocal. In the four years she's lived with me, I've seen her become more and more vocal over time, developing some extremely complex and subtle "sounds" to communicate more and more subtle feelings and emotions. I wonder sometimes if that is because I am a very "verbal" person myself and/or pay a lot more attention to (and thus am more responsive to) the subtle shadings of her "sounds" than the average person would, thus encouraging her to develop them. In the two years that we have lived with my cousin and her dog Joey (a Bichon Frise), I have seen him become a much more vocal dog as well, adopting some of his sounds from Pepper.

The extent of our cats' vocalizations seem to be purely "personality" related, something I find endlessly fascinating. Our older cat, Bella, is not very vocal, but has the most hilarious range of "body language" I've ever seen in a cat, including a habit of melodramatically flinging herself on the floor like a pouty 2-year old whenever she doesn't get her way. Our younger cat, Fritz, is another story. He is the most vocal cat I have ever encountered; he not only talks to us humans, he also talks to Bella and the dogs, and to himself when he's all alone. He even vocalizes in his sleep, which is incredibly endearing.

In the end, the animals in our household seem to have no trouble whatsoever making themselves understood and/or understanding human communication.

 

[Annette1]

My dog Pepper is a border-collie cross and the most intelligent dog I have ever had; she's also the most vocal. In the four years she's lived with me, I've seen her become more and more vocal over time, developing some extremely complex and subtle "sounds" to communicate more and more subtle feelings and emotions. I wonder sometimes if that is because I am a very "verbal" person myself and/or pay a lot more attention to (and thus am more responsive to) the subtle shadings of her "sounds" than the average person would, thus encouraging her to develop them. In the two years that we have lived with my cousin and her dog Joey (a Bichon Frise), I have seen him become a much more vocal dog as well, adopting some of his sounds from Pepper.

I believe that the reason for the "vocalness" of the animals is due to all the factors you've cited. Ideally, when accepting the responsibility of "caretaker" for a 2nd density creature, part of the responsibility (as with children) is to provide stimulation and instruction. Otherwise the possibility of the creature becoming bored and neurotic increases, imho.

Thanks for sharing that information, PepperFritz. The antics and “communications” of our 2nd density companions is instructive in some senses and amusing to observe.

I’ve had the opportunity to watch the interactions of my daughter's three cats. There were only two; a 14 year old cat and a 2 year old cat. An eight month old cat was added. Well, the 14yo was none too happy with the new arrangement and wanted nothing to do with the youngest cat. The youngest cat has the most polite and humble demeanor I’ve ever witnessed. When the older cat came near, the younger cat would immediately lie down; submissive posture. This was to no avail as far as “making friends” for quite some time. The older cat would also plunk herself down at the end of the hall seemingly to “deny access” to a part of the house for the younger cat. Now, the 2yo cat had made friends and was quite happy to have a “playmate”. He also seem to recognize what the older cat was doing. I watched him walk slowly and partially sideways toward the older cat as she jealously guarded the end of the hallway. His fur was up on his back and his tail fur was all puffed out. He seemed to be “telling” the older cat he wasn’t going to tolerate her behavior. The older cat retreated. It was interesting to observe how the animals conducted themselves and resolved their differences. The younger cat always seems to “announce” her presence in a manner that appears polite in the sense of not startling anyone. She sort of makes a “brrrpt” sound. She did/does it with the other cats as well as the humans.

Since landing here, not only am I observing myself, my “awareness” level has been raised and a side benefit is being more observing of “others” as well.

 

[PepperFritz]

I’ve had the opportunity to watch the interactions of my daughter's three cats. There were only two; a 14 year old cat and a 2 year old cat. An eight month old cat was added. Well, the 14yo was none too happy with the new arrangement and wanted nothing to do with the youngest cat....

Dogs tend to resolve their "pack" differences/positions in short order, but it can take a lot longer with cats. I've seen too many people "give up" way to quickly when trying to introduce a new cat, not realizing that even the most violent of "opposition" will usually resolve itself over time.

Bella was extremely "stand-offish" with Fritz when he first arrived; she was a year-old, and he was only five-months. Plus she had only recently lost her litter-mate sister Willow (who just didn't come home one day) and was still missing her. I may be projecting, but it seemed like she wanted to make clear to Fritz that he could never take her place. But Fritz tirelessly ingratiated himself to her, and within a week she had succumbed to his charms. Now they are best buddies, and she is incredibly tolerant of his sometimes pushy behaviour....

 

[Annette1]

For all who found interest in this thread, you may find this interesting as well. I received this in a newsletter from Dr. Mercola today. I was thinking as I watched the video how little some people care about other humans, so it was not a surprise to learn they cared less and thought less about animals.

_http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/09/11/extraordinary-creative-and-psychic-powers-of-animals.aspx?source=nl

 

[Jones]

Another angle and one that has been touched on here: I believe that I've had my most profound learning and there was something much deeper about the relationship and level of understanding/communication from animals that chose to be with me of their own free will. I've had this happen a number of times in my life although I've more often been a pet owner than not, but the most significant times were those when I was either not in the position of having a pet or for various reasons had chosen not to have one, but got chosen by one anyway.

Another thing that seems to be common to these events was my own balanced and accepting emotional state/psych.

The lesson in it for me was that if something/one truly chose to be/share with me their own free will, without any expectation, control, or manipulation on my part...then that which was given or shared was so much more beautiful/touching or profound in so many ways with a greater depth of understanding.

I sense that there is more to this lesson that hasn't yet touched my awareness, and despite knowing this I can also recognise where I mar the potential beauty by my own expectations, control or manipulation.