Free will vs "lessons"

[webglider]

Re: Free will vs "lessons"

Hi Nickelbleu, this is the first time I've come upon this thread, and maybe I'm responding to something you said that you already figured out. This is what you said on April 4, 2008:

And it has been my scope in the last 10 or more years to be more accepting of the world around me. But that is an almost impossible task, if you don't have the proper "philosophical background". Because there is so much hatred, injustice illogic and violence around, that one wonders on what grounds you might accept that. Not being affiliated to any religion I wasn't able to "turn my other cheek", so how on earth are you going to accept all this.

To my understanding, the difficulty you're having revolves around the word "accept". I agree with your revulsion in relation to the "...hatred, injustice, illogic and violence..." but one has to accept that these things exist because they do.

One does not have to accept them as being okay though. One can try to extirpate them in one's own behavior, in the part of the world in which one has influence. But just trying to eradicate them in oneself is really pretty hard.

Could it be possible that we struggle with the issues of Freewill and Determinism because we are attempting to see them in their absolute sense? Trying to understand something as a thing in itself, when it only exists when something else is in place?

Hopefully, the following illustration will clarify what I mean:
If you went to an unfamiliar city, took a stroll thru the park and deliberately noticed all that there was to see, then at some point you would have a complete mental map of that park, exactly the way it is, and you could then determine all the possible paths you could take thru or around the park. You are aware of all the possible choices for paths because your map is accurate, unified and non-contradictory. This is opposed to someone who walks thru the park everyday and never notices much and doesn't have a complete picture. If such a person were to panic and need to flee, he would not know what his options were and would probably take a path that could lead to even greater danger. The key is, he wouldn't know exactly what to do because his awareness/knowledge of the park is so limited.His freewill mostly exists as unrealized potential and is currently limited to the paths he knows about or can see in the midst of emotional difficulties. His freewill is not a piece of the puzzle of the park, it's in the paths that are outlined by the way the pieces fit together.

Shutting out what we don't like because it doesn't confirm our sense of reality is like choosing not to explore all the paths in the park. The paths are there whether we choose to walk on them or not, but if something wicked is walking down one of them, we won't feel the need to be vigilent because we have no knowledge that a path is even there.

 

[genero81]

Re: Free will vs "lessons"

Or, another possabillity. The individual has an "aim" and understands all aspects of the park pertinent to that aim. Once executed, the park ceases to be important.
An individual asleep is prone to the law of accident. But even so, knowledge and awareness play a part in the outcome, which lead to a lesson learned, or repeated.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Free will vs "lessons"

Thanks all of you you have answered to this post - I had forgotten about it ...

I've read Mouravieff in the meantime and he talks about many of these concepts. I agree with Buddy, that Free Will is more a potential then a "reality" in most peoples lives. Because often, when you need to make a decision and you agonize about which way to take - once the decision is made and you look back, it often feels as if the decision never could have been 50-50, but more like 99-1 in favor of the way taken. Meaning, that most decisions have a truly "mechanical" and almost inevitable conclusion. Not sure that really makes sense to you ...

I really like the picture of the park and the different paths. Still much to ponder ... but thanks for your contribution.

 

[Gertrudes]

Re: Free will vs "lessons"

Since I acknowledged the material written by Laura, my vision of the world went upside down.
There are a couple of things in which my understanding is lacking, which is particularly in regards to the interference of STS in our world (and other worlds as well). This is not surprising, since it was something that I had just not acknowledged at any point in my life. I have been struggling to understand something that came to surface after having read this excerpt from Windmill Knight in the EE thread:

Also, I've noticed that DCM puts me into difficult situations because I need to learn from them, but is usually very kind and gentle in not letting me break or collapse completely. Like, I will have periods of poverty but I haven't yet had to sleep on the street, nor go a day without eating (of course I don't discard those things happening if that's my lesson). Or like my father used to say rather humorously: "God yawns but does not sleep."

There is also the fact that "God moves in mysterious ways". Dark and depressive periods can lead to wonderful insights, for example, and in the end I'm almost grateful that I went through all that trouble!

Another thing is that the Cs did say that prayer requests are balanced vs lessons profile and granted accordingly so as to not interfere with those lessons - or something along those lines. Maybe I'll find the quote.

I also recall having read somewhere, and apologies because I can't remember where in the forum, that DCM wouldn't present us with anything that we wouldn't possibly be able to handle.

I'm trying to integrate this concept with which I am more familiar, since it was part of my previous world view, with the idea of constant interference of 4D STS and soul smashing.
When I think of people who go through wars, are raped, tortured and so on, I am led to think that if it would have been me, my being would have likely been deformed and crippled beyond help due to the severe trauma. Somethings are just so horrific that I have difficulty understanding that this is part of their lesson, particularly when considering that STS can and does violate free will as they please.

But another part of me tells me that I'm just being too clouded by my emotions, by my anger towards these events, that does not allow me to see them from a less narrow point of view. This part of me tells me also that I can't possibly see the grand plan of things because I'm simply not DCM, and my world view is limited to 3D.
Everything happens for a reason, randomness as we conceive it, is not how the universe works, or so it seems. Following this line of thought, when such unspeakable things happen to certain people, I am led to think that they were either invited by them, not necessarily when living, it could have been when in 5D, or there was, somewhere, a lack of awareness that created a whole from which STS was able to infiltrate fully.

Following this line of thought, STS free will violation is part of our lessons, therefore, in a certain sense, part of the natural flow of life. I guess that my question is, does this violation become, at any point, not part of our lessons but something else (not sure what)? I'm thinking of extreme cases, soul smashing being an example. Well, it can't be in a way, because all there is is lessons really...but I feel that I'm missing something here...

I'm struggling to integrate free will violation with soul lessons. Is the former always part of the later?

This might have either been discussed here on the forum, or on any part of The Wave that I need to re read. Apologies if this is just noise . I would, however, be grateful if anyone could either point out any relevant threads (I'm currently reading A Soul Smashing Event! ) or share their views on my reasoning.

 

[obyvatel]

Re: Free will vs "lessons"

This thread Free Will vs "lessons" looks relevant to this topic.

 

[shijing]

Re: Free will vs "lessons"

This thread Free Will vs "lessons" looks relevant to this topic.

I think you're right, obyvatel, and I just merged the topics.

 

[Gertrudes]

Re: Free will vs "lessons"

Thank you obyvatel for leading me to this thread, and thank you Shijing for having merged both topics. Nicklebleu's question is indeed relevant to my own. I'm pondering this issue from different angles now.

Relatively to Nicklebbleu's question, my current line of thought goes along the lines of what Bud and Anart said in this thread. Anart said that one's free will is inversely proportional to how mechanical one is, which goes hand in hand with Bud's park analogy. The more knowledge we have of the situation at hand and of the options we have, the greater the choices since we we won't be as conditioned by our own limited knowledge.

I also think that karma does not excluded the possibility of free will, and vice versa. Free will, as I understand it, allows for informed decisions which, by their intrinsic nature, will always carry consequences and lessons to be learned, often leading to Karma, osit.
Free will seems for me to exist within parameters, as a few other members have said, the greater the consciousness of the being in question, the more choices he is able to see, and the closer to true free will he will get.

Perhaps fate can partly be derived from the decisions of one's higher self in a pre incarnational state, which in a 3D state will be seen as constrictions but are, in reality, the shape that decisions made closer to a state of free will, take in 3D.

My question focuses more on the role of STS in our soul lessons and free will. How to integrate STS constant interferences within our free will and soul lessons?
Thinking of children that are born in abuse, and grow in abuse. Some of them stand no chance of ever developing an healthy emotional and mental state in their lifetime. Some have suffered such tremendous abuse that leads me to wonder whether their own beings have not been severely deformed as a consequence. Could we possible have made a pre incarnational choice to either endure such things, or align ourselves with an STS pole that is reflected in such violations? Would those severely abusive STS interferences be part of our soul lesson plan?
Somethings are so horrendous that I can only think of soul smashing. How to integrate that within one's own lesson plan? Maybe we can't, and we are just purely at the mercy of this STS dynamic and it is up to us to learn how separate ourselves from it, if it is our choice to do so.
How then to distinguish both? How to know when DCM is simply presenting us with our lessons, with situations that we can endure, from when we are just being used and abused by beings that could not care less? Perhaps learning that is part of our lesson plan.

Apologies for so many questions, I'm just trying to get my head around this issue

 

[obyvatel]

Re: Free will vs "lessons"

Here are some thoughts on this topic based on my current understanding.

My question focuses more on the role of STS in our soul lessons and free will. How to integrate STS constant interferences within our free will and soul lessons?

Human beings are in a STS state by default on this earth. Those who consciously chose (at some higher level) out of free will to incarnate here would have done so with a good understanding of the reality of this existence - including the possibility of what you call constant STS interference. A general pre-incarnative plan could possibly be to learn to recognize the STS dynamic in its various manifestations. The STS interferences work on someone till the person learns to recognize them for what they are. This discernment of the STS dynamic is applicable to both the external world as well as the internal world - the STSness that is inside resonates with the STSness that is outside and the soul lesson may well be the discernment of both.

[quote author=Gertrudes]
Thinking of children that are born in abuse, and grow in abuse. Some of them stand no chance of ever developing an healthy emotional and mental state in their lifetime. Some have suffered such tremendous abuse that leads me to wonder whether their own beings have not been severely deformed as a consequence. Could we possible have made a pre incarnational choice to either endure such things, or align ourselves with an STS pole that is reflected in such violations? Would those severely abusive STS interferences be part of our soul lesson plan?
[/quote]
This may be related to accumulated karmic burden. Thus in some cases, it could be a "purging of guilt" directed by higher pre-incarnational choice (as I believe the C's said). In the absence of an individuated higher self (like the OPs for example), the karmic payback can unfold according to some universal laws that we may not necessarily understand. There may be a general theme of karmic debt being repaid but the specifics of how it comes about may vary and may depend on the level of consciousness in the present incarnation. If a karmic debt related to hurting another is to be resolved, then for a person who is relatively more conscious and empathetic may experience suffering by witnessing and intensely grieving an incident of similar nature which may not involve him/her directly at all. For another person who is less conscious, such a karmic burden may be resolved through direct physical/emotional suffering at the hands of an aggressor. This is one possibility, numerous others exist as well.
The 4D STS are also subject to the laws of the universe and while they may have more knowledge than us to manipulate reality, there are limits to their powers. I have doubts if they can cause irreparable damage to someone's soul unless that too was in accordance with some higher universal laws which they do not control - but that is just my take on it.


[quote author=Gertrudes]
How then to distinguish both? How to know when DCM is simply presenting us with our lessons, with situations that we can endure, from when we are just being used and abused by beings that could not care less? Perhaps learning that is part of our lesson plan.
[/quote]
Perhaps all are lessons. We need to see the dynamic of a particular situation by acquiring knowledge and developing discernment. Then we can make a conscious choice whether to endure suffering - maybe for some higher purpose outside of ourselves that benefit others - or walk away from a situation if it only feeds the predator inside of us and others. It is a hard task and we suffer either way till we are able to see things as they are from an objective point of view - but that as you said is perhaps part of our lesson plan.
fwiw

 

[Gertrudes]

Re: Free will vs "lessons"

Obyvatel,

Thank you. Your very clear explanation really helped to answer my doubts. Actually all of them :)

As I see it now, STS is part of DCM such as STO is, therefore EVERY interaction within each and between both, is an opportunity for lessons, choices, and growth.

The 4D STS are also subject to the laws of the universe and while they may have more knowledge than us to manipulate reality, there are limits to their powers. I have doubts if they can cause irreparable damage to someone's soul unless that too was in accordance with some higher universal laws which they do not control - but that is just my take on it.

I think that you're very right. After having posted the particular excerpt that raised your comment above, something didn't feel quite right about what I had posted. I think that my emotional attachment to the idea of severe cruelty was, for me, the issue.

Anyway, your reasoning seems correct to me, in that there are some universal laws, and I think that whatever happens, happens because of an interaction where each partie involved has a role determined by his/her present state of being.
For example, lets say that we have an "attacker" and a "victim". They did not become so just because of some random underlying universal dynamic, but quite the opposite. That interaction took that specific shape, because on some level, all their actions and choices led them to assume those roles at that particular moment, within that particular lifetime.
This is how I see it at the moment. Thanks again for helping me clear this out.

 

[Windmill knight]

Re: Free will vs "lessons"

Another thing is that the Cs did say that prayer requests are balanced vs lessons profile and granted accordingly so as to not interfere with those lessons - or something along those lines. Maybe I'll find the quote.

I also recall having read somewhere, and apologies because I can't remember where in the forum, that DCM wouldn't present us with anything that we wouldn't possibly be able to handle.

Hi Gertrudes. I found the quote I was referring to. It's not exactly as I remembered, but I think the sense is still the same.

Q: (L) Is there any special power or advantage in praying in the name of Jesus?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Well, if he didn't die and release his spirit into the earth plane, how is this power conferred?
A: Prayers go to him.
Q: (L) And what does he do when he hears the prayers?
A: Determines their necessity against background of individual soul development.

I think that you're very right. After having posted the particular excerpt that raised your comment above, something didn't feel quite right about what I had posted. I think that my emotional attachment to the idea of severe cruelty was, for me, the issue.

While I agree with what obyvatel has written, I also want to say that there is nothing wrong with feeling all the emotions you experience in regards to cruelty - on the contrary! It means that you have a heart that cares, and it can recognize darkness because it also knows and loves the light.

Even if there is an ultimate 'goodness' and Reason for everything that exists, the fact is that as human beings our glimpses of that Reason are just that - glimpses. We will never be entirely satisfied with these questions while we remain human, I think. But that is alright, because that is the role we have been assigned to play in the Cosmic Drama, and because the constant emotional friction of the 'whys?' is the fuel for the seeker and the warrior. In fact, I think that we are invited to approach the Light (the Truth) by following the path of opening our eyes and hearts to the suffering of others. If we completely satisfied ourselves with our glimpses of the Universe, perhaps we would soon believe that 'all is well' and there is nothing else to do except have a jolly good time for as much as we can - which is self-calming and leads to going back to sleep.

I think that as 3D beings we can only love DCM by admitting that there is a LOT about Her that we do not understand - but accepting Her as She is anyway, because that is who She IS. I also think that this is where true faith plays a role. That is, we have faith in the fact that there is an Ultimate Reason which is good, so it is worth learning about reality, even if it hurts to contemplate some of its aspects. It is worth not collapsing into despair in the face of horror, because there is also beauty to care for - even if we don't always see it.

So take care of yourself too because you (and everyone else) are the thing through which DCM is learning about Herself. That is why we cannot surrender to despair and darkness. But that is also why we cannot ignore it.

I hope that made some sense! These are things I think about a lot myself and obviously I don't have all the answers. Not nearly there. ;)

 

[obyvatel]

Re: Free will vs "lessons"

I think that you're very right. After having posted the particular excerpt that raised your comment above, something didn't feel quite right about what I had posted. I think that my emotional attachment to the idea of severe cruelty was, for me, the issue.

While I agree with what obyvatel has written, I also want to say that there is nothing wrong with feeling all the emotions you experience in regards to cruelty - on the contrary! It means that you have a heart that cares, and it can recognize darkness because it also knows and loves the light.

Even if there is an ultimate 'goodness' and Reason for everything that exists, the fact is that as human beings our glimpses of that Reason are just that - glimpses. We will never be entirely satisfied with these questions while we remain human, I think.

Yes - feeling sad, angry, frustrated in the face of all the injustice and cruelty of the world is required to progress on the path. What I have observed in myself is that the energy aroused by such emotion is hijacked by the intellect which seeks a reason and then goes into extrapolating the situation and running in loops until the original impulse is dissipated. As associative thoughts continue seeking explanations, it often stops at the 4D STS level. When confronted with the idea of beings much more powerful than us (4D STS) manipulating our reality, it is quite easy to fall into despair - and despair is not conducive to Work -osit. If despair is avoided, I find I can better feel the emotions aroused by injustice and cruelty and stay with them. So I find it useful to remember that even the seemingly all powerful controllers of our domain are not really all powerful and subject to higher universal laws. This acts as a shield against despair and for me that is the main practical value of such ideas. Using such ideas to explain away things and adopt a "all is well" perspective is not conducive to Work - as Illion says in Darkness Over Tibet that would be the hubris of a created being putting itself at level with the Creator.

 

[Gertrudes]

Re: Free will vs "lessons"

Thanks for the quote from the session with the Cs Windmill Knight. It helped to clarify it further.

While I agree with what obyvatel has written, I also want to say that there is nothing wrong with feeling all the emotions you experience in regards to cruelty - on the contrary! It means that you have a heart that cares, and it can recognize darkness because it also knows and loves the light.

Yes, I am aware of that. I think that those feelings were and are, rightfully felt, but it is important to understand when not to allow them to drive me. What happened is that for a moment there I lost faith. And because I lost it, my emotions towards this issue verged a deep sense of frustration, hopelessness and despair. That is when I think that my emotions just took over, I stopped seeing the other side of the question, I stopped seeing that All is part of DCM, All happens for a reason.

If we completely satisfied ourselves with our glimpses of the Universe, perhaps we would soon believe that 'all is well' and there is nothing else to do except have a jolly good time for as much as we can - which is self-calming and leads to going back to sleep.

Very true. It is important to accept our limits, and understand that we can only see so much.

I think that as 3D beings we can only love DCM by admitting that there is a LOT about Her that we do not understand - but accepting Her as She is anyway, because that is who She IS. I also think that this is where true faith plays a role. That is, we have faith in the fact that there is an Ultimate Reason which is good, so it is worth learning about reality, even if it hurts to contemplate some of its aspects. It is worth not collapsing into despair in the face of horror, because there is also beauty to care for - even if we don't always see it.

It makes much sense.
Obyvatel also makes a good point on how to deal with one's emotions towards 4D STS.

A couple of months ago I struggled with this issue and could barely deal with my anger when thinking about acts of severe cruelty. That's when I felt angry with DCM.
I've been working towards acceptance. Currently I think that one can only work towards accepting the fact that things are as they are, DCM is who She is. but that doesn't mean that we are in agreement with specific acts of cruelty in this 3D world.
As for myself, I'm trying to work in meeting my ability to accept DCM for what Is, with an ability to see evil (also part of DCM) for what it is, and acknowledging my stance and feelings towards it. It doesn't mean allowing my feelings to ride me up to the point of mad anger or despair, but it also doesn't mean to numb them down believing in an illusion of complete understanding and acceptance, as if I were DCM myself. Similar to what Obyvatel mentioned with the example of Darkness over Tibet.

It is a slow work in progress, and it is a double edged sword at times. It is something to be taken gradually, osit, understanding how much truth and evil one can acknowledge before allowing uncontrolled anger or even resentment to settle in.

 

[laststop]

Re: Free will vs "lessons"

Hi all,

I am reading through the wave material and struggle with the following:

One one hand the C's say, that everyone of us has Free Will, and that it cannot be violated. That in itself is a pretty interesting statement. Science has recently started to ponder the issue whether Free Will exists at all. Or to put it differently, that our Universe may be deterministic. Now I am not a staunch supporter of Determinism at all, because for me it philosophically doesn't add up. Life, the Universe and all seem to be much too complex to just follow a certain program - it kind of renders everything meaningless, fills everything with void. But Free Will doesn't seem to be overly present in one's life either, as we are blown hither and tither by circumstances, hopes, fears, peer pressure etc.

One the other hand, there is the notion, that you are following a "path", that you have a "role to play", that you need to "learn your lessons" in order to progress. Which suggests kind of "a higher influence". A driving force that is out of my control - or beyond control of my Free Will.

These two things for me are contradictory - or opposed to each other. What is the reconciliation? Any comment greatly appreciated!

I have been trying to work this out for years! My opinion is that we have limited free will here. VERY limited for some more than others. Free will means that your FREE TO DO YOUR WILL! Not God's not your wife's not your neighbors or your govenment. We may have total free will in the higher dimension but not here. Create your own reality is partly bologne at least in the flesh. We should have more free will here but it has been highjacked by STS entites. They are free to mess with us any way they please. We are just food for them as a chicken is for us. Do you really care about a chicken?

How can you have free will when you don't even know who you are or where you came from or what you are doing here. Earth must have the most f-ed up history of any planet! Full of secrets, lies, deception, war, blood baths etc. This is not a loving place! This is serious hard core shit!

It is crazy when you think about it. We were of a high dimension with God in peace, we must have been bored with peace and love and such so we decided to come to the lower dimensions to experience pain and anguish. The so-called fall. If free will truly exist would we not at least KNOW we did this? I don't know if I have lived past lifes or not, I don't know if their is even other races outside of Earth. I have not had any such experiences but believe on total faith from all the reseacrhing and life evidence I have experienced. I believe what I believe cause life does not make any sense to me. So the opposite must be true. I go with the George Castanza moto. Do the opposite of what you think and you probably right on! Of course not in everything but in general. If you think about it to be free you MUST do the opposite of what the norm is or be a slave. The flesh is a dead end road if you are here to play.


Higher self = free will
3d self = munipulated slave in hope of freedom with limited will, yeah just will no free. Yeah and hope is the worst four letter word in my case. Hope is want and want is unfufilled desire. Hope is a terrible addiction. I want to live in a world with no hope. Sounds crazy right but if you have nothing to hope for then you got everything you need and want.


I'll be back.....

 

[Al Today]

Re: Free will vs "lessons"

[...] Free will means that your FREE TO DO YOUR WILL! [...]

Just me here. I do not think that "free will" is so simple. Especially when what one "chooses" to do may impact others. In choosing actions of perceived "free will" there is great responsibility and should not be taken lightly. Choice is not a choice when one does not understand what is being chosen. It has taken some "time" to be in the position you are currently in. It may take some "time" to resolve. Methinks there was excellent advice given in another thread about investigating the benefits of EE. Here is the link with a free download for you to try (at page bottom) . http://eiriu-eolas.org/

[...] so we decided to come to the lower dimensions to experience pain and anguish. [...]

And there is also beauty and joy. Perhaps beings with no physicality just may want to experience sensate of the flesh? Methinks we are here at least to experience and learn. For what exact reason we are here? Who does know.?.?.? We are what we are, we do what we do, and what is, IS... A main choice I "see" is how we choose to view ourselves, the world and people around us. The more knowledge gained, the more options available to truly "choose"...

 

[Alada]

Re: Free will vs "lessons"

The more knowledge gained, the more options available to truly "choose"...

Yes, free will relates knowledge and choice. The more objective knowledge is gathered, the more choices become available, the more free will there is (at least in theory). The thing then is to learn how to make use of the choices available, we then start to see the boundaries of what is possible at our point on the learning curve, where theoretical knowledge meets the reality of our level of Being.

To really exercise free will up to the level that is possible requires work, effort, to gradually wiggle free of limitations so that we can actually make use of the all choices that are there. Knowledge protects, when it is applied.