Genocide in Canada: The Untold story

[Al Today]

SHANE,
First I need to apologize for biting your head off.
I do let my emotions run wild.
I work on controlling them, but this is not easy for me.
I really don't want to do harm, but sometimes I just get neanderthal.
My wife tells me this.
I should not lash out without using my brain.
I am sorry.

I feel I have been unfairly criticized and I need to debate the issue.
criticism (n.) A critical comment or judgment.
I feel I have been judged, and have a need to talk with the court…

Could you restate this without using the word judge? Otherwise could you specifically define your usage of it please? Also "unfairly". Also "debate". Otherwise I do not understand what you mean by the above.

Do you speak in prose to people in everyday life?

Well, I didn’t take this remark as kindly.
Within me, this evoked what I call negative emotions of self-defense.

When you write like this, it doesn't feel like I'm hearing the real 'Al' but from someone who is performing.

As I began to get defensive, this remark caught me off guard.
I figured this was an opinion with no basis.
Perhaps I project as I may be standing on my pulpit, my soapbox?
Perhaps…
But anyway, I felt that judgement has been brought down.
Forming an opinion or evaluation is one form of judgement.
This remark (to me) had the marks of a determination without the facts.
Therefore. I used the word unfairly. As unfairly judged

I think it would be of benefit to you and others if you tried to write as others do.

I felt this was the sentence passed down from judgement.

I would love to know your life story … know that sometimes personal histories can be really hard.

Well, I can’t believe I did this.

I was never a for profit preacher, later on this...
I was raised fire & brimstone Southern Baptist.
Halleluiah and Amen.!.!.!
Give me an Amen.!.!.!
As a child, I knew there was some higher power, other than myself.
I thirsted for truth, but my environmental program was running.
Filling my head with only what I was exposed to.
I do remember this, as before I was in first grade, before 6 years old.
The church was down the road, about a quarter mile.
My mother told me of one Sunday morning, in the house, I was nowhere to be found.
Long story short, I went to Sunday school and was coloring in a picture of Jesus.
My mother found me at church.
She drug me home, and beat my ass.
Go figure…
My ole civil war era grandmother from the deep hollers of Kentucky, used to whip me with cherry stingers.
What was worse is that I had to go to the bush and bring her back the best cherry stinger I could find.
But, they had cookies and juice at church too.
Nice people…
When I could read, I started to read the King James Version.
But, I had questions.
Still as a child, I remember perplexing inconsistencies within the literal written word of god and had a talk with the preacher.
I was told that these are mysteries of god.
Mankind is NOT to understand all the marvels of god.
Man is to accepted Jesus and know that he will be saved from burning hell.
All ya gotta do is have faith. (yeah, right…)
It’s the devil that makes man question god donchya know...
I was not about to go with this particular JESUS program.
Luckily for me, my mom quit going to church.
I don’t really know why either.
She said something about hypocrisy and the deacons drinking on Saturday nights.
Playing poker too…
I fell away from church and began to experience 3D sensations.
Let us fast forward to my high school years.
I made better than average grades (without really trying).
I was a big jock on campus, a real shooting star.
I had a car and disposable income.
I had the cheerleaders.
I had colleges interested in my football abilities (flame out coming later).
In high school, most guys were going to college and major in Gym (Phys.Ed.)
Why?
If I went to college, I won’t get drafted into the Vietnam ‘conflict’.
The draft ended my junior year.
I didn’t really want to be a gym major.
Waste of time, I thought.
Didn’t know what I wanted to do for a living.
I was turning into one of those hippies.
Was offered friendship at a commune, but I didn’t really want that either.
After high school, I started making hydraulic ceiling supports for coal mines.

I am coming to a pre-planned exit point of this life.
Yes, I do think there are exit points that can get us outta here if the situation deems necessary.
A time to die, so to speak…

At 19 years of age, on April Fools day, I had a car accident.
On the freeway, my car ended up in a clockwise spin.
I saw a guardrail coming right at my door.
50 foot of guardrail went through my door and through the passenger widow.
Needless to say, I was a bloody mess.
I remember thinking of the Dukes of Hazzard TV show.
Their car seemed to blow up a lot.

I know I died that night.
I remember going though a tunnel of clouds with the end in sight.
I felt peace.
I also screamed out, I AM NOT DONE.
I woke up on a gurney at the hospital, they were getting ready to cover my face.
Everyone is just crying up a storm and I woke up.
I said, I am not dead.
I looked at the doctor and told him the following.
I know I will lose my right leg, and pointed just above my knee.
I also said…
You will want to remove my left leg, DON’T.!.!.!
And mom, don’t worry, I’ll whittle me a new leg out of an Oak tree.
Nobody had humor.
Spiritually, I felt pretty good.

Fast forward two(2) months…
I am still in the hospital.
In isolation, as a matter of fact.
I had a very nasty staph infection, and they were gonna remove my left leg.
Well, these two mormon missionaries just waltzed right in and asked if we could pray together (later on mormons).
Honestly, miraculously, the infection was gone.
Swear to god, some may say, it was really gone.
Quite a moving experience, I must add.
And I kept my left leg.

Fast forward to twenty years old, married with THREE(3) babies in diapers.
Some people tend to think religion when children are involved.
There was this preachers wife across the street trying to sweet talk my wife into us going to church.
I felt that I’ve already been there, done that, wasn’t too enthused.
But I gotta think of the children.
We were to go attend church the next Sunday when lo and behold who knocks on my door?

Two mormon elders.
I scared the beegeebies outta them.
They are used to getting the door slammed in their face, yes?
Well, I grabed ‘em and drug them in the house.
What about the bible saying that man was created in OUR image? Huh?
I found out that if I married my wife in the temple and be sealed, we both could become GODS.
Whoa…

We could someday have little spirit children and populate our own BBM.
We could even have our own little jesus.
We could be worshipped just like god our father.
And, of course there is god the mother.
Worlds upon worlds, more than one god, I was told.
To me, this tidbit explained away the UFO’s I’ve seen.

3D matrix control program.
Here is one examples:
One night, I was startled awake and lie there.
In the air, I felt something unnatural.
Some booming voice called out Allen, from downstairs.
Something wanted me to go downstairs.
I remembered the feeling I had when, years before, I was trying self hypnosis as Edgar Cayce described.
I knew something was wrong with that spiritual guide.
I had the same feeling with that voice downstairs.
I told it to leave me alone and went back to bed.
I think strange phenomena does occur to keep us away from the truth.
Miracles some may call them.
These apparent miracles are an excellent tool to hide the truth.

Back to the preacher story…
I became responsible for the flock (sheeple).
At one point, I was responsible for the finances.
I counseled many on things ranging from debt management to incest.
I taught Sunday school.
This is where I fined tuned an ability to use quotes to my advantage.
Gimme an Amen.!.!.!
I spoke at the pulpit.
I was deep in the organizational structure.
And, I knew something was wrong.
And I fell away…

Looking back, I have traveled a road without a map.
I do not know where it leads.
I only want to know enough to be able to choose the correct path at the fork in the road up ahead.
Enough for now.

 

[Beau]

Do you speak in prose to people in everyday life?

Well, I didn’t take this remark as kindly.
Within me, this evoked what I call negative emotions of self-defense.

It's an honest question Al. Someone giving you a mirror will typically evoke negoative emotions. That does not mean that what Shane said was unkind. Just the opposite, I think. He was trying to help IMO.

When you write like this, it doesn't feel like I'm hearing the real 'Al' but from someone who is performing.

As I began to get defensive, this remark caught me off guard.
I figured this was an opinion with no basis.
Perhaps I project as I may be standing on my pulpit, my soapbox?
Perhaps…
But anyway, I felt that judgement has been brought down.
Forming an opinion or evaluation is one form of judgement.
This remark (to me) had the marks of a determination without the facts.
Therefore. I used the word unfairly. As unfairly judged

I don't think anyone was judging you. Shane was giving you feedback on how he thought about your writing style. It was not meant to offend, or to judge. Instead of reflecting on what he wrote to you, you acted as though he had accused you of murder. A bit dramatic? For what it's worth, I did agree with Shane's observations about your writing style. Sometime it's difficult to pinpoint exactly what you are talking about. If you are offended by this, then I think it would be better to examine why instead of shooting the messenger. Your self-importance seems to have taken a hit.

I think it would be of benefit to you and others if you tried to write as others do.

I felt this was the sentence passed down from judgement.

Shane did not judge. Read it carefully. He says it would benefit you if you tried to write in a way that was easier to understand for others. That doesn't read like judgement to me. I don't think it would be wise to let this advice go in one ear and out the other Al.

 

[Beau]

This is something I have wanted to discuss and get clarity on for some time. I have noticed that people have a tendency to quote commonly revered text to back up and qualify their point of view. The problem is that our languages are not infallible and do not in themselves clearly define ideas.

The Gurdjieff quote worked well in this context. It was an example of external consideration, not meant to lend authority to his suggestion.

 

[Al Today]

Shane did not judge. Read it carefully. He says it would benefit you if you tried to write in a way that was easier to understand for others. That doesn't read like judgement to me. I don't think it would be wise to let this advice go in one ear and out the other Al.

The longer I contemplate this, I think I begin to agree with what is being said.
My comments you've quoted were my thoughts at the time of high emotions.
Controlling my emotions, this is an item that I have tried to work on.
I know that I should hold my tongue, meditate, open my mind to perhaps that I am not in the 'right'.
I also see the problem Shane has zeroed in on.
And this is that I must understand people cannot read my mind.
I need to elaborate more, explain with more details.
I have heard this many times.
I guess I don't like what I see in the mirror.
Seems that I have difficulty in expressing myself.
In the past, when I prepared talks, that was quite a different story.
I prepared, and considered that there is an audience to make the point with.
And work towards that point.
I viewed the talk as a one way communication, projecting out.
But on this forum, I am bothered that some see me as speaking without purpose.
I'm going to lick my wounds.
Thanks for trying to help.
I will 'get over' this, and hopefully grow a little more.
But I ask, please bear with me as I work on my communication skills (lack of).

 

[Miss Isness]

The Gurdjieff quote worked well in this context. It was an example of external consideration,

I see your point, after having reread Shane's post. At the same time, I think it can be a thin line between conformity and external consideration, especially in the Gurdjieff example given, since crossing one's legs can do little harm to anyone else. It's true that mimicking body postures can help create a stronger rapport, however. I hadn't formed any negative opinion of Al's way of communicating as there are other forum members that I have much more difficulty understanding, and yet I agree that it could benefit Al to try new ways of communicating.

not meant to lend authority to his suggestion.

Possibly, but surely it wouldn't be the same if one replaced Gurdjieff's name with 'my mother', for example.

 

[Beau]

At the same time, I think it can be a thin line between conformity and external consideration, especially in the Gurdjieff example given, since crossing one's legs can do little harm to anyone else. It's true that mimicking body postures can help create a stronger rapport, however.

My take on the Gurdjieff quote was not that G mimicked the student's posture to increase rapport. It was about sacrifice.

its necessary to make it uncomfortable from time to time so we can train it (our personality) to be considerate to others.

The quote is less about conformity and more to do with The Work. Putting yourself in other people's shoes. And it's the same for your writing style. No one said that anyone has to write like the rest of the people here. But we do need to train our machine to give up some of its parts.

I hadn't formed any negative opinion of Al's way of communicating as there are other forum members that I have much more difficulty understanding, and yet I agree that it could benefit Al to try new ways of communicating.

At times his posts have read like a stream of consciousness . But there have also been posts where you have been easily understandable.
It's not cut and dry but it is noticeable.

not meant to lend authority to his suggestion.

Possibly, but surely it wouldn't be the same if one replaced Gurdjieff's name with 'my mother', for example.

Actually, I think it would be the same if that person was involved with The Work. OSIT.

 

[Renaissance]

SHANE,
First I need to apologize for biting your head off.

Thanks Al. Apology accepted.

Do you speak in prose to people in everyday life?

Well, I didn’t take this remark as kindly.
Within me, this evoked what I call negative emotions of self-defense.

I thought it was interesting that this evoked such a response from you. It was a sincere question. Part of why I asked was because if someone speaks or writes in prose all the time, or as a poet, it would seem that this activity could act as a mask for your essential self because you'd always be in 'performance mode.' The prose writing style you use is often ambiguous and sometimes symbolic. It's difficult to determine what's what. Like when you said you got out of the preaching business a long time ago, I thought you were making a figurative statement, not a literal one. Speaking like this all the time would seem hard, particularly on those close to you.

But on this forum, I am bothered that some see me as speaking without purpose.

What I stated wasn't that you speak without a purpose. Just that it is often difficult to understand what you are saying.

Perhaps I project as I may be standing on my pulpit, my soapbox?

I don't get the sense that you're preaching, but more performing. I don't necessarily think it's a conscious effort, it could well be mechanical.

I'd like to write a little more but I gotta run. I'm glad you understand that I wasn't writing with the purpose to offend or harm.

 

[Miss Isness]

My take on the Gurdjieff quote was not that G mimicked the student's posture to increase rapport. It was about sacrifice.

As far as I know, sacrifices are made to obtain some kind of benefit for oneself or others. If that's the case, then the benefit may be a better rapport with oneself or others. In any case, this is a perfect example of how a quote can be interpreted in different ways, or with different emphasis.

Actually, I think it would be the same if that person was involved with The Work. OSIT.

You think it would be the same for you, or for everybody on this forum? I think it's rather difficult to get beyond putting admired figures on pedestals, since it can also happen unconsciously and display itself in behavior that can be rationalized in other ways. I still think that there is no need to name drop if one is making a valid point at an appropriate time. I can understand quoting texts for the purpose of familiarizing people with them, though.

I think it took courage for Al to admit his mistakes, and apologize. He is obviously not obsessed with internal consideration if he's capable of doing that. I think he may have needed a little time to regain his equilibrium before being confronted with another issue. There are an infinite number of ways to put yourself in someone else's shoes.:)

 

[Beau]

In any case, this is a perfect example of how a quote can be interpreted in different ways, or with different emphasis.

I agree. I'm open to the possibility that my interpretation is completely off. But I'm still going to share my thoughts. I agree with your take on the quote. Perhaps I was just splitting hairs.

You think it would be the same for you, or for everybody on this forum? I think it's rather difficult to get beyond putting admired figures on pedestals, since it can also happen unconsciously and display itself in behavior that can be rationalized in other ways.

I still think that there is no need to name drop if one is making a valid point at an appropriate time. I can understand quoting texts for the purpose of familiarizing people with them, though.

I agree. There are also quotes are put in such a good way that it's just easier to use it. It's not meant to be authoritative, but practical. The purpose is to help understanding.

 

[ark]

Notice that unusually high percentage of Al's strokes start with an "I".
This is suggestive of something.
What exactly - hard to guess, as we do not have enough data.
Al will know. Hopefully he will watch this phenomenon.
And will try to write a post without even one "I".
About "things" around rather than about things in himself.
Will you, Al?

Perhaps one "I" is enough?
For instance at the end of the post:

Or so I think.

 

[Al Today]

Notice that unusually high percentage of Al's strokes start with an "I".
This is suggestive of something.
What exactly - hard to guess, as we do not have enough data.
Al will know. Hopefully he will watch this phenomenon.
And will try to write a post without even one "I".
About "things" around rather than about things in himself.
Will you, Al?

Perhaps one "I" is enough?
For instance at the end of the post:

Or so I think.

I will have trouble not using the word 'I'. Actually, this kinda excites me to try. How can one go about this challenge when talking from personal experience? As this situation progresses, I must use the word 'I' for now though. Perhaps, some speakers use references to drive home a point. Others may speak from personal experience.

I am also uncomfortable using the word 'one', as in... 'One' may perhaps attempt to blend references and personal experience. Notice that in many of my previous posts, 'I' have voiced that there is something up with me using the 'I' word as 'I' do. This challenge really intrigues me. I don't know where this is going to lead.
But the path is open to be followed.

Thank you all for your kind words and directional guidance.
I probably would've never seen this path to travel.
Drat, there's that 'I' word again.

A thought just occurred to me. Perhaps the 'I' word is symbolic of my STS struggle to hold on to my individuality. Fear in losing my personal identity traveling closer to the 'One'? This program needs some analysis and perhaps some debugging. Modifications may be performed and possibly program deletion.
Where will this lead? We will find out.

By the way, about this prose writing style?
Perhaps through the years, developing technical documentation has affected my written communications to a general audience.
I forgot how to generally communicate.
Perhaps a refresher course in creative writing is needed here?

 

[Petey of Lone Tree]

Petey of Lone Tree occasionally uses literary devices when referring to himself.;)
Norman Mailer did the same, referring to himself as "the author", in the writing of "Miami and the Siege of Chicago", a book about his experiences while attending the Republican and Democratic National conventions of 1968.

 

[Renaissance]

In any case, this is a perfect example of how a quote can be interpreted in different ways, or with different emphasis.

I agree. I'm open to the possibility that my interpretation is completely off. But I'm still going to share my thoughts. I agree with your take on the quote. Perhaps I was just splitting hairs.

These thoughts on interpretation reminded me of a C’s session concerning perpendicular realities:

A: The perpendicular reality primarily, though not exclusively, refers to one's life path and how one's life path fits together in the cycle or in a wheel when connected with those of a similar life path. And, oddly enough, relates very closely to the previous question involving synchronicity... [(J) Yeah...] If you can picture an inlaid wheel formed by a circle within a circle, and adjoining partitions in a perfect balance, that would be the best representation of perpendicular reality for it
does not completely involve one individual's experience, but rather a group of individual's experience for the progression of a greater purpose, if you understand what we mean. This is what we mean when we say: perpendicular reality. Picture again, a circle within a circle adjoined by equally spaced partitions in a perfect cycle. That is perpendicular reality.
Q: (T) You had us draw this symbol and put seven spokes or partitions between the two circles.
A: Correct.
Q: (T) Is seven the optimal number?
A: Seven is always the optimal number. There are seven levels of density. This reflects through all phases of reality.
Q: (T) The people that I interacted with during this time, they also have gone on to do other things that they were supposed to be doing because of their interaction with me in this perpendicular reality that we all existed in?
A: That's correct.
Q: (T) You also said that each of us in this group came from a different perpendicular reality.
A: That is correct.
Q: (T) Is it at this point where we merge our different perpendicular realities in order to learn from each other's experiences?
A: That could be described as correct.

The reason this came to mind was that each person may have a unique, valid and objective way of interpreting a given situation. While its true that we can subjectively assign different meanings to one word or idea and get nowhere in communicating, perhaps if we work to be objective and still come up with different interpretations it is because we are just looking at different parts of the whole. However, it’s important for all of us to consider and understand each other’s views if our understanding and communication on an issue is to be complete, osit.

In the previously used G. quote, Beau looked at the cause (or internal meaning of the quote): sacrifice, and Miss Isness looked at the effect (or external result of the quote): benefit. Seems to me to be just different parts of the whole.

But this also brings up a question for me regarding Miss Isness’ issue with ‘name dropping’ - it seems like much of your focus was whether I was using Gurdjieff’s name as a means of trying help, and in this focus it seemed you initially missed the underlying cause, or internal meaning of the quote, which concerns a method of helping that is unique to Gurdjieff’s system: sacrificing the personality.

So perhaps you were focusing on name dropping because your primary perspective on the external meaning wasn’t fully aware of this method of sacrifice?

 

[Miss Isness]

it seems like much of your focus was whether I was using Gurdjieff’s name as a means of trying help, and in this focus it seemed you initially missed the underlying cause, or internal meaning of the quote, which concerns a method of helping that is unique to Gurdjieff’s system: sacrificing the personality.

I wouldn't say that sacrificing the personality is unique to Gurdjieff's system. It's something that most mothers are familiar with, even if they only do it instinctively, and I wasn't so much focused on whether you were trying to help, but on the effect of the quote.

So perhaps you were focusing on name dropping because your primary perspective on the external meaning wasn’t fully aware of this method of sacrifice?

Again, sacrificing one's own comfort to accomodate the needs of others is not a foreign concept, nor is the idea that making such sacrifices allows one to spiritually evolve, and become more aware.

As always, however, discernment is needed. It is possible to make erroneous sacrifices that lead to bitterness, resentment, and blocked creativity rather than increased awareness.

In any case, if one decides without pressure, on his own accord to make a sacrifice, it can lead to learning whether or not it was erroneous.

So, my question is: If this whole forum is based on the teachings of Gurdjieff, will using a Gurdjieff quote while suggesting that another member should make a sacrifice, allow that member to choose freely? Regardless of what your intentions may or may not be, it could have the effect of making that member feel pressured into making that sacrifice, osit.

 

[Alana]

I wouldn't say that sacrificing the personality is unique to Gurdjieff's system. It's something that most mothers are familiar with, even if they only do it instinctively, and I wasn't so much focused on whether you were trying to help, but on the effect of the quote.

Actually what "mothers" (educational sustems, families, societies) of what i understand so far, are doing, actually create the false personality that the Gurdjieffian system is trying to break in order to free the true Self, the Individuality of the person. Learning to conform to the needs of the "mother" at an early age is what creates the false personality in the first place and it's a different thing than the external consideration G prescribes.

From Cassiopaea Glossary

In 4th Way parlance, this is the practice [External Consideration] of taking others into account when acting. External considering involves making a realistic evaluation of another's situation and acting in ways which take this into account in a positive sense.

External considering is however not the same thing as being socially polite or considerate, although it may be expressed in this manner.

The key concept is to be aware of and to adapt oneself to the level of being and knowledge of others.Thus, external considering involves for example not talking about things which would simply offend others' beliefs or simply not be understood. External considering relates to an idea of general good will towards the environment, then in the sense of letting the environment be as it wishes and responding to its requests in a manner that honors its right to be as it will.

External considering is rooted in objective awareness of the environment. Its opposite, internal considering, is rooted in attachment to a subjective inner state, to one's own comfort of preconceptions or desires.

External and internal considering are not always outwardly distinguishable, although inwardly they are fundamentally different. One may for example be socially pleasing purely in order to reinforce one's own idea of oneself as a 'good person.' This is internal considering and preoccupation about how others/the self perceive the self.

In some cases, external considering may involve withholding information that is seen as inappropriate, dangerous or simply unlikely to be well received. An internally considering person may also do this, but then again the motive is different.

We cannot codify with external criteria which action constitutes which kind of considering. The concepts are related to service to others vs service to self and to objectivity vs subjectivity. Usually the term considering is applied in the context of personal interactions.

Only through having external considering can one serve others. This requires responsiveness and a sense of objectivity and awareness of what is right action for the given situation. Serving in the sense of merely carrying out commands is not external considering.

Internal considering can be likened to man's inner predator. It feeds itself by engaging in subjective fantasies where it thinks it is other than it is. It will also seek to gain external confirmation for its distorted self-image by manipulating others to confirm it in its views. Man may go to much trouble to make an impression, simply in order to have his own illusory, internally considered self-image reflected back to himself from others. All success in such manipulation feeds the predator and confirms it in its internal considering and accordingly removes the center of gravity of man's inner life away from objectivity. Internal considering is in very concrete terms man's natural enemy who seeks to prevent man from being himself. The predator will at all times prefer an illusion of virtue to the naked truth about itself. Still, it is not useful to morally judge or condemn the predator, just like it is useless to condemn a cat for eating mice. Still, one must disengage from identifying with this predator. Claiming to Work while engaging in internal considering is a contradiction in terms. The forms of internal considering can however be extremely subtle and one cannot always detect them, thus constant vigilance is required. The predator of internal considering may well claim to engage in merciless self-observation, to aspire to consciousness and being and any other virtues and even trick itself to believe it is progressing towards these goals while all the while only feeding its vanity and desire for recognition.

Exterior man needs the support of a group in order to help him detect the many tricky ways in which internal considering inserts itself in his perception and actions.

Above quote might give an answer to your last question Miss Isness? Taking into account also the vision for this forum as stated in the rules section.

So, my question is: If this whole forum is based on the teachings of Gurdjieff, will using a Gurdjieff quote while suggesting that another member should make a sacrifice, allow that member to choose freely? Regardless of what your intentions may or may not be, it could have the effect of making that member feel pressured into making that sacrifice, osit.