Genocide in Canada: The Untold story

[Miss Isness]

Actually what "mothers" (educational sustems, families, societies) of what i understand so far, are doing, actually create the false personality that the Gurdjieffian system is trying to break in order to free the true Self, the Individuality of the person. Learning to conform to the needs of the "mother" at an early age is what creates the false personality in the first place and it's a different thing than the external consideration G prescribes.

Mothers do a lot of things, as do most people, some of which create a false personality, and others that nurture their children's true essence. The expression, 'to put yourself in someone else's shoes' probably existed before Gurdjieff, and likewise the behavior. According to your G quote it's not so simple to identify if an action is born out of external or internal considering.

Perhaps that means that using a quotation, or a particular writing style could be born out of either. It logically follows that both should be questioned in a group whose aim is to 'help detect the many tricky ways in which internal considering inserts itself into one's perceptions and actions'.

 

[Renaissance]

I wouldn't say that sacrificing the personality is unique to Gurdjieff's system. It's something that most mothers are familiar with, even if they only do it instinctively, and I wasn't so much focused on whether you were trying to help, but on the effect of the quote.

You’re right; there are other systems that are similar. Studies on narcissism, the Predator’s mind, ponerology, the Sufi’s names of God, and others are of the same work. However, you gave no indication of a conscious work, of which I’d say most mothers are not familiar with. The state of the world shows this.

Again, sacrificing one's own comfort to accomodate the needs of others is not a foreign concept, nor is the idea that making such sacrifices allows one to spiritually evolve, and become more aware.

I don’t think the intentions of this group or Gurdjieff’s system are to make sacrifices so ‘one can spiritually evolve.’ The point is to Do something for others.

And indeed, the idea of sacrifice for another is not a foreign concept. Do you know of the story of Malachi Ritscher? He burned himself alive in the busy streets of Chicago to bring awareness of those suffering in Iraq. This was one of the most extreme measures of sacrifice I’ve ever come across that’s happened in my lifetime. His ultimate sacrifice wasn’t likely about his spiritual evolution but of mankind’s. And it yet it still fell on deaf ears. Hardly anyone one knows. And I’m sure there are millions if not billions of other less or equally extreme sacrifices that have still done nothing. So how do we suffer in a way that can provide a value that can Do something? I think it comes with implementing the knowledge gained from such systems as previously mentioned.

As always, however, discernment is needed. It is possible to make erroneous sacrifices that lead to bitterness, resentment, and blocked creativity rather than increased awareness.

Certainly discernment is needed. For one to have such, knowledge of the material spoken of is needed. You seem to be lacking this. The type of sacrifice meant is what’s entailed in seeing our illusions, which is based on knowledge. If Al just tried to change his writing style without knowledge of ‘why’ then yes, it could lead to such things as you describe. If he did this though, it would be based on internal consideration not external consideration, and that’s when the type of conformity your talking about would take place. But I get the impression that Al has seen something. I also get the impression you think Gurdjieff’s system isn’t all that most members in the forum make it out to be. Is this correct? If so, one would think that in order for someone to have such a view, they’ve taken the responsibility of studying it thoroughly first to come to such conclusions. Have you? If you have I’d suggest you do some more reading because it’s clear that you’re missing some understanding - we’re speaking in different languages.

In any case, if one decides without pressure, on his own accord to make a sacrifice, it can lead to learning whether or not it was erroneous.

I think this is backwards. One first learns to see an illusion, and in the willingness to see it, it is sacrificed. Learning from the sacrifices you mention would seem accidental and ‘shooting in the dark.’ And while I agree that no one should be forced to learn, there is an important pressure we should keep in mind - the world is burning.

So, my question is: If this whole forum is based on the teachings of Gurdjieff, will using a Gurdjieff quote while suggesting that another member should make a sacrifice, allow that member to choose freely? Regardless of what your intentions may or may not be, it could have the effect of making that member feel pressured into making that sacrifice, osit.

Again, it has to do with learning. It is not about using some quote from some ‘authority’ to force someone to conform. It is about using knowledge to learn.

 

[Miss Isness]

I don’t think the intentions of this group or Gurdjieff’s system are to make sacrifices so ‘one can spiritually evolve.’ The point is to Do something for others.

Nor do I, but I do think spiritual evolution is a natural consequence.

Certainly discernment is needed. For one to have such, knowledge of the material spoken of is needed.

I don't know if that's true. I know that the information that I've found here has been extremely helpful to my development. Even if a lot of what I've learned here was already apparent to me on some level, it needed to be consciously reinforced by association with like-minded others.

I also get the impression you think Gurdjieff’s system isn’t all that most members in the forum make it out to be. Is this correct?

I object to putting admirable figures on pedestals, and quoting them as a way of demonstrating alignment with their teachings, which instead should be done through action.

I think this is backwards. One first learns to see an illusion, and in the willingness to see it, it is sacrificed. Learning from the sacrifices you mention would seem accidental and ‘shooting in the dark.’ And while I agree that no one should be forced to learn, there is an important pressure we should keep in mind - the world is burning.

Yes, it is backwards. Unfortunately, it's not always so easy to identify what is an illusion and what is essential, especially when there's pressure.

Again, it has to do with learning. It is not about using some quote from some ‘authority’ to force someone to conform. It is about using knowledge to learn.

Let me ask you this then. Would it have been possible to use knowledge to learn without quoting, and would there have been any advantage to doing so, in your opinion? Do you think it would have been any different if you had given a personal example of sacrificing your own personality out of external consideration, rather than using Gurdjieff's example?

 

[Renaissance]

Hi Miss Isness, sorry for the delay. I was trying to reflect on what the truth of the matter was and after not coming to any certain conclusions I seemed to have lost some inertia. In any case these are my current thoughts.

Certainly discernment is needed. For one to have such, knowledge of the material spoken of is needed.

I don't know if that's true. I know that the information that I've found here has been extremely helpful to my development. Even if a lot of what I've learned here was already apparent to me on some level, it needed to be consciously reinforced by association with like-minded others.

Some method of debugging or 'deponerization' is needed to regain normal critical faculties. There seem far too few systems out there. The materials mentioned help and all have a great many similarities although they seem to have their own unique qualities and usefulness. If we're to talk and use discernment on a specific area of one of the teachings though (such as external consideration), I do think past study of that area is a prerequisite.

I object to putting admirable figures on pedestals, and quoting them as a way of demonstrating alignment with their teachings, which instead should be done through action.

I agree there's no use in putting anyone on a pedestal. I think 'putting someone on a pedistel' has the opportunity of being twisted. Gurdieff has gained a proper reputation in his teachings being that they've provided results. I don't think giving G. due credit (or the meaning of his words) through his quotes is putting him on a pedestal. Sometimes it's useful to use his words as they provide multiple meanings and provide greater clarity. However, in the instance you bring up I think I could have just as easily used my own interpretation as it was a fairly simple and basic example. I don't think that me not using my own experience was engaging in 'inaction' though. His quote was used as a supplement to my thoughts.

Unfortunately, it's not always so easy to identify what is an illusion and what is essential, especially when there's pressure.

I think your perception of this pressure may be a warped from the necessity of a certain level of commitment to being open to learn. Multiple members offering a shared view often happens and I don't think amounts to any pressure. 'Peer pressure,' particularly in the grand sense of the General Law is what many are working to escape from.

*Edit*: This morning I was thinking about this post and I think I was off in the above. I think the pressure you were referring to was one of using an authority to pressure someone into something, so I think my above response was incorrect. Does using a reputable source instead of your own example amount to using pressure? I'm not sure. Given the nature of programs this could be something I can't see. What do others think? */Edit*

Let me ask you this then. Would it have been possible to use knowledge to learn without quoting, and would there have been any advantage to doing so, in your opinion? Do you think it would have been any different if you had given a personal example of sacrificing your own personality out of external consideration, rather than using Gurdjieff's example?

As mentioned, I think I could have used a personal example in place of the G. quote, and since it was a basic one, perhaps the results would have still been beneficial. However, being that the results did seem helpful for Al I have to wonder why you are still hung up on the issue.

This topic reminded me of some thoughts on the process of distilling and gaining knowledge. Laura's writing distilled a vast number of subjects that provided an initial 'knowledge boost' for many who have read her work. The forum can act in a similar way for the Signs page and a number of other areas in providing a network that shares impressions. However, reading the source material is needed and only fair if there's to be equal sharing. Forming perceptions based on others 'distilling' is not enough, imo. I wonder if your wanting other's personal experience has any basis on depending on others to do this work for you. I think you've already shown a lack of 4th Way knowledge in terms of your understanding of sacrifice regarding external consideration. I also think it's curious that you've focused so much on this issue since the G. quote was only a part of my response.

 

[Voyageur]

Unknown Quote

“I don't expect you white people to drag yourselves into court for what you did to us. You sterilized my relatives, you murdered my brother Bugs, you beat my cousin to death at the Cranbrrok school. You've gotten away with it, for now. But there's a higher judge you all have to answer to, even if you don't believe it. You can see that judgement already in the dying rivers and the global warming and the rising suicides among your own children. You were really killing off yourselves, not us, by your genocide, because we'll always be here, but your way is going to fade and die. And then once it's gone, you may finally learn what your own teacher Jesus tried to show you but which you forgot, that his kingdom isn't in this world, it isn't about churches and money and who's got the power. It may take you all dying for you to finally learn that."

Note: not sure where the above originated; could have missed it within?

Very slow on catching this tread, but perhaps as a filter to what this person said, here are a few observation as follows:

This person speaks from the Ktunaxa tribe which is a center for various peoples from tribes in the North and South (US/Canada Bourder), primarily the south. Meeting these people is a joy; talked with some of their elders at various times about simple things of the lands, basket weaving and the edible wilds – yet I know not near enough. The following is a link with information of this tribe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ktunaxa

How can one truly speak of this individuals deep seated pain, divisions imposed and observations that are made about the Whiteman? However, I have been to this place this person speaks of; now a high end hotel, casino and golf course. There is a white painted old clapboard sided church set off from the main brick building which as was indicated is the old school. There is a road that continues past the resorts parking area and buildings elaborate facades, past fine Euro mobiles and golf caddies, and continues unseeing by the guests to the reserve where still today it is subject to the governments indigenous policies; department of Indian affairs.

The school has been retrofitted with a patina of aged sanded wood within, a gloss that never existed before. If one would even notice, the history of this place is captured in the eyes of the natives photographed adorning the walls. There are many old school group photos that speak through the lens. These speak of people who have come and gone or are now aged and tell their children who could not know these things.

Strange, but perhaps calculated, was the noticeable absents of photographs amongst so many, of the priests and the nuns who ran the school of conversion.

There is a haunting coldness to the bricks of this school; like how T.C. Lethbridge speaks of the memory’s held in stone. The halls may feel rich to some, but the sense was, as subjective as this is, of hollowness and despair, but also of deep lessons for any who look and wish to try and understand.

Religious and political ponerolgy left their marks here on this place and on these peoples – the individual above speaks of this in their own way?


Edit - Link to article

 

[Vulcan59]

Hi Parallax,

I edited your link in the above article to take the interested reader straight to the article concerned. :)

 

[Aeneas]

“I don't expect you white people to drag yourselves into court for what you did to us. You sterilized my relatives, you murdered my brother Bugs, you beat my cousin to death at the Cranbrrok school. You've gotten away with it, for now. But there's a higher judge you all have to answer to, even if you don't believe it. You can see that judgement already in the dying rivers and the global warming and the rising suicides among your own children. You were really killing off yourselves, not us, by your genocide, because we'll always be here, but your way is going to fade and die. And then once it's gone, you may finally learn what your own teacher Jesus tried to show you but which you forgot, that his kingdom isn't in this world, it isn't about churches and money and who's got the power. It may take you all dying for you to finally learn that."

Found the "unknown" quote here, where the sentence before the quote is:

Before she died suddenly in January of 2004, my friend Virginia Baptiste of the Osoyoos Nation said to me,

 

[Voyageur]

Thank you both for referencing and linking – “Virginia” Baptiste (Bapitiste - Métis of origin?) of the Osoyoos Nation, a tribe along the same latitude as the school a few 4-500 km. away. The conversion swept the land and pulled everyone possible into the fold.