Miss Isness said:
I wouldn't say that sacrificing the personality is unique to Gurdjieff's system. It's something that most mothers are familiar with, even if they only do it instinctively, and I wasn't so much focused on whether you were trying to help, but on the effect of the quote.
You’re right; there are other systems that are similar. Studies on narcissism, the Predator’s mind, ponerology, the Sufi’s names of God, and others are of the same work. However, you gave no indication of a conscious work, of which I’d say most mothers are not familiar with. The state of the world shows this.
Miss Isness said:
Again, sacrificing one's own comfort to accomodate the needs of others is not a foreign concept, nor is the idea that making such sacrifices allows one to spiritually evolve, and become more aware.
I don’t think the intentions of this group or Gurdjieff’s system are to make sacrifices so ‘one can spiritually evolve.’ The point is to Do something for others.
And indeed, the idea of sacrifice for another is not a foreign concept. Do you know of the story of Malachi Ritscher? He burned himself alive in the busy streets of Chicago to bring awareness of those suffering in Iraq. This was one of the most extreme measures of sacrifice I’ve ever come across that’s happened in my lifetime. His ultimate sacrifice wasn’t likely about his spiritual evolution but of mankind’s. And it yet it still fell on deaf ears. Hardly anyone one knows. And I’m sure there are millions if not billions of other less or equally extreme sacrifices that have still done nothing. So how do we suffer in a way that can provide a value that can Do something? I think it comes with implementing the knowledge gained from such systems as previously mentioned.
Miss Isness said:
As always, however, discernment is needed. It is possible to make erroneous sacrifices that lead to bitterness, resentment, and blocked creativity rather than increased awareness.
Certainly discernment is needed. For one to have such, knowledge of the material spoken of is needed. You seem to be lacking this. The type of sacrifice meant is what’s entailed in seeing our illusions, which is based on knowledge. If Al just tried to change his writing style without knowledge of ‘why’ then yes, it could lead to such things as you describe. If he did this though, it would be based on internal consideration not external consideration, and that’s when the type of conformity your talking about would take place. But I get the impression that Al has
seen something. I also get the impression you think Gurdjieff’s system isn’t all that most members in the forum make it out to be. Is this correct? If so, one would think that in order for someone to have such a view, they’ve taken the responsibility of studying it thoroughly first to come to such conclusions. Have you? If you have I’d suggest you do some more reading because it’s clear that you’re missing some understanding - we’re speaking in different languages.
Miss Isness said:
In any case, if one decides without pressure, on his own accord to make a sacrifice, it can lead to learning whether or not it was erroneous.
I think this is backwards. One first learns to see an illusion, and in the willingness to see it, it is sacrificed. Learning from the sacrifices you mention would seem accidental and ‘shooting in the dark.’ And while I agree that no one should be forced to learn, there is an important pressure we should keep in mind - the world is burning.
Miss Isness said:
So, my question is: If this whole forum is based on the teachings of Gurdjieff, will using a Gurdjieff quote while suggesting that another member should make a sacrifice, allow that member to choose freely? Regardless of what your intentions may or may not be, it could have the effect of making that member feel pressured into making that sacrifice, osit.
Again, it has to do with learning. It is not about using some quote from some ‘authority’ to force someone to conform. It is about using knowledge to learn.