Good and Evil

[Keit]

Just wanted to share something of not so great importance with you...
I was reading a forum topic that discussed lore details of some online game (here it is http://www(dot)guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10019359&page=2
They were talking about some evil race (named Mursaat) that killed lot of people in order to create a "soul seal" to keep other evil race (Titans) from reaching a game world.
And some posters touched the topic of "what is considered evil". I think it is worthwhile of sharing because I think it may reflect general opinion of how psychopaths may be perceived if they would reveal themselves and their agenda in the open, even if it is obvious that there is a difference between discussing a game plot and discussing events in real life :)

Do you agree that the Ends Justify the Means or not? Kill a few people and save your whole species (and the world). In the Real World would you be offended if Scientists killed a few people in experiments, if those experiments lead to a cure for cancer that saved millions? If No, what if I twisted that, What if the scientists were killing them for bad proposes and just HAPPENED to find the cure for cancer by doing so, is it still ok?

Those questions are really what you have to consider in "good" or "evil" in the situation.

Don't be so childish and ignorant,when it comes to the topic of the nature of different races ,there is no race which is 'good' or 'evil' .Every race has an inherent instict to SURVIVE ,and if that means dominance over other species to ensure it ,then so be it .

I see the mursat as not 100% evil as in some sense they did try to save the world and save the gods by not letting the titans free. However they obviously took things a little to far and good ol greed took over.

The real question is.. are we evil?

The Mursaat are neither good nor evil (unless you count an apparent lack of conscience as evil). They are simply looking out for their better interests, no matter the cost. Something understandable in any race.

But now we're getting off topic... the Mursaat did evil things, and judging by how they seemed to be guided by a desire of self preservation rather than ridding the world of an destructive force I would not put them on the list of 'good guys'.
Just possible allies when armageddon arrives.

The mursaat are again not good or evil. When people do things, they think as being good, like hitler inspiring a whole country to slaughter a whole religon. So too many people, the mursaat can be heros to them, and others guild wars nazis.

If the Mursaats wanted more than just to keep the Titans away, then yes, they are evil. But fear of death is not something that makes you evil. I mean, if you heard that someone was going to kill you that bears the mark of the white pimpernel, wouldn't you take action to ensure that you were not killed by such a person?

Mursaat were good?
No. They sacrificed people to achieve their goals. That makes them non-good - or evil.

 

[anart]

Too bad they can't use that energy discussing the actions of those in the real world - in their own lives and countries - gaming is a dangerous, dangerous thing, at least in my experience ( I've been trapped for years in virtual worlds - and even played guild wars for short time, though I never really liked it - and I occasionally still feel that pull to gaming when I just want to escape into a world where everything is even less real than this world we're in - but I digress).

It sounds like most of them are ponerized - the whole 'they're just doing what they have to do to stay alive' line - but, again - I wonder what they might discover about their own lives if they took the time to have these discussions and expend this energy looking at objective reality right and left.

Apologies if I went off topic - there are just so many sharp intellects out there completely hypnotised by gaming, that I can't help thinking of the wasted potential - then again, everyone will do what they will do, so chances are if it wasn't the gaming world distracting them or giving them an escape, it would be something else.

 

[Keit]

Apologies if I went off topic

I think it's actually right on topic ;)

Too bad they can't use that energy discussing the actions of those in the real world - in their own lives and countries - gaming is a dangerous, dangerous thing, at least in my experience ( I've been trapped for years in virtual worlds - and even played guild wars for short time, though I never really liked it - and I occasionally still feel that pull to gaming when I just want to escape into a world where everything is even less real than this world we're in - but I digress).

I agree and disagree (on a gaming as dangerous). I agree - it can be a waste of valuable moments in life, escape, another trap this system has to offer, pointless mechanical deed, anything that takes time instead of Working on a self. All of those things and more. But it's not GAMING that dangerous, but what YOU allow it to become in your life. What you decide to do with it and how to treat this activity. There are people in this world that do not find games even remotely appealing, but they waste their valuable lives on being "people junkies", "sport junkies" or any "junky" for this matter. It's not the activity that may turn "evil", it what you do with it and how it effects you.
Games known to be addictive and considered by many as pointless in relation to real life - but so watching Simpson's! ;) Now, I am sure you and many will disagree! (hey, don't throw tomatoes on me, I love Sympsons too) You may say that Simpson's series have tons of valuable topics, you just need to know where and how to look. It can be applied to anything in our world, games as well (take this topic for example). I have lot of things to say about this (pro or anti gaming) so if you like, I can add later.

It sounds like most of them are ponerized - the whole 'they're just doing what they have to do to stay alive' line - but, again - I wonder what they might discover about their own lives if they took the time to have these discussions and expend this energy looking at objective reality right and left.

This is also what I am wondering about. It seems that they allow their minds to expand only if it's a game or some sci-fi book or series discussion. They treat "possible real events on this planet" as something ridiculous and not possible, but have no mental block if they know that this is purely hypothetical.

there are just so many sharp intellects out there completely hypnotised by gaming, that I can't help thinking of the wasted potential - then again, everyone will do what they will do, so chances are if it wasn't the gaming world distracting them or giving them an escape, it would be something else.

It's not just gaming, it's also TV series. There are lot of "revealing" TV series those days but it seems that their mind works additional hours only if it's known as "imaginable".

But let's also imagine that psychopaths will realize that their nature will be discovered after all, how they are going to present themselves? As people with obvious "deficiency", therefore poor and handicapped people who are what they are and others should accept them (well, we can't just shoot them all or lock them up, right?") Or, they can say that their "deficiency" is actually an advantage, and only people like them can perform certain duties. So we can't live without them. How people will react when they will hear that all those atrocities were made in a name of "grater good" or an urgent necessity, for example: "We had to get rid of the large part of human population because there is a global disaster coming soon, and most of you won't survive anyway. We had to make a choice because we are the only once capable to do it. You should be thankful that you alive".

There are books, movies, games that contain such concepts, so people are used to think this way. That our leaders can make a difficult decisions other not capable of. So they allow their minds to wander only if it's a game discussion, but hope that they never will have to make such choices in real life, or worse - they do not apply their "ideas" to real "game participants".

 

[Beau]

I have lot of things to say about this (pro or anti gaming) so if you like, I can add later.

Hi Keit,

There was a thread on gaming here waaaay back in the day. Check it out:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=129&p=1

 

[Keit]

Thanks a lot for the link. I think that what anart said sums it up for me:
(in NWN I also played a ranger ;) )

I notice as I read and re-read this thread that a part of me wants to find a convincing reason for believing that gaming is, if not beneficial, at least not harmful. I love it. I had a blast with my EQ toon, my WoW toon, even my EQ2 toon and there are days when I am tired of thinking and I would love to just disappear into a Ranger's world. (stop snickering, yes, a Ranger) The fact of the matter is that it is not conscious mentation. It is not thinking with a hammer. It is not paying close attention to what is happening to the left and right. It is not reading. It is not writing. It is not creative. It is not breaking free of this prison in any real way, shape or form. I wish it were. Perhaps it is just my experience with gaming, and others are able to access creativity and conscious mentation while gaming, but I must admit to being skeptical of that. It's a distraction from what I really want to be doing, which is the Work. For me, it is the easy way out, the zombie way to pass the time, not really ever noticing when six hours have passed because I've been raiding Time and finally have the DKP to get that bow or sword. Heck, I don't know, but I suspect that we're all trying to justify doing something that is just plain fun and nothing else (assuming that there isn't subliminal programming going on behind those Orcs). Then again, there's nothing wrong with just having fun from time to time - as a matter of fact, I think it's critical to maintaining one's sanity. I've no conclusion to present, really, I'm just letting you all know the thoughts this thread brings to mind. Who knows, maybe it is good for us, or at least not harmful? Yeah, that's it....right?

 

[anart]

ahhh, I was a ranger in NWN as well - visually beautiful game that was, at least when I played it. (Yep, I told you - I was in deep.) ;) - I was sort of always paying attention to the woman in the red dress, just like Neo - still want to at times, but less often now, simply because I have SO much more to figure out and do - and what seems like so little time to do it - but we will do what we will do.

;)

 

[Keit]

Yes, I understand. I think for me it acts like a necessary retreat in order to help my mind not to overload (during especially stressful periods) when this is over, the interest fades by itself and the fact that this is really ridiculous and not worth wasting time, become clear. :)

Well, gaming aside ;) I still wonder about this issue:

But let's also imagine that psychopaths will realize that their nature will be discovered after all, how they are going to present themselves? As people with obvious "deficiency", therefore poor and handicapped people who are what they are and others should accept them (well, we can't just shoot them all or lock them up, right?") Or, they can say that their "deficiency" is actually an advantage, and only people like them can perform certain duties. So we can't live without them. How people will react when they will hear that all those atrocities were made in a name of "grater good" or an urgent necessity, for example: "We had to get rid of the large part of human population because there is a global disaster coming soon, and most of you won't survive anyway. We had to make a choice because we are the only once capable to do it. You should be thankful that you alive".

There are books, movies, games that contain such concepts, so people are used to think this way. That our leaders can make a difficult decisions other not capable of. So they allow their minds to wander only if it's a game discussion, but hope that they never will have to make such choices in real life, or worse - they do not apply their "ideas" to real "game participants".

 

[atreides]

Just as long as you aren't paying attention to men in red dresses, our vows specifically forbid opposite sex oggling.

 

[Keit]

Revisiting games topic...take a look at this quote from a game forum. I think it's a clever way to pass an idea or info, don't you think? ;) (avoid game lexicon for things like "ecto" and "fissure armor")

As many of your knows the price of ectos is not the direct result of the fact that u need them to craft fissure armors, price is that high just are used as "money" in trades.
just like the us dollar, generaly accepted to be overpriced because is not just "united states currency" but the mean to buy oil. if oil started to be bought in other currencies aswell, most western countries will turn out sitting on an ocean of useless dollars, will start selling them with an obvious result in a fast drop of dollars value -u.s. prevents this with wars and partnerships with oil countries but this is not the point-

same in guild wars, considering the amount of traders and transaction is safe....