Gun Culture and the "right to bear arms" in America

[durabone]

I'm an American, from South Carolina, and I unfortunately must report that I have seen my share of brutality, stabbings, and KKK cross burnings. I was in a race riot once where those who stormed our satellite school with rocks and clubs were smart enough not to bring their guns.

This topic is about US gun ownership. I agree with most of what Guardian stated, but to me the mystery of this question is represented in the comparison of something Gimpy said with something Buddy said.

Buddy mentioned that the family members most close to guns have the most emotional problems. To me this is spot on. There are lots of types of gun owners here, but the ones who sleep with it under their pillow with every possible angle figured, and who have found confidence/esteem in merely holding and looking at steel creep me out.

I own guns. I made this move a few years ago when I realized that if the gov ever takes them away we are screwed, screwed. I do not love guns.

Gimpy's point about being trapped in a neighborhood where a cop might arrest/baton/tase you just because they treat everyone in that 'hood that way, may be lost on many readers in other developed countries. One has to live it to understand it, my guess.

As trust in the police declines, which it sadly has here, the emotionally troubled are pushed further towards fear. That is a sad fact. And since we just learned today that unmanned drones will debut in San Francisco on October 26th as part of operation "Urban Shield," (a drill) it is a near certainty that fear will get a sharp pump just before election day.

Edit: They had clubs, not knives. Sorry

 

[Guardian]

Heimdallr raises a good point - would the act of taking a life in order to save ones own have karmic backlash? This is assuming that there is no other option present, apart from letting yourself get killed.

In my personal experience, there's ALWAYS an option available other than "kill or be killed" ...and I have had men, much larger than I, physically try to kill, or at least serious hurt me, more than a 1/2 dozen times. To me, "kill or be killed" is programming...nothing more. Any time I'm told that there are only two choices, and I don't like either of them, I try to create a third option, and so far, it's worked every time. I much prefer "I embarrass an attacker or be killed" or, at worse, "I send attacker to the hospital for stitches or be killed" Physically, killing is relatively easy, with any weapon....blade or firearm. However, repelling an attacker, or multiple attackers, without taking a human life is much more difficult....but it CAN be done. I've done it.

To me, the key to surviving a violent encounter without killing your attacker is practice, practice, PRACTICE! Your weapon (whatever that is) must become an extension of your own body, and you must learn to use it without conscious thought...much the same as how your body and subconscious learns to react when you're driving a car and an animal runs in front of you. Your foot goes to the brake before you have time to consciously think "that's a deer in front of me, I should hit the brakes now" The same type "muscle memory" and "automatic reactions" you develop after years of driving practice works for any other tool, including weapons.

ANY tool can be used to kill a person, not just the .45 I carry. The .22 I keep in case I need a few squirrel or groundhogs for the bean pot, the ax I keep in the truck for when tree limbs fall across the road, the big screwdriver I keep in the glove box for when the 4WD hub won't release, the knife always in my pocket, the charging cord for my kindle, the pen clipped on my bag, etc. While some tools are easier to kill with than others, dern near anything can be used to take a human life....if that is the goal.

My goal, if attacked, is just the opposite, and I can use all of the above mentioned tools to save my life, without killing the assailant, but I'm likely to get hurt too, with the exception of the .45. The .45 gives me the option of stopping an attack, without getting hurt AND without killing another person, even a rapist....and I like that a lot.

 

[Redrock12]

Heimdallr raises a good point - would the act of taking a life in order to save ones own have karmic backlash? This is assuming that there is no other option present, apart from letting yourself get killed.

In my personal experience, there's ALWAYS an option available other than "kill or be killed" ...and I have had men, much larger than I, physically try to kill, or at least serious hurt me, more than a 1/2 dozen times. To me, "kill or be killed" is programming...nothing more. Any time I'm told that there are only two choices, and I don't like either of them, I try to create a third option, and so far, it's worked every time. I much prefer "I embarrass an attacker or be killed" or, at worse, "I send attacker to the hospital for stitches or be killed" Physically, killing is relatively easy, with any weapon....blade or firearm. However, repelling an attacker, or multiple attackers, without taking a human life is much more difficult....but it CAN be done. I've done it.

To me, the key to surviving a violent encounter without killing your attacker is practice, practice, PRACTICE! Your weapon (whatever that is) must become an extension of your own body, and you must learn to use it without conscious thought...much the same as how your body and subconscious learns to react when you're driving a car and an animal runs in front of you. Your foot goes to the brake before you have time to consciously think "that's a deer in front of me, I should hit the brakes now" The same type "muscle memory" and "automatic reactions" you develop after years of driving practice works for any other tool, including weapons.

ANY tool can be used to kill a person, not just the .45 I carry. The .22 I keep in case I need a few squirrel or groundhogs for the bean pot, the ax I keep in the truck for when tree limbs fall across the road, the big screwdriver I keep in the glove box for when the 4WD hub won't release, the knife always in my pocket, the charging cord for my kindle, the pen clipped on my bag, etc. While some tools are easier to kill with than others, dern near anything can be used to take a human life....if that is the goal.

My goal, if attacked, is just the opposite, and I can use all of the above mentioned tools to save my life, without killing the assailant, but I'm likely to get hurt too, with the exception of the .45. The .45 gives me the option of stopping an attack, without getting hurt AND without killing another person, even a rapist....and I like that a lot.

Guardian. Rational, well thought-out posts on the reasons for owning a handgun. You have caused me to rethink my position on gun ownership. In fact, I am now seriously considering purchasing one for self-protection.

 

[Lilou]

I grew up on a farm and my brothers had guns for hunting. I was never a very good shot, until I learned that I'm left handed but right eye dominant. So my accuracy really increased when I switched to shooting right handed. Even still, I always figured I needed one of those red laser dots to really hit what I was aiming for.

As for this discussion, I've always thought of guns as a tool. And it would be better to have one and not need it, than need it and not have it. Despite this, even when I had a psycho stalker, I did not get a gun. I just couldn't see myself actually using it. Instead, I had an escape scenario worked out in my head. Thank gawd, stalker moved out of the area and I've never had to implement it.

In all my years, I have never even seen a fist fight or any kind of violence in real life and I have never in my life been hit by anyone. I've always relied on my instinct (listening to my gut, that fear you should never dismiss) and turned tail to avoid potentially violent situations. So far, that has worked for me. I hope that continues to be the case, but if not, I'd be happy to have Guardian at my back! She's one tough cookie.

 

[JonnyRadar]

Fascinating discussion. To the best of my knowledge, guns were developed as a result of the original use of explosive powders in warfare, so one could say guns were invented for the purpose of killing people, not for hunting food. Hunting can be done efficiently without firearms (though it's a lot more difficult). I've used guns to hunt and grew up in an environment where they were common, but I do think the argument that one needs a gun to hunt is moot.

The "independence" and "liberty" arguments are also pretty weak, I think. It's a double-edge sword (no pun intended). The colonies used guns to fight off the British, and they also used them to kill Native Americans. They are tools, yes, but I think it merits consideration that the intent of their invention was to kill people - as opposed to say, a hammer, which can also kill but was not meant for such. Throughout history there are plenty of examples of non-violent resistance to power structures that worked, and worked well. The gun culture as Perceval has brought it up is, I think, a direct result of the pathological desire for warfare.

Where I live, it's a rural area, and I would hazard a guess that the rate of private gun ownership is close to if not more than 95%. gun violence here is low (in fact the last person that I know of that was shot here was shot by a police while wielding a golf club) - but I'll tell you what, opening day of rifle season is nerve-wracking and you do NOT want to be walking around without some kind of hunter's orange on so people can see you.

So here we are. The gun culture is alive and rampant, and LOTS of pathologicals (not to mention the previously stated gun owners with emotional problems) have guns. It's a scary situation. Heck, even kids have guns, legally. I think at this point it's up to each person to be responsible for themselves and for the children that look up to them.

If you own a gun, learn how to use it really well and don't mess around. If you don't want to own a gun I don't think it's a problem. Hunting can be done with archery, and self-defense can be done with martial arts and a number of other personal, non-lethal weapons - leaving us with the "defense against the government" argument. To that I say, does anyone really think their gun cabinet is going to help defend them against a tyrannical government who has at their disposal every kind of modern weaponry one could conceive of? I don't. The U.S. military and police forces are unstoppable (literally) killing machines. They were built that way and no private citizen stands a chance in hell in that kind of a conflict. See Ruby Ridge (_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge).

"Live by the sword, die by the sword" is apropos in this situation I think. Embracing the gun culture assures a higher probability that people will be killed by guns. In my mind, and at this point in history, I think it comes down to responsibility and discernment. I know a few idiots who I don't think should have guns. I stay away from those people as much as I'm able, but that's easier for me to do here than it would be in a city.

 

[JonnyRadar]

For what it's worth, and I think it's appropriate to this discussion, this is a Jon Ronson documentary on Ruby Ridge that's worth watching for some insight into the gun culture - _http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4565369222910430105

 

[Persej]

Found these stats for the most recent years on record (from _http://www.gunpolicy.org/)

Not a very good source of gun stats. Rate of gun ownership in Serbia is 15.81 per 100 people, not 58,21.

_http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2012/08/08/feature-01

 

[Buddy]

[quote author=Redrock12]
Guardian. Rational, well thought-out posts on the reasons for owning a handgun. You have caused me to rethink my position on gun ownership. In fact, I am now seriously considering purchasing one for self-protection.[/quote]

Interesting evaluation of Guardian's post. FWIW, I don't perceive her as arguing the case for gun ownership. I quite clearly perceive a description of a state of being approximating more of a Zen-like non-identification after appropriate training:

[quote author=Guardian]
To me, the key to surviving a violent encounter without killing your attacker is practice, practice, PRACTICE! Your weapon (whatever that is) must become an extension of your own body, and you must learn to use it without conscious thought...much the same as how your body and subconscious learns to react when you're driving a car and an animal runs in front of you. Your foot goes to the brake before you have time to consciously think "that's a deer in front of me, I should hit the brakes now" The same type "muscle memory" and "automatic reactions" you develop after years of driving practice works for any other tool, including weapons.[/quote]

And I think anyone can achieve a version of this experience of 'timeless duration' if they want to. I know a lady who dances to 'get there'. Another swims. I've gotten there by running and through my Wing Chun practice. Pirsig can get there by writing and can explain it in terms of motorcycle maintenance. After a few years training, Eugene Herrigel got there with Archery.

I think when we understand the concept, we can even see it in Gurdjieff's valuation of the man who can do something well (like make shoes or make coffee). Such a man is already familiar with non-identification and can be "talked to". Also, he can relax and is not so afraid that he won't be able to see options and possibilities in a situation where another may freeze up in some dualistic yes/no intellectual thought construct, OSIT.

So, in my view, the above quote is not exactly the same thing as arguing for gun ownership for everyone in every environment, in case anyone considers that worth thinking about. I hope I'm not the only one who sees this.

I wonder if it's just a strong but generalized fear that underlies a "gun culture" where ever such culture exists and maybe fear is what needs addressing in order to solve the problem? Could some people who buy and collect guns really be trying to protect themselves from having to feel afraid?

 

[andi]

I am amazed at what my eyes are reading on this thread. Some of you identify with guns to more than a healty degree - wow! I faint to only think of having to point a gun to someone. Seriously! gun owners, please revaluate the thoughts behind the ownership.

 

[Timey]

I am amazed at what my eyes are reading on this thread. Some of you identify with guns to more than a healty degree - wow! I faint to only think of having to point a gun to someone. Seriously! gun owners, please revaluate the thoughts behind the ownership.

From what I've read, the vast majority of the thoughts behind ownership that have been expressed here are either self-defence or hunting.
What's the issue with that?

 

[Voyageur]

[quote author=Approaching Infinity ]
It's interesting to compare Switzerland to Canada. Switzerland has about twice as many guns per person, and less than half the murder rate. But 3 out or 4 homicides are gun homicides, whereas in Canada, that number is close to 1/4.
[/quote]

From what is remembered; although not being from Switzerland and this may be in error, military service is compulsory (for men) there with annual follow up training. The statistic on guns may represent that each military participant in Switzerland is given a rifle to keep at home in case of national defense emergencies. Perhaps this accounts for their high ownership data and subsequent use in homicides. :/

 

[Oxajil]

I just read the following in my study textbook "Abnormal Psychology" by Nolen-Hoeksema that I thought could perhaps be worth posting here (bolded by me):

Guns and Suicide

In the United States, 57 percent of suicides involve guns (National Institute of Mental Health [NIMH], 2002). A longitudinal study of people who had purchased handguns in California found that their risk of suicide increased 57 times in the first week after the purchase (Wintemute et al., 1999). The majority of people who commit suicide by gun, however, use a gun that has been in their household for some time; the presence of a gun in the home increases the risk of suicide by 4 to 5 times (Brent & Bridge, 2003).

Indeed, the most frequent use of a gun in the home is for suicide. Researchers examined 398 consecutive deaths by gun in the homes of families who owned guns (usually handguns). Of these deaths, only 0.5 percent involved intruders shot by families protecting themselves. In contrast, 83 percent were suicides of adolescent or adult family members. Another 12 percent were homicides of one adult in the home by another family member, usually in the midst of a quarrel. The final 3 percent of deaths were due to accidental shootings of a family member (Kellermann, Rivara, Somes, & Reay, 1992).

The mere presence of a firearm in the home appears to be a risk factor for suicide when other risk factors are taken into account, especially when handguns are improperly secured or are kept loaded (Brent et al., 1991). These suicides do not occur only in people with mental disorders. One study found that while the presence of a gun in the home increased the risk of suicide by 3 times for people with a mental disorder, it increased the risk of suicide by 33 times for people without a mental disorder (Kellermann, Rivara, Somes, & Reay, 1992; see also Brent et al., 1993). This apparently counterintuitive finding is the result of the dramatic increase in impulsive suicides conveyed by having a loaded gun in the home, even among people without a known risk factor such as psychopathology (Brent & Bridges, 2003).

Can the number of such suicides be reduced by laws that restrict access to guns? Although not all studies find this to be the case (Ludwig & Cook, 2000), several studies have found that suicide rates are lower in cities, states, or countries with strict antigun legislation that limits people's access to guns (Brent & Bridges, 2003; Leenaars, 2007). For example, one international study showed that the proportion of suicides by gun decreased proportionately with the number of households owning guns; in addition, after countries enacted stricter gun control laws, the proportion of suicides involving guns decreased (Ajdacic-Gross et al., 2006; see also Bridges, 2004). Similarly, in the United States, states with nonrestrictive firearm laws (e.g., Alaska, Kentucky, Montana) or modest firearm laws (e.g., Colorado, North Carolina, Pennsylvania) were shown to have 50 to 65 percent higher rates of suicide by firearms than states with restrictive firearm laws (e.g., California, Illinois, New York), even after controlling for differences in socioeconomic status, race/ethnicity, and urbanization (Conner & Zhong, 2003).

Although people who are intent on committing suicide can find other means to do so when guns are not available, restricting ready access to them appears to reduce impulsive suicides with guns. In addition, some studies suggest that suicides by means other than guns ... show no increase when access to guns is restricted, suggesting that people do not consistently substitute different means of committing suicide when guns are not available (Conner & Zhong, 2003; but see Brent & Bridges, 2003). Instead, the unavailability of guns seems to give people a cooling off period, during which their suicidal impulses can wane (Brent & Bridges, 2003; Lambert & Silva, 1998).

 

[DavidHP]

Just my own experience with guns: grew up in Central America with guns in the house because my father was in the military, had my own gun when I was a teen and this date I still own guns and so does my wife.

For us is fun going to the range and shoot paper targets ; we do not hunt and only " carry " when to and from the gun range.

Only one time I have used a gun in defense when someone broke into the house at night, just the sound of loading a bullet into the firing chamber and the would be thief turn around a ran faster than a scared rabbit!

Guns and knives and swords, etc can be owned responsibly. Just my own opinion after 50 years of gun ownership.

I think the real problem is when you mix a society where guns are freely available and legal, and where there are many people who are poor, disillusioned, angry - essentially, a sick society. Then again, maybe a sick society tends to lead to a gun culture. Basically, I can't see the need for for the widespread availability and use of guns in a healthy society, even for recreational use. I mean, there are other ways to enjoy yourself.

Very true, I enjoy reading And scuba diving more than shooting, I should research if societies with strict gun control or no availability of guns have a lower crime rate. There is a sayin that when guns are prohibited only criminals have them, true? Don't know, yet another area of research.
Having said all that, I cannot see myself shooting another being, human or animal, it just feels so wrong!

 

[DavidHP]

There's one aspect of the US legal system I've always found peculiar. That is, correct me if I'm wrong, if someone enters your private property you're allowed to shoot him and kill him.

In many European countries shooting is legit only if it's an act of legitimate defense: the threat has to be real and your reaction has to be proportionate to the threat.

This aspect of the US law seems like an heritage of the far-west/settler culture where taking justice in one's own hand is, to some extent, accepted.

I can tell from personal experience that I would never shoot someone just because they entered my property, I would call the police if a threat is detected but I would try to avoid conflict by all possible means. I would defend myself if I or my loved ones are cornered, without a possibility of retreat but I don't think I would use deadly force but will try to wound my attackers. As a 61 year old 5'4" don't see why kill another being can be justified.

 

[DavidHP]

In my opinion the choice to own and to be ready to use a gun says something about the willingness to fight for one's existence down here on ol' Earth.
So a willingness to run the risk of killing a human to my eyes smacks of strong identification with this 3D excistence we chose to experience.
This again to my eyes signals a preparedness to make a 3D conflict one's top priority, over and above any idealistic opinions about an afterlife.

You must have read my mind! I have thinking along the same lines specially now with people prepping for whatever doomsday scenario they believe in. I kept thinking " is just your body " that will suffer or starve or.... I don't consider hunting to survive an option or store food for years and tons of ammo and then what? You are still stuck here! Fwiw