Hemochromatosis and Autoimmune Conditions

We've had four more people here tested and, as suspected, there are some high levels - one very high. So I think we may have found the fly in the paleo diet theory (or at least a major one) which may be the reason that it doesn't work for some people as it does for others. Or, it works in a bunch of ways, with concomitant development of other issues.

Clearly, if you are going paleo or keto for so many different ailments, you also need to be able to control the iron levels for optimal health. It may even be that heavy metal toxicity from our environment just exacerbates an iron accumulation issue. So EDTA and DMSA are in order for about everybody according to Sherry Rogers. EDTA will unload SOME iron, but not enough to handle high levels of ferritin. EDTA and regular blood donation should be about right for most people. It's fairly inexpensive: http://www.amazon.com/EDTA-750mg-120-Vegetarian-Capsules/dp/B007G42N1C/ref=sr_1_1?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1365765632&sr=1-1&keywords=edta

It is most important to TEST and at least TRY to talk to your doctor... or a couple doctors.

Also, keep in mind that so-called anemia often is part of the iron overload syndrome. Hemoglobin and hematocrit can't tell you anything about iron overload.

We are trying to find ways of working with the system, but if that proves impossible, you can be sure that I will not allow my child to go to the point of irreversible organ damage when the solution is really so easy.
 
Re: Hemochromatosis and Iron Overload

Laura said:
LQB said:
Laura said:
Gave 550 CCs today and paid close attention and asked a lot of questions. Might be useful if the doctor doesn't wake up and smell the coffee. Have to admit that parts of the process are queasy-making, but the alternative is worse.

I gave today today for the first time. Really all you need is a good needle (fat one), several feet of disposable tubing, a good beaker for measuring the draw, and a blood buddy to tell you when you've reached the goal.

Bit of warning based on experience. You need more than a beaker to measure: you need a closed system. Otherwise, the air causes the blood to clot beginning at the end of the tube and working its way up. That is, you need to put your tube through some kind of stopper into a container from which you can withdraw the air if possible. It is also important to keep the rubber band thingy on for the duration because that helps force the flow.

Needle size is 16 gauge. Anything smaller and you would need a suction device to keep things moving quickly enough.

The way I envisioned it there should be very little air involvement. If the blood buddy tilts the beaker (at the start), then a smooth pool of blood is formed immediately for the decanting blood to flow into without air turbulence. The height difference (to the needle) determines the flow rate. If the rough end of the tube begins to block due to clotting, then cutting a short piece from the end of the tube should return the flow.

I've never done this - this was just my thought.
 
Thank you Laura for the info, I hope a way will be found for your daughter to get better.

Laura said:
We are trying to find ways of working with the system, but if that proves impossible, you can be sure that I will not allow my child to go to the point of irreversible organ damage when the solution is really so easy.

It is really, really odd that they only give the diagnosis if there is liver damage. That sounds absolutely illogical to me. I wonder if there's a specialist out there who has a better understanding of hemochromatosis? I did some research on how things go here in the Netherlands, in a nutshell: when your ferritin levels are high, including your transferrin saturation, your DNA will be tested for "C282Y/C282Y" or "C282Y/H63D", if this DNA test turns out positive, you are allowed to be described phlebotomies (until your ferritin is <50 µg/l).

If the DNA test turns out to be negative (i.e. these mutations were not found), you will then go through an MRI to test whether Fe levels are high, if they are, you will get another diagnosis of hemachromatosis (type 1-4?), and you are allowed to have phlebotomies as well. However, if your Fe levels turn out to be normal from the MRI, then ''Hemochromatosis is currently no explanation of the symptoms".

And only if your ferritin levels are higher than 1000 µg/l will they check for possible liver damage.

Here's a document with more explanation for Dutch members: _http://www.hemochromatose.nl/documents/pdf-bestanden/richtlijn-hemochromatose.pdf
 
Videos:

4 minutes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc_IUxTPDC4
Poor guy has gone vegetarian which is not good.

The doctor mentions that there are various symptoms depending on which organ is taking the main iron overload.

Six minutes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy4n0fJarYE

Doctor says possibly as many as 40% of the population have iron overload.
Most of the time, there are no early symptoms.
Women of childbearing age may tend to be deficient or at least normal. So if you are in this age bracket, you need to be tested before you assume you have high iron.
Cancer cells love iron.
Bacteria love iron.

6 minutes basic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx6EXTvaDUE
There are genetic and NON-genetic causes.

11 minutes: another how-to with the butterfly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-6nATSEgCI
Very detailed. It seems that using a series of vacutainers might work but could be expensive.


3 minutes news report: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z388pQrRtCI
Woman thought she had anemia, but it was the opposite. She tells how she felt - tired and unwell.
The most common genetic disorder in Canada.
Symptoms: fatigue, joint or abdominal pain.
Three days after donating, she feels like a new woman.

Another 3 minute news report: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1t9Dv2i9y8
Woman started having trouble with her feet. Then her legs started hurting. She couldn't stand even the sheets touching her skin. Her hair started falling out... she was in bad shape.

30 seconds ad. Lists main symptoms: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5HDqlqfvHQ

17 minutes: instructional, pretty detailed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA0WlfDZEgA
Says the main symptom is fatigue and doctors then prescribe iron which only makes the condition worse.
He says definitively that the gene is recessive and it seems that this may not be the case based on more recent research. Heterozygotes can suffer.
Interviews a guy who had a heart attack as a result of Hemochromatosis.

8 minutes, Dr. Mercola: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8pQsH7c1sc

8 minutes: how to do it with a butterfly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3pTHLQWvjc
 
Re: Hemochromatosis and Iron Overload

LQB said:
The way I envisioned it there should be very little air involvement. If the blood buddy tilts the beaker (at the start), then a smooth pool of blood is formed immediately for the decanting blood to flow into without air turbulence. The height difference (to the needle) determines the flow rate. If the rough end of the tube begins to block due to clotting, then cutting a short piece from the end of the tube should return the flow.

I've never done this - this was just my thought.

I had the same fantasy. It didn't work out that way. The air contacting the blood starts some kind of reaction that is passed from cell to cell and clotting begins in earnest all the way up the line. Cutting the tube doesn't do it. 200 ccs before it shut itself down completely was all I got.
 
I haven't done it muself yet (will next week). But thought that maybe adding sodium citrate into the beaker might prevent clotting (it's an anticoagulant, that's what the blood bank is adding to the blood being collected). Not sure if magnesium citrate is anticoagulating as well, but might be worth a try ...
 
Re: Hemochromatosis and Iron Overload

Laura said:
LQB said:
The way I envisioned it there should be very little air involvement. If the blood buddy tilts the beaker (at the start), then a smooth pool of blood is formed immediately for the decanting blood to flow into without air turbulence. The height difference (to the needle) determines the flow rate. If the rough end of the tube begins to block due to clotting, then cutting a short piece from the end of the tube should return the flow.

I've never done this - this was just my thought.

I had the same fantasy. It didn't work out that way. The air contacting the blood starts some kind of reaction that is passed from cell to cell and clotting begins in earnest all the way up the line. Cutting the tube doesn't do it. 200 ccs before it shut itself down completely was all I got.

Bummer - thanks for the info - I'll not be trying that then. I'll see if I can find some veterinary H/W that might fit the bill.

nicklebleu said:
I haven't done it muself yet (will next week). But thought that maybe adding sodium citrate into the beaker might prevent clotting (it's an anticoagulant, that's what the blood bank is adding to the blood being collected). Not sure if magnesium citrate is anticoagulating as well, but might be worth a try ...

One thing I noticed years ago when I was taking nattokinase/serrapeptase is that when I cut myself (while taking these), it took much longer to stop the bleeding. A dose of these might just work long enough to get the desired amount decanted.
 
I did a search and either I bother doctors (which I will do as well) that they do the bloodletting thing and need to explain myself everytime just to give it a try. I found that in Germany some natural health professionals are also allowed doing it, they follow a so called person Hildegard von Bingen and allow to withdraw a maximum of 150-200ml of blood. I don't know how much they do charge for it, but is a solution to give blood when everything else fails and I like to give it a try.

Cause of the symptoms I don't know if my reoccurring abdominal pain is eventually related as well (or too much fat) with this and beside this night I thought I would suffocate and woke up to catch breath again, which may is a reason of my chronic fatigue and weakness over the day.
 
Gawan said:
I did a search and either I bother doctors (which I will do as well) that they do the bloodletting thing and need to explain myself everytime just to give it a try. I found that in Germany some natural health professionals are also allowed doing it, they follow a so called person Hildegard von Bingen and allow to withdraw a maximum of 150-200ml of blood. I don't know how much they do charge for it, but is a solution to give blood when everything else fails and I like to give it a try.

Cause of the symptoms I don't know if my reoccurring abdominal pain is eventually related as well (or too much fat) with this and beside this night I thought I would suffocate and woke up to catch breath again, which may is a reason of my chronic fatigue and weakness over the day.

Did you have your iron levels tests yet? Ferritin, etc?
 
Some results of Ferritin and FE and some others that were not within range, some others are at the border of too low or too high:

Ferritin 164 ng
FE 22,2 umol/l
MCH (should be 26-34.0) 1,96 pg
ALBU (0.56 - 0.66) 67,7 kA
ALP1 (0.02-0.06) 2,7 kA
ALP2 (0.05-0.10) 6,9 kA
AP (0.67 - 2.15) 2.25 pmol/l
BETA (0.09-0.14) 8,80 kA
CHOL 6,18 mmol/l
GAM (0.12-0.20) 13,9 kA

Overall the list contains over 40 entries what was tested. My doctor said that everything is alright also liver results, he was only concerned about ketones and a bit elevated CHOL, but was much lower than the last test from November last year.
 
Re: Hemochromatosis and Iron Overload

LQB said:
One thing I noticed years ago when I was taking nattokinase/serrapeptase is that when I cut myself (while taking these), it took much longer to stop the bleeding. A dose of these might just work long enough to get the desired amount decanted.

That is good to know, I mean, as a way of thinning the blood enough so it would go through the needle. Otherwise a cheap option would be aspirin at least 4 days before the decanting. I read this on one of the hemochromatosis websites. It basically said that if you are using a butterfly needle, a patient must take aspirin twice per week before the decanting.

The 16 gauge is the preferred needle in a blood donation so that red blood cells won't get damaged. But for decanting purposes, where blood will be discarded, anything might work depending on your "suction" device, closed system and/or patience.

I've spoken with old time nurses, who used to do decantings when all these techie gadgets were non existent. She said that basically they used a 16, 18 or 20 gauge needle, or even smaller. Then they took a 500 ml bag of any liquid (glucose 5%, physiological solution, etc.) and emptied it. Then, they use an IV set to connect the emptied bag with the needle and that was their closed system for decanting. The bag remains on the floor for "siphoning" purposes. Nowadays there are special sets for hemochromatosis patients, which is basically pretty close or the same as blood donation sets.
 
Here is another good synthesis on the subject which also has some concepts that I haven't read just yet in this thread. Notice it is from 1994:

Iron overload - the missed diagnosis

Cutler, Paul, M.D.
Consumer Health
Fri, 11 Nov 1994 11:42 CST

http://www.sott.net/article/260752-Iron-overload-the-missed-diagnosis

My interest in iron metabolism began around 1986 when I read an article published in The Mayo Clinic Proceedings by Virgil Fairbanks who was then chief of iron metabolism. His article, "Hemochromatosis or Iron Overload - the Neglected Diagnosis" was a scathing attack on the medical profession for ignoring excess iron in the body. Physicians were more interested in anaemias and low iron deficiency and did not really perform the necessary tests of iron metabolism to diagnose the opposite end of the spectrum - iron overload. He described conditions directly related to excess iron in the body such as arthritis, diabetes, psychiatric illness, and liver disease.

These conditions were very common in my medical practice, and I decided to find out how many of my patients had excess iron, and it turned out to be a significant number, as many as 30% of my patients. When I began to lower the iron levels, my patients improved, and I published some research articles on the subject in some rather prestigious medical journals. By 1989, doctors began publishing research which showed that iron was also a risk factor in cancer at levels that were far less than what they had thought safe in the past. In September 1992, a classic article in Circulation by Jerome Sullivan showed that excess iron was also a risk factor in heart disease, second only to cigarette smoking as a cause of heart attacks in men. Sullivan's study sent shock waves through the medical and nutritional communities because doctors have been prescribing supplementary iron, and nutritionists have been insisting that food be fortified with iron, and this was a reminder that excess iron is very dangerous. In the following year, studies were published which showed that vitamin E and vitamin C reduced the rates of heart attacks and angina, and when you put all of these studies together, you realize that iron is capable of inducing free radical or oxidative pathology.

Effect of excess iron on anti-oxidants

Two thirds of the iron in the body is in the hemoglobin itself where it is believed to be safe, about 6% in muscle and various important iron enzymes, and 27 to 30% in storage and this has now been shown to be no longer safe but it will overwhelm the cells and cause free radical pathology. Free radicals are normally produced in the body for metabolism of oxygen, but free radicals can also be produced by excess ultra violet radiation, excess sunlight, tobacco smoke, and an excess of any metals such as iron or copper and they can deplete the antioxidants such as vitamin C and E in the body. Free radicals are atoms with an unpaired or an extra electron in any orbit, usually the outer one. The free radicals create havoc to normal cells by removing electrons from the normal cells to pair their own missing electron, and this damages the healthy cell which in turn tries to draw electrons from an adjacent cell, and this chain reaction of destruction will continue, unless there are enough antioxidants to step in and donate electrons to these cells or to the free radicals and stop the attack. So as the iron builds up, the antioxidants go down. Therefore in order to offset the adverse affects of excess iron, you need adequate supplies of the antioxidants vitamin C, vitamin E, and beta carotene, often in amounts much larger than the average balanced diet can supply.

Cancer

Tumour cells and bacteria need iron to grow, and your body tries to starve them of iron by diverting the iron from the blood to storage sites deep within the tissues. It is well known, biochemically, that if you add iron to tumour cells in cultures, they grow at a much faster rate and that breast cancer cells thrive on iron. In 1988, many studies began to surface showing that iron was indeed a risk in common cancers such as lung, colon, bladder, oesophagus, and at levels that were shockingly less than doctors had previously considered dangerous. A study in the New England Journal of Medicine (Oct. 1988) by Dr. Richard Stevens showed that as iron saturation levels increase, cancer rates go up. Until that time a 65% saturation level was considered to be safe, but this study showed that at a 37% saturation level, the cancer rate started to skyrocket, and doctors began to question the levels they had previously considered safe. In January 1994, in the International Journal of Cancer, Dr. Stevens reported that cancer rates were increasing at levels of only 31%.

Atherosclerosis

Some interesting findings came out of the 1992 Sullivan study. Many doctors began reporting that as iron levels increase, as ferritin goes up above 200, the cholesterol levels also go up, especially the LDL (bad) cholesterol, regardless of changes in diet such as reducing high cholesterol foods. Blood sugar goes up, blood pressure goes up, triglycerides go up and HDL levels go down. Despite all the recent studies in cardiology and cardiovascular surgery journals, I still don't know of any cardiovascular surgeons who put their patients on vitamin E or attempt to remove excess iron before they do these procedures. Doctors don't seem to want to recommend nutritional supplements. Under 5% recommend vitamin E to heart patients. It's tragic, because they know better.

Fatigue

The most common symptom of iron overload is weakness, lethargy and a fatigue that is disabling. As the iron builds up it disturbs other body processes and depletes certain minerals and vitamins such as zinc, and vitamin E and vitamin C.

Cirrhosis of the liver

Abdominal pain is the next most common symptom and this is usually in the right upper quadrant because the liver is involved. In iron overload patients, cirrhosis of the liver is 13 times more common than in the general population.

Arthritis

Arthritis caused by iron is common in anywhere from 35 to 60% of people who have arthritis, especially in young people, and it will start with the first three fingers, or the knuckle joints of the thumb, index and third fingers; although any joints can be involved, these will get the brunt of it.

Endocrine imbalance: thyroid, adrenals, diabetes

Iron has a marked affinity for the different glands. One of the first glands that is affected is the pituitary, and it is common to find evidence of low pituitary hormones. Testosterone production in the testicles is reduced and this can cause impotence. Iron can also affect the thyroid, and the adrenal glands and will eventually affect all tissues if untreated, but endocrine tissues are the most affected. And the most common endocrine manifestation is diabetes.

Psychiatric disorders

If the iron is not needed by the bone marrow to make new red cells, then it goes to tissues like the liver. The next major source for storage of iron is the brain. Iron affects the neurotransmitters in the brain, affecting the hydroxylase system in the brain, so that psychiatric symptoms and neurological symptoms like confusional states, dizziness, mood disorders, and even ringing in the ears are relatively common.

Alzheimer's disease

Dr. Richardson, Chief of Psychiatry at the University of Saskatchewan feels the major cause of Alzheimer's Disease is excess brain iron levels. So as liver iron builds up, brain iron levels build up. Dr. McLachlan at the University of Toronto Dementia Clinic showed that aluminum was the cause of Alzheimer's Disease (D.R.C. McLachlan et al. Desferroxamine. Lancet, June 1991). He is using an iron chelator called deferoxamine to treat Alzheimer's Disease and his results are probably better than any other treatment program for Alzheimer's. He stated that the drug arrests the disease. Dr. Richardson and Dr. McLachlan have been arguing, "Is it the iron, or is it the aluminum?" The same medication lowered both. It is my feeling that iron is a far greater risk in this condition than is aluminum.

Pigmentation

Iron overload has often been called the "bronze disease", because untreated people can develop this natural beautiful tan without going out in the sun, but that is an end stage and we don't see that any more, but you will see isolated patches of brown that almost look like coffee stains on the skin. These clear up dramatically and the bronzing goes away as the iron is removed.

Causes of iron overload

Hereditary

Hereditary hemochromatosis is a genetic disease in which abnormal genes permit the individual to absorb too much iron from an ordinary diet. This hereditary factor is probably the most common way people get overloaded with iron. There is no real mechanism for controlling iron absorption in the body. Outside of menstruation, the body really has no way of getting rid of extra iron. Normally the average diet contains 15 to 25 mg. of iron and yet all we need is one mg. per day for normal metabolism. In hemochromatosis, 3 or 4 mg. of iron per day are absorbed instead of the 1 mg. we need, and over the years this results in massive overloading and accumulation of iron in the vital organs. As many as 20% of the population has the genetic potential to overload with iron from what we would call a normal dietary intake. Jerome Sullivan who has published papers on iron as a cause of heart disease since 1981 believes that hereditary hemochromatosis is basically the reason some families have a greatly increased risk of heart disease.

Transfusions

Certain anemias require a lot of transfusions and patients can be overloaded with iron in this way.

Supplements

If you take iron supplements over an extended period of time when you don't need them, you will overload with iron. Many in the medical profession have been guilty of abusing prescription of iron supplements without even performing iron blood studies because they felt iron was safe. Also, people who have too much iron can get very sick from taking vitamin C and must use vitamin C carefully because it increases iron absorption especially when taken during or after meals.

Nutritional intake

There are sources of nutritional dietary iron which raise the iron levels in the body such as red meat and alcohol. Iron exists in two forms and this is important to remember because they are absorbed differently. The heme iron, meat iron or ferrous iron has probably around 12 to 15% absorption, whereas the non-heme, ferric or plant iron has only 2 to 5% absorption. This is why the studies by Sullivan and others have shown that it is the red meat iron that really has to be restricted in diets for people with iron overload, and plant iron is not considered to be a major offender in iron overload states. Iron fortified enriched foods can raise iron levels and are now being questioned. Water with excessive iron levels can cause something called Kachung's Disease, a disease reported in China, which is an arthritis and heart disease from excess iron. There is the classic Bantu disease occurring in Bantus who brewed beer in pots that are excessively high in iron. Iron cooking utensils can increase the iron content in the food from 3 to 10 fold. This is especially true of acidic foods such as tomato sauce. Alcohol per se is not high in iron, but it's a potent reducing agent and reducing agents can convert the ferric from plant iron to the ferrous or heme iron, and will increase the absorption of iron from the intestine.

Screening for excess iron

There are four necessary tests: serum iron, TIBC (total iron binding capacity), percent transferrin saturation and serum ferritin. Acceptable transferrin saturation was previously 60%; it is now less than 30%. The safe level of stored iron, called ferritin, was previously 500; after Sullivan's 1992 study, most people accept 120 as normal and 200 as being significantly toxic. So now we have figures which are about half of what was considered safe only a year or two ago.

Treatment

Dr. Fairbanks at the Mayo Clinic said that conditions that are related to iron will often be completely cured when the iron is removed, and scientists are now doing research to show that you can reverse all of these problems which increase with iron overload by drawing the blood or lowering the iron. Excess iron is toxic and it doesn't matter whether your excess iron is genetic or acquired, it has to be removed. Most iron related problems seem to occur in men in their late 40's around 49 to 55, and in women around 60 to 65. The accepted treatment for most people is by removal of blood. If you draw out the blood, the iron comes out with it. Most of the time we do it once per week for around 15 to 20 blood removals. We do the same as the Red Cross, we remove 400 or 500 ml. to correct this. 95% of the time we use blood removal or phlebotomy and 5% we use iron chelators like deferoxamine. There are certain problems which do not respond to blood letting such as the type of arthritis caused by iron overload. Chelators are used in these cases to draw the iron out of the joints and the arthritis is cured. The Hospital for Sick Children is now researching an oral iron chelator which may replace all of this but it will require years of testing.
 
Muxel said:
Jeanne A. Brohart's website
_http://www.autismhelpforyou.com/anemia.htm

Are the kidneys being overworked in iron loading disorders as they help stimulate the production of red blood cells and address iron overload issues via the excretion of water soluble bilirubin (which can bind to iron) via urine production. Is this why "how often one has to go to the bathroom" is an indicator of potential diabetes?

Does this mean proteinuria may be caused by hemochromatosis? I seem to recall some people have unexplained proteinuria.

There are some things which may suggest I may have this problem.

1: In school I was tested for anemia because I lacked energy and they thought I may be anemic because I was pale. The test apparently came up negative, but I do not remember the details.

2: I have had periods of time where my nose would bleed often and sometimes it would last for a long time. I seem to recall this may have happened when taking vitamin B supplements, but I may be wrong.

3: I have asked a doctor about it and he said it didn't stand out but I have always thought my skin was a bit yellowish. (bilirubin excreting iron?)

4: I also have foamy urine, which is supposed to indicate proteinuria. I have tried many many things to get rid of the foam, and I was surprised to find that the ONLY thing that would do it was a bowl of bone broth or bone-in roast broth, and very strict adherence to a ketogenic diet with very little if any carbs. While broth is available, my skin seems to lighten in color and my complexion returns to a creamy white, which is what I thought it was supposed to look like based on photos of my younger self.

5: I have tried taking milk thisle along with my digestive enzymes, used up a big bottle and did not notice any improvement.

6: I have slow bowels, so I drink 3/4tsp salt in a glass each morning, and 4g vitamin C with 1200mg magnesium citrate before bed. The ratio and amounts are a somewhat delicate balance between constipation and diahrrea.

I would go see a doctor but with our budget there is just no way to afford that, especially with the risk of coming up empty-handed if a doctor refuses to work with me.

If one used a bag for decanting, one could pull on the sides of the bag to produce suction.
 
Gawan said:
Some results of Ferritin and FE and some others that were not within range, some others are at the border of too low or too high:

Ferritin 164 ng
FE 22,2 umol/l

Can you donate blood with diabetes? If so, the regular schedule might be sufficient. Or a few cycles of EDTA. Or both.
 
monotonic said:
I would go see a doctor but with our budget there is just no way to afford that, especially with the risk of coming up empty-handed if a doctor refuses to work with me.

If one used a bag for decanting, one could pull on the sides of the bag to produce suction.

If you cannot get the blood tests, don't even think about decanting. You need to know where your levels are FIRST.
 
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