Henry Makow on Ponerology

Think about it this way:

Suppose the book was about the types of individuals sexually molesting children and an analysis of the character traits they have in common. Then, along comes a child molester and declares the book to be wrong because it puts the blame on child molesters instead of on the children who are bad because they attract the molesters.

That is exactly what we see here.

There is something schizoidal about the mind that cannot get to the crux of a matter and that is what Makow appears to demonstrate here. (IMO) He says: "Lobaczewski completely overlooks the obvious, that "leaders" belong to a satanic cult, the Illuminati (Cabalist Judaism/ Freemasonry) and are dedicated to enslaving and destroying humanity. The secret government is Freemasonry!"

It is almost irrelevant which club any of those "leaders" belongs to and Makow appears to lump them all together without distinction of time or place. When you study history as long as I have, you see clearly that the same dynamics that are playing out in our world today have played out before, again and again, and there was no such thing as "Illuminati" or "Freemasons" in those times. It is purely and simply psychopathology. THAT is the crux of the matter.

Now, whether or not some psychopaths have infiltrated the Masons, Cabalists, whether or not such as the Illuminati exist, is pretty much irrelevant to the main issue: that it is psychopaths who have twisted and perverted the stated ideologies of said groups. The same is true for Christianity. Because, remember, Illuminati is supposed to be a CHRISTIAN based "club". So, what could Christian Illuminati and Jewish Cabalists and Freemasons, who can include both, have in common? Psychopaths that have infiltrated and use the ideology for their own purposes.

Now, as to Makow's own character, his apparently twisted, misogynistic world view is siggested to anyone who reads his works, which we have done rather extensively. As AI points out:

AI said:
Being that Makow has pathological beliefs about homosexuals and women, it's understandable that he would reject ponerology, which places the blame for the world's problems on people who share his beliefs. That's actually one of the main points in the book: like attracts like, ponerogenically.

As to why he's incorrect, that should be pretty obvious if you read Ponerology. It is a person's character that determines their place in a pathocratic hierarchy. Freemasonry, as well as any other group membership, is an ideological front. It only serves to mask pathology.

What we seem to see in Makow is rather similar to the mentality of, for example, Mignini, the prosecutor of the "Monster of Florence" and Amanda Knox murder cases. Both of them demonstrate something that Niccolo Capponi calls Dietrologia: (See Preston and Spezi's book on "The Monster of Florence").

"Dietrologia,” said Count Niccolo. “That is the only Italian word you need to know to understand the Monster of Florence investigation.” ...

Dietro—behind. Logia—the study of. ... Dietrologia is the idea that the obvious thing cannot be the truth. There is always something hidden behind, dietro. It isn’t quite what you Americans call conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theory implies theory, something uncertain, a possibility. The dietrologist deals only in fact. This is how it really is. Aside from football, dietrologia is the national sport in Italy. Everyone is an expert at what's really going on, even . . . how do you Americans say it? . . . even if they don’t know jack -shite-.”

“Why?” I asked.

"Because it gives them a feeling of importance! This importance may only be confined to a small circle of idiotic friends, but at least they are in the know. Potere, power, is that I know what you do not know. Dietrologia is tied to the Italian mentality of power. You must appear to be in the know about all things.” ...

"At all costs, they have to find something behind the apparent reality. There cannot not be something. Why? Because it is not possible that the thing you see is the truth. Nothing is simple, nothing is as it seems. Does it look like a suicide? Yes? Well then it must be murder. Somebody went out for coffee? Aha! He went out for coffee . . . But what was he really doing?” ...

“In Italy,” he continued, “there is a permanent climate of witch-hunting. You see, Italians are fundamentally envious. If somebody makes money, there must be a fiddle there somewhere. Of course he was in cahoots with someone else. Because of the cult of materialism here, Italians envy the rich and powerful. They’re suspicious of them and at the same time want to be them. They have a love-hate relationship with them. Berlusconi is a classic example.”

'And that’s why the investigators are looking for a satanic sect of the rich and powerful?”...

“In Italy, the hatred of your enemy is such that he has to be built up, made into the ultimate adversary, responsible for all evil. The investigators in the Monster case know that behind the simple facts hides a satanic cult, its tentacles reaching into the highest levels of society. This is what they will prove, no matter what. Woe to the person”—he eyed me significantly—“who disputes their theory because that makes him an accomplice. The more vehemently he denies being involved, the stronger is the proof.”...

....an Italian must always appear to be furbo. You don't have an English equivalent for that marvelous word. It means a person who is wily and cunning, who knows which way the wind is blowing, who can fool you but never be fooled himself. Everyone in Italy wants to believe the worst of others so they don't end up looking gullible. Above all, they want to be seen as furbo."

So, this "lust to power," so to say, combined with endemic envy and over-weening self-importance appears to be the psychological state behind Makow's writings. I would even suggest that he has this "lust to power" because inside, he feels powerless. That feeling of inner powerlessness has to be compensated and that results in the typical hubris of the pathological or pathologized individual. I actually think it rather relates to hystericization of society which is a consequence of habitual psychological selection and substitution exactly as described in Political Ponerology.

When the First World War broke out, young officers danced and sang on the streets of Vienna: “Krieg, Krieg, Krieg! Es wird ein schoener Krieg ...”. While visiting Upper Austria in 1978, I decided to drop in on the local parson, who was in his seventies by then. When I told him about myself, I suddenly realized he thought I was lying and inventing pretty stories. He subjected my statements to psychological analysis, based on this unassailable assumption and attempted to convince me that his morals were lofty. When I complained to a friend of mine about this, he was amused: “As a psychologist, you were extremely lucky to catch the survival of authentic Austrian talk (die oesterreichische Rede). We young ones have been incapable of demonstrating it to you even if we wanted to simulate it.”

In the European languages, “Austrian talk” has become the common descriptive term for paralogistic discourse. Many people using this term nowadays are unaware of its origin. Within the context of maximum hysterical intensity in Europe at the time, the authentic article represented a typical product of conversive thinking: subconscious selection and substitution of data leading to chronic avoidance of the crux of the matter. In the same manner, the reflex assumption that every speaker is lying is an indication of the hysterical anti-culture of mendacity, within which telling the truth becomes “immoral”.

Regarding the issue of habitual Selection and Substitution which appears to be (IMO) at the root of Makow's problems, as evidenced in his writings, Lobaczewski explains:

Information selection and substitution: ... Unconscious psychological processes outstrip conscious reasoning, both in time and in scope, which makes many psychological phenomena possible: including those generally described as conversive, such as subconscious blocking out of conclusions, the selection, and, also, substitution of seemingly uncomfortable premises.

We speak of blocking out conclusions if the inferential process was proper in principle and has almost arrived at a conclusion and final comprehension within the act of internal projection, but becomes stymied by a preceding directive from the subconscious, which considers it inexpedient or disturbing. This is primitive prevention of personality disintegration, which may seem advantageous; however, it also prevents all the advantages which could be derived from consciously elaborated conclusion and reintegration. A conclusion thus rejected remains in our subconscious and in a more unconscious way causes the next blocking and selection of this kind. This can be extremely harmful, progressively enslaving a person to his own subconscious, and is often accompanied by a feeling of tension and bitterness.

We speak of selection of premises whenever the feedback goes deeper into the resulting reasoning and from its database thus deletes and represses into the subconscious just that piece of information which was responsible for arriving at the uncomfortable conclusion. Our subconscious then permits further logical reasoning, except that the outcome will be erroneous in direct proportion to the actual significance of the repressed data. An ever-greater number of such repressed information is collected in our subconscious memory. Finally, a kind of habit seems to take over: similar material is treated the same way even if reasoning would have reached an outcome quite advantageous to the person.

The most complex process of this type is substitution of premises thus eliminated by other data, ensuring an ostensibly more comfortable conclusion. Our associative ability rapidly elaborates a new item to replace the removed one, but it is one leading to a comfortable conclusion. This operation takes the most time, and it is unlikely to be exclusively subconscious. Such substitutions are often effected collectively, in certain groups of people, through the use of verbal communication. That is why they best qualify for the moralizing epithet “hypocrisy” than either of the above-mentioned processes.

PP goes into character disorders and how they interact on the social scale. In the case of Makow, as mentioned already, taking a look at Schizoidal psychopathy is worthwhile:

Schizoidia: Schizoidia, or schizoidal psychopathy, was isolated by the very first of the famous creators of modern psychiatry. From the beginning, it was treated as a lighter form of the same hereditary taint which is the cause of susceptibility to schizophrenia. However, this latter connection could neither be confirmed nor denied with the help of statistical analysis, and no biological test was then found which would have been able to solve this dilemma. For practical reasons, we shall discuss schizoidia with no further reference to this traditional relationship.

Literature provides us with descriptions of several varieties of this anomaly, whose existence can be attributed either to changes in the genetic factor or to differences in other individual characteristics of a non-pathological nature. Let us thus sketch these sub-species’ common features.

Carriers of this anomaly are hypersensitive and distrustful, while, at the same time, pay little attention to the feelings of others. They tend to assume extreme positions, and are eager to retaliate for minor offenses. Sometimes they are eccentric and odd. Their poor sense of psychological situation and reality leads them to superimpose erroneous, pejorative interpretations upon other people’s intentions.

They easily become involved in activities which are ostensibly moral, but which actually inflict damage upon themselves and others. Their impoverished psychological worldview makes them typically pessimistic regarding human nature. We frequently find expressions of their characteristic attitudes in their statements and writings: “Human nature is so bad that order in human society can only be maintained by a strong power created by highly qualified individuals in the name of some higher idea.” Let us call this typical expression the “schizoid declaration”.

...When they become wrapped up in situations of serious stress, however, the schizoid’s failings cause them to collapse easily. The capacity for thought is thereupon characteristically stifled, and frequently the schizoids fall into reactive psychotic states so similar in appearance to schizophrenia that they lead to misdiagnoses.

The common factor in the varieties of this anomaly is a dull pallor of emotion and lack of feeling for the psychological realities, an essential factor in basic intelligence. This can be attributed to some incomplete quality of the instinctive substratum, which works as though founded on shifting sand. Low emotional pressure enables them to develop proper speculative reasoning, which is useful in non-humanistic spheres of activity, but because of their one-sidedness, they tend to consider themselves intellectually superior to “ordinary” people.

The quantitative frequency of this anomaly varies among races and nations: low among Blacks, the highest among Jews. Estimates of this frequency range from negligible up to 3 %. In Poland it may be estimated as 0.7 % of population. My observations suggest this anomaly is autosomally hereditary.

A schizoid’s ponerological activity should be evaluated in two aspects. On the small scale, such people cause their families trouble, easily turn into tools of intrigue in the hands of clever and unscrupulous individuals, and generally do a poor job of raising children.

Their tendency to see human reality in the doctrinaire and simplistic manner they consider “proper” – i.e. “black or white” - transforms their frequently good intentions into bad results. However, their ponerogenic role can have macrosocial implications if their attitude toward human reality and their tendency to invent great doctrines are put to paper and duplicated in large editions.

In spite of their typical deficits, or even an openly schizoidal declaration, their readers do not realize what the authors’ characters are really like. Ignorant of the true condition of the author, such uninformed readers thed to interpret such works in a manner corresponding to their own nature. The minds of normal people tend toward corrective interpretation due to the participation of their own richer, psychological world view. ...

{Schizoidal psychopaths as} doctrinaire people believe they have found a simple solution to fix the world. ...These doctrinaire individuals characteristically manifest a certain contempt with regard to... the need to rediscover lost human values and to develop a richer, more appropriate psychological world view.

Schizoid characters aim to impose their own conceptual world upon other people or social groups, using relatively controlled pathological egotism and the exceptional tenacity derived from their persistent nature. They are thus eventually able to overpower another individual’s personality, which causes the latter’s behavior to turn desperately illogical. They may also exert a similar influence upon the group of people they have joined. They are psychological loners who then begin to feel better in some human organization, wherein they become zealots for some ideology, religious bigots, materialists, or adherents of an ideology with satanic features. If their activities consist of direct contact on a small social scale, their acquaintances generally just consider them to be eccentric, which limits their ponerogenic role. However, if they manage to hide their own personality behind the written word, their influence may poison the minds of society on a wide scale and for a long time.

As to Makow's audience:

Societal interpretation of such writings and doctrinaire declarations breaks down into main trifurcations, engendering divisiveness and conflict.

The first branch is the path of aversion, based on rejection of the contents of the work due to personal motivations, differing convictions, or moral revulsion. These reactions contain the component of a moralistic interpretation of pathological phenomena.

The second and third branches relate to two distinctly different apperception types among those persons who accept the contents of such works: the critically-corrective and the pathological.

The critically-corrective approach is taken by people whose feel for psychological reality is normal and they tend to incorporate the more valuable elements of the work. They then trivialize the obvious errors and fill in the missing elements of the schizoid deficiencies by means of their own richer world view. This gives rise to a more sensible, measured, and thus creative interpretation, but is cannot be completely free from the influence of the error frequently adduced above.

Pathological acceptance is manifested by individuals with psychological deficiencies of their own: diversiform deviations, whether inherited or acquired, as well as by many people bearing personality malformations or who have been injured by social injustice. That explains why this scope is wider than the circle drawn by direct action of pathological factors. Pathological acceptance of schizoidal writings or declarations by other deviants often brutalizes the authors’ concepts and promotes ideas of force and revolutionary means.

So, as noted, we have read plenty of Makow's work and also have heard from others who have had personal interactions with him and the above is just my opinion based on years of collecting data. He has been discussed among members of this forum and so herondancer gave the shorthand version of all of the above when she wrote:

herondancer said:
Makow is an awful human being imo. He used to post the most misogynist stuff on rense. Here's his wikipedia thumnail"

"Henry Makow is a Canadian author, campaigner against homosexuality, public opponent of Zionism and Freemasonry, conspiracy theorist and the inventor of the boardgame Scruples"

He also runs a website called savethemales.com, and bragged about getting a mail-order bride from somewhere, the Philippines I think, because 'women there were brought up to treat men properly." :barf:
 
I would like to emphasize the fact that researchers on this forum have pursued the trails of the so-called Illuminati, Masons, Cabalists, Jews, Vatican, Satanists, and many other conspiracy theories popular for a very long time. Once you begin peeling away layer after layer after layer, going back in time, and across the globe in scope, you find that there is only one single element that stands out throughout time and space: psychopathy.

We have written about this topic extensively both in articles on our websites, and here on this forum. Additionally, it has been covered in our books. So arguing those issues here is kind of a waste of our time and energy. That's his claim, we are convinced it is only a small part of the story. But, that, taken with many other things he has written, as well as some other info that we have respecting Makow, pretty much make the case for herondancer's "shorthand" response that would be understood immediately by those familiar with the players and the issues.
 
Going through my files, I found some interesting things such as:

_http://www.henrymakow.com/jeff_renses_ninth_ex-wife_spe.html

Next to a photo of Jeff Rense he writes:

A psychopath will ALWAYS let you down - what you see is an illusion!!!!

And then states:

(Editor's Note: We cannot separate a man's personal and public behavior. We cannot rely on a psychopath and congenital liar for our information and views.)

Apparently there's a whole series of articles about Rense and his ex-wives on Makow's website.
_http://www.henrymakow.com/i_know_jeff_rense_as_a_predato.html

Henry notes:

(Editor's Note: If this article were about Henry Kissinger or Milt Romney, "Patriots" would be doing high-fives and sending congratulations. Because it is about Jeff Rense, many hypocrites will see it as a betrayal. They prefer a comfortable lie to disconcerting truth.

Friends, Jeff Rense has betrayed our trust. Psychopaths know how to win trust but invariably betray it. Suezan, his third wife, also found him "charming" as did six other ex-wives, many more fiances, listeners and former collaborators.

Truthers must face the truth. Far from championing truth and goodness, Jeff Rense is a fraud. Together with Megan's revelations, this article confirms a life-long pattern of pathological deceit and exploitation that has not ended.)

I find it fascinating that he uses the psychopathology terminology and then just doesn't get it about this pathology, that it is at the root of any and all ponerogenic associations by whatever name they cover themselves with.

See also: _http://www.henrymakow.com/the_jeff_rense_collection_arti.html

where Henry notes:

(This is a reply from a reader who wanted us to "please stop fighting!" I apologize but a psychopath cannot be exposed without "getting personal." )

Many people don't have the patience or wit to appreciate the important issue at stake here.

Jeff Rense has enormous influence in the "truth movement" but is a psychopath. I do not consider psychopath to be an acceptable norm.

Jeff is a textbook case of Narcissist Personality Disorder. See Jeff Rense is "The Bachelor"

Seems we can reveal anything about Illuminati psychopaths. But expose our own, and people act like little children whose parents are divorcing. They want us to "stop fighting." The Illuminati have nothing to fear from this day nursery.

If this were a "personal vendetta," or simply a difference in principle, I wouldn't bother. Give me a little credit. My work is revealing useful truth about important people and issues. I won't always be right but my record has been pretty good.

Thanks to the many other readers who do appreciate what is at stake.

I would say that a schizoid with misogynistic issues cannot be exposed without getting personal.

But do notice this all important excerpt from description of the schizoid:

Carriers of this anomaly are hypersensitive and distrustful, while, at the same time, pay little attention to the feelings of others. ... Their poor sense of psychological situation and reality leads them to superimpose erroneous, pejorative interpretations upon other people’s intentions.

They easily become involved in activities which are ostensibly moral, but which actually inflict damage upon themselves and others. Their impoverished psychological worldview makes them typically pessimistic regarding human nature. We frequently find expressions of their characteristic attitudes in their statements and writings: “Human nature is so bad that order in human society can only be maintained by a strong power created by highly qualified individuals in the name of some higher idea.” Let us call this typical expression the “schizoid declaration”.

... such people ... easily turn into tools of intrigue in the hands of clever and unscrupulous individuals, ...

Their tendency to see human reality in the doctrinaire and simplistic manner they consider “proper” – i.e. “black or white” - transforms their frequently good intentions into bad results. ...

{Schizoidal psychopaths as} doctrinaire people believe they have found a simple solution to fix the world. ...

... They are psychological loners who then begin to feel better in some human organization, wherein they become zealots for some ideology, religious bigots, materialists, or adherents of an ideology with satanic features. ...

The above are the key elements that one can distill out of Makow's writings and doings. That is to say, it appears that he means well, really believes that his view of the world is correct and beneficial for all, and his hyper-vigilance and activity are the things he does to make himself feel better.
 
jonspock said:
I'm not going to defend Henry, but it is sad to see another thread devolve into "the author's character is flawed", therefore let's dismiss any of the points he makes. I didn't read Henry's article, but i thought here at least I might find some reasons why what he wrote was incorrect rather than a character attack. Recently was on thread about Santos Bonacci which devolved to the same level. Cant we be better than this?

You don't have to read Makow's article, since it isn't his. He posted a review of Political Ponerology on his site that appears on ponerology.com. Makow's only comment on Ponerology is that posted above by AI

Makow said:
I'm posting this review even though I disagree with the premise that our political leaders are psychopaths, and the way to save the world is to diagnose and prevent psychopaths from holding power.
Author Andrew Lobaczewski completely overlooks the obvious, that our "leaders" belong to a satanic cult, the Illuminati (Cabalist Judaism/ Freemasonry) and are dedicated to enslaving and destroying humanity.

To define a psychopath as someone born without a conscience is absurd in a society dedicated to eradicating the source of conscience, the knowledge of God.

Since that is his only rebuttal to the thesis put forward in Political Ponerology, can't you see the flaws in it yourself?

For example, do you think it makes sense that he claims that it is "absurd to define a psychopath as someone born without a conscience because our society is dedicated to eradicating the source of conscience"?

Is it not logical and plausible that people born without a conscience and in positions of power and influence would eventually strip the conscience from the society over which they rule?

It seems that Makow's brief beef with PP has no meat, and makes no sense, and I suspect he hasn't even read the book (he doesn't claim to have done so). His main problem appears to be with the fact that PP does not blame everything on the "illuminati", a belief in which Makow is seriously invested, and he therefore dismisses PP. Pretty obtuse if you ask me.
 
I find it interesting that Makow did post the PP description along with his 'rebuttal', and he did it in reaction to Hans's comment (emphasis mine):

Hans said:
I read your 3 books again and again. Always finding other aspects of the real history I did not know. Alongside your books I also read Political Ponerology by Andrew Lobaczewski. a necessary explanation of your books and your article "An Invisible Cancer Gnaws at Society". It is the only sufficient explanation and way to end the hopelessness expressed in your article. As I see it we have to dive deep into the psychopathology and determine the people by name in this terminology. DSM-V is quite insufficient (I think is written by psychopaths) and we have to promote the book "Political Ponerlogy" on all universities as a duty. Without thorough knowledge of this book, no university diploma [should be giving] in psychology, or psychiatry.

With this knowledge one can determine the proven connection between psychopathy and membership of freemasonry, rosicrucianism, and other secret societies where JFK talked about in his famous speech. With Lobaczewski's knowledge, the law has to be be changed to prevent psychopaths in any responsible position. If a person has all the criteria of a failing conscience he or she has to be removed from his position. There is already a lot of knowledge about psychopaths in interpersonal relationships in society, so why not make a public test to sift out and determine these characters in the whole society? Schizophrenics are also not allowed to have a public function so why allow psychopaths?

IMO, whether he is paid for what he writes or he isn't is one thing, but aside from that and on top of his own agenda, it looks like an ego thing; sort of: "How dare you, or anyone would, suggest that my writing isn't complete and self-explanatory as it is." Which is telling by itself if that's the case.
 
Possibility of Being said:
IMO, whether he is paid for what he writes or he isn't is one thing, but aside from that and on top of his own agenda, it looks like an ego thing; sort of: "How dare you, or anyone would, suggest that my writing isn't complete and self-explanatory as it is." Which is telling by itself if that's the case.

Goes back to the schizoidal description:

They tend to assume extreme positions, and are eager to retaliate for minor offenses.

He definitely ticks all the boxes.
 
I understand it was myself and Jonspock who had a similar discussion with regards to Santos Bonacci here: https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,34051.msg475941.html#msg475941

Laura: "The critically-corrective approach is taken by people whose feel for psychological reality is normal and they tend to incorporate the more valuable elements of the work. They then trivialize the obvious errors"

And in my observations, as noted previously, Jonspock has a tendency to overlook the 'errors' whilst not taking the time to investigate himself, and when provided with references and opinion disregards them with observations like "you give too much credit to tptb"

"You seem to know a lot more about Santos than me, but regardless I think any media coverage can help open at least some people's minds to alternative views that Santos is talking about. I agree though a bad Poster boy may have the opposite effect."
https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,34051.msg475670.html#msg475670

Whether it is wishful thinking on Jonspock part, ie. a desire for change, i don't know; but i would say the confidence of the responses do not reflect the effort of investigation.

What i think is important with regards to the subtle 'clues' in character/history of, and the emphasis on how valuable they can be is, where a speaker is literally regurgitating 'accepted alternative history' you may have little to work from. If they are cointelpro, the material will contain truths, and so it is these revealing character/machine traits - like an obvious desire for attention - when contrasted with 'a love for truth' can be some of the only clues you have. Especially in the beginning.
Often enough i have listened to hours of a presenter, only to find the bait and switch at the end! And all those 'errors' begin to add up and make sense

So i have found the exchanges confusing, on the one hand i am being queried for further information, and then on the other, i find it ignored. When moments ago, Jonspock felt Santos was worthwhile.

Jonspock: "So I don't know or care if Santos is a dupe or not."

Perhaps i'm missing something..

Now with regards to Makow; i came to similar conclusions, even if some of his data is on point, his lens is bent... ;D
 
Thanks for the replies and to Laura for the long post. Before continuing on the subject, I'd like to say thanks to Laura for these forums. I've learned quite a bit from them over the years although my reading is some sporadic (thus not being aware of various opinions held on Makow or others).
In my informational journey, I also did learn some stuff from Henry Makow's site and others such as Santos Bonacci. I don't know if they are dupes or agents, but as long as I felt I got something positive from them, I would tend to appreciate that, even if I didn't respect their other views.
I understand why people want to look at the overall picture and include the personalities involved. It's only natural. However, I think it is great to outline logical arguments such as Laura did rather than the shorthand summaries. Why? Because I think some people who may be on the fence about some personalities will probably have a knee jerk reaction and be less likely to think well of this site. Personally I look forward to replies like Laura's and tend to groan at the other kind which are obviously a lot less effort to write.
Back to the subject. I have read PP several years ago. Mostly thanks to Laura's work and this site. I do view it as a very important work and of big impact.
Finally, I would like to bring up though one thing from the 'review'. He states that PP says, "the way to save the world is to diagnose and prevent psychopaths from holding power". I don't remember the book that well (or if that is what it said exactly), but while it is important to do that, I don't think it will 'save the world'. I think the non-psychopaths have some responsibility in allowing the psychopaths to take control. Even if all the psychopaths died overnight, we'd still have the culture in place that made way for the psychopaths. To say we are all just victims of the psychopaths is a little too simplistic, obviously we are getting something out of the deal, right? Isn't it just as important to deal with that? I don't think that this was HM's bent on this but i do think it is a valid point.
 
jonspock said:
I understand why people want to look at the overall picture and include the personalities involved. It's only natural. However, I think it is great to outline logical arguments such as Laura did rather than the shorthand summaries. Why? Because I think some people who may be on the fence about some personalities will probably have a knee jerk reaction and be less likely to think well of this site. Personally I look forward to replies like Laura's and tend to groan at the other kind which are obviously a lot less effort to write.

I agree that more thoughtful replies are called for and not just knee-jerking. But all of us working in this field of wading through the muck and trying to find the gems do have off days! Some days, you just have all you can take of the monstrous stupidity and selfishness. But that's not an excuse. After all, we do emphasize that a person who is working on themselves should act in an externally considerate way. Sometimes that takes a lot of time and energy.

Sometimes mods and admins and editors on SOTT get to the point where they say "what's the use? what's the point?" because no matter how hard we work keeping up with what is going on globally and trying to help people sort their stuff out, and researching for answers to people's questions, writing posts, etc etc etc, the downward spiral of global events just seems to get faster and more horrifying in all its aspects.

The only answer I can give is: "yes, we have to keep saying it, we have to keep doing it, because today might be the day that one person is looking for an answer and YOU can give it to them and catalyze a change in their life. Furthermore, the Universe is seeking ways and means to actualize the energy of truth in our world; if we give up, we kill that possibility in ourselves."

We can't be doing what we do because we expect it to change the world. As I said in one of my video talks, when the majority of human beings are engaged in destroying society and our civilization by choice, how can those few who want a different world think they have the right - or the means - to change the trajectory? We have neither the right nor the means to change the world of choice for the majority; we can only continue to manifest that world WE choose, as much as possible, in our own lives and behavior.
 
Sorry my initial reply wasn't as thorough as it could have been jonspock vis-a-vis ad hominem versus factoring in character.
 
OK, here goes.... (takes a deep breath, has been deliberating this post for a few days....)


I'd like to defend the mods and Laura here. The mods don't take their positions lightly, and I'm sure they were not given those positions lightly either. That they take this responsibility very seriously is shown in their posts. I do not see evidence of ad hominem attacks. What I do see is feeding and manipulation (albeit on a very subtle level). The red flags for me are words being bandied about like 'devolve', 'ad hominem', 'character attack', 'knee jerks', 'some people are less likely to think well of this site...', and emotionally charged rhetorical questions like 'Can't we be better than this?'.
[quote author=jonspock]
I'm not going to defend Henry, but it is sad to see another thread devolve into "the author's character is flawed", therefore let's dismiss any of the points he makes. I didn't read Henry's article, but i thought here at least I might find some reasons why what he wrote was incorrect rather than a character attack. Recently was on thread about Santos Bonacci which devolved to the same level. Cant we be better than this?
[/quote]


Then there's the manipulation against the shorter replies in this thread, with a condescending
[quote author=jonspock]
'I understand why people want to look at the overall picture and include the personalities involved. It's only natural. However, I think it is great to outline logical arguments such as Laura did rather than the shorthand summaries. Why? Because I think some people who may be on the fence about some personalities will probably have a knee jerk reaction and be less likely to think well of this site. Personally I look forward to replies like Laura's and tend to groan at the other kind which are obviously a lot less effort to write.
[/quote]The last comment in bold is completely ironic given that jonspock has posted 40 times in 4 years.


I also thought this comment strange
[quote author=jonspock]
In my informational journey, I also did learn some stuff from Henry Makow's site and others such as Santos Bonacci. I don't know if they are dupes or agents, but as long as I felt I got something positive from them, I would tend to appreciate that, even if I didn't respect their other views.
[/quote]
Well it would make sense to figure out first if the source of your information is or isn't a dupe. And what exactly is meant by positive information? Here we are after Truth (not just positive information), and as objectively as possible, which means networking with each other in order to tease out the truth. The point is learning to see the unseen. It is assumed that if you are drawn here, it is to learn, network and research things yourself, and not to simply take someone else's word for it (not even the C's, without C-ing for yourself!). Flagging 'off' replies was discussed in the Lisa G thread here, and from what I've read, it's guarding against the subtle covert forms of manipulation that we need to watch for. The more subtle, the more insidious and draining (look at the energy expended in defense in the posts above).

Perhaps I'm seeing things that aren't there, and if that is the case, I'm sure y'all will let me know.
 
Arwenn said:
OK, here goes.... (takes a deep breath, has been deliberating this post for a few days....)


I'd like to defend the mods and Laura here. The mods don't take their positions lightly, and I'm sure they were not given those positions lightly either. That they take this responsibility very seriously is shown in their posts. I do not see evidence of ad hominem attacks. What I do see is feeding and manipulation (albeit on a very subtle level). The red flags for me are words being bandied about like 'devolve', 'ad hominem', 'character attack', 'knee jerks', 'some people are less likely to think well of this site...', and emotionally charged rhetorical questions like 'Can't we be better than this?'.
Then there's the manipulation against the shorter replies in this thread, with a condescending
jonspock] 'I understand why people want to look at the overall picture and include the personalities involved. [b]It's only natural[/b]. However said:
I also thought this comment strange
[quote author=jonspock]
In my informational journey, I also did learn some stuff from Henry Makow's site and others such as Santos Bonacci. I don't know if they are dupes or agents, but as long as I felt I got something positive from them, I would tend to appreciate that, even if I didn't respect their other views.
Well it would make sense to figure out first if the source of your information is or isn't a dupe. And what exactly is meant by positive information? Here we are after Truth (not just positive information), and as objectively as possible, which means networking with each other in order to tease out the truth. The point is learning to see the unseen. It is assumed that if you are drawn here, it is to learn, network and research things yourself, and not to simply take someone else's word for it (not even the C's, without C-ing for yourself!). Flagging 'off' replies was discussed in the Lisa G thread here, and from what I've read, it's guarding against the subtle covert forms of manipulation that we need to watch for. The more subtle, the more insidious and draining (look at the energy expended in defense in the posts above).

Perhaps I'm seeing things that aren't there, and if that is the case, I'm sure y'all will let me know.
I only have so much energy and time to look into things. I consider trying to determine if someone is a dupe to be a rabbit hole. You get mostly hearsay and speculation and usually can not verify a lot of what your read. You then also need to investigate the sources and if they are reliable, etc. I have done some of that research for some people but not for every source I read. Keep in mind that except for Laura most of the other posters here are anonymous and thus it is almost impossible to tell if they are dupes or not. It seems slightly hypocritical for anonymous posters to be discussing how the validity of what various public figures say should be weighed by their personality when we have no way for take their personality into account to weigh what they are saying.
OK, 'positive' information is not a good or clear term. I should have said 'truthful'. I guess I meant positive in the sense that something I read may have been inspiring
Thanks for taking the time to read this
 
Arwenn said:
OK, here goes.... (takes a deep breath, has been deliberating this post for a few days....)

<snip>

Perhaps I'm seeing things that aren't there, and if that is the case, I'm sure y'all will let me know.

Thanks for your confidence in our good faith efforts, Arwenn, but I do think that Jonspock was sincerely nonplussed. Yes, I saw the critical correction and paramoralistic things in his remarks, but I also remembered the days when I would have felt/thought the same. And, as I've written a few posts back, we all ought to remember that. Plus, he was entirely correct in pointing out how the casual guest reader might see the matter. It took me years to untangle myself from the "egotism of the natural world view" and habits of "critical correction". Yeah, maybe I'm critically correcting even now a bit, but I do like to give the benefit of the doubt.
 
Laura said:
Arwenn said:
OK, here goes.... (takes a deep breath, has been deliberating this post for a few days....)

<snip>

Perhaps I'm seeing things that aren't there, and if that is the case, I'm sure y'all will let me know.

Thanks for your confidence in our good faith efforts, Arwenn, but I do think that Jonspock was sincerely nonplussed. Yes, I saw the critical correction and paramoralistic things in his remarks, but I also remembered the days when I would have felt/thought the same. And, as I've written a few posts back, we all ought to remember that. Plus, he was entirely correct in pointing out how the casual guest reader might see the matter. It took me years to untangle myself from the "egotism of the natural world view" and habits of "critical correction". Yeah, maybe I'm critically correcting even now a bit, but I do like to give the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks for that Laura. And Arwenn, I hope you can get to the point where you don't need to take a deep breath before responding. I'm inspired now to shut up and re-read Ponerology.
 
jonspock said:
<snip>
...Did it occur to you that I just didn't have a lot to say (my other contributions were mostly in the economic/financial areas where i felt I knew something that other were not saying)? Or that this is not the friendliest place for people to contribute? I understand the need for rules and moderators but some postings by moderator have come across as very heavy handed to me and it can feel a bit over-policed to me. That is why I've avoided posting in the past. I'm sure some people will probably attack these comments too. I am not saying that that is the way it is but it is how I perceive it and although it may not be the majority view, I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that. For example, I avoided posting "about myself" in the newbie area before commenting on threads because it is not something I'm typically comfortable with. However, people kept coming after me until I did. At that point I could have said anything just to get them off my back, which sort of defeats the purpose.
...
I only have so much energy and time to look into things. I consider trying to determine if someone is a dupe to be a rabbit hole. You get mostly hearsay and speculation and usually can not verify a lot of what your read. You then also need to investigate the sources and if they are reliable, etc.

Hey jonspock, thank you for your response. Your comment above is exactly why networking is so important-one person on their own can only do so much. And if you can get past the hesitation to post, it certainly helps to refine the thought processes, as I'm finding out (I was a boardlurker until I summoned up the courage). I hope that some of the points that were made, (which weren't intended to be offensive; the paramoralisms that Laura mentions) helps you in your own thought processes.

jonspock said:
OK, 'positive' information is not a good or clear term. I should have said 'truthful'. I guess I meant positive in the sense that something I read may have been inspiring
Thanks for taking the time to read this

jonspock said:
And Arwenn, I hope you can get to the point where you don't need to take a deep breath before responding. I'm inspired now to shut up and re-read Ponerology.

Posting hurriedly can give a totally different meaning to the tone and content of a post. On the more important topics I do like to clarify my thoughts before I post (so I think I'll be holding my breath before few more times, before I get the hang of it) ;D
 
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