Hidden Intracellular/Functional Vitamin B12 Deficiency with normal or high blood markers

[Keyhole]

Don't sublingual lozenges absorb through skin too? Is there a difference between absorption through the skin in the mouth and elsewhere? They're definitely much cheaper than the B12 oils.



If I take B12 I opt for sublingual methylcobalamin and it seems to do the job pretty well. It didn't solve all of my problems but when I started taking it around 6-7 years ago it did help with persistent fatigue to a small but noticeable extent. Adenosyl gave me pretty bad depression so I guess it may not be optimal for everyone. The hydroxy version is said to help with cognitive abilities but I didn't notice much difference despite taking it for 2 months until the supply ran out.

For some, sublingual might help. The hydroxy version is only going to work if you are able to actually convert it in the cells. For a normal person, hydroxy will do fine. However, for people who have the described issue, it is a waste of time. Adenosyl and Methyl need to be used.

However, most of the people with CFS have already gone down the "high dose" sublingual and do not improve. I see it all the time. The problem seems to be related to an inability to absorb megadoses via the sublingual route.

Here's what Greg has to say about that:

Restoration of brain function is very slow presumably because of the time required to repair the damaged myelin basic protein and the damaged myelin sheath which surrounds the nerves. It has been found that it is almost impossible to achieve sufficient levels of adenosyl and methyl cobalamin in the serum for replenishment of vitamin B12 levels in serum, tissue and the central nervous system using high dose sub-lingual, or high dose oral tablets.

High dose supplementation has been greatly aided by topical administration of a special oil formulation containing Ado and MeCbl. Supplementation by injection of CN-Cbl or OHCbl has only been shown to be marginally effective. It is believed that the reason that supplementation with CN-Cbl or OHCbl is ineffective is because the high oxidizing environment within the cells of chronically B12 deficient individuals (such as in CFS/ME) prevents conversion of OHCbl and particularly CNCbl, to Ado or Me CBl

For this reason it seems to be necessary to administer the two active forms of vitamin B12, namely adenosyl and methylcobalamin, and in addition vitamin B2 with Iodine, Selenium and Molybdenum, all of which are required to activate vitamin B2..

Rather pricey.

Well, it works out to approximately $1 per day, so $30 dollars per month on one dose per day. If it means the difference between being bed-ridden, and being able to function, then I would say it is worth it.

With regard to price, I have someone on $200 worth of thiamine per month (about 21 capsules per day). If she has any less, then she cant get out of bed. She is more than willing to spend that amount on treatment, so it seems to be context dependent.

 

[Ant22]

For some, sublingual might help.

But what's the difference between sublingual and transdermal absorption? The substance is the same and both ways of absorption are actually through skin. I was wondering if maybe there are other ingredients in those oils that increase absorption but my non-expert eye hasn't found anything like that. From their website:

The vitamin B12 oils are composed of pharmaceutical grade, GMP produced oils and surfactants that make up the Transdermoil™ oil, plus pyrogen-free heat sterilized carbon filtered water, and injection-grade vitamin B12 derivatives.

 

[RedFox]

For what it's worth, there was a sublingual B12 protocol worked out on a CFS/MS forum, which I posted here: MTHFR mutations
It may be adequate at raising B12 levels?

 

[Keyhole]

But what's the difference between sublingual and transdermal absorption? The substance is the same and both ways of absorption are actually through skin. I was wondering if maybe there are other ingredients in those oils that increase absorption but my non-expert eye hasn't found anything like that. From their website:

If you look at the publications listed on his ResearchGate account, he has written papers on specific emulsion technology which supposedly enhances absorption via the topical route.

One is on the delivery of proteins in an specific emulsion:

Water-in-oil microemulsions for effective transdermal delivery of proteins
Gregory Russell-Jones &Roy Himes
Introduction: A water-in-oil microemulsion is a thermodynamically stable emulsion that has the capacity to ‘hide’ water-soluble molecules within a continuous oil phase. The very small size of the water droplets within the microemulsion means that these types of formulation can be applied topically to the skin, with the result that peptides and proteins can be delivered effectively into the dermal layer.

Areas covered: This review discusses the general problems of peptide and protein delivery following topical application, and compares the possible routes of peptide and protein clearance and distribution within the body following topical administration. Several examples of successful peptide and protein delivery using microemulsions are discussed, in addition to the possible alterations in biological profiles following administration via this route.

Expert opinion: Water-in-oil microemulsions present themselves as an effective means of topical delivery of peptides and proteins of all sizes, and in high doses. These formulations are a cheap, stable, pain-free means of delivery of peptides and proteins to the skin. An exciting area of potential development is the area of weight control management. The results using insulin, IGF-I and GHRP-6 given topically are particularly intriguing. Whether these results can be replicated in humans and whether the use of these drugs for potential treatment of obesity will be commercially viable will be particularly interesting.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1517/17425247.2011.559458?journalCode=iedd20

Although B12 is not technically a protein, I think they use a similar technology for delivery. It is not the same as sublingual, because sublingual lozenges are not lipid-bound. The fact that the B12 is bound with lipids is said to increase bioavailability, but I am not certain.

 

[RedFox]

Another mechanism to enhance cellular levels of B12 appears to be lithium, if you've not run accross it before: Low dose Lithium for better mental health

 

[Amor]

Could I basically be eating beef liver a couple times a week, supplementing some selenum with iodine and over long time balance out any b12 deficiencies? because from simple google search I found that everything needed for b12 absorption can be basically found in beef liver. Ofcourse as far as I understand in the clinical case where someone needs a therapeutical dose that might not work as efficiently but if the case is someone with a minor deficiency?

 

[SlavaOn]

If you leave in a country with high consumption of Vitamin A (i.e. any Western country), consuming beef liver will be very dangerous according to: Search Results for “fires of hell” – Ideas, Concepts, and Observations

I spent a lot of time on Grant's book while translating it to Russian language. If someone is interested in this translation, I can send you a copy. I was unable to have it published in Russia and when its 30+ chapters were posted on zen.yandex.ru it was hidden from their search engine...

This topic was discussed earlier: https://cassiopaea.org/forum/threads/vitamin-a-aka-retinol-free-diet.47762/page-2#post-821829

 

[Uperios]

Vitamin B12 Is Key for Optimal Tissue Regeneration​

Story at a glance:

• Vitamin B12 (cobalamin) is required for healthy nerve function and the synthesis of red blood cells and DNA. B vitamins are also important for healthy immune function, which is your first line of defense against all diseases
• According to recent research, vitamin B12 is a key player in cellular regeneration, as it’s the limiting factor for methylation. DNA in cells that need to be repaired require high levels of methylation, hence high amounts of B12 are required to regenerate damaged tissues
• Vitamin B12, applied topically, has also been shown to be helpful in the treatment of radiodermatitis, i.e., skin damaged by radiotherapy used in cancer treatment
• A deficiency in B12 increases inflammation and oxidative stress by raising homocysteine. B12 deficiency is also associated with many other physical, neurological and psychological symptoms, including migraines, certain respiratory disorders, depression, memory loss and nonalcoholic steatohepatitis (NASH)
• Vitamin B12 is found almost exclusively in animal foods such as beef and beef liver, lamb, snapper, venison, salmon, shrimp, scallops, poultry, eggs and dairy products. If you rarely eat these foods, consider using nutritional yeast, which is high in B12. Sublingual fine mist spray or vitamin B12 injections are also effective