High Dose Melatonin Therapy

[987baz]

I noticed something, at least in Belgium and The Netherlands; melatonin above 299 mcg is being gradually withdrawn from the market, melatonin is said to be dangerous in high doses (we are familiar with this rhetoric), I don't know if this is happening in other parts of Europe, but the fact is that I have to order melatonin from Spain.

We can't get pharma grade synthetic melatonin in Aus, we can only get the stuff which is apparently made from the pineal glands of animals, so we have to order it from overseas.. i buy it from iherb fwiw link is the one I use .. i take 3 as that's what the kinesiologist tested andf I have to say, according to my sleep tracker I'm a sleep ninja now (I got a 98bout of 100 sleep score twice in the last month or so althought he last few days I've had lower scores than usual for some reason, I think there's a bit of processing going on

 

[Deliverance]

I´d be grateful for a quality melatonin recommendation within Europe.

I find this melatonin at Life Extension Europe

Science-based supplements & vitamins | Life Extension Europe

500+ supplements with vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, fish oil, omegas, amino acids, herbs, probiotics, CoQ10, NAD+ & more.

www.lifeextensioneurope.fr

 

[Breo]

Thank you @Konstantin and @Deliverance for this recommendation. There is also a 1mg version and that´s what´s the limit I am allowed to import. I will order and report back! Thanks also to all of you who posted valuable links. I looked at each of them

 

[katarinak]

Hi, I found this thread here yesterday about melatonin. I would be very grateful if you could help me answer a few questions. I had a very difficult 1.5 years where in 1 month I had maybe 5 nights with almost normal sleep, after a year I was so exhausted that my head was buzzing almost all day and sometimes I was not able to get out of bed at all and could barely answer basic questions. After the covid period, I completely lost faith in our health care system and therefore tried to help myself somehow without medication.

I'm currently sleeping well for a few months, but I have occasional weaker nights where I either stay asleep for a long time or wake up in the middle of the night and can't fall back asleep.

Thank you very much in advance for all the answers and I apologize if I ask some trivial questions that are clear to others. I haven't had time to read the whole thread yet

1. Do you use melatonin for falling asleep or does it also work for waking up at night?

2. How do I know if it is synthetic melatonin or naturally derived? Is there any difference between them?

3.How many mg is it good to start taking?

4. Have you also tried breathing exercises for slow and deep breathing?

5. Have you tried anything else, such as finding the cause of your insomnia and then eliminating it?

 

[Konstantin]

I'm sorry to hear about your struggles with insomnia; it can be truly exhausting. Let me share some thoughts based on my perspective and experience.

What has happened in the last 1.5 years? Did you have this issue before? If not, try to identify any significant changes in your life during this time that might be contributing to the problem.

If your mind becomes overly active when you try to sleep, with all kinds of thoughts flooding in—almost like a brainstorming session—it might be worth considering GABA as a potential solution. In cases like this, GABA could be more effective than melatonin.

1. Do you use melatonin for falling asleep or does it also work for waking up at night?

I think it works for falling asleep.

2. How do I know if it is synthetic melatonin or naturally derived? Is there any difference between them?

You can find that information on the producer's bottle label. I don't know if there is any difference; I haven't tested it.

3.How many mg is it good to start taking?

I am perfectly fine with 3mg. If you are using for the first time, start with 1mg so your body can adjust to it. Otherwise at the beginning it can have the opposite effect and cause you to be even more alert and cant fall asleep. It is just for a few days. So go slow and see what works best for you.

Have you also tried breathing exercises for slow and deep breathing?

Sure. Have you tried Eiriu Eolas?

 

[nicklebleu]

Hi katarinak - here a few thoughts on your questions. Most of these have been addressed in the thread, so just read through it and you should get a good idea about melatonin.

1. Do you use melatonin for falling asleep or does it also work for waking up at night?

It is used mainly as a sleep inducer - however the dose may provide help with sleeping through as well, if you bump it up, but maybe at the expense of feeling groggy in the morning.

3.How many mg is it good to start taking?

Generally a good starting dose is 1-3mg, then see what happens, and dial it up or down depending on the effects. Not much effect - bump it up. Good effect, but feeling drowsy in the morning - dial it down. Generally, it is very individual, and you need to apply ‘trial and error’ to work out a dose that suits you.

4. Have you also tried breathing exercises for slow and deep breathing?

As Konstantin has mentioned, a breathing program like EE can do wonders, although it is generally not a quick fix. Also mediation can help, too.

5. Have you tried anything else, such as finding the cause of your insomnia and then eliminating it?

There are multiple factors that may influence your sleep pattern, so it is a good idea to try to influence those, too. Af ew ideas from the top of my head:
- Eliminating blue spectrum light early in the evening (electronic devices, LED lights etc), and/or wearing blue blocking glasses. Eliminating electronic devices may also calm you down regardless of blue light blocking, and is generally a good thing to do (at least 2 hours before bedtime)
- Diet may also play a role, like limiting food after a certain time, eating early evening in general, maybe avoiding high-carb loads in the evening etc.
- Some people have had success with certain supplements like Ashwaganda, GABA and others - I personally have no experience with these, as my sleep is generally good, but others may chime in with their experience.

In summary, there is no ‘one-size-fits-all’ approach, and you will need to experiment with different things, which takes patience and time, but it is definitely possible to vastly improve your sleep pattern over time.

Hope that helps!

 

[katarinak]

What has happened in the last 1.5 years? Did you have this issue before? If not, try to identify any significant changes in your life during this time that might be contributing to the problem.

I didn't have this issue before, I used to sleep like a baby Therefore it was something unusual in my life. I think I managed to identify the cause and eliminate it, now I would say that I am sleeping about 85% compared to my normal sleep.

If your mind becomes overly active when you try to sleep, with all kinds of thoughts flooding in—almost like a brainstorming session—it might be worth considering GABA as a potential solution. In cases like this, GABA could be more effective than melatonin.

Yes, it's exactly as you write. Thank you very much for the tip, I will go read more about gamma-aminobutyric acid. Thank you very much.

Sure. Have you tried Eiriu Eolas?

I watched Laura's video, it's great. I have practiced yoga and also pranayama breathing exercises for many years in the past. And also pranayama with breath holds, which are a powerful purification technique and which just reminded me of EE breathing. I had already started EE breathing, a few days ago. It was this EE breathing that made me think how to calm the mind, slow down the breathing and thus relax the body and in this way improve sleep in a natural way.

I am perfectly fine with 3mg. If you are using for the first time, start with 1mg so your body can adjust to it. Otherwise at the beginning it can have the opposite effect and cause you to be even more alert and cant fall asleep. It is just for a few days. So go slow and see what works best for you.

yes, thank you very much Konstantin.

 

[katarinak]

There are multiple factors that may influence your sleep pattern, so it is a good idea to try to influence those, too. Af ew ideas from the top of my head:
- Eliminating blue spectrum light early in the evening (electronic devices, LED lights etc), and/or wearing blue blocking glasses. Eliminating electronic devices may also calm you down regardless of blue light blocking, and is generally a good thing to do (at least 2 hours before bedtime)
- Diet may also play a role, like limiting food after a certain time, eating early evening in general, maybe avoiding high-carb loads in the evening etc.
- Some people have had success with certain supplements like Ashwaganda, GABA and others - I personally have no experience with these, as my sleep is generally good, but others may chime in with their experience.

In summary, there is no ‘one-size-fits-all’ approach, and you will need to experiment with different things, which takes patience and time, but it is definitely possible to vastly improve your sleep pattern over time.

Thank you very much for all the information and advice, I'm just about to experiment in this direction to understand the context.

 

[iamthatis]

Thank you very much for all the information and advice, I'm just about to experiment in this direction to understand the context.

I was having insomnia a few years ago, and I was taken to a sleep clinic. I was wired up with a lot of sensors, etc., and had a night of sleep in the clinic. They were monitoring my sleep state for the night, and were able to give advice based on what was causing the insomnia. For me it was basically too much thinking, and they suggested using a regular mantra whenever I woke up in the middle of the night. The rule was 'no thinking in bed allowed'. Only mantra, sensing the body, and breathing.

You may consider seeing a doctor and asking about this sort of test.

The other thing I do now as a sleep aid is use my infrared sauna blanket. I lay on top of it, and it usually sends me off into dreamland quite nicely.

About melatonin, for some people the total amount in the system is used up quickly, and when it depletes, the body takes this as a signal to wake up, so they wake up in the middle of the night. That happened for me. So 'sustained release' melatonin can be a worthwhile experiment as well.

The other thing that can help with sleep - physical exercise during the day. Not light physical exercise like walking or stretching, but an actual workout that gets the heart pumping.

 

[katarinak]

I was having insomnia a few years ago, and I was taken to a sleep clinic. I was wired up with a lot of sensors, etc., and had a night of sleep in the clinic. They were monitoring my sleep state for the night, and were able to give advice based on what was causing the insomnia. For me it was basically too much thinking, and they suggested using a regular mantra whenever I woke up in the middle of the night. The rule was 'no thinking in bed allowed'. Only mantra, sensing the body, and breathing.

You may consider seeing a doctor and asking about this sort of test.

The other thing I do now as a sleep aid is use my infrared sauna blanket. I lay on top of it, and it usually sends me off into dreamland quite nicely.

About melatonin, for some people the total amount in the system is used up quickly, and when it depletes, the body takes this as a signal to wake up, so they wake up in the middle of the night. That happened for me. So 'sustained release' melatonin can be a worthwhile experiment as well.

The other thing that can help with sleep - physical exercise during the day. Not light physical exercise like walking or stretching, but an actual workout that gets the heart pumping.

Thank you for sharing your experience, I appreciate it, I think one can more easily find inspiration and ideas from the experiences of others. Physical exercise during the day I will definitely try

I believe that our body is the outer image of our inner self. I got asthma when I was around 30. After four years of treatment, when I still wasn't compensated, I asked my doctor that I would like to be cured. The answer was that if I didn't take corticosteroids (large doses) I would be dead in 5-6 years. I think that was one of my last visits to any doctor. I came home crying, slept it off and then changed job (due to high stress), started doing yoga and breathing exercises and changed my diet to a healthier way of life. The asthma went away and hasn't come back.

I feel the same way now when sleeping issues have appeared. It started in 2022 and I found that I was living in such a way that even when I saw a pile of manure in front of me, I looked for the flower on it and focused my attention on it. I basically ignored the bad around me. And the COVID situation I think was the last straw that spilled my cup. I was forced to look at reality as it is in all its truth and accept it within myself as well. I think it did the trick and my sleeping improved from 5% to about 85%. The Cassiopaeans came my way this year and I'm extremely grateful for that because I got a lot of answers to my questions. I don't really understand it myself yet, because in the past I lived quite rationally, but I believe that nothing is a coincidence in our lives and it is possible to find connections in everything.

Now I would especially like to try Laura's EE breathing with breath holds, what it will do and also control not thinking and slow and deep breathing in bed as you write. I'd also like to try the melatonin experiment, what a difference it will make.

 

[Nević Nenad]

Hi, I found this thread here yesterday about melatonin. I would be very grateful if you could help me answer a few questions. I had a very difficult 1.5 years where in 1 month I had maybe 5 nights with almost normal sleep, after a year I was so exhausted that my head was buzzing almost all day and sometimes I was not able to get out of bed at all and could barely answer basic questions. After the covid period, I completely lost faith in our health care system and therefore tried to help myself somehow without medication.

I'm currently sleeping well for a few months, but I have occasional weaker nights where I either stay asleep for a long time or wake up in the middle of the night and can't fall back asleep.

Thank you very much in advance for all the answers and I apologize if I ask some trivial questions that are clear to others. I haven't had time to read the whole thread yet

1. Do you use melatonin for falling asleep or does it also work for waking up at night?

2. How do I know if it is synthetic melatonin or naturally derived? Is there any difference between them?

3.How many mg is it good to start taking?

4. Have you also tried breathing exercises for slow and deep breathing?

5. Have you tried anything else, such as finding the cause of your insomnia and then eliminating it?

For me:

1. Yes.
2. Usually says on the packaging. Of those I tried Now Foods is natural, and Natrol is synthetic. I see the difference, from synthetic, you are going to sleep, and thats it, from natural one there is some more effects like calming. I prefer natural.
3. The smallest amount you get. Its easier to get more if needed.
4. Yes, but still cant fall asleep.
5. No.

 

[katarinak]

2. Usually says on the packaging. Of those I tried Now Foods is natural, and Natrol is synthetic.

You can find that information on the producer's bottle label. I don't know if there is any difference; I haven't tested it.

Firstly thank you very much Nević Nenad for you information

Yes, I would also prefer to try natural. I checked Now Foods melatonin on their website and there is no information about where this melatonin is sourced from, neither on the packaging nor on the page. The fact is that it is a version of melatonin suitable for vegans, from which it can be deduced that it is not derived from animals. Therefore, it looks to me more likely to be synthetically produced melatonin.

I looked at Life Extension melatonin (although there are pictures of cherries) and Melatonin Vitabalans as well, it doesn't say anything what kind of melatonin it is.

I think it might be interesting to know more

 

[katarinak]

I've been trying to figure out what's up with the melatonins. I found a product called Traumhaft Melatonin complex with plant substances from Naturtreu, which contains plant ingredients, vitamins and amino acids in addition to melatonin. I chose it because it looks like a natural product, the only unknown ingredient and where it comes from is melatonin.

I asked them specifically about the melatonin ingredient, whether it is naturally derived melatonin or is it synthetic melatonin. The answer is that it is synthetic melatonin, I send in the attachment the answer they sent me about why they use synthetic melatonin. Let everyone make up his own mind (the English translation from German is via Deepl translator)

In general, it seems to me that unless it is clearly written where the melatonin is obtained from, for example from cherries - Prunus Cerasus, it is most likely synthetically produced melatonin. However, the question still remains whether synthetic melatonin is the same as our natural melatonin in our body, why it is not possible to learn more about synthetic melatonin, how it is produced and from what. This also makes me wonder why each person's melatonin suits differently. We are not the same and synthetic melatonins apparently are not either.

Have a nice day to all

 

[meadow_wind]

However, the question still remains whether synthetic melatonin is the same as our natural melatonin in our body, why it is not possible to learn more about synthetic melatonin, how it is produced and from what.

I haven't done much research on this subject yet, but I was also curious about this question, so I went to ChatGPT to ask and get a quick answer. Note that I have not investigated any further its answer to see if it is incomplete, incoherent, or misleading. When it comes to health topics, I usually investigate further because I don't trust GPT to be accurate, but it's good enough to give hints.

Difference Between Natural and Synthetic Melatonin​

1. Natural Melatonin
   
   • Source: It is derived from the pineal glands of animals, such as cows or pigs.
   • Extraction Process: The glandular material is processed to extract melatonin, purified for human use, and incorporated into supplements.
   • Risks: Natural melatonin poses potential concerns regarding contamination or transmission of diseases from animal tissue. This is why its use has largely been replaced by synthetic melatonin.
2. Synthetic Melatonin
   
   • Source: Produced in laboratories using chemical synthesis. It is created to mimic the molecular structure of natural melatonin.
   • Purity: Synthetic melatonin is highly purified and does not carry the risk of contamination from biological sources.
   • Comparison: Synthetic melatonin is chemically identical to the melatonin naturally produced by the human brain. It binds to the same receptors and functions the same way in regulating sleep-wake cycles.

Synthetic vs. Natural Melatonin​

• Safety: Synthetic melatonin is safer and more consistent in dosage and purity compared to animal-derived melatonin.
• Effectiveness: Both types interact with melatonin receptors in the brain, but synthetic melatonin is more widely used due to its availability and lower risk.
• Similarity to Human Melatonin: The structure and function of synthetic melatonin are virtually identical to the melatonin produced by the pineal gland.

Availability of Natural Melatonin​

• Most melatonin supplements on the market today are synthetic due to safety, ethical concerns, and production scalability.
• Animal-derived melatonin is rare and not widely used, partly because of concerns regarding zoonotic diseases and strict regulations.

Recommendations for Supplements​

While synthetic melatonin is most common, reputable brands often focus on providing pure, lab-tested synthetic melatonin that mimics natural melatonin without any contamination risks. Natural melatonin supplements sourced from animal glands are uncommon and not widely promoted due to the reasons outlined above.

If you're looking for natural alternatives to melatonin, consider lifestyle changes or herbal supplements like valerian root, passionflower, or magnesium glycinate, which support sleep without directly supplementing melatonin.

 

[katarinak]

usually investigate further because I don't trust GPT to be accurate, but it's good enough to give hints.

I don't trust GPT either, several times I've the veracity of GPT's claims. Well anyway thank you very much, didn't even think to start with GPT.

f you're looking for natural alternatives to melatonin, consider lifestyle changes or herbal supplements like valerian root, passionflower, or magnesium glycinate, which support sleep without directly supplementing melatonin.

We collect and dry medicinal herbs, we have been active in this field for quite a long time and we also supply several people from our surroundings. As for lifestyle changes, I should be fine on that one too.

I think changes are still needed on the mind issue. When one wakes up in the night and the mind is immediately flooded with a lot of information and thoughts, it is difficult to calm it down and go on sleeping. I wonder if one wakes up to remember a dream, or to learn to consciously control one's thoughts better, or because something is happening outside that affects us, or just because one is getting older and it's a matter of age?

Therefore, if one tries different types of melatonin and if neither works, it seems to me as a good exclusion method that our body is producing enough melatonin and so we need to turn our attention further.

And since I have little awareness in this area of the different types of melatonin I'd like to orient oneself so I know what I'm going to test. Basically, I believe that our body is letting us know externally that something inside is wrong. And if we can find and eliminate the cause, the problem or disease will be solved. My insomnia is pretty well under control, but it's still not 100%, so I'm continuing in that direction.

Thank you again for the information you sent

​