John G
The Living Force
Well my first manager at IBM told me that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, implying I didn't squeak enough I guess, business politics is a pain. Will have to look at that thread.
Highly Sensitive + High Sensation Seeker (INFP Personality)
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Understood, so there's no anxiety about it not working, but you still would like to change it.
The thing is, that even if it's a fantasy that you create yourself or a form of external source like a video or pictures, what is happening in your brain and body is the result of a deeply rooted dopamine pathway, sort of, essentially you have fallen into a deep trench where the behavior is only available through that one avenue, and all other pathways are so unused that they seem inaccesible.
From my humble view I could suggest a few ideas.
The first is the recognition that even if it's a self generated fantasy, it still is a form of stimulation to get something going. And that works like caffeine would, and if so, the way to recover some of the natural pathways of motivation is similar to quitting caffeine, you could train yourself to not indulge so much on the fantasy world or on the videos for your source of stimulation. As such, you could potentially go through a withdrawal period, but once you've cleaned yourself from it, things should start flowing more naturally.
The thing with sexual energy or desire is that it's always there, and it will find a way to express itself, if you've given it decades of training of only finding expression through a single door, then that's where it'll go by default, but if that door is closed, it'll give you the chance to create a different pathway for it to show through. Though it can be difficult and even painful, but I think it's worth it.
The trouble is that, just like with any other stimulant, overt fantasizing or dissociation, have a way to build tolerance in us, and as such the requirement for stimulation to get at that same level grows higher and higher. So, the way out of it is to consciously spend more time away from fantasizing, and detox from it if you will.
The other thing I was thinking about while reading you is that, maybe as a background to the above work, you could mediate on what you express through sexual experience? I don't think you need to be explicit or descriptive here, or even answer that question for others if you're not comfortable, but your fantasies bring you to a place that expreses more than just the physical sensation, there might be something else.
It could be affection, care, intimacy. But there's a lot more that can be expressed this way, anger, fears, insecurities, possession or submission and so on. So, perhaps this is a great opportunity for you to choose what gets expressed via physical intimacy, which means working on expressing the rest of those aspects in an appropriate manner.
This way you can place things where they belong and give each its due.
In short, the only way I see of changing that behavioral pattern is to look at it from the point of view of diet, you consume something that has had an effect on you, and the way to address it is by becoming conscious of what you consume and quitting it, not without a way to supplement what that was fulfilling. Go through the detox and withdrawal, and slowly come out of it on the other side.
I hope it helps, I know that this topic is as particular as there are people on earth, but the pattern of stimulants and behavior seems to be very similar for most of us.
John G
The Living Force
I could certainly see what happens if I try to avoid getting aroused by anything. Sex for us is actually kind of too clinical really and we only do it a few times a year and the last time a few weeks ago was just our hands since my wife's knees are bad (she will be getting one replaced next month). Back when her knees were working, it only worked with her on top and it's still not easy lining things up and I lose it during this a lot even with a really good fantasy going and we start over with my wife's hand again. When I do it solo, it's usually just for arousal not an actual finish since I never know when our next sex day might be and I don't want to make a difficult to do thing more difficult by having done it solo earlier in the day. Thus I do actually have lots of experience with going long periods of time with just arousal no finish.
John G
The Living Force
Until the last couple years, she had really good ones but they would almost always be either before mine or after mine via my hands; it's difficult enough without trying to get the timing perfect. She has kind of wimpy ones now and we both laugh a bit about it. My wife does wish I wasn't so quiet during sex and she wishes I was more into initiating sex days. She complains that I'm always frisky when the time/place makes it impossible to do anything about it.
Jo Bugman
Jedi
Hi John, I also took the same test some years ago. It said I was an INFP, but I don't put much faith into personality tests since our 'selves' are constantly changing. There may be an 'I' in you that is INTP, then another that is something else, and so on.
What Alejo says here is great advice. I was a constant daydream myself, always dreaming up fantasies where I was acting in ways that I was too scared to do in reality. Whether it was flirting a girl, sex, or simply being social with others. The fantasizing gives a dopamine high, which feels good at the moment, but wears you out over time. Cupid's Poisoned Arrow by Marnia Robinson is a good book on the effects of dopamine on the brain. There's a thread on here if you haven't read through it yet.
Well, the thing with that pattern, if you pay attention, is that it kind of confirms that you're addicted or more inclined towards the stimulant than the actual goal of it. You achieve the arousal by fantasizing or watching something, and then stay in that mode for as long as you can, correct? It would also explain why you seem to seek it whenever it's impossible to do anything about it, you don't want the end of it, you want the stimulation prior to.
It seems to indicate that you prefer the fantasy, in which you can be whatever your imagination comes up with, or the videos at a safe distance, than real intimacy that looks and feels nothing like your fantasies or the videos. It's a way to stay outside of reality, where you don't have to face yourself or someone else and risk disappointment.
As I mentioned above, since it has been a long standing behavior, it's probably deeply ingrained in your brain and body, which is why you're having trouble with doing it any other way. So the way to change that, if you want to, is to quit the stimulant, be it videos or your own fantasies.
If you want to, that is.
You could have real intimacy that extends beyond the bedroom. Even though you might feel as though real life is boring and pales in comparison to what your imagination can create, the truth is the exact opposite. Fantasy could never, ever be matched by the lies that fantasy or frisky videos offer.
John G
The Living Force
A couple of the links I used in my original post were about health/development levels and these are things that can change over time. Kind of all my links had to do with this at least indirectly so yes my problem wouldn't really be my INFP nature bias but my nurture development kind of though my problems might be ones fairly common for INFPs but not just for INFPs I would think.
John G
The Living Force
The videos were just this year, I clicked on suggested videos from Facebook in between watching my subscribed to Doctor Who videos and yes they have the same effect as my fantasies even though the fantasies are much naughtier. This is an oversimplification/exaggeration but it's kind of like after getting devastated over a girl in high school, I kind of wanted to drown her out by staying aroused 24 hours a day. Seeing the street sign of the street she lived on 40 years later is still a tad sad. The way I talked about her on the romantic fiction thread made me look really odd even to me. I actually had to stop doing that exercise. For all I know rethinking about her too much is part of why I fell for the suggested videos.
Hi John - I'm also an INFP (according to the online tests) so a couple of things came to mind that might be helpful, specifically related to the above quote.
Firstly their seems to be unspoken expectations on your part about the goal of such activities, so it might be worth searching the forum for Karezza or reading more here: Karezza: Couples Say Orgasm-Free Sex Sparks Intimacy -- Sott.net
This brings us to the second part which I think may be more important - how is your overall communication with your wife? If she wishes you'd talk more, you may need to work on it.
Jordan Peterson recommends sitting down for at least 90 minutes a week (not necessarily in one sitting) and discussing mundane (but important) things like the state of the house or finances, as well as how life is going generally - so that you are both on the same page.
I would think that concerns about her knees (or even just pain from them) is perhaps something that is bothering her, and that would get in the way of intimacy for her - especially if it hasn't been discussed.
He also recommends a 'date night' at least once a week so you can work on the 'spark', and discuss your fantasies with your wife. More so practice seduction, flirting and the verbal/non-verbal play of romance.
Communication involves vulnerability, and more so for introverted types communication is likely to destroy fantasies (or all kinds) because reality often doesn't mesh with what you've imagined. Fantasy is also a fantastically easy way of escaping from things, especially emotions that may be uncomfortable (including vulnerability during intimacy).
I tried to find some shorter videos on these topics, unfortunately I couldn't - so here are two full podcasts that expand on the communication side of things (in the context of relationships). Which I suspect is perhaps something you may need to focus on.
If you only have time for one, I'd recommend the first video.
That's what I was thinking too.. I reckon lack of communication is, maybe, the #1 contributor to relationship problems of all kinds. I hesitate to give advice or sound too much like I know what I'm talking about, because I'm not widely experienced.. But for what it's worth, my partner and I have been together for about 18 years so far. It's a forever thing for both of us, but we aren't technically married because it didn't seem important or like anyone else's business, though maybe our ideas on that are changing, but that's something for my own thread I should start...
A couple years into our relationship I was telling her what my parents had been like when they were still together, trying to figure out what went wrong with them.. I figured it was that they didn't communicate. They didn't fight much or anything, it was just that you could tell they weren't really operating in sync. It always felt like there were invisible walls of silence up everywhere. So we decided to not do that.. So we try to tell each other everything, especially how we're feeling. We don't always succeed. But it's good.
I think that was when our relationship first became strong, because at that time I had an addiction and, as addicts tend to do, I would always automatically try to keep the extent of it hidden - even though she already knew about it from when we first met!. so after that realisation about my parents, I came clean with her. In worse times, I told her when I was really upset with myself and just didn't know what to do, but still wasn't going to stop my addiction.. etc etc. It sometimes lead to conflict but it also felt like a turning around a corner into bright fresh air... (I'm making it sound more dramatic than it was, it was just normal day to day life and trying to be totally open.....)
So I was wondering if you tell your wife how you feel (ie, the things you're writing about in this thread), John G? You said you both have a bit of a laugh about some sex stuff... I think that's very healthy :) But does she know all the stuff in this thread?
Just an example, might be super obvious and basic, and I don't know if it applies at all to you, but is the *kind* of thing I see happening in the relationships of other people I know: If you're having problems getting things to work, physically, during intimacy... if you don't talk about it with her (eg telling her about your need for fantasy), she could end up with suspicions that you don't love her any more (or even just don't find her attractive), which could make her subconsciously change how she acts towards you as well, which you might subconsciously notice, which could contribute even more to your physical problems.... a big feedback loop of errors based on a faulty assumption.. But if you told her all about it, it could clear the air and you can both work on it together.
(And of course this would all go both ways, we each have to learn to listen to our partners so they can be open with us and have it not fall on deaf ears.. and it's not just about stuff related to sex, but all aspects of life, of course!)
My two cents!
I think Brandon's post is relevant in light of the above, the way it seems to me is that you're describing an addictive behavior, something that you have lived for a long part of your life. And from your descriptions, it seems like part of it was designed to numb a painful experience, and part of it, nowadays specially, is because you got so very used to it that there's perhaps no interest in changing, or maybe even anxiety about what a world without that portion of your self would look like.
That's what I meant above by, what do you get out of the behavior? numbing pain and a maintenance of something you probably consider largely part of your identity.
There are several threads in the forum where addiction has been discussed at length, I would suggest you perhaps start there, once you've recognized to yourself the nature of your behavior and once you've chosen to change it.
Here are a few threads that I believe might bring some light to the issue, as you'll see, we all have struggled with it to a degree or another.
John G
The Living Force
I did mention this forum being believe it or not into romance novels and mentioned a Hallmark-like movie we had recently seen was based on one. We then talked about a couple of my former girlfriends and her former boyfriends. My son was around for a little of it and said he thought the only person I dated before Mom was someone my parents set me up with for a couple dates. I said yeah I actually dated someone on top of the Sears Tower. With my wife only, we mentioned how naughty we were before marriage and that there are incriminating photos around somewhere so we'd be in trouble if we both kicked the bucket and the kids had to go through our stuff. My wife to be had sent underthings which I wore and took pictures of and sent back along with a vial of you don't want to know but could probably guess. My wife also mentioned she has one of the letters I sent her and would probably have more if they weren't so very naughty and the one she has likely isn't squeaky clean. The first week I met her in person I had her dressed as a mermaid in the bathtub and my wife confirmed my memory that we tried to do it but realized it was geometrically impossible. My wife suggests that her being 80 lbs. heavier than me probably doesn't help and I'm only 5'7" so I'm likely not overly big in another measurement so we both kind of know we are geometrically challenged.
My wife did say the cards I sent with flowers were quite romantic so long distance me was OK in that area; in person me not so much. My proposal was something like so should we go get rings? My son was there for some of that discussion and stated it's a miracle he ever got born. In person me was kind of too timid and long distance me was kind of oversexed. I also read about INFPs a little to my wife mentioning our ability to withdraw into our dark meditative caves which can be taxing to the spouse. Also mentioned INFPs can take the other extreme and be on a quest taxing the spouse to keep their feet on the ground. Some of my original ending up at this forum quest was kind of taxing to the spouse and probably relates to why I'm not in the private FOTCM forum in spite of being here forever (that and my general oddness).
John G
The Living Force
It's fairly easy to start giving up getting aroused; INFPs are kind of OK at acting like martyrs and giving up something; it's not like I'd ever have fought even a tiny bit for a girl. I've done it before for a few days and noticed myself being angered by things more easily so I use that to give up the sacrificing arousal thing. It's only been a couple days now but I recognize the more easily angered thing starting. I never raise my voice, I just kind of grit my teeth and prance around the house in what my family refers to as me "dancing". I do this a lot even when not giving up on arousals. My daughter will say, are you on Facebook again.
So, what do you want to do John G?
The reason I ask is because, I don't know if I've read a direct choice from you in this exchange. I think the anger might be a good sign, even if there's a need to navigate it properly, but it's a sign of you having changed something that has initiated a process of withdrawal. Although, as you yourself just pointed out. Beware of the attachment to the idea of being a martyr, that can have its own allure.
The reason I ask is because, I don't know if I've read a direct choice from you in this exchange. I think the anger might be a good sign, even if there's a need to navigate it properly, but it's a sign of you having changed something that has initiated a process of withdrawal. Although, as you yourself just pointed out. Beware of the attachment to the idea of being a martyr, that can have its own allure.
