Historical Events Database - History

[Martina]

This is just a theory.
In my free time I read about the Christian saints because I was wandering what could have all contributed to foundation of Christianity, and checking for the date when Caesar could have been born. Based on stories that baby Jesus and Caesar were born when comet appeared, and that comet was seen after the death of Caesar, I took the Halley's comet as a possibility. If you remember the C's first mentioned Jesus was born 14 BC, and pope Benedict XVI wrote in his book that Jesus might have been born 12 BC because Halley's comet appeared that year.
If we look at a dates of apperance of this comet Halley's Comet - Wikipedia we can see year 12 BC but also year 374 AD and 451 AD which is close to C's year 380. Comet comes every 74-79 years, so the year of Caesar's birth could have been 374, 376, or 380 AD. It could be that people who changed our history didn't know exact year that's why you have the end of West Roman Empire in year 476 AD which most likely didn't happen at all, but is 376 +100 (BC) = 476, or better this way: 476 - fake Caesar's birth date = the real year of Caeasr's birth. Putting Julius Nepos Julius Nepos - Wikipedia in history, the man who never existed same as Romulus Augustulus Romulus Augustulus - Wikipedia was important for 2 reasons to get extra emperors and to know where to start counting.
I was using the number 374 first in my counting. When I started to read http://www.hagiographysociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Head_Hagiography-to-1000.pdf on page 3: In 382 the statue of Victory, the divinity symbolic of Rome's military power and success, was removed from the meeting hall of the Senate. I remembered the same thing happened when Sulla became the dictator AND if you calculate 474- 382 you get 92 BUT you have to include 10 years more that Caesar lived, he didn't die with 65 years. Than you have the year Sulla became the dictator and that is 82 BC, which is the year 382 AD! Which could be the impulse for worshiping of martyrs, they were the victims from Sulla's civil war, the Spartacus rebellion and the Gracchi brothers reforms Gracchi - Wikipedia .Those were times of tremendous bloodshed and fear. Christianity was shaping for a long time during Middle Ages, the story of Mary and Joseph running with baby Jesus is story of Marc Anthony helping Cleopatra to flee Rome with baby Cesarion, we know how they ended Battle of Actium - Wikipedia, Marcus Aurelius the stoic philosopher king also contributed a lot, he lived in 8th century, the story of Jesus entering the temple with 12 years could be the story of him learning philosophy, and so on... Play with dates, you will be surprised!

 

[Ina]

I am pretty sure you already know, but would these books fill in the gap?

Columbanus and the Peoples of Post-Roman Europe
Alexander O'HaraApril 11, 2018
Oxford University Press
“The period 550 to 750 was one in which monastic culture became more firmly entrenched in Western Europe. The role of monasteries and their relationship to the social world around them was transformed during this period as monastic institutions became more integrated in social and political power networks. This collected volume of essays focuses on one of the central figures in this process, the Irish ascetic exile and monastic founder, Columbanus (c. 550-615), his travels on the Continent, and the monastic network he and his Frankish disciples established in Merovingian Gaul and Lombard Italy. The post-Roman kingdoms through which Columbanus travelled and established his monastic foundations were made up of many different communities of peoples. As an outsider and immigrant, how did Columbanus and his communities interact with these peoples? How did they negotiate differences and what emerged from these encounters? How societies interact with outsiders can reveal the inner workings and social norms of that culture. This volume aims to explore further the strands of this vibrant contact and to consider all of the geographical spheres in which Columbanus and his monastic communities operated (Ireland, Merovingian Gaul, Alamannia, Lombard Italy) and the varieties of communities he and his successors came in contact with - whether they be royal, ecclesiastic, aristocratic, or grass-roots.
ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Alexander O'Hara is a Research Fellow of the Institut für Mittelalterforschung in the Austrian Academy of Sciences, Vienna and an Honorary Fellow of the School of History in the University of St. Andrews. He is the translator (with Ian Wood) of Jonas of Bobbio's Life of Columbanus and His Disciples and was the Principal Investigator of the project "The Columbanian Network: Elite Identities and Christian Communities in Europe (550-750)," funded by the Austrian Science Fund from 2013-2016.”

I attached the Table of Contents.

Almost contemporary is also Jordanes’s History of the Goths, The Gothic history of Jordanes in English version; : Jordanes, 6th cent : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive.

Another book I like is Storia d'Italia del MedioEvo di Carlo Troya. The link is for Volume 4, but at the bottom of the page there are links for all volumes. Storia d'Italia del MedioEvo di Carlo Troya Vol.1 Parte 4 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive



Ina

 

[Ca.]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1063280568916484097

Madagascar: Plague | IAMAT
Oct 15, 2018 - Plague - Madagascar (03): bubonic & pneumonic, update, fatal. ProMED-mail 2018;

https://twitter.com/x/status/1063205063890477062

https://twitter.com/x/status/1063327087770198016

Premiere #neige of the season yesterday at #NewYork(#EtatsUnis ) - Discover NYC: Discover New York City on Instagram: “It’s still going | @camatta #newyork #nyc #iloveny #newyorknewyork #newyorker #newyorkcity #newyork_ig #igersnewyork #newyorklife…”

 

[whitecoast]

I didn't know where else this could go so I thought I'd link it here. The book is called The Fate of Rome: Climate, Disease, and the End of an Empire. Kyle Harper is professor of classics and letters and senior vice president and provost at the University of Oklahoma. He is the author of Slavery in the Late Roman World, AD 275–425 and From Shame to Sin: The Christian Transformation of Sexual Morality in Late Antiquity. He lives in Norman, Oklahoma.

The Fate of Rome

How devastating viruses, pandemics, and other natural catastrophes swept through the far-flung Roman Empire and helped to bring down one of the mightiest civilizations of the ancient world

press.princeton.edu

A sweeping new history of how climate change and disease helped bring down the Roman Empire
...
Interweaving a grand historical narrative with cutting-edge climate science and genetic discoveries, Kyle Harper traces how the fate of Rome was decided not just by emperors, soldiers, and barbarians but also by volcanic eruptions, solar cycles, climate instability, and devastating viruses and bacteria. He takes readers from Rome’s pinnacle in the second century, when the empire seemed an invincible superpower, to its unraveling by the seventh century, when Rome was politically fragmented and materially depleted. Harper describes how the Romans were resilient in the face of enormous environmental stress, until the besieged empire could no longer withstand the combined challenges of a “little ice age” and recurrent outbreaks of bubonic plague.

A poignant reflection on humanity’s intimate relationship with the environment, The Fate of Rome provides a sweeping account of how one of history’s greatest civilizations encountered and endured, yet ultimately succumbed to the cumulative burden of nature’s violence. The example of Rome is a timely reminder that climate change and germ evolution have shaped the world we inhabit—in ways that are surprising and profound.

I haven't read it yet, but it looks interesting. May give a nice little preview of what to expect in the future.

 

[Nostradamus]

I didn't know where else this could go so I thought I'd link it here. The book is called The Fate of Rome: Climate, Disease, and the End of an Empire. Kyle Harper is professor of classics and letters and senior vice president and provost at the University of Oklahoma. He is the author of Slavery in the Late Roman World, AD 275–425 and From Shame to Sin: The Christian Transformation of Sexual Morality in Late Antiquity. He lives in Norman, Oklahoma.

The Fate of Rome

How devastating viruses, pandemics, and other natural catastrophes swept through the far-flung Roman Empire and helped to bring down one of the mightiest civilizations of the ancient world

press.princeton.edu

I haven't read it yet, but it looks interesting. May give a nice little preview of what to expect in the future.

Hi Whitecoast,

It's a good book, I read it before this summer. As you wrote, it shows well how a civilization declines for a while before collapsing abruptly and brings us back to our present day.

He argues in favour of a volcanic eruption to explain the temperature decreases in 536 (or more precisely of a "supervolcan", well yes the eruption must be gigantic for the veil of dust to cover so long the whole northern hemisphere!)

Apart from the historical facts that you probably already know, here are some things I found useful:

1) He recalls the recurrence of plagues and their generally underestimated demographic impact: antonine plague (he estimates at least 7 million deaths) and the Cyprian plague, "the forgotten pandemic" around 245 AD with Cyprian's interesting conversion to Christianity, the emperor of compassion; The plague of 450 that fell on Rome and drove Attila away (or is it the same event described in 540?)

2) There are interesting connections between Apollo / comet / plague.
Apollo with long hair, "The god forbade kissing" (which reminds us of "the kiss of Yersinia's death"); the god Apollo "Alexikakos", who keeps evil away.

"For a long time, the god Apollo has been associated with pestilence; in Homer's epic poem, he is the archer whose arrows carry the plague... the desperate attempts throughout the Empire to appease the god whose anger was considered the cause of the catastrophe".

3) At the time of the plague of Cyprian, an explosive transformation of Christianity and the abandonment of the ancient god Apollo

4) The most interesting is its explanation of the "domino effect" with Eurasian migration to the East (conflict with the Han Chinese, remembered by the Great Wall) and to the West. This is what he writes:

"On the chaos that was going to reverberate from east to west, we have little information. In 1907 in Dunhuang, Sir Aurel Stein discovered, still sealed, a set of letters hidden in a former Han guard tower along the western border under Chinese control. Written around 313 AD, it[one of the letters] describes apocalyptic scenes of famine, destruction and migration in the heart of the Han Empire in the East. Under the constraints of the unrest, the emperor had had to abandon his capital, Luoyang, leaving it at the mercy of nomadic invaders. Importantly, the Sogdian merchant gives the names of those responsible for this limitless violence: the Xwn, that is, the Huns. Etienne de la Vaissière's philological research clearly established the affiliation between the Xiongnu enemies of the Han Chinese and the Huns who submerged Central Asia in the 4th century. ...] The Xiongnu, the Xwn, the Huns: the most advanced social formations of the steppes were about to violently shift to the west".

In Kyle Harper's words, "the Huns were climate refugees in arms and on horseback" and it would seem that Hunnian society broke up into a multitude of groups that moved discontinuously both east and west. Moreover, historians often refuse to admit that the Xiongnu and the Xwn are the same people under the pretext that they do not belong to the same period... That falls well a few centuries too many in the chronology!

Add : if my English is unpleasant to read, please indicate it to me

My regards, Nostradamus.

 

[angelburst29]

Queen Elizabeth attended a service at London's Westminster Abbey on Tuesday to mark 750 years since King Edward the Confessor's original church on the site was rebuilt during the reign of Henry III and consecrated in 1269.

UK queen attends service for Westminster Abbey's 750th anniversary

Britain's Queen Elizabeth and Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, leave after a service to mark the 750th anniversary of Westminster Abbey in London, Britain October 15, 2019. Paul Ellis

October 15, 2019 - The 93-year-old monarch was accompanied by her daughter-in-law Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, wife of her eldest son Prince Charles.

The Anglo-Saxon abbey, one of Britain’s oldest and biggest tourist attractions, was where Elizabeth was crowned in 1953, where her grandson Prince William and his wife Kate were married in 2011 and where 17 British monarchs are buried.

It was originally consecrated in 1065 and mostly demolished by Henry III to build the present Gothic structure. At the start of the service, a bouquet of roses was laid at the Shrine of St. Edward the Confessor on behalf of the queen.

Later, abbey treasures including a fragment of the shroud from the shrine were laid on the High Altar.

Westminster Abby treasures go on display for 750th Anniversary
Westminster Abbey treasures go on display for 750th anniversary

Westminster Abbey, which is celebrating it's 750th anniversary, still offers worship every day of the year.

A precious fragment of the shroud of Edward the Confessor and ancient royal manuscripts will be laid on the high altar at Westminster Abbey during a service to celebrate the 750th anniversary of the gothic church.

The abbey was consecrated on 13 October 1269 after Henry III rebuilt a basilica constructed on the same site by St Edward, the Anglo-Saxon king and the first English saint to be canonized by Rome.

The Queen and the Duchess of Cornwall will attend the anniversary event on Tuesday where some of the abbey’s most beloved treasures will be on show. King Edgar’s grant of land in 960 enabling the establishment of the very first Benedictine monastery where the abbey now stands will be placed on the altar. The 14th-century Litlyngton Missal will be opened alongside it.

Two elaborate 13th-century manuscripts signed by Henry III are on public show for the first time in the abbey’s galleries. In tightly written ink script on vellum (calf skin) and with impressive wax seals on silk cords, they reveal Henry’s wish to be buried in his new church alongside Edward, whom he venerated. They also reveal his pawning of gold, precious stones and jewels when he ran into financial difficulty during the extravagant rebuilding.



A 1267 inventory of Edward the Confessor’s shrine listed the huge amount of gold, precious stones and jewels taken from the shrine to be pawned by a cash-strapped Henry III. Photograph: Dean and Chapter of Westminster

For centuries, Westminster Abbey has been at the centre of national life, and it has been described as Britain’s Valhalla, after the burial hall of Norse mythology.

The site’s exact history is still a mystery. Monks may have founded a small community here as early as 604. When the Confessor chose the spot to establish his palace, which eventually would become the Palace of Westminster, he built a new monastic church. His Romanesque basilica is depicted in the Bayeux tapestry.

Henry III, a devotee of Edward, began the creation of the abbey as it is known today. The famous west towers would not be added until 1745.

“Westminster Abbey was here before anything else,” said Hall. “We were two miles south-west of London and on a remote damp little island, Thorney Island, just surrounded by tributaries of the Thames and the Thames itself. Now we have the Palace of Westminster, the supreme court, the government offices in Whitehall. So now the centre of government is around here and the abbey is very much part of that particular community.”


The coronation chair at Westminster Abbey.

Links with royalty and parliament go back centuries. With two exceptions, every English and, subsequently, British monarch has been crowned here since William the Conqueror in 1066.

“The Confessor and the Conqueror were the first sovereigns to associate themselves closely with the abbey, and they also made Westminster their place of residence and the seat of government, hereby connecting church and state in a bond that has lasted and evolved across the subsequent millennium,” writes the historian and president of the British Academy, Sir David Cannadine, in Westminster Abbey: a Church in History, published to mark the 750th anniversary.

It survived Henry VIII’s dissolution by becoming a cathedral. Mary I re-established it as a monastery. Elizabeth 1 established it as a royal peculiar – answerable to the sovereign and outside the jurisdiction of the Church of England – and named it the Collegiate Church of St Peter, Westminster.

Its status as a royal peculiar means other faiths can pray there. It is for all faiths and none. In recent years its services have marked the anniversaries of the Srebrenica massacre, of Kristallnacht, of the liberation of Auschwitz, of the death of Martin Luther King. Its annual Commonwealth Day service is invariably attended by the Queen.

Its fame has been fanned by televised ceremonies including the wedding of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge and the extraordinary funeral of Diana, Princess of Wales. It attracts 2 million tourists and worshippers a year.

“It has been a house of prayer and devotion for much more than a millennium. It is a building of outstanding architectural significance and an unrivalled national mausoleum,” said Cannadine. “It’s close and lengthy relations with the parliaments of governments of this country are unequalled by any other church in any other Country.

A view Of Westminster Abbey And Adjacent Buildings As They Appeared Prior To The Disastrous Fire Of 1834. The painting was done by Rudolph Ackermann in 1819

 

[Voyageur]

"For a long time, the god Apollo has been associated with pestilence; in Homer's epic poem, he is the archer whose arrows carry the plague... the desperate attempts throughout the Empire to appease the god whose anger was considered the cause of the catastrophe".

Recently came across a students thesis 'PESTILENCEAND PRAYER: SAINTS AND THE ART OF THE PLAGUE IN ITALY FROM 1370-1600' written by Jessica Marie Ortega (fall term 2012 University of Central Florida). You can grab a copy here to read.

The thesis builds on this theme starting from Homer (above bold) of arrows, carried forward to other times right up to the 1300's and forward. It looks to the Plague Saints who were written about and painted in iconography starting directly as plagues were developing.

The Saints are categorized in tiers: first tier, second tier and third tier Saints - see example from appendix A:

"First-tier" Plague Saints {universally acknowledged}
•St. Sebastian: Martyr (3rd century)
•St. Roch: Martyr (c. 1295 -1327

"Second-tier" Plague Saints {no generally acknowledged}
•St. Christopher: Martyr (3rd century)
•St. Cosmas and Damian: Martyrs (3rd -4th century)
•St. Nicholas of Tolentino: Augustinian Friar (1245 -1305)
•St. Gregory the Great: Pope and Doctor of the Church (c. 540 -604)
•St. Bernardino of Siena: Franciscan Friar (1380-1444)

"Third-tier" Plague Saints {"directly associated with outbreak"}
•St. Fabian: Pope and Martyr (3rd century)
•St. Vincent Ferrer: Dominican Friar (1350 -1419)
•St. Peter Martyr: Dominican Friar and Martyr (1205-1252)

And descriptions of their deeds were built up around them.

The introduction speaks to the 1348 Black Death.

Ortega states:

These subsequent outbreaks were not as devastating as the initial wave in 1348, but the fact that this epidemic returned so frequently kept people constantly aware of eminent death and in fear of not dying well. The Ars Moriendi (The Art of Dying Well) was a Latin text from the fifteenth century that provided directions to the procedure of what was seen as a “good death.”

Of the imagery that emerged:

Saint imagery is a positive reaction against the plague because people used it to focus their devotions and prayers of hope of deliverance. Saints were invoked as plague intercessors during plague epidemics before the Black Death, but visual plague iconography did not exist before its march across Europe in 1348...

Ortega then gets back into the symbols used for plague's:

The oldest symbol of pestilence is the arrow; according to James Hall in Dictionary of Subjects and Symbols in Art, “the arrow is not merely a weapon, but the traditionally carrier of disease, especially the plague.” Apollo is the Greek god most often associated with arrows; he was one of the twelve Olympians and patron of archery (among other things). Apollo was said to never be without his bow and arrows, articles which he used to inflict judgment and death upon disobeying humans. Homer’s Iliad contains the earliest connection to pestilence with arrows. In the Iliad, Apollo is described as a “furious” god who “rang death as his shot his arrows” when he avenged the rape of Chryseis.

The arrow as a symbol of the plague also has its origins in the legend of Apollo and his sister, Diana, massacring the fourteen children of Niobe. They were punishing Niobe because she tried to dissuade the women of Thebes from worshiping Leto, the mother of Apollo and Diana, and boasted of her own superior family connections. To humble her pride, Apollo and Diana killed all her children. The scene is described in Ovid’s Metamorphoses and an ancient Greek urn depicts the children of Niobe fleeing from the siblings’ ruthless arrows. The celestial siblings stand in the center of the urn with their bows drawn as their victims lie at their feet.

A brief discussion on Christianity and paganism that them brings up Hebrew:

The symbol of the plague-arrow also appears in ancient Hebrew literature, and thus provides a direct link to the later Christian traditions. Like the Greco-Roman myths, arrows are symbols of divine punishment in the Old Testament. {then bringing up King David's choice}

The King's choices, and it was arrows.

Giorgio Vasari, The Prophet Gad Offers David a Choice of Three Divine Punishments, San Rocco Altarpiece, 1537, Museo Diocessano, Arezzo, Italy.

Of course there are comets to consider, or plagues following comets, yet the discussion on Saints and the plague and arrows brings out many examples, and the imagery (see in thesis) are unreal i.e., I don't think I've seen so many examples in one place. And note, angels often are the carriers of arrows and the deliverers.

I'll leave this, although a few more (of many) images are below.

 

[angelburst29]

For the first time in centuries, all 12 tapestries designed by Raphael have been hung on the lower walls of the Sistine Chapel as part of celebrations marking the 500th anniversary of the artist's death.

All Raphael's tapestries return to Sistine Chapel after centuries
All Raphael's tapestries return to Sistine Chapel after centuries

A tapestry designed by Renaissance artist Raphael is installed on a lower wall of the Sistine Chapel at the Vatican as part of celebrations marking the 500th anniversary of his death in this handout photo released on Feb 17, 2020.

Feb. 17, 2020 - VATICAN CITY - Putting more masterpieces in Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel to join his ceiling frescoes and Last Judgment wall might seem as superfluous as adding more diamonds to the Crown Jewels.

But the creator of those masterpieces is Raphael, Michelangelo's Renaissance contemporary and rival, so the Vatican has made an exception for a brief stay.

"They were conceived for this space and so we thought it was the best way to celebrate," Barbara Jatta, director of the Vatican Museums, told Reuters.

The tapestries, which were weaved in Brussels by the famed studio of Pieter van Aelst from Raphael's sketches, depict scenes from the Acts of the Apostles, such as The Stoning of St Stephen and St Paul Preaching in Athens.

For the next week, they are back in the Sistine Chapel, where they were between the time Michelangelo finished painting the ceiling in 1512 and when he began painting the massive Last Judgement wall behind the main altar in 1536.

All 12, made with silk, wool and gold and silver thread, have been painstakingly restored by Vatican Museum conservationists in the last 10 years.

"UNIVERSAL IMPORTANCE"

"This place is of universal importance, not only for visual arts but for our faith," Jatta said, standing in the Sistine Chapel. "So we really want to share this beauty with people, even if only for one week".

Seven of the tapestries, commissioned by Pope Leo X, were hung in the chapel on St Stephen's day, Dec 26, 1519. Raphael was probably there to see them but he died four months later at the age of 37. The others were finished after his death.

"The last record that we have of all of them being hung in the Sistine is from the late 1500s," Alessandra Rodolfo, the curator of the exhibition, told Reuters.

Previous exhibitions, some of which lasted only a few hours or a day, included only the 10 larger tapestries, some measuring about six by five metres. Two of the twelve are narrow and hung vertically as borders.

A selection are normally on display on rotation behind glass in climate-controlled spaces in the Vatican Museums.

The Vatican Museums' conservationists and restorers allowed all 12 of the delicate tapestries to be put on show at the same time for only a week, in part to protect them and in part because some will be on loan to other museums.

One will be going soon to Rome's Quirinale Palace's Scuderie museums and another will be going to the National Gallery in London later this year.

"It's exactly what Pope Francis is asking us, which is to share and to be a museum open to everybody and to share our beauty," Jatta said.

Tapestry “The conversion of Saul” designed by Renaissance artist Raphael

Tapestry “St.Paul preaching at Athens” designed by Renaissance artist Raphael

Tapestry “The blinding of Elymas” designed by Renaissance artist Raphael

Tapestry “The sacrifice of Lystra” designed by Renaissance artist Raphael

Tapestry “The death of Ananias” designed by Renaissance artist Raphael

 

[Vulcan59]

FWIW, article on chronology - How Long Was the First Millenium? (Gunnar Heinsohn’s stratigraphy-based chronology)

Conclusion

In the two previous installments, I pointed out all kinds of reasons to question the authenticity and accepted dating of many sources. Some of my working hypotheses can now be corrected. In Part 1, “How fake is Roman Antiquity?” I agreed with Polydor Hochart’s objection to the possibility that books from Imperial Rome were preserved until the 14th-15th century because monks copied them in the 9th, 10th or 11th century. Christian monks copying Pagan works on expensive parchments is just not credible. Rather, we have every reason to believe that, whenever they got their hands on such books, monks either destroyed them or scrapped them to reuse the parchment. Hochart therefore concludes that these books from Imperial Rome are forgeries. But Heinsohn’s revised chronology now gives us a more satisfactory solution: the original composition of these works (1st century) and their medieval copies (9th century at the earliest) are not separated by seven centuries or more, but by one or two centuries at the most. The 9th century still belonged to Roman times, and Christianity was then in its infancy. That doesn’t eliminate suspicion of Medieval or Renaissance fraud, but that reduces it. We can now read Roman sources with a different perspective.

In Part 2, “How fake is Church history?”, I focused on Church history and agreed with Jean Hardouin (1646-1729), the Jesuit librarian who came to the frightening conclusion that all the works ascribed to Augustine (AD 354-430), Jerome of Stridon (AD 347-420), Ambrose of Milan (c. AD 340-397), ad many others, could not have been written before the 11th or 12thcentury, and were therefore forgeries. We can now consider that Hardouin was both right and wrong. He was right in estimating these works much younger than officially claimed (though perhaps with some exaggeration), but he was not necessarily right in concluding that they were forgeries; if Augustine, Jerome and Ambrose really belong, in stratigraphic time, to the end of the Early Middle Ages at the earliest, it is no wonder they are attacking the same heresies as the medieval Church who promoted them.

 

[Palinurus]

UPDATE.

SOTT now carries an article about new evidence for a massive earthquake in mid 8th century BCE in Palestine which also features in the Bible, mentioned/hinted to in the contemporary books of Amos, Isaiah and the much later Zecharia.

In this thread the so-called Amos-earthquake was mentioned at least nine times, starting with post #840 and terminating with post #852 .

Evidence for earthquake 2,800 years ago also mentioned in Bible found in Jerusalem -- Sott.net

 

[Eboard10]

Bridging Timescales: Anchoring Points and the Vesuvius Dilemma

One of the main issues related to chronological dating lies in the differences seen between ice-core records and tree-ring widths. Mike Billie has done extensive work in trying to bridge the gap between these timescales which is markedly visible in the first millennium AD. He published a paper together with McAneney where he convincingly showed that the ice-core dating was approximately 7 years too old compared to tree-ring records during that period.

One of the major “pain points” linked to this issue is the dating of the Vesuvius eruption to 79 AD. In Volcanoes, ice-cores and tree-rings: one-story or two?, Baillie explains how an acid layer had been identified and was dated to 80 AD according to the, now erroneous, Dye-3 layer counting used by Clausen et al. (1997) on the basis of Hammer (1984). Clausen identified major ice acidities in the years 50 BC, 515 AD and 529 AD. He also found another layer in between these signals which fell around 80 AD and was therefore linked to the historical dating of the Vesuvius eruption and used as an anchoring point for the timescale:



However, no such signals were seen in tree rings. Tree-ring chronologies tend to be more accurate than ice-core records, where the timescale has to be estimated based on the depth of the ice-core sample and to specific acid layers that can be “anchored” to known historical events or other verified markers, making this dating mechanism much less reliable.

In fact, frost rings are visible at 43 BC, 522 AD and 536 AD respectively, a clear difference of 7 years compared to the Dye-3 layer counting method. The relative interval between the tree-ring records matches the same interval seen in the ice-core signals, which means that the acid layer that was attributed to the Vesuvius eruption in 79 AD would also have to be moved forward by the same number of years. Moreover, while there was a claim that tephra from the Vesuvius had been found, no evidence has ever been shown of that being the case as pointed out by Baillie and later by Sigl et al (2015):



Sigl has been able to measure a more accurate timescale for the first millennium AD thanks to new records of atmospheric loading measured from a number of different ice-cores and using distinctive age markers arising from major bursts of radiation that stroke Earth in 775 and 994 AD which act as reliable time markers. This new timescale confirms Baillie’s work regarding the inaccurate layer-counting previously used, making the ice-core records up to that point some 7 years too old during the first millennium.

Thanks to the latest advancements in the fields of ice-core dating, there is no evidence of a major eruption occurring in 79 AD, and the layer dated to 87/88 CE favours a higher latitude eruption. We have to therefore question the validity of the historical dating of the Vesuvius eruption to 79 AD.

On the topic of the dating of the eruption of Vesuvius, a preprint has been published where the authors demonstrate how the volcanic signature previously attributed to Vesuvius and erroneously dated 79 CE actually happened in 88 CE and the composition of the volcanic ash suggests the the eruption most likely originated from a volcano in the Aleutian arc [Alaska]. A smaller sulfate peak was observed in two ice core records at 80 CE but they could not identify the source of the signal.

No evidence for tephra in Greenland from the historic eruption of Vesuvius in 79 CE: Implications for geochronology and paleoclimatology​

Abstract. Volcanic signatures archived in polar ice sheets provide important opportunities to date and correlate ice-core records as well as to investigate the environmental impacts of eruptions. Only the geochemical characterization of volcanic ash (tephra) embedded in the ice strata can confirm the source of the eruption, however, and is a requisite if historical eruption ages are to be used as valid chronological checks on annual ice layer counting. Here we report the investigation of ash particles in a Greenland ice core that are associated with a volcanic sulfuric acid layer previously attributed to the 79 CE eruption of Vesuvius. Major and trace element composition of the particles indicates that the tephra does not derive from Vesuvius but most likely originates from an unidentified eruption in the Aleutian arc. Using ash dispersal modelling, we find that only an eruption large enough to include stratospheric injection is likely to account for the sizeable (24–85 μm) ash particles observed in the Greenland ice at this time. Despite its likely explosivity, this event does not appear to have triggered significant climate perturbations, unlike some other large extra-tropical eruptions. In light of a recent re-evaluation of the Greenland ice-core chronologies, our findings further challenge the previous dating of this volcanic event to 79 CE. We highlight the need for the revised Common Era ice-core chronology to be formally accepted by the wider ice-core and climate modelling communities in order to ensure robust age linkages to precisely dated historical and paleoclimate proxy records.

 

[Nostradamus]

Hello everyone,

After reading the last session of September 18, 2021 and @Pierre 's questions about the falsified chronology, I thought it might be interesting to share my point of view.

For 2 years, I have been working hard on this subject, I have analyzed this period entirely (texts, archaeology...) and I have started writing a book to expose my ideas. Here are the main lines in a very synthetic way.

At first, I also thought that the 479 "extra" years were concentrated before the date of 536 and that the whole history of the Roman Empire was distorted. But now I think that this is not possible, from the point of view of material history.

In my opinion, there are 2 big blocks.

The history of the Roman Empire seems correct, and globally quite well documented, during the phase of the early Empire, until the death of Marcus Aurelius and his son Commodus.

From this moment, there is a systemic collapse of the Empire with the Antonine plague which must be put in relation with a cometary event. This is the first block. I think the angle is simultaneity. There is an artificial continuity of emperors, none of whom stayed in Rome. They were called emperors a posteriori to justify the "survival" of the Empire. They were in fact generals who more or less controlled the Roman provinces. This notion of simultaneity is visible when you geolocate the reigns of these emperors. Thus, the tetrarchy under Diocletian is not an innovative measure but the formalization of the situation of the Empire, completely dislocated.

One finds this artificial collage before and after the Tetrarchy. History is thus not fictitious but artificially assembled, which explains how it’s difficult to identify the problem. On the archaeological side, we can see that the constructions of the late Roman Empire are located globally in the Balkans, and that there was, in this part, a survival of the Empire and probably an attempt of reconquest under the Tetrarchy. The palace of Diocletian keeps memory of this situation. Moreover, this explains the name of Romania because the Romanians claim to be the descendants of the Romans.

I think we have about 170 years out of our time, spread out before and after the Tetrarchy. There is a generalized chaos in the Empire, a gigantic demographic collapse with the plague. I think that the Antonine and the Cyprian Plagues are related to a common event and that they are much closer in time than we think. And you have a religious crisis and two opposite responses: Christianity and Mithraism. I think that the cult of Mithras spread during this period and that there is a dating error on this movement. Christianity was first severely fought against and then finally recovered. It is the birth of a state religion under Constantine.

So, between 200 and 430 AD, there is this first block which combines in a complex way chronologically correct sequences and simultaneous sequences artificially arranged in a linear collage. Presumably, there are also some fictitious emperors, I am thinking in particular of Romulus Augustus. But on the whole, I think that the so-called emperors of the Late Empire are characters who really existed. That is why there are factual elements that contradict a complete suppression of this historical sequence. This explains the repetition of events artificially spaced in time. In 250, there are the barbarian invasions, they are contained and then they recur in 430.

Then I think there is a second important block after 536, with the comets and the Justinian plague.

The Carolingians made a coup and usurped the power of the Merovingians. This caused a diplomatic crisis with Byzantium. They created the myth of the lazy kings by inventing a succession of fictitious kings. The dynastic artifice is visible when we compare the texts of Gregory of Tours and Paul the Deacon. I think that there is a sequence of about 200-250 years too long (approximately, between 600 and 850 AD). This is the work of Heribert Illig and the German school.

But the dendrochronology also poses some problems in relation to this thesis because if it were the case, the date of "536" would be shifted...

 

[Keit]

580

[...]

In Touraine this same year, one morning before the day had dawned, a bright light was seen to traverse the sky and then disappear in the East. A sound as of trees crashing to the ground was heard throughout the whole region, but it can hardly have been a tree for it was audible over fifty miles and more.

I stumbled upon an article in Russian about another event that happened in 1670 in Touraine that was documented by an engraving made by Hennin. The engraving is called "Représentation d'un phénomène épouvantable que l'on a vu en Touraine du 5 au 15 août 1670".

After a search I found a post from 2012 in English called "Strange happenings in the sky over the Touraine ~ 1670 ~ can you shed any light?":

Well, who can explain the story behind the image below of happenings in the sky above the Touraine during the 5th to the 15th August, 1670?

I have no idea if the blazing planks represent comets or meteors ~ but certainly the warring armies in the heavens have got to indicate that there was either a lot of noise associated with the incident or, perhaps, that the gods had fallen out.

I’ve asked my Touraine-based astronomer friend Colin Dyson, but he’s no idea. So, do you have any suggestions? If so, do share.

It's possible that others already saw this image. I actually remember seeing it in articles about "UFO depictions in Art". Also tried to search for it on the Meteorites, Asteroids, and Comets: Damages, Disasters, Injuries, Deaths, and Very Close Calls, and it's not there. So it's possible that it is another good candidate for the list.

Even if it is strange that these are not "balls" of fire. It's like it depics "a battle in the sky". Who knows, there could be some meteorites/UFO connection there as well. Or it could be a depiction of some plasma event.

 

[XPan]

Did a meteor over central Italy in AD 312 change the course of Roman and Christian history?

Jens Ormo, a Swedish geologist, and colleagues working in Italy believe Constantine witnessed a meteoroid impact.

The research team believes it has identified what remains of the impactor's crater.

It is the small, circular Cratere del Sirente in central Italy. It is clearly an impact crater, Ormo says, because its shape fits and it is also surrounded by numerous smaller, secondary craters, gouged out by ejected debris, as expected from impact models.

Radiocarbon dating puts the crater's formation at about the right time to have been witnessed by Constantine and there are magnetic anomalies detected around the secondary craters - possibly due to magnetic fragments from the meteorite.

According to Ormo, it would have struck the Earth with the force of a small nuclear bomb, perhaps a kiloton in yield. It would have looked like a nuclear blast, with a mushroom cloud and shockwaves.

It would have been quite an impressive sight and, if it really was what Constantine saw, could have turned the tide of the conflict.

I found the Sirente Crater Study

from Jens Ormö, Angelo Pio Rossi and Goro Komatsu (revised 21 Feb 2002).
Here they date the Sirente Meteor to AD 412 (1650 +/- 40 radiocarbon years B.P).

15 pdf pages as attachment.

 

[Jtucker]

Re: Historical Events Database

By the way, the quoted text in the previous post is from Lapidge's "The Anglo Saxon Library".

Since I'm working this out in my head as I go along, let's continue and if anybody finds anything to add or sees a big glitch, let me know.

So, we have a story about some monks heading for the hills of England in 597 on a "Gregorian Mission" to convert the Anglo Saxons following which, we supposedly have some Greek monkly types with high-sounding titles traveling up there with a bunch of books. Let's see if there is a connection.

I wrote above about the Gregorian mission: "Or was the first wave "refugees" that went to England and in true "elite style", subdued the natives to their doctrine and then later, sent representatives to see how things were going and to say "hey, we've got it pretty good up here... send more peeps and books!" Let's check a quick Roman History Timeline according to the mainstream:




Here is the other side of that story from Wikipedia, seriously dressed up, I should add: (for notes and references, check Wikipedia: Augustine of Canterbury - Wikipedia )



So, we have Augustine and his pals all cozy with a local chieftain AKA King, who was married to a Frankish lady of the "Royal Merovingians" ... and we are wondering how a chunk of an Eastern Greek chronicle found its way into the History of the Franks written by a "Gregory of Tours"???

But wait, we have a little time before our Greek monks arrive from Rome. Before their arrival, there were other archbishops following Augustine - or so we are told. See the list here: List of archbishops of Canterbury - Wikipedia The three following Augustine were all members of his mission, allegedly. And then, native archbishops, in the middle of which we suddenly see Theodore from Cilicia??? He sticks out like a sore thumb.

But, clearly, something was afoot with all these power-mad church guys cozying up to the ruling elite. Clearly, they ALL knew what had happened to the Empire, and they were doing what pathological types always do when their con is exposed: move to another place, wait for the heat to cool down, and keep playing the game. That's what this whole thing looks like from a distance. All the grandiose history that was written later about their marvelous church, their holy saints, etc etc, was a load of bollocks.

Anyway, it seems to me that the cozy affair with the Anglo-Saxons and Franks may have led to the necessity of providing a sufficiently estimable history for said Franks and Anglo-Saxons, and this was probably discussed openly. It was probably realized that they wouldn't be able to get away with a history that did NOT include some catastrophic events, duly recorded as background, so some talent was needed. The travels to Rome by Benedict Biscop probably were in search of suitable talent and materials.



Yeah, I bet he was "full "full of fervour and enthusiasm ... for the good" of the power elite of which he was a member.



And I just bet that their library also included Syrian and Greek texts from which they lifted the skeleton of the History of the Franks.

I've been re-reading this thread trying to figure out what's going on with the adjustments that would have to be made to shrink the whole world of the late empire down by more than four centuries to make a coherent narrative seem to make sense of late antiquity, early Christianity Carolingian "new" history make any sense at all.

I can't imagine how frustrating it must be for Laura who spent decades researching a plausible line of events, only to have the C's throw it all back into a blender with 460 years of events removed/replaced or reinterpreted.

IMO think there are a handful of historical markers that only the C's could answer to anchor as reference points to make any headway. Unless I've missed something in a new thread?

My feeling is that there may still be something in Syriac chronicles or records to be uncovered that could unlock a more accurate chronology from Constantine to the onset of the Muslim conquests - but I haven't been able to find it yet. As Laura mentioned above - many of those so-called "Byzantine" records may have been so mistranslated and interpolated for "Carolingian" objectives as to lose their original context. The original meanings may not be accessible to anyone who can't ready Syriac and has the ability to spend the next 20 years digging through monasteries in Syria or Lebanon. Those texts may not even exist anymore.

As the C's mentioned, the Vesuvius eruption was a major event for Rome and the city itself may not have survived much after that. The accepted timeline shows a major historical marker fire under Nero, followed by his suicide and the end of the Claudian/Julian line. This is followed by a Civil War where the Flavians come out on top. As noted in FPTM Vespasian is playing some role in the destruction of Jerusalem as well as Mark's description of the Son of Man. I think this is key. There seems to be some reference to the crisis point related to some religious construction of Vespasian in this role either during or slightly after.

Regardless of the actual amount of years between Augustus and Vespasian - there does seem to be a direct line of snowballing religious confrontation, natural disasters and the degradation of the Roman ruling elite in Rome. An existential crisis?

If my premise is somewhat right, then these factors could be in play (Laura's already covered most of this - but I'll rehash it to try and put it into some sort of questions - hopefully).

- The author of Mark had to be alive right before the physical destruction of the city of Rome and all the signs of its imminent doom are accelerating. The Temple in Jerusalem is destroyed and the Jewish War caused huge problems. Messianic "rhetoric" wars are everywhere with the natural disasters, ponerological politics and "failed" gods continuing to destabilize Rome. If I read Mark correctly, the gospel implies Rome the City is still the center of civil life? Not Constantinople?

- If as the C's say, Paul played a role in helping craft Mark's Gospel based on a woman author's passion play of Caesar's assassination and ascension, then Paul would have had to be alive shortly before the authorship of Mark. As the C's have also mentioned that Paul was the inspiration for much of the "wandering, peaceful (but fiery) preacher" aspect of Jesus in the Gospels, then he was a well-known figure with decades of traveling and teaching throughout the empire. Part of the "Popular Pericope" that makes up Mark's message may be more inspired by Paul's "famously known" role at the time (at least to those who knew of him).

- How long after Vespasian's reign/or the events attributed to his reign does the city of Rome last? My guess would be none - as he reportedly dies the same year of Veusvius' eruption. Or the last and most deadly one.

- Chaos ensues and warring regional Generals (replaying the previous Civil Wars) each claim to be emperors and this is where the time line becomes horizontally concurrent for some period of time. The empire is still rich so coins and biographies can still be created.

- So the Carolingian translators have to connect their Medieval Christian Conception of history in direct timelines to fit their needs hundreds of years later. But as Laura showed in FPTM at Mark's time - there isn't one Christianity. There may be one dominant form of it in Justinian's court but at the end of Rome the city (which doesn't mean the empire's done. If New York or Washington ends - the USA continues for a while with everyone fighting over the remnants) Christianity isn't established as a single universal religion. Mark (based on Paul) is attempting to solidify universality to stave of complete destruction.

- But it happens anyway. Rome is gone. What if Mark's warnings in his gospel and Paul's teachings are perceived as being the closest thing to the right explanation for such a tragic event as the loss of the eternal city? Possibly the physical destruction of Rome is the catalyst for the first impetus to create a universal Orthodoxy? The question then arises, why is it so erased from the records of succeeding decades in Constantinople (Nova Roma)? Was the message removed by the Carolingians? Are all the barbarian occupations and sacking of Rome in the late empire just political "blamings" of later enemies of the Byzantines/Justinian? Goths, Visgoths, Lombards etc? Justinian would be capapble of that IMO.

Or if City of God by St Augustine is pre-Justinian, then maybe it was just a given that everyone knew Rome was destoryed and there was no reason to recount it? We're at this point as Christians because "you know why" I don't have to say it. The Nature of what we're fighting against has already manifested...

- The second major issue arises with who is this Constantine or multiple Constantines? The Constantine Emporer is born in Dacia in the east. Then proclaimed emperor in Northern Britain? He marches his army back to Byzantium, miraculously converts to (or decriminalizes) Christianity and builds a miraculous city called New Rome? 100 years later another Constantine (III) arises in Britain and is again crowned co-emporer. But here's almost no records of him? What's going on? All these ineffective leaders for a century in a dying empire plagued by Civil War and some general in the boonies of Yorkshire is now emporer and the creator of a second Rome?

- Following Constantine the rest of these emperors get more and more shadowy and only exist from sketchy medieval sources (less coins, less buildings) until Justinian arises out of chaos to create the last shining vision of Rome - which Procopius completely turns on its head in, Secret History.

From Laura's post above:

So, we have a story about some monks heading for the hills of England in 597 on a "Gregorian Mission" to convert the Anglo Saxons following which, we supposedly have some Greek monkly types with high-sounding titles traveling up there with a bunch of books. Let's see if there is a connection.

I'll give the Carolingians credit for the hubris or at least a sense of humour. Pope Gregory I could not have existed in 597 in Rome (It was uninhabited according to stratigraphy). But the Gregory (of Tours) who established the Carolingian conception of Papacy definitely could have traveled to England in the late 8th or early 9th century. He too becomes the first missionary to the Merovingians and the "Father of French History" just a few decades after Justinian's collapse and a plague that wipes out possibley 90% of Europe.

It was after a discussion on the missing 460 years thread where I said that I thought Gildas' "Ruin of Britain" was a forgery transported back in time due to its "theological concerns" that read medieval to me. I'm of the opposite opinion now. Gildas is 6th century. What he's writing about is the complete collpase of post-Roman Britain. He's remained such an authority that this other Constantine (the second one) he describes leaving Britain and its subsequent invasion by Saxons, is probably the same Constantine that probably founded Constantinople. Unfortunately for the Carolingians, his text survived and had to be reconciled somehow due to his reputation. Hence the doublets and shadowy late history of the empire.

Gildas writes of a complete "ruin" - the end of the ancient world. Saxons aren't a few years away from conversion by Augustine and the Franks. Christian leaders of Britain have failed. But these are the areas that had been influenced by Roman Christianity. Most of Brittania is still pagan - or reverting to it. I don't think the events he's describing could be anything but a series of catastrophic events marking the end of the ancient world order in Britain.

As Laura wrote above, there was an army of monks operatives spreading out all over Europe searching out manuscripts and re-creating their version of Christianity. It just wasn't in the 6th century. It was in the medieval explosion of "new" theology and political consolidation under Charles the Bald - or at least 50 years on either side of his reign in the 9th century.