Historical Events Database - History

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Go ahead and enter it and note what you have written above. Put it under "Archaeological" and see what you can find on that to include as sources.

 

[Palinurus]

Re: Historical Events Database

Okay, Laura. I'll see what I can do.

Currently I'm trying to find additional scientific sources to substantiate this earthquake and I have already found several for which I created a separate folder to re-examine later. A few others seem promising as well -- including a fairly recent (2012) dissertation from the University of California (_http://escholarship.org/uc/item/9rv3v8tc#page-1).

It will take some time to condense all of it into a suitable database entry but when I'm done I'll report the entry number here for necessary further examination. So stay tuned... ;)

 

[Palinurus]

Re: Historical Events Database

My searches have been fruitful to the point that I managed to get completely lost in conflicting and contradicting details.

In Josephus's Antiquities of the Jews Book IX, Chapter X, § 4 (Loeb 9, 222-227) we read (bold, mine):

222 4. While Uzziah was in this state, and making preparation [for futurity], he was corrupted in his mind by pride, and became insolent, and this on account of that abundance which he had of things that will soon perish, and despised that power which is of eternal duration (which consisted in piety towards God, and in the observation of the laws); 223 so he fell by occasion of the good success of his affairs, and was carried headlong into those sins of his father, which the splendor of that prosperity he enjoyed, and the glorious actions he had done, led him into, while he was not able to govern himself well about them. Accordingly, when a remarkable day was come, and a general festival was to be celebrated, he put on the holy garment, and went into the temple to offer incense to God upon the golden altar, 224 which he was prohibited to do by Azariah the high priest, who had fourscore priests with him, and who told him that it was not lawful for him to offer sacrifice, and that “none besides the posterity of Aaron were permitted so to do.” And when they cried out that he must go out of the temple, and not transgress against God, he was wroth at them, and threatened to kill them, unless they would hold their peace. 225 In the mean time a great earthquake shook the ground and a rent was made in the temple, and the bright rays of the sun shone through it, and fell upon the king’s face, insomuch that the leprosy seized upon him immediately. And before the city, at a place called Eroge, half the mountain broke off from the rest on the west, and rolled itself four furlongs, and stood still at the east mountain, till the roads, as well as the king’s gardens, were spoiled by the obstruction. 226 Now, as soon as the priests saw that the king’s face was infected with the leprosy, they told him of the calamity he was under, and commanded that he should go out of the city as a polluted person. Hereupon he was so confounded at the sad distemper, and sensible that he was not at liberty to contradict, that he did as he was commanded, and underwent this miserable and terrible punishment for an intention beyond what befitted a man to have, and for that impiety against God which was implied therein. 227 So he abode out of the city for some time, and lived a private life, while his son Jotham took the government; after which he died with grief and anxiety at what had happened to him, when he had lived sixty-eight years, and reigned of them fifty-two; and was buried by himself in his own gardens.

About this earthquake Wikipedia has this to say on its Uzziah page (bold, mine):

The earthquake in the days of Uzziah

A major earthquake is referred to in the book of the prophet Amos. Amos dated his prophecy to "two years before the earthquake, when Uzziah was king of Judah and Jeroboam son of Jehoash was king of Israel" (Amos 1:1, NIV). Over 200 years later, the prophet Zechariah predicted a future earthquake from which the people would flee as they fled in the days of Uzziah (Zechariah 14:5). Geologists believe they have found evidence of this major earthquake in sites throughout Israel and Jordan.[5] The geologists write:

Masonry walls best display the earthquake, especially walls with broken ashlars, walls with displaced rows of stones, walls still standing but leaning or bowed, and walls collapsed with large sections still lying course-on-course. Debris at six sites (Hazor, Deir 'Alla, Gezer, Lachish, Tell Judeideh, and 'En Haseva) is tightly confined stratigraphically to the middle of the eighth century B.C., with dating errors of ~30 years.…The earthquake was at least magnitude 7.8, but likely was 8.2…This severe geologic disaster has been linked historically to a speech delivered at the city of Bethel by a shepherd-farmer named Amos of Tekoa."[5]

An exact date for this earthquake would be of considerable interest to archaeologists and historians, because it would allow a synchronization of the earthquake at all the sites affected by it in Israel, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. Currently, the stratigraphic evidence at Gezer dates the earthquake at 760 BC, plus or minus 25 years,[5] while Yadin and Finkelstein date the earthquake level at Hazor to 760 BC based on stratigraphic analysis of the destruction debris.[6] Similarly, Ussishkin dated the "sudden destruction" level at Lachish to approximately 760 BC.[7]

Amos says that the earthquake was in the days of Uzziah king of Judah and Jeroboam (II), son of Jehoash king of Israel. The reference to Jeroboam II is helpful in restricting the date of Amos' vision, more so than the reference to Uzziah's long reign of 52 years. According to Thiele's widely accepted chronology, Jeroboam II began a coregency with his father in 793/792, became sole regent in 782/781, and died in late summer or the fall of 753 BC.[2] Assuming that the prophecy took place after Uzziah became sole regent in 768/767, Amos' prophecy can be dated to some time after that and some time before Jeroboam's death in 753 BC, with the earthquake two years after that. These dates are consistent with the dates given by the archaeologists above for the earthquake. They are inconsistent with the tradition, found in Josephus and the Talmud but not in the Bible, that the earthquake occurred when Uzziah entered the Temple to offer incense, accepting that the beginning of the Uzziah/Jotham coregency began sometime in the six-month period after Nisan 1 of 750 BC (see the Jotham article).

The Jotham article contains an elaboration on the chronology problems with all these overlapping kings in Judah and Israel to which is repeatedly referred on other pages, mostly in a condensed form.

So it now appears that Josephus does mention the Amos earthquake after all but fails to date it properly -- which in itself is not that unusual.

My proposition would be to make two separate but cross referenced entries into the database. The first one with the above quote of Josephus (or part of it) with the above Wiki comment in the notes section, and the other with the Wiki quote from Jeroboam II as mentioned previously with all the relevant scientific material I've found, noted down in the notes section of that entry.

Would this be an acceptable way forward to sort out this mess?

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Re: Historical Events Database

Trying to see if I can make anything fit using the latest C's data and Halley. First of all, in the table you originally posted, Laura, I don't think you got the last column right (Retro-calc. Based on mod. Obsv.). Looks like you used an even 75 years for Halley's orbit, but JPL lists the orbit as 75.32 years, which will add up the further back in time you go (_http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi?sstr=1P). They include a list of estimated perihelia years there too:

1760.10
1684.80
1609.50
1534.20
1458.90
1383.50
1308.20
1232.90
1157.60
1082.30
1007.00
931.60
856.30
781.00
705.70
630.40
555.10
479.70
404.40
329.10
253.80
178.50
103.20
-47.50
-122.80
-198.10

These years make for even greater discrepancies between observed and calculated appearances (e.g., 35 years' difference between the observed 163 BC and projected 198 BC, as opposed to 22 in the excel doc). So far, nothing really interesting to report. Just wanted to point out the above.

EDIT: Just found this paper _http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1982JBAA...92..209B/0000212.000.html -- mkrnhr, could you take a look?

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Re: Historical Events Database

http://cosmictusk.com/india-and-japan-554-ad-comet/
India and Japan independently report 554 AD comet

A POSSIBLE AD552 COMET SIGHTING IN JAPAN AND ITS PARALLELS WITH COMETARY PHENOMENA ASSOCIATED WITH THE SARASVATI RIVER OF ANCIENT INDIA.
Robert A. Juhl, Independent researcher, Penang, Malaysia, E-mail: AD552@mac.com; and RN Iyengar, Department of Civil Engineering, Indian Institute of Science, E-mail: rni@civil.iisc.ernet.in.

Introduction:
The Enoshima Engi (EE) was written in AD1047 by the Japanese monk Kokei. The narrative mentions spectacular phenomena that took place in the early summer of AD552, including dark clouds covering the sea, earthquakes, the appearance of a bright goddess (Benzaiten/Sarasvati) above the clouds, boulders falling from the sky, lightning-bolts, rocks and sand spurting up from the sea, flames on the water, the emergence of an island, and the descent of the goddess onto the island. In 2003 Juhl translated and studied parts of the EE [1]. The Prabhasa-ksetra-mahatmya book (PK) of the Skanda-purana contains references to similar phenomena associated with the Sarasvati River. In 2004 Iyengar published an article on comet-related phenomena in the PK [2].

Discussion:
Following is a list of possible comet-related parallels in the PK. All parallels with the EE listed below are from Juhl [1]. The PK mentions objects making holes in the ground in association with a smoky demon [3]. The EE parallel is the "dark clouds covering the sea" and "great boulders descending from above the clouds". In one episode, the Sarasvati River, carrying fire, enters the ocean. Iyengar translates: "With fire in his hand, the ocean lit up... Due to the gases emanating from the sea, the waters overflowed…" [4] The EE parallel is the description "flames flickered amidst the white-tipped waves". The level of the sea apparently rose and dropped. Iyengar writes: "… after the fire started burning, initially the sea exceeded in its boundaries but later the coast started receding… In the 346th chapter, there is reference to large-scale loss of life associated most probably with a … tsunami" [5]. The EE parallel is the loss of life as the dragon (the floodwaters) invaded the villages. The PK has a chapter entitled Sarasvati-avatara-mahima-varnanam, meaning "description of the purpose of the avatara (de-scent) of Sarasvati" [6]. The EE parallel is the descent of Benzaiten from the sky. Iyengar comments on a related story: "The further verses indicate that a metallic object eventually landed on earth, leading to earthquakes…" [7]. The EE parallel is the earthquakes before the descent of the goddess.

Conclusions:
Most of the phenomena described in the EE are similar to phenomena in the PK. However, they are not copies, only similar. The presence of similar phenomena in unrelated In-dian and Japanese records suggest that the phenomena actually did take place substantially as described. A fuller account of the paral-lels is on the Internet [8]. The phenomena may be comet/meteor related and deserve further investigation.

References
: [1] Juhl, 2003. http://www2.gol.com/users/terukoj/ TranslationSeg-2.html and http://www2.gol.com/users/bartraj/goddess index-1.html. [2] RN Iyengar. Profile of a Natural Disaster in Ancient Sanskrit Literature, Indian Journal of History of Science, 39, 1, 11-49, 2004, available as pdf at http://civil.iisc.ernet.in/~rni/ancientdisaster.pdf. [3] Iyengar. 2004, pg 7. [4] Iyengar. 2004, pg 11. [5] Iyengar. 2004, pgs 11 and 16. [6] Iyengar. 2004, pg 16. [7] Iyengar. 2004, pg 22. [8] Juhl.
Parallels between the Celestial and Terrestrial Phenomena at Enoshima and Similar Phenomena Associated with the Sarasvati River of Ancient India, http://www2.gol.com/users/bartraj/ParallelsWSarasvatiR.html

 

[Dirgni]

Re: Historical Events Database

We have got about 400-500 years added to about 1500 years (and some removed) (Session 12 July 2014: A: 1635. {Difference of 379 years}"). This makes about 20 to 25 years added per century. So we have about a fifth to a quarter of "history" "added". That's a huge lot. There are about 20 to 30 years added per century with maybe a trend of more in the earlier years and less in the later time. This is we assume that it would be difficult to add (much) additional years in the last about 500 years (more and more non PTB aka normal persons could read and write and did so).

In western "chronicles" (6th to 10th century) I often saw comets mentioned with something like "A comet appeared", only. Kronk and others did a really great job but we cannot rely on western sources when it comes to identify Halley in them IMHO. So western sources marked with Halley could be not connected to Halley at all. Some of the eastern sources mention a lot of details especially for Halley.

Just me thinking loud :/

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

My searches have been fruitful to the point that I managed to get completely lost in conflicting and contradicting details.

In Josephus's Antiquities of the Jews Book IX, Chapter X, § 4 (Loeb 9, 222-227) we read (bold, mine):

225 In the mean time a great earthquake shook the ground and a rent was made in the temple, and the bright rays of the sun shone through it, and fell upon the king’s face, insomuch that the leprosy seized upon him immediately. And before the city, at a place called Eroge, half the mountain broke off from the rest on the west, and rolled itself four furlongs, and stood still at the east mountain, till the roads, as well as the king’s gardens, were spoiled by the obstruction.

I'm beginning to think that we ought not to include anything from Josephus at all.

That earthquake description sounds very similar to two other earthquakes - one of them I wrote about some pages back that was recorded in Pliny and I had to dig for the details. The other is the great Beirut earthquake of 551. That strikes me as odd.

Theophanes: A large and terrible earthquake
took place in the territories of Palestine, Arabia,
Mesopotamia, Syria and Pheonicia. Tyre, Sidon,
Beirut, Tripoli and Byblus suffered much damage
and many thousands of people were killed. Apart
of the mountain named Lithoprosopus fell down
forming a harbor in Botro, the sea went back for
1000 feet and many ships sunk.

Was Theophanes borrowing the "falling mountain" from Josephus or the other story from Pliny?

Have you looked at this:
http://www.earth-prints.org/bitstream/2122/908/1/01Sbeinati.pdf

 

[Zadig]

Re: Historical Events Database

That earthquake description sounds very similar to two other earthquakes - one of them I wrote about some pages back that was recorded in Pliny and I had to dig for the details. The other is the great Beirut earthquake of 551. That strikes me as odd.

Was Theophanes borrowing the "falling mountain" from Josephus or the other story from Pliny?

So on this topic, what’s your opinion about the tsunami in Greece reported by Procopius in 551, and the fact that Agathias dates the Beirut earthquake after the 554 Constantinople earthquake and adds a seismic sea wave hitting the Island of Cos, not Beirut?

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

That earthquake description sounds very similar to two other earthquakes - one of them I wrote about some pages back that was recorded in Pliny and I had to dig for the details. The other is the great Beirut earthquake of 551. That strikes me as odd.

Was Theophanes borrowing the "falling mountain" from Josephus or the other story from Pliny?

So on this topic, what’s your opinion about the tsunami in Greece reported by Procopius in 551, and the fact that Agathias dates the Beirut earthquake after the 554 Constantinople earthquake and adds a seismic sea wave hitting the Island of Cos, not Beirut?

This is where it becomes important to read books/papers about the historians and try to figure out what was going on.

Wikipedia has this to say about Agathias:

Agathias was a native of Myrina (Mysia). His father was Memnonius. His mother was presumably Pericleia. A brother of Agathias is mentioned in primary sources, but his name has not survived. Their probable sister Eugenia is known by name. The Suda clarifies that Agathias was active in the reign of the Roman emperor Justinian I, mentioning him as a contemporary of Paul the Silentiary, Macedonius of Thessalonica and Tribonian.[1]

Agathias mentions being present in Alexandria as a law student at the time when an earthquake destroyed Berytus (Beirut).[1] The law school of Berytus had been recognized as one of the three official law schools of the empire (533). Within a few years, as the result of the disastrous earthquake of 551,[2][3][4] the students were transferred to Sidon.[5] The dating of the event to 551: as a law student, Agathias could be in his early twenties, which would place his birth to c. 530.[1]

He mentions leaving Alexandria for Constantinople shortly following the earthquake. Agathias visited the island of Cos, where "he witnessed the devastation caused by the earthquake". At the fourth year of his legal studies, Agathias and fellow students Aemilianus, John and Rufinus are mentioned making a joint offering to Michael the Archangel at Sosthenium, where they prayed for a "prosperous future".[1]

Martindale, John R.; Jones, A.H.M.; Morris, John (1992), The Prosopography of the Later Roman Empire, Volume III: AD 527–641, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-20160-8

I would also try to get Kaldellis' articles:

A. Kaldellis, 'Things are not what they are: Agathias Mythistoricus and the last laugh of Classical', in Classical Quarterly, 53 (2003) pp 295–300.

A. Kaldellis, 'The Historical and Religious Views of Agathias: A Reinterpretation', in Byzantion. Revue internationale, 69 (1999) pp 206–252.

A. Kaldellis, 'Agathias on history and poetry', in Greek, Roman and Byzantine Studies, 38 (1997), pp 295–306

Perhaps Oxajil can grab those?

 

[Palinurus]

Re: Historical Events Database

I'm beginning to think that we ought not to include anything from Josephus at all.

I'm sorry Laura for not waiting long enough until I got your reply. I just finished making the cross referenced double entries I previously proposed. They have gotten the numbers #2412 (Jeroboam II plus scientific evidence) and #2413 (Josephus quote plus Wiki commentary). Please take a look at the evidence in the notes section of #2412.

That earthquake description sounds very similar to two other earthquakes - one of them I wrote about some pages back that was recorded in Pliny and I had to dig for the details. The other is the great Beirut earthquake of 551. That strikes me as odd.

<snip>

Was Theophanes borrowing the "falling mountain" from Josephus or the other story from Pliny?

I wouldn't know, really. The only thing I can say is, that the Amos earthquake as it is usually called, probably happened ca. 760 BC according to the archaeological evidence from several digs done by different archaeologists at various sites.

Have you looked at this:
http://www.earth-prints.org/bitstream/2122/908/1/01Sbeinati.pdf

No I haven't, but thanks for sharing it.

I glanced through it just now but couldn't find the Amos earthquake at first sight. I think I'll need to use the Adobe search function later to get hold of it.
If it's in there somewhere I'm sure it will pop up eventually.

EDIT: minor grammar

 

[Palinurus]

Re: Historical Events Database

Have you looked at this:
http://www.earth-prints.org/bitstream/2122/908/1/01Sbeinati.pdf

No I haven't, but thanks for sharing it.

I glanced through it just now but couldn't find the Amos earthquake at first sight. I think I'll need to use the Adobe search function later to get hold of it.
If it's in there somewhere I'm sure it will pop up eventually.

After searching the PDF file, I'm certain the Amos earthquake of ca. 760 BC isn't mentioned. Table II (PDF page 60; original page #406) which gives the complete display, jumps from ca. 1365 BC (number one entry) straight onto 590 BC (number two entry) with nothing in between.

EDIT: minor layout

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Maybe (likely) the "Amos earthquake" didn't happen because Amos didn't exist, neither did Israel.

 

[Oxajil]

Re: Historical Events Database

Martindale, John R.; Jones, A.H.M.; Morris, John (1992), The Prosopography of the Later Roman Empire, Volume III: AD 527–641, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-20160-8

If you can't find this book Zadig, my library has it, though I'll be able to get it in about two weeks!

I would also try to get Kaldellis' articles:

A. Kaldellis, 'Things are not what they are: Agathias Mythistoricus and the last laugh of Classical', in Classical Quarterly, 53 (2003) pp 295–300.

A. Kaldellis, 'The Historical and Religious Views of Agathias: A Reinterpretation', in Byzantion. Revue internationale, 69 (1999) pp 206–252.

A. Kaldellis, 'Agathias on history and poetry', in Greek, Roman and Byzantine Studies, 38 (1997), pp 295–306

Perhaps Oxajil can grab those?

Did some digging and I got the first and third one (see attachments). With regard to the second one, unfortunately, not all editions of the journal ''Byzantion, Revue Internationale des Études Byzantines" is uploaded online. And my library only has the journal's editions from 1877-1938, so not the 1999 one. :( Hopefully your library will have it Zadig?

 

[Palinurus]

Re: Historical Events Database

Maybe (likely) the "Amos earthquake" didn't happen because Amos didn't exist, neither did Israel.

Laura, I don't know yet.

One of the sources I found, gives ample attention to all pro's and con's of the Amos earthquake -- I only just now discovered. At first, I had only a cursory glance through its table of contents to determine whether that quake was mentioned at all, but now that I've downloaded it for further inspection this 2012 dissertation could turn out to be a decisive source for a yes or no answer. The author makes an impression of thoroughness, at least in my unqualified eyes, but I find his title a bit misleading since he also discusses some of the archaeological evidence, it appears.

Title: Terra Terror: An Interdisciplinary Study of Earthquakes in
Ancient Near Eastern Texts and the Hebrew Bible
Author: Ryan Nathaniel Roberts

Here is the link: http://escholarship.org/uc/item/9rv3v8tc Click on Download PDF in the header. It's a 333 page file, about 8,5 Mb.

Concerning Josephus' peculiar way of writing history, I also just found a footnote there on page 18 (PDF, 39) with a mention of interest, of which I had no clue yet:

48 On evaluating Josephus as a source, see Making History: Josephus and Historical Method (ed. Z. Rodgers; Leiden: Brill, 2007).

Questions: should I pause my reading of Antiquities of the Jews in favor of getting to the bottom of this specific earthquake; should I delay that until after my completion of all of Josephus's works; should some one else take over this particular earthquake and its evidence; or can we leave it to rest for the time being and decide later on what to do about it?

Or whatever else you might have in mind or can come up with...

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database


Well, don't get bogged down with it if you can't find a resolution within a few days. You see what happens?! Same thing with that darn falling mountain I found in Pliny. Fortunately, I was able to resolve it within a couple of days, including dating it.

I think that the only thing we will get from Josephus is a load of BS.