Historical Events Database - History

[Palinurus]

Re: Historical Events Database

We have --among other things-- two important dates from the above source:

* Lunar eclipse on January 10, 1 BCE

* Death of Herod the Great on January 28, 1 BCE

Given the importance it would be vital to find at least one other source of corroboration, under the auspice of the ancient adage: Testis unus, testis nullus -- which means: One witness/testimony equals no witness/testimony at all.

I've managed to find one: Scientific Approach to an Absolute Chronology Through Synchronisms Dated by Astronomy a website maintained by Gerard Gertoux. He is French and since March 10, 2009 he prepares a thesis on these subjects:

PhD candidate in Archaeology and History of Ancient Worlds (thesis: scientific approach to an absolute chronology through synchronism's dated by astronomy)

His website contains numerous PDF files with all sorts of chronological data, many if not most of them in English, and certainly worth a visit to have a look into those, I think.


His dates are:

* Lunar eclipse on January 9, 1 BCE

* Death of Herod the Great on January 26, 1 BCE

As the discrepancies amount to a mere one day and two days respectively, I would hazard the remark that this is close enough for horseshoes (to quote a well known saying).

Sources:

_http://www.chronosynchro.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Dating-the-death-of-Herod-1.pdf

_http://www.chronosynchro.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Dating-the-census-of-Quirinius.pdf


This second PDF file contains two other treatises which are also available separately:

_http://www.chronosynchro.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Dating-the-war-of-Varus.pdf

_http://www.chronosynchro.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Dating-the-birth-of-Jesus.pdf


As for the birth of Jesus, the discrepancy between these two sources is much larger:

Martin gives September 11, 3 BCE whereas Gertoux comes up with September 29, 2 BCE -- a whole year later.

As this has no direct bearing on the Historical Database project, I have refrained from finding out exactly why this is -- but others could easily research this matter deeper if so inclined.

As far as the database itself is concerned, I propose to enter Josephus's mention of the lunar eclipse into it with both dates stated, accompanied with a note referencing the two sources exposed in these posts. That should suffice, I presume.

 

[ka]

Re: Historical Events Database

Hi, Palinurus:
Thanks for all your great researching and reporting.

It has been like several Christmas mornings in a row this week, to find all the great stuff posted this week on the Forum about questions I've been asking all my life!

It would seem that your team is zeroing in on some really BIG stuff.

Thanks, again!

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

As far as the database itself is concerned, I propose to enter Josephus's mention of the lunar eclipse into it with both dates stated, accompanied with a note referencing the two sources exposed in these posts. That should suffice, I presume.

Yeah. Just enter it under the correct date and put a note about how that was arrived at.

 

[Palinurus]

Re: Historical Events Database

Hi, Palinurus:
Thanks for all your great researching and reporting.

It has been like several Christmas mornings in a row this week, to find all the great stuff posted this week on the Forum about questions I've been asking all my life!

It would seem that your team is zeroing in on some really BIG stuff.

Thanks, again!

Those upsurges can really be overwhelming at times, I know. Take ample opportunity to digest it all -- slowly if possible or repeatedly if otherwise.

Maybe these two topics/posts could help you in doing so:

To grow a soul, one must study events of the past

Gurdjieff's 5 Being Strivings, notably this one for instance.

Take care and please accept all my best!

 

[Palinurus]

Re: Historical Events Database

As far as the database itself is concerned, I propose to enter Josephus's mention of the lunar eclipse into it with both dates stated, accompanied with a note referencing the two sources exposed in these posts. That should suffice, I presume.

Yeah. Just enter it under the correct date and put a note about how that was arrived at.

Okay Laura, done: entry ID 3084.

 

[Palinurus]

Re: Historical Events Database

While still digging for more substantiation to these new dates, I found the following remark here: _http://project-ingrafting.com/Jesus_of_Nazareth_files/Bios_and_Events/2/jn2-web.pdf

2 BC -- Most probable reason for census: Pending celebration of Caesar Augustus's 25th year and Rome's 750th year. Whole empire was to declare Augustus "Father of the Country"

And while I'm at it once more, I really would like to add two personal observations which occurred to me lately reading around all this stuff -- just some thoughts:

* Herod the Great was a king who in every imaginable way, shape or form, proved to be the exact opposite and counterpart of the fabled king Solomon. So very much so, that one cannot escape the subjective impression that king Solomon might have been conjured up as some sort of psychological compensation/counterweight for the real life and times of king Herod. A poignant case in point --maybe-- being his harem: Herod had nine (9) wives, and Solomon had about nine hundred (900) allegedly, if I recall correctly.

* What happened in Palestine after the death of Herod the Great displays quite a few similarities --albeit in slow motion (from 1 BCE to 73 CE)-- to what we saw happening in real time recently with Yugoslavia after the death of Josip Broz (Tito) -- including ethnic cleansing, fractioning of territories and establishing puppet regimes, or devising non viable territorial entities like Kosovo, for instance. Just to try giving all this ancient ado some tangible and recognizable modern perspective. FWIW. ;)

 

[ka]

Re: Historical Events Database

Greetings, Palinurus

Take ample opportunity to digest it all -- slowly if possible or repeatedly if otherwise. . . . Maybe these two topics/posts could help you in doing so:

To grow a soul, one must study events of the past

Gurdjieff's 5 Being Strivings, notably this one for instance.

Take care . . .

I’m not confidant I’m on the same page you are, but upon reviewing the material you linked to, this is where my attention rested:

We should also be producing a quality of energy which would nourish and support some higher purpose. This would be "paying for our arising". If we are able to do this, then we can participate consciously in the maintaining cosmic equilibrium. . . . In G's view, wars or "periods of reciprocal destruction" arise out of the requirement to fulfill energetic requirements. We are unable to pay for our arising consciously, so we pay in a different traumatic way

That reminded of passages posted last month in the Julius Caesar was Jesus thread:

The Culture in Caesa[/u]r, vol. II, by Giorgio Monamente]“RELIGIOUS-HISTORIC REFLECTIONS ABOUT THE GOD'S JOB AND ITS OWN RISKS”
SUMMARY: The aim of the present paper is to explore the `meaning' of the sacrificial, ritual aspects of Julius Caesar's violent death according to the official, historical and mythical records of the event as they can be found hidden in our written sources. Violent death, particularly through discerpsio, is the model through which mythical and/or supernatural beings succeed in founding new aspects of the cosmos, new concrete useful items, or to achieve a new status for themselves. In the Roman polytheistic system of the age of Caesar, one character of the mythical-historical past (where mythical and historical must be perceived in the peculiar Roman perspective), Romulus, the founder hero and the first king, is made a god after his violent death by identifying him with Quirinus. This is true at least according to an important variant of the tradition.

The myth, the report of Caesar's death as a true divine sacrifice, points to a conscious or even unconscious utilization of a well known ancient mythical string by the cultural media in Caesar's age. According to this string, kingship - considered in the aspect of an overwhelming, transhuman power in search of human approval - links humanity, or better a restricted selection of it, to divinity in a way that needs justification and even expiation through death. The most conspicuous example is obviously the Egyptian dead god Osiris who is so closely related to the institution of Egyptian kingship and the connected doctrine of individual immortality. In Caesar's age the struggle for the acquisition of an individual special status, that is a `divine' status (a common target not only for the new post-Alexander monarchies but also for the well-to-do Mediterranean élites through the whole Hellenistic age), became common as a political challenge in Rome. Caesar's death brought to the public as a divine sacrifice - the sacrifice of Romulus Quirinus - opens officially the Roman Imperial age as the first serious attempt of founding an imposed ecumenical government which turned on the human pivot of an emperor - Augustus and successors - whose destiny was to be a divus, a god through/after death.

We are presently going ever deeper into a "period of reciprocal destruction," and I suppose we must be aware that we are called on to BE as much as possible, and make super-efforts. I've got a stack of books on the context of early Christianity yet to burn through--hope that counts.

It also occurs to me that, although I personally am enormously exhilarated to get a disenchanted view of the sausage-making process that produced the mythic basis of my civilization, it may not be a great idea to take up the sharp knives and shred it in public. I might not like the consequences.

Your thoughts on Solomon are interesting.

I’ve been reading things lately that make me think the figure of Solomon functions as a male version of Sophia, too.

 

[Dirgni]

Re: Historical Events Database

Lately Someone I know very well made a remark that about 3 centuries were missing in history. I asked when and where and he answered "in the third and fourth and fifth century" (AD) and "everywhere here" (Southern Bavaria). He mentioned that during that time nearly no artefacts were found here. And after this time without history there were the Agilolfings, he mentioned. Agilolfings were from about 550 until 788 AD; so they emerged after the fall of the Roman Empire. He is very interested in local history for decades and he is a specialist for some very special topics concerning streets and incorporations of surrounding towns to Munich. I think he knows what he is talking about.

Not too far from where he lives there was an old Roman road, the remains of an old Roman estate and a St. Lorenz (Laurentius) church. Laurentius churches were never far from Roman roads and the same applied to Roman settlements in Bavaria. Most parts of the Roman road was still used for transporting salt from Salzburg region in the Middle Ages and called salt road (Salzstraße). So we have 3 centuries supposedly without or very few history and artefacts but the old Roman road was still used in the Middle Ages. So it was continuously used as otherwise the remains of the surrounding forests would have taken care that it was covered up fast.

There is an article in German SOTT describing that a Roman graveyard (including a 2,5 m tombstone, some coins and shards) was found in 2012 in Augsburg under a 3 Meter pebble layer. It mentions that this 3 Meter layer was from ONE flood. Living here in Southern Bavaria means I know something about the rivers in the Bavarian Prealps. They tended to have some major floods in the past which also removed bridges. But ONE flood producing 3 meters of pebbles over some area is a really exceptional event IMO. Even a couple of floods piling up would be remarkable IMO. Regensburg was mentioned in Fredegar but Augsburg was not. I remember Regensburg was mentioned in the Carolingian chronicles I read; but I do not remember that Augsburg was mentioned. Both places already existed as important places during Roman times (Augsburg castra founded 15 BC/made city in 121 AD, Regensburg castra founded near an already existing settlement in 79 AD/ 179AD ). According to Wikipedia Augsburg returned in the late Early Middles Ages into history after some "uneventful centuries"(?)

What is interesting of the region, which is now Southern Bavaria, is that it was quite an outback region during the centuries. So there was maybe no need for chroniclers to invent a history for it for certain times. So when there are gaps in Bavarian history this could indicate added history during this time.

Just some thoughts, which needs more facts.

 

[Dirgni]

Re: Historical Events Database

Some other speculations:

I was never able to fill in the gap of missing "Huns/Avar Events" in the Historical Events Database. Between 630 AD and 894 AD there is only one "Huns event" mentioned in 790/791 AD. Between 607 and 630 AD there were 4 "Huns/Avars" events; the same applies to 894 to 901 AD. I still assume that "Huns/Avars" could be Halley of another name.

When checking for Halley I found that in 837 AD Halley in mentioned only in European sources but is missing in Chinese Sources. This falls into the gap of the missing "Huns/Avar Events".

What is also falling into the gap is the mission of what is now Southern Germany by missionaries coming from the British Isles/Ireland / Scotland. Gallus and Columbanus missioned region around See of Constance around 610 AD. Bonifatius missioned Bavaria from 738 AD. Why on earth was this region missioned from the British Isles and not from Italy/France? Hint?

Fredegar and some hagiographies belong to the very few "sources" filling in the time between the fall of the Roman Empire and Charlemagne. Fredegar is considered quite unreliable by historians. Hagiographies mostly contain Christian propaganda but nothing for the database. Some wild theory going around in my mind: Carolingian gang killing their Roman Masters aka Merovingian kings/emperors around the Fall of the Roman Empire and explaining it as succeeding the "invented (?)" Merovingian's?

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Oh, the situation just gets uglier and uglier. After a few weeks of digging determinedly into Josephus, Tacitus, Dio Cassius, I'm thinking that Josephus is another Gregory of Tours. God, I hope I live long enough to lay out all these clues!

 

[Eboard10]

Re: Historical Events Database

Oh, the situation just gets uglier and uglier. After a few weeks of digging determinedly into Josephus, Tacitus, Dio Cassius, I'm thinking that Josephus is another Gregory of Tours. God, I hope I live long enough to lay out all these clues!

Which makes one wonder how many historians of that period actually existed.

September 7th 2013

Q: (Belibaste)Caesar's comet! (L) I think they're being funny. You have to understand when people are asking questions, they're asking with assumptions, just like you are right now. (Perceval)Let's be explicit: Was there a separate individual 2000 years ago that taught spiritual truths to people that were close to Gnostic teachings, etc. around the Roman Empire/Middle Eastern area that was NOT Caesar, that was in some small way incorporated into Caesar's life?

A: Very small way, and not a teacher as you describe, but a rebel fighter against Rome.

Q: (Perceval)So the idea of Jesus People as being social critics is probably closest...

A: Yes

Q: (Ailen) And it's not somebody who went through history or is recorded in any way.

A: Some clues in Josephus, the "father" of Jesus.

So, if Josephus is the creator of Jesus and also a fictional character, does that mean that the figure of Jesus didn't come about until much later in our timeline?

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

Josephus wrote all of his surviving works after his establishment in Rome (c. AD 71) under the patronage of the Flavian Emperor Vespasian. As is common with ancient texts, however, there are no surviving extant manuscripts of Josephus' works that can be dated before the 11th century, and the oldest of these are all Greek minuscules, copied by Christian monks.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Re: Historical Events Database

Oh, the situation just gets uglier and uglier. After a few weeks of digging determinedly into Josephus, Tacitus, Dio Cassius, I'm thinking that Josephus is another Gregory of Tours. God, I hope I live long enough to lay out all these clues!

Which makes one wonder how many historians of that period actually existed.

September 7th 2013

Q: (Belibaste)Caesar's comet! (L) I think they're being funny. You have to understand when people are asking questions, they're asking with assumptions, just like you are right now. (Perceval)Let's be explicit: Was there a separate individual 2000 years ago that taught spiritual truths to people that were close to Gnostic teachings, etc. around the Roman Empire/Middle Eastern area that was NOT Caesar, that was in some small way incorporated into Caesar's life?

A: Very small way, and not a teacher as you describe, but a rebel fighter against Rome.

Q: (Perceval)So the idea of Jesus People as being social critics is probably closest...

A: Yes

Q: (Ailen) And it's not somebody who went through history or is recorded in any way.

A: Some clues in Josephus, the "father" of Jesus.

So, if Josephus is the creator of Jesus and also a fictional character, does that mean that the figure of Jesus didn't come about until much later in our timeline?

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

Josephus wrote all of his surviving works after his establishment in Rome (c. AD 71) under the patronage of the Flavian Emperor Vespasian. As is common with ancient texts, however, there are no surviving extant manuscripts of Josephus' works that can be dated before the 11th century, and the oldest of these are all Greek minuscules, copied by Christian monks.

Not necessarily. Just because an extant text doesn't exist until the 11th century doesn't mean the work itself wasn't composed many years earlier. Ancient texts were copied and recopied as originals (and copies) wore out. Unfortunately, that means it's very difficult to determine when exactly the text was written, and what possible changes and interpolations were added in previous copies. You can get some idea of who wrote what when by comparing various authors, who quotes whom and what they quote, etc., but it's very difficult to sort out with any certainty.

In the case of Josephus, the only pagan authors to mention him (Suetonius and Dio) only mention him by name and do not refer to him as a writer. Same with some of the early Church Fathers. Some other Church Fathers 'quote' his work, but do not cite Josephus (so it could be that Josephus didn't even compose those texts). Only by the time of Origen (maybe before) do Christian sources quote Josephus' works and mention his name. So the only real sources we have for Josephus are Christians with an agenda...

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Atwill thinks he has the solution and it's pretty elaborate, but he misses some big pieces of the puzzle. Unterbrink is just simply a Josephus worshiper with no discrimination at all. Heck, for that matter, most mainstream historians since the Renaissance haven't had much in the way of discrimination either. I can't believe that they read the texts with an open, critical mind, and do NOT see that a whole lot of it is questionable and big chunks are just simply ridiculous.

It's pretty certain that Josephus existed and that he wrote some things, but it's also pretty obvious that the parts of his history that are "original" to him are either 1) The Weekly World News of the Roman Empire or 2) somebody did some heavy redacting and creative inserting.

It is also pretty clear that whoever did it, either Josephus himself, or a redactor, relied on Tacitus. That is VERY problematical because Josephus is supposed to have composed his Antiquities around 93 or 94, while Tacitus composed his histories/annales in 112/113... So, you see, that creates a real problem.

Also, the section in Tacitus where it is said that Nero blamed the burning of Rome on Christians and thus began the persecutions, is an obvious interpolation and any historian who doesn't see that is deaf, dumb and blind. Dio Cassius followed Tacitus, among others, and his story about Nero and the burning of Rome and the aftermath is far more coherent and has not even a WHIFF of "Christians".

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database


I've taken my first look at the database in weeks; couple of questions.

Zadig: entry 2525: why didn't you enter each of the four eclipses in the correct year as events??? It doesn't help us to map stuff like that if you bunch four of them together that way.

 

[Zadig]

Re: Historical Events Database

Zadig: entry 2525: why didn't you enter each of the four eclipses in the correct year as events??? It doesn't help us to map stuff like that if you bunch four of them together that way.

There are too many lunar eclipses in Astronomical Diaries, I’ve summarized when several eclipses are on the same tablet.