Historical Events Database - History

[Palinurus]

Re: Historical Events Database

Okay, Laura, understood. I will leave both of these out of the database files. I just went there to look for corroborating evidence of any kind for either one or both of them, and didn't find anything even remotely related.

 

[Zadig]

Re: Historical Events Database

To the guy who did it:

-Can you put back the box: day, month and the description of the event in the box "keywords"?
-Can you give me back the power to delete entries?

 

[Mikey]

Re: Historical Events Database

All who have contributed to this project, and all who would like to help out further: Please read this post carefully!

We have collected 3385 events to date. Now, we have the possibility of making a publication from all the collected hard data. An experiment in generating a preliminary PDF shows that it would be approx. 2000 pages for a 8x10 inch book (that would be 3 or 4 volumes). Such a book would be very useful for future reference and quotations, and also I think that such an effort has seldom, if ever been made before.

Now, there are also self-made problems that stand in the way of this publication. The provided input fields have been used somewhat inconsistently, and sometimes a bit too 'creatively'. Here are just a few issues that I noticed:

* URLs have been pasted into the Volume field and Title field
* Translators, editors and page numbers have been entered into the Volume field
* Book numbers have been entered into the Page field
* The formatting of the text in the Quote field is sometimes bad (contains unedited hard hyphenation, random line breaks, headings etc.)
* The text in the Quote field sometimes contains too much irrelevant information, sometimes so little that there are incomplete sentences.
* The Keywords field has been used both for proper keywords separated with a comma, as well as summaries that read more like article titles
* Month and Day have sometimes not been entered into the proper fields, even though they are known and are referenced in the Quote field
* If quoted text has been entered into the Note field, sometimes its source has not been specified
* All kinds of other 'creative' uses of the input fields.

If we want to publish, we have to fix ALL these issues and focus on the quality instead of the quantity.

Realizing that editing over 3300 entries and networking all the issues here in the forum would be too unpractical (it would flood this thread), and looking for a solution, I created a "Publication Preview" feature in the database application itself. It shows you all the entries in chronological order, with a formatting very similar to that which could end up in the book. I have added hints to each field with a precise specification as to what goes into this field, and how, and what does not go into this field. These hints should serve as a constant reminder in case somebody forgets. All contributors can report problems for specific fields and leave comments in place. Contributors also can add a general comment to the event, can Approve it for publication (when all problems have been fixed) or Exclude it from publication (when it is not relevant enough). This way, some people can focus on proofreading and reporting problems, while the ones who created the event can focus on fixing the problems.

Now, before we begin, I'd like to ask who of the previous contributors are still willing and able to invest time and effort, at least for fixing reported problems that will be found in their own entries? This time, we'll network extensively to be very well coordinated and synchronized. We all will be under each other's review. The quality of the final result will depend on that, and I don't see how it could be done otherwise. In any event, further suggestions are welcome!

Once we have a list of people, I think I'll create a separate thread for networking about the technical aspects of working with the database application, while this thread should be reserved for questions about historical questions.

 

[Mikey]

Re: Historical Events Database

To the guy who did it:

I guess this "guy" is me!

-Can you put back the box: day, month and the description of the event in the box "keywords"?

For the first part, I suppose you meant: Could you put back the day and month for the displayed dates in the main listing table?
Answer: I forgot that, and this is now fixed.

For the last part, I suppose you meant: Could you put back the Notes field above the Keyword field?
Answer: No. The fields Quote and Notes have been moved below the form and have been made bigger, because I expected it to make editing of voluminous text easier. Also, there was another change: Because of the mixed usage of the old Keywords field (as mentioned above), I decided to move all contents into a new field called Summary. This will serve as a short heading for each event. In the input form, this Summary field is now at the top. The Keywords field is now empty for each event, and will have to be re-filled properly with proper tags for each event (details on this later).

-Can you give me back the power to delete entries?

The power has never been taken away from you. There was a bug because of the message that was displayed: "Missing action". This is now fixed.

 

[Palinurus]

Re: Historical Events Database

I'd like to ask who of the previous contributors are still willing and able to invest time and effort, at least for fixing reported problems that will be found in their own entries?

I'm available to edit my own entries.

I had a look at the Publication Preview to have an inkling of what would be required and noticed that there is no easy access to my own entries -- of which I didn't even save the entry numbers myself. You should create a search function for that in the Publication Preview which works on entry number, and/or event date, and/or user name. Otherwise, I will not be able to locate them easily since all entry access points of the Publication Preview are blank now. I tried some of them, to have a look at what they state but couldn't quite figure out in which order they are listed. It seems they are listed by dates of the events recorded and not on their entry numbers; if I got that right this makes searching manually all the more difficult as several dates do have multiple entries, as far as I recall.

I filtered the original list of entries for my user name and have the entry numbers available as well as the event dates, and I will plod along with that for the moment.

 

[Zadius Sky]

Re: Historical Events Database

Now, before we begin, I'd like to ask who of the previous contributors are still willing and able to invest time and effort, at least for fixing reported problems that will be found in their own entries? This time, we'll network extensively to be very well coordinated and synchronized. We all will be under each other's review. The quality of the final result will depend on that, and I don't see how it could be done otherwise. In any event, further suggestions are welcome!

I'm willing to edit my entries and then some.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database


Can we have a final list of all the authors we've covered? If there is a significant missing one, I'll try to kick it in there.

 

[Dirgni]

Re: Historical Events Database

Now, before we begin, I'd like to ask who of the previous contributors are still willing and able to invest time and effort, at least for fixing reported problems that will be found in their own entries? This time, we'll network extensively to be very well coordinated and synchronized. We all will be under each other's review. The quality of the final result will depend on that, and I don't see how it could be done otherwise. In any event, further suggestions are welcome!

I'm willing to edit my entries and then some.

Ditto

 

[Mikey]

Re: Historical Events Database

I had a look at the Publication Preview to have an inkling of what would be required and noticed that there is no easy access to my own entries -- of which I didn't even save the entry numbers myself. You should create a search function for that in the Publication Preview which works on entry number, and/or event date, and/or user name. Otherwise, I will not be able to locate them easily since all entry access points of the Publication Preview are blank now. I tried some of them, to have a look at what they state but couldn't quite figure out in which order they are listed. It seems they are listed by dates of the events recorded and not on their entry numbers; if I got that right this makes searching manually all the more difficult as several dates do have multiple entries, as far as I recall.

I filtered the original list of entries for my user name and have the entry numbers available as well as the event dates, and I will plod along with that for the moment.

Ok, good suggestion. I'll be adapting the database application according to our needs at every step, so don't hesitate making lots of suggestions about the usability!

Can we have a final list of all the authors we've covered? If there is a significant missing one, I'll try to kick it in there.

Zadius Sky has made a list this April, it is probably out of date: https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,33985.msg484074.html#msg484074

Directly from the database:

Here are all authors, alphabetically sorted and separated by vertical lines (here we already see some formatting/typing inconsistencies that will have to be fixed, including white spaces at the beginning; I'll write about the details on that in a later post):

Colin Barras | Ker Than | Terrence Aym | Yi Liu, Zhao-feng Zhang, ,Zi-cheng Peng\t | A. Leo Oppenheim | A.N. Vyssotsky | Abraham Sachs, Hermann Hunger | Adalbert of Magdeburg | Adomnán of Iona | Adémar de Chabannes | Agapius of Hierapolis | Agathias | Agathias | Agnellus of Ravenna | Agobard of Lyon | Ahmad al-Ya'qubi | Ahmad ibn Fadlan | Al-Suyuti | Al-Tabari | Al-Tabari | Al-Trabulsy, Hussain Ali M. | Albert of Aachen | Alexander E. Gates, Ph.D., and David Ritchie | Alpert of Metz | Ammianus Marcellinus | Andrew Palmer | Anna Komnene | Anonymous | Anselmus Gemblacensis | Aristophane | Aristotle | Arrian | Asser | Astronomus | Aurelius Victor | B. K. Rastogi and R. K. Jaiswal | Bar Hebraeus | Baziotopoulou-Valavani, Efi | Bede | Bernold of Constance | Bloch, Herbert | Brian Fagan | Cassius Dio | Cicero | Cicero | Claudian | Constantine the Great | Cosmas Indicopleustes | Cosmas of Prague | Dallas Abbott | David Cook | David W. Pankenier, Zhentao Xu, and Yaoting Jiang | Demosthenes | Diodorus Siculus | Diodorus Siculus | Diogenes Laertius | Dionysios Ch Stathakopoulos | Dr. S. Van Baars, I. M. Van Kempen | Einhard | Einhardus, Friedrich Kurze, Georg Heinrich Pertz | Ekkehard of Aura | Elias of Nisibis | Emanuela Guidoboni, Alberto Comastri, Giusto Traina | Eusebius of Caesarea | Eutropius | Evagrius Scholasticus | Evagrius Scholasticus | F. Richard Stephenson | Falco of Benevento | Fernando Domínguez-Castro, José Manuel Vaquero | Flavius Cassiodorus | Flavius Josephus | Flodoard of Reims | Fredegar (J. M. Wallace-Hadrlll) | Frutolf of Michelsberg | Fulcher of Chartres | Fusa Miyake, Kimiaki Masuda, Toshio Nakamura | Gary W. Kronk | Gary W. Kronk | Gelzer, Matthias | Genesios | Geoffrey Malaterra | Geoffrey du Breuil | George Childs Kohn | George Kedrenos | Gervase of Canterbury | Gildas | Gregory of Tours | Gregory the Priest | Gu Gongxu, Zhou Wenfu, and Wang Renlong | Guibert of Nogent | Hanson, Victor Davis | Hassan M. Basurah | Hassan M. Basurah | Herbert of Clairvaux | Hermann Hunger | Herodian of Antioch | Herodotus | Herwig Wolfram, Peter Heather, Wolf Liebeschutz, Jean Durliat | Hodgkin, Thomas | Hugo Falcandus | Hugo Farsitus | Hydatius | I. Hasegawa | Ian Orland,John Valley | Ibn al-Athir | Ibn al-Athir | Ibn al-Jauzi | Ibn al-Qalanisi | Ibn al-Qutiyah | Iida, Kumizi | Imad al-Din | J. Llorca, J. M. Trigo-Rodríguez, J.A. Docobo and H. Neira | J. N. Hays | James Harvey Robinson | Janet Nelson (Translator) | Jean-Claude Tanguy & Michel Condomines & Maxime Le Goff & Vito Chillemi & Santo La Delfa & Giuseppe Patanè | Jens Ormo | Jie Fei, Jie Zhou, Yongjian Hou | John Chrysostom | John Dryden | John Hooper | John Lydus (Ioannes Lydus) | John Malalas | John Skylitzes | John Zonaras | John bar Penkaye | John of Ephesus | John of Exham | John of Nikiû | John of Worcester | Joshua the Stylite | Judith Kingston Bjorkman | Julius Obsequens | Justin | Justin Cash | K. Minoura, F. Imamura | Kagan, Donald | Kevin Kam Ching Yau | Klaus Reicherter, Andreas Schaub | Lambert de Wattrelos | Laura Spinney | Leo the Deacon | Leroy Waterman | Libanius | Lief Inge Ree Petersen | Liudprand of Cremona | Livy | Louis A. Scuderi | M.N. Çağatay, L. Erel | Marcellinus Comes | Marcellinus Comes | Marcus Manilius | Marinus of Samaria | Marius of Avenches | Mary Bagley | Matthew of Edessa | Michael Attaleiates | Michael Attaleiates | Michael McCormick, Paul Edward Dutton, Paul A. Mayewski | Michael W. Dols | Michael the Syrian | Mike Baillie | Mohamed Reda Sbeinati, Ryad Darawcheh, Mikhail Mouty | Mohamed Reda Sbeinati, Ryad Darawcheh, Mikhail Mouty | N. N. Ambraseys, C. P. Melville, R. D. Adams | N.N. Ambraseys & C.P. Melville | Nennius | Nicholas Ambraseys | Nikephoros | Nithard | Odo of Deuil | Orderic Vitalis | Orosius | Otto of Freising | Owen Jarus | Paolo A. C. Galli, Diego Molin | Paolo A. C. Galli, Diego Molin | Paul of Bernried | Paul the Deacon | Pausanias | Peter Damian | Peter of Blois | Philostorgius | Phlegon of Tralles | Pindar | Pliny the Elder | Pliny the Younger | Plutarch | Polybius | Procopius | Procopius of Caesarea | Quintus Curtius Rufus | Rada, W. S. and Stephenson, F. R. | Rada, W. S., and Stephenson, F. R. | Rahewin | Raol | Raymond d'Aguilers | Reinhardt, E. G.; Goodman, B. N.; Boyce, J. I.; Lopez, G.; van Hengstum, P.; Rink, W. J.; Mart, Y.; Raban, A. | Richard B. Stothers | Richard W. Bulliet | Richard of Poitou | Robert A. Juhl | Robert of Torigni | Robert the Monk | Rodulfus Glaber | Roger of Wendover | Romuald of Salerno | Ronnie Ellenblum | Ruben Tatevossian, Paola Albini | Said S. Said, F. Richard Stephenson and Wafiq Rada | Saint Bartholomew the Younger | Saint Jerome | Seneca | Seneca | Severus of Al'Ashmunein | Shaw, Brent | Shmuel Marco, Moshe Hartal | Sidonius Apollinaris | Sigebert of Gembloux | Silius Italicus | Socrates of Constantinople | Sozomen | Stathis C. Stiros | Strabo | Suetonius | Susie Allen and William Harms | Symeon of Durham | Symeon the Logothete | Sébastien Durost, Benoît Rossignol | Tabari | Tabari | Tacitus | Theodore the Syncellus | Theophanes the Confessor | Theophylact Simocatta | Thietmar of Merseburg | Thietmar of Merseburg | Thomas John York | Thomas Wykes | Thucydides | Timothy Reuter | Ulf Büntgen | Venerable Bede | Victor of Vita | Walter Map | Widukind of Corvey | William Patterson | William of Apulia | William of Malmesbury | William of Newburgh | William of Tyre | Xenophon | Yahya of Antioch | Yau, K., Weissman, P., & Yeomans, D. | Yeomans, Donald K | Yovhannēs Drasxanakertc'i's | Yukio Hayakawa, Hideko Nakajima | Zachariah of Mitylene | Zachariah of Mitylene | Zosimus | Zuqnin | Zuqnin

Here are all original/ancient authors, alphabetically sorted and separated by vertical lines (here we also see some formatting/typing inconsistencies that will have to be fixed, including white spaces at the beginning; I'll write about the details on that in a later post):

[Shiji: Xiao Jing ben ji] ch. 11 | Agapius, Zuqnin Chronicle | Ammianus Marcellinus | Anonymous | Aristotle | Aristotle, Diodorus Siculus, Seneca, Ephorus | Aristotle, Pliny | BMA 33850 | BMA 35086, [Shiji: feng shan shu] ch. 28; [Han shu: Wu di ji] ch. 6; [Han shu: jiao si zhi] ch. 25 | BMA 41462, BMA 41628 | BMA 45709, [Han shu] | BMA 45731, [Han shu: Jing di ji] ch. 5; [Han shu: wu xing zhi] ch. 27 | Ch'en shu, Sui shu | Chin shih | Chin shih, Dainihonshi | Chou shu, Ch'en shu, Sui shu | Chou shu, Sui shu, T'ung chih | Chronica monasterii Cassinensis by Leo of Ostia and Amatus of Monte Cassino | Chronicle of Paekche | Chronicon Guillelmi de Nangiaco | Chungbo Munhon Pigo | Cicero | Cornelius Tacitus, Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus, Chinese sources | Dainihonshi | Dainihonshi, Chin shih. Sung shih | Dainihonshi, Koryo-sa | Dainihonshi, Sung shih, Chronicon Marchiae Tarvisinae et Lombardiae, Hsy Wen hsien t'ung k'ao, Chronica Majora, Chronicles of the Trevisan March, Annales Prioratus de Wigornia | Dainihonshi, Yuan shih, Sung shih, Hsy Thung Chien Kang Mu, Koryo-sa, Annales Cavenses, Chronicon ex Chronica, Chronicon, Annales Blandinienses, Chronicon Guillelmi de Nangiaco, Nuremburg Chronicles, Continuatio Mellicenses, Chronicon Marchiae Tarvisinae | Einhard | Flavius Josephus | Fredegar | Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus, Dio Cassius, Aurelius Victor, [Samguk sagi] ch. 1; [Jeungbo munheon bigo] ch. 6 | Georgius Cedrenus, Michael Glycas | Gregory of Tours | Han shu | Heraclitus | Hipparchus | Historia Polonica | Hsin T'ang shu | John Lydus, Chinese sources | Koryo-sa | Koryo-sa, Daihihonshi, Azuma Kagami, Chin shih, Chronica Majora, Chronicles of the Trevisan March, Chronicon Marchiae Tarvisinae et Lombardiae, Chronica, Annales Blandinienses, Chronicon ex Chronica (1265), Pragensium Canonicorum Continuatio Cosmae (1283) | Ku chin t'u shu chi ch'eng | Ku chin t'u shu chi ch'eng | Liao shih | Livy | Lucius Annaeus Seneca | Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Cornelius Tacitus, [Hou Han shu: Ming di ji] ch. 2; [Hou Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 21; [Samguk sagi] ch. 1; [Jeungbo munheon bigo] ch. 6 | Nan Thang Shu | Nihon Temmon Shiryo | Nihon Temmon Shiryo, Annales Sanctae Benigni Divionensis | Nihon Temmon Shiryo, Nikonian Chronicle | Paul the Deacon | Pei shih | Pei shih | Pliny the Elder | Pliny the Elder, Hou Han shu | Pliny the Elder; Plutarch; [Shiji: liu guo nian biao] ch. 15 | Plutarch | Polybius | Posidonius | Procopius of Caesarea | Procopius of Caesarea, John Lydus, | Procopius of Caesarea, John Lydus, Chinese sources | Samguk Sagi | Seneca, Pliny the Elder | Seneca; [Han shu: Wu di ji] ch. 6 | Shiji: Wei shi jia] ch. 44; Shiji: liu guo nian biao] ch. 15 | Sui shu | Sui shu, Chronicle of Paekche, Theophylact Simocatta, Chronicle of Fredegar, Historia Gentis Langobardorum, Liber de Temporibus | Sui shu, Pei shih | Sui shu, T'ung chih | Sung Shih, Dainihonshi | Sung shih | Sung shih, Dainihonshi | Sung shih, Wen hsien t'ung k'ao, Hsu Thung Chien Kang Mu | Tacitus, Eusebius, John Lydus | Thung Chien Kang Mu | Timaeus | Timaeus via Strabo | Wen hsien t'ung k'ao, Sung shih | Wen hsien t’ung k’ao (1308), Sung shi(1345) | Wen hsien t’ung k’ao (1308), Sung shi(1345), Hsü Thung Chien Kang Mu (1476), Dainihonshi, Koryo-sa | Widukind of Corvey | Xenophon | Zhushu jinian | [Chen shu: Shi zu ji] ch. 3; [Nan shi: Chen benji] ch. 9; Sui shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 21 | [Chunqiu jingzhuan jijie] ch. 3; [Chunqiu guliang zhuan] ch. 5 | [Han shu Zhao di ji] ch. 7 | [Han shu: Ai di ji] ch. 11; [Samguk sagi] ch. 1 | [Han shu: Cheng di ji] ch. 10; [Han shu: wu xing zhi] ch. 26; [Han shu: Gu Yong zhuan] ch. 85 | [Han shu: Cheng di ji] ch. 10; [Han shu: wu xing zhi] ch. 27 | [Han shu: Gao di ji] ch. 1; [Han shu: wu xing zhi] ch. 27 | [Han shu: Jing di ji] ch. 5 | [Han shu: Wen di ji] ch. 4 | [Han shu: Wu di ji] ch. 6 | [Han shu: Wu di ji] ch. 6; BMA 41131; Marcus Junianus Justinus | [Han shu: Wu di ji] ch. 6; [Han shu: wu xing zhi] ch. 27; Lucius Annaeus Seneca; Marcus Junianus Justinus | [Han shu: Xuan di ji] ch. 8; [Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 26; [Samguk sagi] ch. 1; [Jeungbo munheon bigo] ch. 6 | [Han shu: Xuan di ji] ch. 8; [Han shu: wu xing zhi] ch. 27 | [Han shu: Zhao di ji] ch. 7; [Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 26 | [Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch 26 | [Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 26 | [Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 26; [Samguk sagi] ch. 1; [Jeungbo mun heon bigo] ch. 6 | [Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 26; [Shiji: Jing di ji] ch. 11 | [Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 26; [Xi Han huiyao] ch. 28 | [Han shu: wu xing zhi] ch. 27 | [Han shu: wu xing zhi] ch. 27; [Chunqiu: Ai Gong 13] | [Han shu: wu xing zhi] ch.3, ch. 27 | [Han shu:Jing di ji] ch. 5 | [Han shu] ch. 27 | [Han shu] ch. 7, BM 41018 | [Hou Han shu: Guangwu di ji] ch. 1; [Hou Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 20; [Han shu: Wang Mang zhuan] ch. 99 | [Hou Han shu: Huan di ji] ch. 7; [Hou Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 22 | [Hou Han shu: Huan di ji] ch. 7; [Hou Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 22; [Samguk sagi] ch. 1; [Jeungbo munheon bigo] ch. 6 | [Hou Han shu: Ling di ji] ch. 8; [Hou Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 22 | [Hou Han shu: Ling di ji] ch. 8; [Hou Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 22; [Samguk sagi] ch. 16; [Jeungbo munheon bigo] ch. 6 | [Hou Han shu: Ming di ji] ch. 2; [Hou Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 21 | [Hou Han shu: Shun di ji] ch. 6; [Hou Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 21 | [Hou Han shu: Xian di ji] ch. 9; [Hou Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 22 | [Hou Han shu: Xian di ji] ch. 9; [Samguk sagi] ch. 23; [Jeungbo munheon bigo] ch. 6; [Hou Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 22 | [Hou Han shu: Xian di ji] ch.9; [Hou Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 22 | [Hou Han shu: Xian di ji] ch.9; [Jeungbo munheon bigo] ch. 6; [Samguk sagi] ch. 16 | [Hou Han shu: Zhang di ji] ch. 3; Hou Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 21 | [Hou Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch 20 | [Hou Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch 21 | [Hou Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch 21; [Hou Han shu: An di ji] ch. 5 | [Hou Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch 21; [Hou Han shu: lie zhuan] ch. 30 | [Hou Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch 22 | [Hou Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch 22; [Samguk sagi] ch. 2, 23 | [Hou Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 20 | [Hou Han shu] ch. 11; Hou Han shu note quoting Gu jin zhu] zhi 11 | [Hou Han shu] zhi 11; [Hou Han shu] ch. 6 | [Hou Han shu] zhi 12 | [Huainanzi] ch. 15 | [Jeungbo munheon bigo] ch. 6; [Samguk sagi] ch. 14 | [Jeungbo munheon bigo] ch. 6; [Samguk sagi] ch. 25 | [Jeungbo munheon bigo] ch. 6; [Samguk sagi] ch. 25; [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 25; [Jin shu: An di ji] ch. 10; [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13; [Wei shu: tianxiang zhi] ch. 105; [Jin shu: An di ji] ch. 10 | [Jeungbo munheon bigo] ch. 7 | [Jin shu: Cheng di ji] ch. 7; [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13 | [Jin shu: Gong di ji] ch. 10; [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13; [Jeungbo munheon bigo] ch. 6; [Samguk sagi] ch. 25 | [Jin shu: Hui di ji] ch. 4; [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13; [Jeungbo munheon bigo] ch. 6; [Samguk sagi] ch. 24 | [Jin shu: Wu di ji] ch. 3; [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 23; [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13 | [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13; [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 23 | [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13; [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 24 | [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13; [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 24; [Jin shu: Hui di ji] ch. 4 | [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13; [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 24; [Jin shu: Mu di ji] ch. 8 | [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13; [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 25 | [Jin shu] ch. 13 and [Song shu] ch. 24; [Jin shu] ch. 4 | [Jin shu] ch. 9, 13; [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 25; [Jin shu: Xiaowu di ji] ch. 9; [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13 | [Liang shu: Wu di ji] ch. 3; [Nan shi: Liang benji] ch. 7; [Sui shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 21; [Wei shu: tianxiang zhi] ch. 105 [Anonymous Valesianus] p. 19 [Chronicle] p. 231 | [Liang shu: Wu di ji] ch. 3; [Sui shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 21 | [Nan shi: Qi benji] ch. 5 | [Nan shi: Song benji] ch. 2; [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 26; [Wei shu: tianxiang zhi] ch. 105 | [Nan shi: Song benji] ch. 2; [Wei shu: tianxiang zhi] ch. 105; [Song shu: tianxiang zhi] ch. 105 | [Nan shi] ch. 2; [Wei shu] ch. 105; [Song shu] ch. 26 | [Ninjyu kagami] | [Samguk sagi] ch. 17 | [Samguk sagi] ch. 1; [Jeungbo munheon bigo] ch. 6 | [Samguk sagi] ch. 1; [Jeungbo munheon bigo] ch. 6; [Hou Han shu: Guangwu di ji] ch. 1; [Hou Han shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 20; [Han shu: Wang Mang zhuan] ch. 99 | [Samguk sagi] ch. 23; [Jeungbo munheon bigo] ch. 6 | [Samguk sagi] ch. 2; [Jeungbo munheon bigo] ch. 6 | [Samguk sagi] ch. 3 | [San guo zhi: Wei shu: Muqiujian zhuan] ch. 28; [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13 | [San guo zhi: Wei shu] ch. 3; [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 23 | [San guo zhi: Wei shu] ch. 3; [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 23; [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13 | [San guo zhi: Wu shu] ch. 48; [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13; [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 23 | [Shiji: Qin Shihuang benji] ch. 6 | [Shiji: Qin Shihunag benji] ch. 6; Shiji: liu guo nian biao] ch. 15 | [Shiji: Qin benji] ch. 5; [Shiji: liu guo nian biao] ch. 15 | [Shiji: Qin benji] ch. 6 | [Shiji: Xiao Jing ben ji] ch. 11 | [Shiji: liu guo nian biao] ch. 15; [Shiji: Qin benji] ch. 5 | [Shiji: shi-er guo nian biao] ch. 14 | [Shiji: shi-er guo nian biao] ch. 14; [Han shu: wu xing zhi] ch. 27 | [Shiji: shi-er guo nian biao] ch. 15 | [Shiji: shi-er guo nian biao] ch.14; [Shiji] ch. 32 | [Shiji:Qin Shihuang benji] ch. 6; [Shiji: liu guo nian biao] ch. 15 | [Shiji:Qin benji] ch. 5; [Shiji: liu guo nian biao] ch. 15 | [Shiji] ch. 44 | [Song shu: Shao di ji] ch. 4; [Nan shi: Song benji] ch. 1; [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 26 | [Song shu: tianwen zhi] c. 26; [Song shu: Shao di ji] ch. 4; [Wei shu: tianxiang zhi] ch. 105 | [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 23 | [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 23; [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13 | [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 23; [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13; [Jin shu: Wu di ji] ch. 3 | [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 24; [Jin shu: Cheng di ji] ch. 7; [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13 | [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 24; [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13 | [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 24; [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13; [Jin shu: Hui di ji] ch. 4 | [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 25; [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13 | [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 25; [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13; [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13 | [Song shu: tianwen zhi]; [Jin shu: Wu di ji] ch. 3; [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13 ch. 23 | [Song shu: tianwen zhi]; [Samguk sagi] ch. 24; [Jeungbo munheon bigo] ch. 6; [Jin shu: Wu di ji] ch. 3; [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13 ch. 23 | [Song shu: tianwen zhi]; [San guo zhi: Wei shu: Ming di ji] ch. 3 ch. 23 | [Tong zhi: zaixiang lue] ch. 74 | [Wei shu tianxiang zhi] ch. 105 | [Wei shu: tianxiang zhi ch. 105 | [Wei shu: tianxiang zhi] c. 105 | [Wei shu: tianxiang zhi] ch. 105 | [Wei shu: tianxiang zhi] ch. 105 | [Wei shu: tianxiang zhi] ch. 105; [Nan shi: Song benji] ch. 1; [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 26 | [Wei shu: tianxiang zhi] ch. 105; [Song shu: Shao di ji] ch. 4; [Nan shi: Song benji] ch. 4; [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 26 | [Wei shu: tianxiang zhi] ch. 105; [Song shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 25; [Jin shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 13 | [Wei shu: tianxing zhi] ch. 105 | [Wei shu: tianxing zhi] ch. 105; [Wei shu: Cui Hao zhuan] ch. 35 | [Wei shu; tianxiang zhi] ch. 105 | [Wenxian tongkao] ch. 286 | [Zhou shu: Wu di ji] ch. 5; [Sui shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 21; [Bei shi: Zhou benji] ch. 10 | [Zhou shu: Wu di ji] ch. 5; [Sui shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 21; [Bei shi: Zhou benji] ch. 10; [Nan shi: Chen benji] ch. 9; [Bei Qi shu: di ji] ch. 8; [Bei shi: Qi benji] ch. 8; [Sui shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 21 | [Zhou shu: Wudi ji] ch. 5; [Sui shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 21; [Sui shu: tianwen zhi] ch. 21 | [Zhushu jinian] xia | ca. 41 BCE: Letter of Mark Antony to John Hyrcanus II, quoted verbatim supposedly

 

[Zadig]

Re: Historical Events Database

Can we have a final list of all the authors we've covered? If there is a significant missing one, I'll try to kick it in there.

All Roman History is missing, i.e. Livy, Dionysius, Appian, Plutarch Roman Lives and so on

This is now fixed.

.

Thanks.

 

[Mikey]

Re: Historical Events Database

While waiting for the other contributors to chime in, today I went over this whole thread and collected together Lauras posts that give an outline of what we were/are trying to do. It hopefully will refresh our memory for the steps ahead: filing more events, proofreading and checking and correcting them, and hopefully finally publishing them.

Maybe we can refine the requirements at this point, based on the following posts. Again, please wait a bit before we all jump back into the database application, lets first plan our steps.


General aim

Let's leave the serious editing and combining for later {{this is now}} when we have time to pull some stats and look at things more carefully.

I'm thinking that we might ask the database to spit out texts in order and produce a real "Chronicle of the Fall".

I'm thinking that what we will do with this database (mentioned already), is publish it almost as it is, with only some connecting text here and there, and just put it as a group work and I'll be 'editor'. So ya'll have to decide if you want your names on the volume.

Additionally now, with the editing history included on the text entry page, you can check back on your own entries to see how they have been fixed. This will help accomplish one of the important elements of this project: learning. If you network here on the thread, check your entries to see how they've been adjusted, or fix them yourself, it will begin to change the way you look at texts, particularly historical ones. It's kind of like using your brain as a precision tool and making it very, very sharp. The only OTHER way to get there would be to read hundreds, if not thousands, of books on history, histories of histories, text criticism, paleography, archaeology, etc etc. But I think I can teach all of you by a series of examples, by the DOing of it, and this incisive way of looking at things can carry over into other areas of your life.

Remember what I said: it's like the biggest whodunnit of all time.

THINK! Look at your evidence. What is the writer hiding or revealing or revealing by trying to hide, or what may have been lost in translation, interpretation by later copyists, critics, historians, etc. QUERY YOUR TEXT INTELLIGENTLY WITH ALL WE KNOW ABOUT COMETS, CURRENT EVENTS THAT ARE SIMILAR, ELECTRIC UNIVERSE, etc etc!

This is an example of WHY you must keep your events in your head so that when you come across the next one that is similar, you stop, take a deeper look and understand the nature of the text and what kind of flim-flam has taken place.

WITHOUT this kind of scrutiny, you cannot SEE what is really going on. Without understanding the nature of the texts, what has been done with them and how, it will only mess up the database so that we can derive nothing useful from it.

TEXTUAL ANALYSIS is part of this project, it is not just rushing to get as many entries in as possible. If those entries are not handled carefully, we will do not better than anyone who has gone before us.

Keep in mind that this entire project is an exercise in deeply critical thinking and application of knowledge. It really is important to have historical knowledge, some knowledge of text criticism, historiography (which I have condensed for you in this thread and others), etc. If you don't have all of that, just go slow and careful and ask questions. I'd rather answer questions than have to go in and fix dozens of entries! Plus, when a text is discussed, it helps others to learn as well.

This project requires THINKING about the data so that when you enter it, we can then extract it in a variety of ways.

We are concerned with the descriptions of the disasters and events.

... our main objective is to find ways of aligning and correcting the Western historical timeline that has been corrupted by the Catholic Church. The destruction of the Roman Empire is the central event of that corruption and everything pretty much revolves around that.

About Quantiy vs. Quality

Let's not go so much for speed as for quality of entries to make sure that each one is properly considered and the way is found to give it the proper weight.

Remember, quality of entries over quantity! We are not in a race to fill the database in a hurry, we want to work with our texts in a careful and thorough way so that we get the most out of our efforts when the time comes to begin creating graphs. Remember GIGO.

If we don't get the proper number/weight of entries for events, the database will not do what it is supposed to do. And if others have to come in after you and sort out everything you've done, then it is a lot more work.

About formatting and spelling

Also, when copy/pasting text into the quote box, try to make sure it is decently formatted because we will be calling these texts and printing them. If they are messy, then they will assemble in a messy way and look bad. Try to correct OCR errors, spacing, spelling, etc.

Also, you really do need to be careful about spelling ESPECIALLY in keywords.

Finally, when you copy and paste in text, please make sure that it is formatted correctly.

"German" is misspelled. That can produce difficulty for finding things in a database. Spelling is important.

you misspelled "Caracalla" in keywords. A misspelled keyword is useless.

Also notice that i pasted them in exactly as you had them which means that they were copy-pasted with errant paragraphs.

About what not to include

Don't put any biblical events in because they do not have secure dates or even remotely secure. Heck, they are mythical past. If you have read Gmirkin and Louden, you realize that much of the bible is a rip-off of the Odyssey and my guess is that much more is a rip-off of Roman legends. So, none of that.

I'm beginning to think that we ought not to include anything from Josephus at all.

About the inclusion of wars

Hmmm... well, if they are significant, I'd say yes. And if there is a famous massacre or siege, yes. But not every single diddly war because some of them weren't really wars.

You have to use judgment on some of these things. It was because of my comparative reading of mainstream history vs. the ancient texts where the portents and prodigies were included, that I realized that it very well may be that the death and destruction brought on by wars and conflict or oppression COULD "attract" cosmic destruction.

I think the important thing is the UGLY factor. If something strikes you as being really ugly and unjust, and having impact on society beyond just the battle itself, yeah, I think it is important.

I've deleted a handful of your entries concerning battles of Charlemagne and coronation of Louis, etc. Not interested in those at all. Only want famous battles or wars that COULD, possibly, be misrepresented. Most of what is written about battles in those times, after the fall, was totally made up. There might have been a small raid or tribal battle, but it is clear that nothing like what was written about it later was remotely true. IF the battle is associated with an unusual event, prodigy, comet, or whatever, make that unusual even the entry, and include something like "Meteor shower, battle between saxons and lombards" or something like that.

About citations

Also, it would be nice to have the name of the emperor/king included in all of these things. And again, the reason it is so important to have complete source material is so that I can find the darn passage if I see that corrections need to be made or further exploration is warranted. Zadig, can you beef up your citations, please?

As I have noted, when making entries in the database, I sometimes spend an hour or more on a single entry because I'm checking the context, double-checking the dates (if possible) or trying to find any supporting documentation. I also try to check spelling in the text, especially if an OCR source is used where many errors can be found, not to mention the errors I make while typing if I am transcribing directly. So, it will be good if you will do the same.

This highlights the problems with text transmission down through the centuries, too, by the way, and we don't want to contribute to such errors ourselves.

Do not enter anything without the source citations!!!!

Also, when using Dio Cassius, it is not necessary to include his name in the title... It's just "Roman History" And put the volume number where the volume numbers belong, not in the title, please.

I do want to warn you that using web sources such as the one where you found this can be iffy. I usually try to get the book or paper sourced and check it. It would be nice to have the journal page numbers...

About the assumptions of the writers

Let me add this: Historians will make all kinds of footnotes in texts to explain away phenomena with no basis in fact whatsoever, just their assumption. "Oh, there was ash falling, must have been Vesuvius." This is what we have to combat, this tendency to normalize things when there is no valid evidence for it.

Most historians would rather blame death and destruction on wars and migrations NOT geological or cosmic events. I think I mentioned that somewhere or other. SO BE ON THE LOOKOUT for that sort of nonsense, not just from the ancient historians who were trying to cover up the "Wrath of God," but also from the recent ones!!!

Also, you can't always trust archaeologists either. Thing is, historians are a couple of degrees deeper in the illusions than archaeologists. And even the above book doesn't deal with the cosmic factors, though it is a step away from "the barbarians did it."

About English spelling

Can we get all of the "Constantinopolis" changed to Constantinople?

Please employ English usage. What good is a database if the same thing has different names and when you call for your data, it doesn't respond?

Also, Antioch and similar names that we have English versions of.

Also, again, let's standardize the names of emperors. Justinus should be Justin II. If necessary, check google for years of reign to make sure you have the correct name and number.

About the Quote field

In the text box marked "quote" - that's where you put your text from the source you are using and which is listed in the "author, title, volume, etc etc" fields.

Ya'll be sure to include as complete a text as possible for the event without going overboard. And be sure also to include the information so that I can find it myself when I'm checking through things.

Also, when I wrote: "And include enough of the original text, if not ALL of it, to make it easy for a future reader to completely orient themselves in the situation at hand." I meant to enter the text in the quote box in the data entry form, NOT in keywords. Just in case anyone might misunderstand that.

About keywords

Another one, just for an example so everyone will know: you put in keywords "four stars appeared." That makes "appeared" a key word which is not useful. Try to avoid commonplace words that are irrelevant to the event as keywords. I changed this to "four stars, crown of fire" which is more useful for searching.

Hopefully, everyone will catch on to how you have to think about these things. You'll find that it actually changes the way you think about everything, makes it more logical and empirical.

Ya'll remember, keywords are exactly that: they are not long descriptions of things. You should find the most ACUTE and pertinent words to enter there, words that encapsulate as briefly as possible, the essence of the event for the convenience of a future searcher. Try to think about "what words would I be looking for to find things in this database in the future when I've mostly forgotten details of each entry?" What descriptive words stand out in the text?

Again, do NOT repeat words that are already entered in other fields in the keywords if you can avoid it. Use the keywords for ADDITIONAL descriptive terms. And include enough of the original text, if not ALL of it, to make it easy for a future reader to completely orient themselves in the situation at hand.

Let's TRY to keep our keywords USEFUL and ACCURATE and avoid common words that clutter them up.

Well, for our purposes including Asian dynasties, names, etc, is pretty useless. I think that if someone ever came along and wanted to use the database for some other reason, they could easily add those things in.

I don't see any way that Asian information, other than astronomical sightings, can be useful to that purpose. And the only way it is useful is if we can associate any of those sighting with Western hemisphere events. Many of the Asian comet sightings might be useless since they may have only been visible from Asia, but we are hoping to find some matches. Sometimes, even if the event is not visible in the Western hemisphere, it may still indicate other celestial or terrestrial phenomena.

If you put in the areas of the sky where an event occurred, please put it in English.

Also, you don't need to enter "Mesopotamia" in the keywords. The location is already in a different field and that is too broad. If a specific city is destroyed or something like that, you might include the name. Only enter there such things as might be useful OTHERWISE in sorting the items.

Remember that keywords are a means of further classification. Except in particular cases, you don't put the name of the city there since it is already in the "location" field.

Ya'll PLEASE check your keywords and try to put yourself in the mind of someone who might want to find something significant about the event: what terms might stick in their mind? What further precision can you add to the description there?

I noticed your new entry #760 with keywords: "Sky appeared to glow".

A way to condense that and avoid using too many common words would be "glowing sky". Plus, that would be the characteristic of the event that might stick in the mind. The researcher probably would not think "Hmmm... I remember an entry that said "Sky appeared to glow"" Instead, "Hmmm... I remember seeing an entry that said something about a glowing sky...."

See? It is not only to further describe the event, but to do so in a way that is more or less "universal" to all others working on the database now and in future. See how thinking about this can be not only an act of clarity of thought, but also logic and external considering.

Also, as you can guess, keywords will be important especially if you can use them to match up events. I've got a couple from Gregory yesterday that I'm going to reassign because in both of them, boats were mentioned as being destroyed by a flood. So if you put in the right keywords, things like that will stand out.

what we don't want to do: putting the location and type of event in the keywords.

For example, in your keywords on item: 178 you had "pestilence, Byzantium". "Pestilence" is already indicated in the TYPE of event and the location, Byzantium is already in the location field. The Keywords filed is for FURTHER descriptive terms, short concise if possible.

So, after reading your text, I changed the keywords to "worldwide death and destruction" which is basically the thrust/line of force of that particular text.

What is important, besides helping a searcher, is that this exercises your critical thinking to try to find a way to further define the event in a way that will be intuitive and useful.

This is where "putting yourself into the shoes of other people" comes in more or less. You try to imagine someone else searching for something: what words would they use? What words are common that would most effectively bring up the entry?

I'm thinking about these weird markings we've come across several times now and we need to find all of them and be consistent about how we describe them in keywords. Thus far, I've just used "unusual marks" with maybe "on walls, clothing" to further describe them. I think there is something interesting there that we may want to pull all those descriptions together at one point and examine them closely so we'll need to be sure that we include something in keywords that will gather them.

don't forget to always put Halley's in the keywords so I can find all of them when the time comes. That will tell us how many years we have to lop off of each segment of time.

About orignal/ancient authors

It is best to use the ORIGINAL SOURCE IF POSSIBLE and then stack the additional repeats in the quote text box. Any notes in the "notes" box.

If you will notice, all the ancient texts I work from have the ancient author listed AS THE AUTHOR.

If there is commentary that reveals the possible source, yes, put it in. OR, if possible, get it from the source it is derived from unless it is lost. ... In all cases, I tried to get the earliest version of events. There's no reason ya'll can't be using that and getting the data entered.

Always try to get the earliest version. If another author covers it, you can include his version in the text/notes field and his name, work, etc. That, in itself, is an interesting thing because you can see how texts get changed. And sometimes, as in the case of Ammianus and the tsunami, it can be shown that two sources are drawing from a third original source, and each giving different parts attention.

Choose the earliest writer and then add the subsequent ones in the notes sections. Try to include the quotes from each in reference to the event.

Obviously, we only want the witnesses; problem is, there was a lot of meddling with the sources and sometimes one later source that still had access to the original gives additional details that are lost from the redacted original. So, the only solution there would be to ONLY enter the original, contemporary chronicle events and then add the repeats in the same quote field, with sources in parentheses.

About categories

Unusual weather is now the catchall TYPE under the "Environment" category. What we will do from now on is put ALL unusual weather in this category->type. THEN we will indicate what it is in the KEYWORDS with the following suggested (use if possible) keywords: Drought, Flood, Severe Cold, Extreme heat, Severe storm, tornado and/or whirlwind, hurricane/tempest.

Next: the term "Pestilence" will be removed from the TYPE "Pestilence/Mass Death." It will remain "Mass Death" and will be of any kind, flood, earthquake, fire, war, etc. HOWEVER, we will indicate what it is in keywords and when it is an epidemic/plague, we will use the keyword "Pestilence". You can use that alone, or with other terms. The word "Pestilence" is preferred over plague. And we will NOT use the term "Bubonic" because that is a specific disease and is not likely to have been the cause of the "Plague of Justinian" or most of the disease caused deaths of the time. I think you will find that in the various translations of these texts, the word "bubonic" was never in the original, but was added as an assumption by the translator.

Just so everyone knows: PRODIGY: an amazing or unusual thing, especially one out of the ordinary course of nature. "omens and prodigies abound in Livy's work"

About translators and editors

Do not list the translator as the author. List the author if known. In this case, it is. And then, put in the Floruit dates.

Just remember: a translation is still a book BY THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR.

About duplicate/multiple entries

When you make an entry, check the year on the database to make sure that the entry - by the same author you are working with - isn't already there. If the same event is there, but you have a different account of it, simply copy the testimony of YOUR author (and who the author is) into the text thingy in the already existing entry. That way we won't duplicate events but we'll know who all wrote about it.

If it is the SAME event and it is like 99% certain, just add the further testimonies in the text quote box, with source in parentheses!!!!!

PLEASE SORT BY DATE AND MAKE SURE YOU ARE NOT DUPLICATING ENTRIES!!!

I think we all need to go back over our early entries and clean them up and standardize them. It takes awhile to get used to something and to start really getting a feel for what is needed. And if we have added second or third original sources that we have not given their own entry, we need to take care of that. However, I have noticed that it is sometimes necessary to include a bit of related text in the notes box with an explanation that the current entry is similar to a previous entry, here's why, then I quote it and give the entry number in the appropriate box. I notice that Zadig is making very good use of the cross-corresponding entries coding system.

if an entry has multiple events, follow the rule to make multiple entries each in its proper category.

Let me say this again to avoid confusion:

We make multiple entries for events that have multiple ASPECTS or CONSEQUENCES. But no multiple entries for the same, single thing.

If an earthquake is accompanied by a tsunami, fire, high death toll, each gets its own entry.

Ten sources all talking about the same comet do NOT each get their own entry.

We sorta worked it out that when we can't be SURE about an event, and there are several sources talking about something similar, we put them separately but we note our suspicion that they are doublets or triplets in the field where you note such things. For example, the events described in Rome by Paul the Deacon and the same story told from a different perspective by Gregory of Tours. The ascribed dates on the two events were different, but I gave each a separate entry, with the same date with margin, and explained why I had done so in the notes field.

PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! when you make an entry, SORT BY DATE AND MAKE SURE YOU AREN'T DOING A DUPE!

YES, you could/should ADD your entry to the already existing entry - just click "edit" and scroll to the bottom of the text box, make some kind of indication that a new entry is starting (just check what others do to see), and add it in there.

It is NOT going to help us to have false signals!

The REASON for breaking down reports into separate data points is so that an event that has many factors, which is naturally "heavier" will then plot as heavier when we are looking at a given time/place.

Notes field

In the Notes box to the right, you will put your comments about why you have done this or that, or additional information that you think is necessary. I sometimes pull a bit from wikipedia to put there to explain something, or some expert on the text in question, or the footnotes from the text, or I just write what I think about it.

We just need to think about it this way: Suppose we just dump the whole database to the printer in chronological order: would a reader who does NOT have a whole lot of historical knowledge be able to read each entry and know what's going on? That's why it is sometimes necessary to put in some background historical info in the notes.

when the document is printed, the material in the Quote box will be the TEXT and the material in the Notes box will become either additional commentary or footnotes, so make your text nice! If each entry is as perfect as it can be, when it is all sorted by date and printed out, it will be a stupendous book!

About dating

Missing dates

... if you don't have a date, it's useless.

Wrong dating

Hopefully, all of you making entries can learn from this complex text Gaby was working with and see how careful you need to be when you make the entries. You need to look in the timeline of the table for anything already entered within a couple years either way of what you intend to enter to see if something similar has been described by another source and erroneously given a wrong dating either by that source, or by the historian analyst or translator.

In fact, it may simply be exactly this sort of thing: different sources picking and choosing what they will include and leaving out important elements, and then the dates getting messed up, that have dramatically elongated the timeline of history. After all, five years here, two or three there, ten another place, done by 10 different historians, and we would have our 200+ years accounted for without having to say that somebody arbitrarily added 200 or 300 years at some point. We may just need to close things up like a paper fan or something.

At the same time, we need to realize that there was a LOT going on, from year to year to year. It was just one freaking disaster after another, place after place.

Obviously, with the problems I've discovered going carefully through the texts and noting what shows up adjacent to what else in the database, and figuring out what connects to what else, and then how the comet dating might help, it seems that trying to graph the events AS DATED BY THE CHRONICLERS, might lead nowhere. Since the redactors have obviously moved some events far away from their real time of occurrence, more or less ad hoc and arbitrarily, and other dating anomalies have crept in due to copying errors over time, there's no way that the data would show an accurate, mappable graphic representation to match to ice cores or tree rings by sliding it up and down to find the "best fit."

Okay, I've thought about it some more. I think it is still a good idea to get all the events loaded from the various sources, each with their own entry, so we can extract them graphically both together and separately. That will help to tell us what the redactors have done; it may actually reveal their patterns, how they went about their task.

Then, we need all the comet data entries and as much archaeology as we can get, again, as separate entries with keyword and entry number connections.

What I'm going to do as we go along, as things become clear, is create a separate database to the side that will be an attempt to sort it all out by correcting dates, etc. If the entries are in the main database, it will be a lot easier for me to transfer the ones wanted/needed. And then we'll get some graphs to make comparisons.

Corrected dating

Data is going to make a special field for me so that when I start to try to sort out the dating issues, I will have a place to enter the "probable date" as opposed to the given dates. That might produce some very interesting results.

About the time frame

Since the meddling that we are concerned with mainly concerns the Roman Empire I pretty much delimited it with the founding of Rome. I think the earliest secure event Yeomans had was in the 7th century BC. If we don't really have any social events to link it to, there's no point in having it go back any further.

Well, I would like to take it to Tunguska since we have an ice-core signal there.

 

[shijing]

Re: Historical Events Database

Now, before we begin, I'd like to ask who of the previous contributors are still willing and able to invest time and effort, at least for fixing reported problems that will be found in their own entries? This time, we'll network extensively to be very well coordinated and synchronized. We all will be under each other's review. The quality of the final result will depend on that, and I don't see how it could be done otherwise. In any event, further suggestions are welcome!

I'm willing to edit my entries and then some.

Same here, and thanks for helping to organize this, Data. I've also been continuing work on Kronk's Cometography, since there is still quite a ways to go before reaching the early 20th century (the Tunguska event) -- I hope that's a good use of time right now, but if not just let me know.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Now, before we begin, I'd like to ask who of the previous contributors are still willing and able to invest time and effort, at least for fixing reported problems that will be found in their own entries? This time, we'll network extensively to be very well coordinated and synchronized. We all will be under each other's review. The quality of the final result will depend on that, and I don't see how it could be done otherwise. In any event, further suggestions are welcome!

I'm willing to edit my entries and then some.

Same here, and thanks for helping to organize this, Data. I've also been continuing work on Kronk's Cometography, since there is still quite a ways to go before reaching the early 20th century (the Tunguska event) -- I hope that's a good use of time right now, but if not just let me know.

You can replace all the Chinese stuff from the archaeoastronomy book. It's not helpful at all.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Historical Events Database

Now, before we begin, I'd like to ask who of the previous contributors are still willing and able to invest time and effort, at least for fixing reported problems that will be found in their own entries? This time, we'll network extensively to be very well coordinated and synchronized. We all will be under each other's review. The quality of the final result will depend on that, and I don't see how it could be done otherwise. In any event, further suggestions are welcome!

Yes, I'll be willing. I still remember my entries very well. I also kept an eye on the sott database, so I entered a lot of URLs which I can fix according to the final format.

 

[shijing]

Re: Historical Events Database

You can replace all the Chinese stuff from the archaeoastronomy book. It's not helpful at all.

OK, I'll begin deleting the entries wherever they're duplicated by Kronk's material. The archaeoastronomy book is actually divided into two sections -- the first is 'comets', which is all covered in Kronk, so that can be done away with; the second is 'meteor showers', which is not duplicated by Kronk (or Yeomans) -- would you like that included eventually, or do you prefer that it be left out? And speaking of Yeomans, do you want his material which duplicates Kronk's deleted as well, or shall we leave it as is even though it's redundant?