Historical Events Database - History

Re: Historical Events Database

Laura said:
Well, don't get bogged down with it if you can't find a resolution within a few days. You see what happens?! Same thing with that darn falling mountain I found in Pliny. Fortunately, I was able to resolve it within a couple of days, including dating it.

It will take me more than a couple of days since I'm a very slow reader but I should be able to have a definite reasoned judgment within a week tops. I can spare that much, I think.

I think that the only thing we will get from Josephus is a load of BS.

That seems increasingly likely the more I read of, and about him.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Did some digging and I got the first and third one (see attachments). With regard to the second one, unfortunately, not all editions of the journal ''Byzantion, Revue Internationale des Études Byzantines" is uploaded online. And my library only has the journal's editions from 1877-1938, so not the 1999 one. Hopefully your library will have it Zadig?

No, I can’t have this paper. But I can borrow a book on Agathias by Averil Cameron.

Anyway, as you are a student, can you have access to:

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/620767?uid=3738016&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21104508177323

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/617912?uid=3738016&uid=2134&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21104509235163

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/95JD01751/abstract

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/226971?uid=3738016&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21104499453373

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1010727122905

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10950-007-9071-1

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00445-011-0454-3#page-1
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Hi Zadig,

I got all of them, except for "Stratospheric loading and optical depth estimates of explosive volcanism over the last 2100 years derived from the Greenland Ice Sheet Project 2 ice core" _http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/95JD01751/abstract

Unfortunately my uni doesn't have access to this article of wiley.com.

I attached the other papers to this post. Anyone else adding data to the database and needing papers, let me know! I'm not sure though if it's okay for me to attach them to a post as some of them are 2MB files, and whether it might be better to send articles to the person's email instead? On the other hand, perhaps it might be handy to have it here in case someone else wants to read it/needs it?
 

Attachments

Re: Historical Events Database

Hi Zadig,

I got all of them

Thanks a lot!

I'm not sure though if it's okay for me to attach them to a post as some of them are 2MB files, and whether it might be better to send articles to the person's email instead? On the other hand, perhaps it might be handy to have it here in case someone else wants to read it/needs it?

I think, it’s better to post articles here, because the price is so expensive that most people can’t afford it.
 
Re: Historical Events Database


I thought there had been a specific thread opened on the subject of finding absolute dates with the help of the apparitions of Halley's comet. I can't find it so I guess the mentions were all posted here.

I have also been thinking about how to find dates via Halley and do not see why a computer program should not help sort through the data. Has anyone tried this yet?

My initial idea came when I realised that Halley does not appear regularly but rather turns up at any time within a (roughly) 10 year window or, if you like, it's period is something like 76+or-5years. This struck me as interesting because it gives a recognisable sequence that can be searched for in the European data. That is, a comparison with the European data can be 'skewed' by any number of years to see if there are any interesting matching sequences.

I looked through the web for papers on Halley's motion and thought that "The long-term motion of comet Halley" http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1981MNRAS.197..633Y offers the most recent work on the subject. It seems to me, that at least for a first stab at the problem we have a helpful list of the apparitions of Halley admittedly correlated against the Chinese observations, but for the most part calculated via celestial mechanics and modern ephemeris and independent of any relative historical comparisons.

I wrote a simple Perl script to compare the Halley list against a list of Classical and later European observations. The idea was to skew the European list against the time line of the Halley data to find any matching pairs of comets and see if there were any significant sequences of apparitions. It did that for all possible/reasonable skews between the European and the Chinese dates, starting with a straight match and going up to 1000 years difference.

Initially I thought that only the sequences of the Halley data would be useful to search on, and I searched through all possible matches through the total time sequence. This approach was a bit heavy handed of course,but it was somewhere to start. It output rather too much not very helpful data and the significant preponderance of matches was on the accepted time-line.

The hypothesis that this approach can test is that there have been several fairly large-scale adjustments to the time line and the consequence being that the apparent skew will alter at different historical periods. With that in mind, the search can be localised to specific periods, say to before 100AD or between 1AD and 300AD or whatever seems suitable and thereby make the data output more comprehensible. Another result of this is that more of the data from Asian sources can be included, not just the sequence of Halley. Because, though their timeline may also be corrupted, it will only have been done so in chunks as is posited for the European one. Finally, rather than looking for the total of matches across the full time period 2500 years it would be better to look for clusters, because we do not know where the breaks in the time lines are. Of course this can only be expected to give any sort of result if the alterations to the time line have not been made too frequently.

With the output filtered in this way the matches against Halley for the current time-line did not stand out so much for they had mostly appeared in the later years, post AD900 and there also seemed to be some interesting alternative sequences.

I had got to about this point when we also got the information from the July 12th session http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=35409.0 with the pointer to 479 years ago. When I plugged this number into the skew variable of the program and searched for the sequencesof paired comets over the Roman period I got an interesting cluster of matches. (Though, of course, it is hard to know if it was significant in a rigorously statistical sense).

I think there is some traction in this approach. However I don't want to raise anybody's hopes with actual results because I do not have a good data set to work with. For the Chinese data I used the above mentioned Halley sequence, and mostly the Chinese comets from Pinge's Cometographie Vol1 . For the European comets I again used Pingre, those listed in J.T.Ramsey: "A Catalogue of Greco-Roman Comets from 500 B.C. to A.D. 400" http://jha.sagepub.com/content/38/2/175 and also some comets from the few pages of Kronk I was able to to see via Google Books previews.

I will attach the data I used and the program. I hope I wrote without too much Perl obfuscation so if anyone is interested it should be fairly straight forward to see what the underlying heuristic is supposed to be.

The program prints out each skew per line when there have been more than some minimum number of matches. Below is an example, unfortunately the line is quite long and wraps around.

479:25:********************************* 54/-425 ********************************** 277/-202 **** 306/-173 ** 343/-136 ** 374/-105 * 392/-87 *** 418/-61 ** 436/-43 449/-30 451/-28 *** 534/55 539/60 **** 607/128 **** 641/162 ************* 842/363 ********* 998/519 1003/524 ** 1018/539 *** 1056/577 ****************** 1239/760 ************* 1334/855 1337/858 ** 1356/877 ***************** 1463/984 * 1468/989 ***

The first number is the skew of the time line and in this example is the number suggested by the Cs. The second number is the number of matched pairs of comets for that skew and the rest of the line is the actual comet pairs, Chinese_comet/European_comet. The stars show where no pair existed for the comet in the Chinese sequence. This particular line shows a potentially interesting grouping of comets observed in Roman times between the years -202 and AD162 using conventional dating. They match with a sequence of comets observed in China between AD277 and 641. BTW 374, 451 and 607 are Halley.

I hope you sort of get the picture. Of course the thing could be prettier and generally better in lots of ways but is there any point in going further?

BTW. I just sent this with a Perl file attached and it would not upload, but not only that it wiped out my post which I had not saved in drafts and I have had to write it out again Doh!! I am sure the first version gave a much clearer explanation. Doh!! Doh!!

I will send this second version as-is and cut and paste the Perl script into another post and attach the data I was using to that.
 
Re: Historical Events Database



This is the Perl script I mentioned in the previous post.I could not attach it as a file so I have quoted it. The data files I used with it are attached.
#!/usr/bin/perl
use strict;
use warnings;
use feature ':5.10';
use List::MoreUtils qw(uniq);


#print "File name: comets.pl\n";
my $min_hits=5; #### keep too much noise out of the results
my $ww=20; #### full screen width window
my $sep="---:--:-------------------------------------------------------\n";

push(my @Rdata_files,"./pingre_europe.txt","./greco_romanAD400_500BC.txt","./part_Kronk_1400.txt");
my @RCs=get_data(@Rdata_files); ###### RCs are Roman Comets

push(my @Cdata_files,"./10chinese.txt","./halley1400.txt","./pingre_china.txt");
my @CCs=get_data(@Cdata_files); ###### CCs are Chines Comets


#These 6 lines just format and print out the input data.
###
#foreach(@Cdata_files){printf("%s ",$_)}printf("\n");
#print "$sep";
#&list_comets("Hal",@halley_data);
#print "$sep";
#&list_comets("CCs",@CCs);
#print "$sep";

my $skew=0;
my $this_line="";
#for($skew=400;$skew<1000;$skew++) ##### range of years timeline skewed
#for($skew=0;$skew<700;$skew++)
foreach $skew (0,76,84,209,479,733) #### or choose individual skews
{my $hits=0;
$this_line="";
foreach(@CCs) #### loop through the Chinese records
{my $C_pair=$_;
# if($_>500 ) ####date according to chinese time line
# if(400>$_&&$_<600)
if(1) #### go for all of them
{my $cc_matched=0;
foreach(@RCs) #### loop through the european records
{my $R_pair=$_;
# if($_<300) ####date according to european time line
# if($_>100 && $_<1000)
if(1)
{if($C_pair-$R_pair==$skew)
{$this_line=$this_line.sprintf("%5d/%-5d",$C_pair,$R_pair);
$hits++;
$cc_matched++;
}
}
}
if(!$cc_matched)

{$this_line=$this_line.sprintf("%s","*"); ###nothing at this skew
}
}
}
if($hits>=$min_hits)
{printf("%3d:%2d:%s\n",$skew,$hits,$this_line);
}
}
#printf("$sep");
#&list_comets("CCs",@CCs);
########################################################

sub list_comets ##### (list-name, list-of-comets)
{printf("%6s",shift @_);
my $n=$ww;
foreach(@_)
{printf("%5d ",$_);
if($n==0)
{$n=$ww;
printf("\n%6s"," ");
}
else
{$n--;
}
}printf("\n");
}

sub get_data ######## (file-names in ./ the current dir)
{my $FH;
my @back;
foreach(@_)
{open($FH, '<', $_ )or die "unable to open input file: $_";
while (<$FH>)
{my @these = split(' ', $_);
foreach(@these)
{push @back, $_;
}
}
close($FH);
}
@back=sort {$a <=> $b} @back;
@back=uniq @back;
}
 

Attachments

Re: Historical Events Database

panca kanga said:
I thought there had been a specific thread opened on the subject of finding absolute dates with the help of the apparitions of Halley's comet. I can't find it so I guess the mentions were all posted here.

The discussion about that possibility started in the thread following Session July 12, 2014, but some of it spilled over into this one. Here is where it all started, but in order to find the scattered comments on it you will need to read that whole thread, I'm afraid:

Session July 12 said:
A: Christianity was a series of developments over a very long period of time and thus your question does not approach any possibility of being answered as you have asked it.

Q: (L) I think that the final putting together of Christianity was...

(Perceval) More recent.

(L) Way more recently, like the 9th or 10th century. I mean, everything that was going on before then was just a variety of Caesar myths and Caesar worship.

(Perceval) The initial development of Christianity, was it done or made in its initial form - its first development, let's say after Caesar - was that in a response to the deification of Caesar by the people, and his values?

A: Yes.

Q: (Chu) If it was glorified, then...

(Perceval) So that was the start of it.

A: Carotta is very close in his analysis of how language issues affected the transmission and distortions. If there are any villains it would be the Flavians and the Carolingians.

Q: (Pierre) So Carotta was right. The Flavians creating the Christian myth... And then the Carolingians after the collapse of the empire recreating the 2.0 version of Christianity.

(Perceval) Is the time scale that we have for the kind of Dark Ages, fall of Rome, is that more or less correct...?

(L) What do you mean? You mean is our time line...

(Perceval) In terms of our timeline, from the fall of Rome back to Caesar's death... from the cosmic disaster, those 500 years or whatever it is...

A: There were years added so often that it will take some hard work to sort it out!

Q: (L) Am I right in my idea that we can date the segments of the timeline by Halley's Comet? Is Halley's Comet regular enough back into those times that it can be relied on?

A: Yes

Q: (L) So, when they have Halley's Comet coming at these vastly expanded periods, then those are the periods where years have been added?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) And in some cases they're added, and in some cases they're subtracted. It's very strange. Like they can add 10, and then subtract 5. Overall there's a definite, I think that... I think that enough has been added that we're off by 200 or...

(Pierre) Maybe you can ask this question. Caesar was born roughly 2,114 years ago according to our official calendars. In reality, how many years ago was Caesar born?

A: 1635. {Difference of 479 years}

Q: [General oo-ing and ah-ing] (Perceval) The whole thing went so horribly wrong, we were thinking how did it last another 400 or 500 years?

(L) It didn't.

(Perceval) Yeah, it didn't. It lasted maybe 100.

(Pierre) Or, there was a collapse in 400 or 500 AD, and most of the added chunks are between 400-500 AD, and 1000 AD, as Fomenko suggests.

A: Check the artifacts. In some cases there were multiple "emperors" at the same time rather than sequential.

Q: (L) And there are even some alleged emperors who have no artifacts. They're just written down in the Historia Augusta, but nobody has ever found a single coin to attest to their existence!


(Atriedes) So, after Caesar died, things threw into chaos, and a bunch of despots popped up claiming control. Shortly thereafter, it fell...

(L) Well, there was Augustus, and there was that short period of things... he put things on a certain track, and that gave time for some things to develop. But I would say that after Caesar's death and before Augustus even managed to gain control, that there was some serious cataclysmic activity. I would say that Battle of Actium was a very suspicious event.

(Perceval) So you would say that those years that were added were between Caesar and the fall.

(L) There were some, yeah...

(Perceval) In that case, like in terms of Mike Bailey's tree ring growth thing, they mentioned in a previous session about most of Western Europe being set on fire by a fireball in 560...

(L) There were multiple events during this period.

(Perceval) But just for the dating of it, you'd think that was 1400 or 1500 years ago, or was it shorter? Was it closer to us?

(L) I think that was far more recent in our terms.

(Pierre) 5 centuries were added. We can ask: Out of those 5 centuries, how many were added before the collapse, and how many were added after the collapse?

(L) Let's come back to that after we've done a little more work on it. I think that their not going to hand us that one.

(Pierre) But from what they say, I think it's mostly before.

(Perceval) Makes sense.

(L) I think there was at least 100 years added before the collapse. I would say that the actual... or more.

(Pierre) You can almost fit everything because...

(L) I would say it's almost 200 years added before the collapse.

(Pierre) You can fit... there are 4 centuries that were added. Between Caesar's death, 44BC, and the collapse in 540 AD, you have more than 5 centuries [??? Very hard to hear Pierre here...].

(Chu) But according to Fomenko it was later.

(L) Yeah, because he wasn't understanding that they were recreating history after a collapse. So I mean, I think we can trace it as far as 410, and I think a whole lot of stuff would just duplicate it after that. Well, we'll come back to that, because now I want to ask the $64,000 question! Now, did Caesar ever reincarnate since that particular lifetime?

A: No.

Judging from what you wrote about your program, I think you made a valiant effort to start something of a trial and error approach to find some regularities in this mess -- but I'm no expert in these matters. We probably will have to wait until Data has read your posts, as he seems to be the main computer wizard around the database project.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

panca kanga said:
This is the Perl script I mentioned in the previous post.I could not attach it as a file so I have quoted it. The data files I used with it are attached.

panca kanga if you are interested to join the project you should read this thread to get updated about it. If you are still interested to join you could ask for an account. :cool2:

EDIT: Most important are Laura's and Data's posts. There are also posts mentioning Halley.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

I'm done reading Terra Terror: An Interdisciplinary Study of Earthquakes in Ancient Near Eastern Texts and the Hebrew Bible, the dissertation of Ryan Nathaniel Roberts from 2012 about the so-called Amos earthquake circa mid 8th century BCE (and much more).

It has been a fun read although the argument was very complicated. I learned a lot about earthquakes in general seen as a natural disaster, as a sociological event, as an act of god, and as an impetus for religious revival (life is religion, shock doctrine). I also learned a lot about how to read texts, how to explore scant sources, or how to reach tentative conclusions without stretching the material. I also came along a variety of rather recent references (books, articles) on all these matters which I had no knowledge of. So, all in all time well spent it seems.

As for the earthquake itself (or earthquakes, there probably could have been two within a decade or so), the following seems pertinent (page 275; PDF file page 296) [NB. bold is mine]:

Based on a critical evaluation of the current evidence identified with earthquake
damage, Deir ‘Alla and Rehov (and Dan upon further excavation) contain clear evidence of
seismic damage within the eighth century
. This is not to say that other sites such as Hazor (or
Safi) may contain damage, but it is not as telling as the evidence at Deir ‘Alla and Rehov. At the
same time, neither Deir ‘Alla nor Rehov has widespread damage in their mid eighth century
strata. The evidence is based on only what is left, largely where residents built over the existing
damage. Thus future excavations, especially those north of the Carmel Ridge must be attuned to
finding small sections of seismic damage in their mid eighth century strata.

This is the scientific part of the argument in its final summation. All the rest of his work concentrates on a wide variety of circumstantial evidence from every possible angle and source, ancient as well as modern, to enhance the probability and the plausibility of the Amos prophetic activities and the written remnants of them, being genuine and the real deal.

As far as I am concerned, the sum total of his arguments is convincing enough to advise that the database entries about this earthquake should be maintained for the time being, with this dissertation as the main supporting source for it (next to Flavius Josephus's mention of it).
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Zadig said:
I think, it’s better to post articles here, because the price is so expensive that most people can’t afford it.

Yea, totally! Let me know if there's anything else you (or anyone else) would need and don't have access to.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Palinurus said:
panca kanga said:
I thought there had been a specific thread opened on the subject of finding absolute dates with the help of the apparitions of Halley's comet. I can't find it so I guess the mentions were all posted here.

The discussion about that possibility started in the thread following Session July 12, 2014, but some of it spilled over into this one. Here is where it all started, but in order to find the scattered comments on it you will need to read that whole thread, I'm afraid:
...
Oh, I have been following this thread with a lot of interest and the bit of code I wrote was prompted by some early posts in which attempts were made to splice the time lines. I wanted to find a thread more directly related to Halley's Comet because this thread has moved away from the heavy handed approach of just hacking the timelines to see what fits and so talking about that now is just adding noise here.

Dirgni asked if I would like to join the database project. I am certainly sad that I am getting so much from the work of the forum without being able to offer anything useful in return. So, yes I am very tempted to apply to help but realistically my time for projects is committed else where and also, although I have recently had several consecutive months of easy internet access, in general my access is intermittent.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

I ran into a little tidbit which seems to stem from the personal family history of Flavius Josephus if I'm not completely mistaken.

It's about the death of Jonathan Maccabeus aka Jonathan Apphus in 143 BC. He was one of the leaders (161-143 BC) of the Hasmonean Dynasty and High Priest from 153-143 BC.

wikipedia said:
Capture by Diodotus Tryphon and death

Diodotus Tryphon went with an army to Judea and invited Jonathan to Scythopolis for a friendly conference, and persuaded him to dismiss his army of 40,000 men, promising to give him Ptolemais and other fortresses. Jonathan fell into the trap; he took with him to Ptolemais 1,000 men, all of whom were slain; he himself was taken prisoner.[11]

When Diodotus Tryphon was about to enter Judea at Hadid, he was confronted by the new Jewish leader, Simon Maccabaeus, ready for battle. Trypho, avoiding an engagement, demanded one hundred talents and Jonathan's two sons as hostages, in return for which he promised to liberate Jonathan. Although Simon did not trust Diodotus Tryphon, he complied with the request in order that he might not be accused of the death of his brother. But Diodotus Tryphon did not liberate his prisoner; angry that Simon blocked his way everywhere and that he could accomplish nothing, he executed Jonathan at Baskama, in the country east of the Jordan.[12] Jonathan was buried by Simon at Modi'in. Nothing is known of his two captive sons. One of his daughters was the ancestress of Josephus.[13]
(bold, mine)

In Antiquities of the Jews Book XIII, Chapter VI, § 6 (Loeb 13, 208-212) we read (bold, mine) with all the accustomed inaccuracies:

208 6. But when those that were in the citadel had sent to Trypho, and besought him to make haste and come to them, and to send them provisions, he prepared his cavalry as though he would be at Jerusalem that very night; but so great a quantity of snow fell in the night, that it covered the roads, and made them so deep, that there was no passing, especially for the cavalry. This hindered him from coming to Jerusalem; 209 whereupon Trypho removed thence, and came into Celesyria, and falling vehemently upon the land of Gilead, he slew Jonathan there; and when he had given order for his burial, he returned himself to Antioch. 210 However, Simon sent some to the city Basca to bring away his brother’s bones, and buried them in their own city Modin; and all the people made great lamentation over him. 211 Simon also erected a very large monument for his father and his brethren, of white and polished stone, and raised it a great height, and so as to be seen a long way off, and made cloisters about it, and set up pillars, which were of one stone apiece; a work it was wonderful to see. Moreover, he built seven pyramids also for his parents and his brethren, one for each of them, which were made very surprising, both for their largeness and beauty, 212 and which have been preserved to this day; and we know that it was Simon who bestowed so much zeal about the burial of Jonathan, and the building of these monuments for his relations. Now Jonathan died when he had been high priest four years and had been also the governor of his nation. And these were the circumstances that concerned his death.

I'm planning to enter this rather rare snowfall in Palestine/Jerusalem into the database under unusual weather, but I wanted to register my suspicion about this story as belonging to the family anecdotes of Josephus's ancestry here first for eventual comments on that.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

I just found this website, and thought that it could be useful, provided it is accurate:

http://www.longrangeweather.com/500ad.htm

One can choose any period of half a century and see what patterns arise. Though it is based on mainstream fake chronology.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Recently, I made an announcement elsewhere:

Palinurus said:
[...]

As it so happened, I read a lot this weekend about the dating problem of the so called dark decade in Roman history which supposedly runs from about 7 BCE to about 4 CE -- which could make up for the signaled 11 years missing, I suppose.

The reason for that was a rather obscure remark of Flavius Josephus about a lunar eclipse (Antiquities of the Jews, Book XVII, Chap. VI, § 4; Loeb 17, 167) in the context of the rebellion of Judas the Galilean cum suis against Herod the Greats application of a golden eagle above some entrance gate of the Temple, which eventually broadened into a full scale war: the so called Varus war in which Gaius Caesar (an adopted grandson of Augustus) also became involved.

I'm in the process of composing a post for the Historical Database thread with all the relevant details, but it will take a while to get it all sorted out because of the complexities involved: the death of Herod the Great (not in 4 BCE but in 1 BCE, apparently), his legacy and testament, his succession, several censuses and tax revolts, and much more.

Found several interesting sources about all that which I also will share over there.

Josephus writes, in the context of the golden eagle incident which sparked a cascade of several uprisings and eventually a full blown war:

167 But Herod deprived this Matthias of the high priesthood, and burnt the other Matthias, who had raised the sedition, with his companions, alive. And that very night there was an eclipse of the moon.

The translator, William Whiston, remarks in a note (bold, mine):

This eclipse of the moon (which is the only eclipse of either of the luminaries mentioned by our Josephus in any of his writings) is of the greatest consequence for the determination of the time for the death of Herod and Antipater, and for the birth and entire chronology of Jesus Christ. It happened March 13th, in the year of the Julian period 4710, and the 4th year before the Christian era. See its calculation by the rules of astronomy, at the end of the Astronomical Lectures, edit. Lat. p. 451, 452.

I took this as a severe warning that I might be opening yet another can of worms and started digging for more recent clues.

First I consulted the wiki list of High Priests to find it seemed to corroborate the standard time frame and the names given by Josephus:

Matthias ben Theophilus 5-4 BC
Joazar ben Boethus 4 BC (Sadducee)
Eleazar ben Boethus 4-3 BC (Sadducee)
Joshua ben Sie 3 BC - ?
Joazar ben Boethus (restored) ? - 6 CE (Sadducee)

Then I tried to find more about the two instigators of the golden eagle incident (bold, mine):

Josephus said:
149 2. There was one Judas, the son of Saripheus, and Matthias, the son of Margalothus, two of the most eloquent men among the Jews, and the most celebrated interpreters of the Jewish laws, and men wellbeloved by the people, because of their education of their youth; for all those that were studious of virtue frequented their lectures every day. 150 These men, when they found that the king’s distemper was incurable, excited the young men that they would pull down all those works which the king had erected contrary to the law of their fathers, and thereby obtain the rewards which the law will confer on them for such actions of piety; for that it was truly on account of Herod’s rashness in making such things as the law had forbidden, that his other misfortunes, and this distemper also, which was so unusual among mankind, and with which he was now afflicted, came upon him; 151 for Herod had caused such things to be made which were contrary to the law, of which he was accused by Judas and Matthias; for the king had erected over the great gate of the temple a large golden eagle, of great value, and had dedicated it to the temple. Now the law forbids those that propose to live according to it, to erect images or representations of any living creature. 152 So these wise men persuaded [their scholars] to pull down the golden eagle; alleging, that although they should incur any danger, which might bring them to their deaths, the virtue of the action now proposed to them would appear much more advantageous to them than the pleasures of life; since they would die for the preservation and observation of the law of their fathers; since they would also acquire an everlasting fame and commendation; since they would be both commended by the present generation, and leave an example of life that would never be forgotten to posterity; 153 since that common calamity of dying cannot be avoided by our living so as to escape any such dangers; that therefore it is a right thing for those who are in love with a virtuous conduct, to wait for that fatal hour by such behavior as may carry them out of the world with praise and honor; 154 and that this will alleviate death to a great degree, thus to come at it by the performance of brave actions, which bring us into danger of it; and at the same time to leave that reputation behind them to their children, and to all their relations, whether they be men or women, which will be of great advantage to them afterward.

Finding enough about them proved to be rather difficult --which seems odd for an incident of this magnitude-- but over time I found something that got the ball rolling (bold and italics in original; hyperlinks omitted):

Josephus (not Luke) Misdated Quirinius’s Census

Posted on December 25, 2012 by Jared Compton

John Rhoads argues in a recent article that it was Josephus, not Luke, who misdated Quirinius’s census. The gist of his piece is that the Judas whom Josephus associates with a tax revolt in A.D. 6 (Ant. 18.4–23) is the same Judas whom Josephus says was killed a decade or so earlier by Herod the Great (Ant. 17.148–67). Rhoads offers two main arguments in support of this thesis. First, he argues that the slightly different names given both Judases (Judas, the son of Saripheus, and Judas the Galilean) are actually two ways of referring to the same individual. Second, he argues that Judas’s tax revolt occurred during Herod’s reign, not following it. Rhoads’s arguments are a bit complicated, so I’ve tried to sort them out below. If he’s right, then many recent attempts to exonerate Luke are largely unnecessary, since Luke doesn’t need to be harmonized with Josephus. Whether or not he is right, however, is a question I’ll have to leave for another day (or, more likely, someone else).

Argument #1: Judas the son of Saripheus = Judas the Galilean.

In Ant. 17.147–67, Josephus describes the activity of Judas, the son of Saripheus, while in the parallel accounts in Wars (1.648), he’s called the son of Sepphoraeos. Alternate readings of the Antiquities account, however, lead Rhoads to conclude that the Wars account is the more accurate of the two. This suggests that Judas, the son of Saripheus/Sepphoraeos was likely the son of a well-known inhabitant of Sepphoris, the capital of Galilee (cf. Ναζωραῖος in Luke 18:37)—perhaps the Galilean bandit Hezekiah, who is identified as Judas the Galilean’s father in another place (Ant. 17.269–85; cf. cf. Schürer 1:381). In short, Judas, the son of a well-known Sepphorian in Ant. 17.148–67 is, plausibly, Judas the Galilean in Ant. 18.4–23 (cf. Wars 2.118). What further adds to the plausibility of this identification is the fact that in both accounts Judas is described as a teacher, surrounded by disciples, and aided by another rabbi.

Argument #2: The tax revolt occurred during Herod’s reign.

Coponius. Rhoads argues that Josephus incorrectly assumed that Coponius’s presence, alongside Quirinius, meant that Quirinius’s census took place in A.D. 6, since that was when Coponius became prefect of Judea (see Ant. 18.1–23; Wars 2.117–18). The problem with this, however, was that Coponius could not have been prefect at this time since Josephus’s narrative presents him as subservient to Quirinius. Quirinius, e.g., is said to have been of consular rank, whereas Coponius, along with others who were sent with Quirinius, was of the lower, equestrian rank. Had Coponius been prefect, he would have answered only to the governor of Syria, which Quirinius was not. Quirinius, rather, is described as a special imperial envoy, in something of a complementary role to Syria’s governor (a legate juridicus; governor = legati pro praetore). What’s more, Josephus says that in his administrative capacity Coponius had “dominion over the Jews,” which would overstate his jurisdiction in A.D. 6, since it did not include Antipas and Philip’s territories. If Coponius was indeed active in Judea prior to his prefecture, then this probably also explains the otherwise anomalous reference to his presence at the trial of Herod’s son Antipater in 5 B.C. (Ant. 17.134 v.l.).

Sabinus. Rhoads argues that Sabinus, who was present in Jerusalem at the time of Herod’s death, is another name for Quirinius (see Ant. 17.221, 18.1–2; Wars 2.16). Both were special envoys of the emperor, both were of consular rank, both were concerned with Judea’s tax revenue, and both were in charge of settling Herod’s estate. Rhoads suggests that both names may have been cognomens (i.e., an extra name—often a nickname—given to a Roman citizen), since such names were often ethnically based. Quirinius, e.g., may have been what the Romans called Publius Sulpicius, as a result of the deity associated with his Sabinian heritage (i.e., Quirinus), a heritage Rhoads infers from the fact that Quirinius was born in Lavinium, a city SW of Rome that had a significant Sabine population. Sabinus, on the other hand, may have been how he was known among the Semites of Herod’s court.

Joazar. Rhoads argues that the high priest removed immediately following Herod’s death is the high priest Joazar who was removed by Quirinius immediately following Judas’s tax revolt (see Ant. 17.164b, 206, 339b; 18.26b). Rhoads suggests that Joazar was appointed high priest by Herod after Judas’s armory raid, not after his eagle incident, as Josephus assumes. This means that Joazar was high priest during Judas’s tax revolt and eagle incident/execution, which followed. Rhoads then notes that the high priest deposed during the time of Herod’s funeral and at the behest of Judas’s followers corresponds with Josephus’s reports elsewhere of Archelaus’s removal, shortly after Herod’s death, of the high priest Joazar and with his report of Quirinius’s removal of a priest with the same name following Judas’s tax revolt. In short, Joazar was priest during Judas’s revolt against the tax administered by Coponius and Sabinus/Quirinius during the latter years of Herod’s reign.

As I noted earlier, I’ll leave off a full-scale review for the time being. I did, however, want to conclude by noting a handful of lingering questions that I suspect will need to be part of any fuller engagement of Rhoads’s thesis: (1) Why does Josephus say Joazar was succeeded by two different persons if Joazar was appointed and deposed just once (see Ant. 17.399b and 18.26b)? (2) If Joazar was, in fact, the priest deposed by Archelaus to satisfy his followers’ demands (Ant. 17.206), why does Josephus’s other report of this incident, which explicitly mentions Joazar, say Archelaus deposed him for “having risen-up with the partisans” (Ant. 17.339b)? (3) Why does the catalogue of disturbances in 17.269–85 fail to mention the eagle incident, especially if, as Rhoads argues, it followed the armory raid incident?

Note: For another approach to the Quirinius incident, see “Once More: Quirinius’s Census.” And, for the historicity of another part of the nativity narrative, see “Star of Wonder, Star of Light.”

The Rhoads article: _http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/54/54-1/JETS_54-1_65-87_Rhoads.pdf

Jared Compton - Once More: Quirinius's Census: _http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2009/11/01/once-more-quiriniuss-census.aspx
Jared Compton - Star of Wonder, Star of Light: _http://dbts.edu/blog/star-of-wonder-star-of-light/

Judas the Galilean:
Laura's post in the Was Julius Caesar the real Jesus Christ? thread
_http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/judas-unterbrink.html
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_of_Galilee

Matthias, the son of Margalothus:
nothing found so far.

To be continued...
 
Re: Historical Events Database

To understand the intricacies of the situation around the precise date of death of Herod the Great and the relevance of certain Roman census activities related with his demise, the following is pertinent:

Censuses were of different types, scopes and purposes. Regular censuses for tax purposes were held with a five year interval. The main census occurred every twenty years with three consecutive 'update' censuses in between, as I've understood. During the reign of Herod the Great his kingdom wasn't liable to direct taxation by Rome because Herod raised the taxes himself and his subjects had no affair with Roman census practices. Therefore they had no impetus for riots, rebellion or uprisings on this account during his life.

This situation changed by and after his death: as he was a client king appointed by the Roman Senate, the Romans were inevitably involved in the settlement of his affairs and in appointing or approving his successor(s). They therefore had to send in someone with the authority and skills to take an administrative 'snapshot' of the state of his belongings, inspect his last will and testament and so on, in order to be able to take informed decisions on these matters. Every time the situation changed again thereafter, like when Herod Archelaus was deposed and Judea became a Roman province, this 'snapshot' had to be renewed as well -- outside of and above the regular five year census cycle, mind you.

However, something else happened in about 3-2 BCE when emperor Augustus received (and accepted) the honorary title of Pater Patriae. He took this occasion as an opportunity to institute a one-time obligation for all Roman citizens and other subjects of taking an oath of allegiance to him personally. So, this wasn't a regular census for tax purposes but rather a 'roll call' for taking inventory of his stock as it were. This different type of taking inventory combined with the oath of allegiance was the 'census' the Bible talks about (in the Gospel of Luke) and it took place when Herod the Great was still alive, according to the sources we are about to discuss. Part of this specific and deviant procedure was the obligation to register in ones ancestral town of birth which prompted Joseph and Mary allegedly to travel to Bethlehem -- which they wouldn't have had to do in any of the other cases.

Therefore, around the death of Herod the Great there were at least two, and possibly three census like activities:

* roll call for taking an oath of allegiance to Augustus as Pater Patriae
* inventory of Herod's state of affairs (testament and succession)
* regular Roman census for direct Roman taxation

Most extant sources are unclear about what is which because of being unacquainted with the proper terminology; so things get mixed up or lumped together. Luckily, I have found a few sources which seem to sort this all out pretty neatly. Take note that the main controversy concerning Herod's demise is either in 4 BCE (mainstream historians) or in 1 BCE (alternative scholars) depending on what the exact date would be of the lunar eclipse Josephus talks about -- as Herod, although rather sickly already, apparently was still alive and kicking when that happened.

We now come to an important source to sort this out: The STAR That ASTONISHED The World by Dr Ernest L. Martin.

This book was also mentioned already by ka in the Was Julius Caesar the real Jesus Christ? thread.

I cannot copy/paste anything out of this book for the following reason:

ASK is grateful to our contributors who make it possible for this book to be posted free Online for you. It is to be read and printed for personal study only, and is made available for study search on the ASK website. Any use of this book other than for your personal study without the express written permission by Associates for Scriptural Knowledge is strictly forbidden.

Those who are interested should read on line, and/or order the book here. It's not available via amazon.com last time I looked.

The following chapters are of interest now IMO:

Chapter 7: The Dark Decade in History
Chapter 8: Astronomy and the Death of King Herod
Chapter 9: The Lunar Eclipse of Josephus
Chapter 10: The War That No One Can Find
Chapter 11: The Two Governorships of Quintilius Varus
Chapter 12: The Census of Quintilius Varus
Chapter 13: The Chronology of Josephus

Appendix 1: Quintilius Varus and the Lapis Tiburtinus
Appendix 2: The Question of Gaius Caesar


Other sources:

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_governors_of_Syria
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publius_Quinctilius_Varus
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Caesar
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quirinius
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius


To be continued...
 

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