Historical Events Database - History

[Zadig]

Re: Historical Events Database

Yeah, that's it. I did a second file search this morning with no result. I've got some papers about Hydatius, and a couple books that refer to him (on historiography), but not the chronicle itself.

I will get it next week and I think we will have it ready next week too :)

It's ok Oxajil, I went to the library today, and I will scan the book.

 

[Oxajil]

Re: Historical Events Database

Yeah, that's it. I did a second file search this morning with no result. I've got some papers about Hydatius, and a couple books that refer to him (on historiography), but not the chronicle itself.

I will get it next week and I think we will have it ready next week too :)

It's ok Oxajil, I went to the library today, and I will scan the book.

Ok, thanks Zadig!

 

[Voyageur]

Re: Historical Events Database

Yeah, that's it. I did a second file search this morning with no result. I've got some papers about Hydatius, and a couple books that refer to him (on historiography), but not the chronicle itself.

I will get it next week and I think we will have it ready next week too :)

It's ok Oxajil, I went to the library today, and I will scan the book.

Fwiw, If a pdf is more useful, I see the book, The "Chronicle" of Hydatius and the "Consularia Constantinopolitana" published by the Classical Association of Canada here, downloadable for $10 bux.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Yeah, that's it. I did a second file search this morning with no result. I've got some papers about Hydatius, and a couple books that refer to him (on historiography), but not the chronicle itself.

I will get it next week and I think we will have it ready next week too :)

It's ok Oxajil, I went to the library today, and I will scan the book.

Fwiw, If a pdf is more useful, I see the book, The "Chronicle" of Hydatius and the "Consularia Constantinopolitana" published by the Classical Association of Canada here, downloadable for $10 bux.

That's a 3 page book review you get for ten bux. Not the book.

 

[Voyageur]

Re: Historical Events Database

Fwiw, If a pdf is more useful, I see the book, The "Chronicle" of Hydatius and the "Consularia Constantinopolitana" published by the Classical Association of Canada here, downloadable for $10 bux.

That's a 3 page book review you get for ten bux. Not the book.

Oh darn, did not catch this (pp. 273-276), apologies for the inaccuracy.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Fwiw, If a pdf is more useful, I see the book, The "Chronicle" of Hydatius and the "Consularia Constantinopolitana" published by the Classical Association of Canada here, downloadable for $10 bux.

That's a 3 page book review you get for ten bux. Not the book.

Oh darn, did not catch this (pp. 273-276), apologies for the inaccuracy.

jstor sells papers and reviews for exorbitant prices.

 

[Zadig]

Re: Historical Events Database

Dirgni, you can delete my entries of Fredegar. I used an old french edition, you use a modern english translation.

 

[Palinurus]

Re: Historical Events Database

Having reached in the Antiquities of the Jews the scene of Moses at the burning bush (unusual fire/plant prodigy) --which means I've already passed by the assumed Egyptian famine during the supposed co-reign of Joseph in Egypt (400 years or so earlier)-- I now have to pose the following question in general: should I file these fictional and/or mythical biblical events as described in the words of Josephus (rather frequently at variance with the biblical versions of them) into the database when they describe some sort of 'fitting' phenomenon, or do these not belong there as for instance finding adequate dates for them is next to impossible (Josephus gives no specific dates, only broadly sketched era's which don't really add up nor match conventional dating, or whatever)?

I'm just asking to make sure my own hunch to not post these at all, would be the right decision.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Having reached in the Antiquities of the Jews the scene of Moses at the burning bush (unusual fire/plant prodigy) --which means I've already passed by the assumed Egyptian famine during the supposed co-reign of Joseph in Egypt (400 years or so earlier)-- I now have to pose the following question in general: should I file these fictional and/or mythical biblical events as described in the words of Josephus (rather frequently at variance with the biblical versions of them) into the database when they describe some sort of 'fitting' phenomenon, or do these not belong there as for instance finding adequate dates for them is next to impossible (Josephus gives no specific dates, only broadly sketched era's which don't really add up nor match conventional dating, or whatever)?

I'm just asking to make sure my own hunch to not post these at all, would be the right decision.

Don't put any biblical events in because they do not have secure dates or even remotely secure. Heck, they are mythical past. If you have read Gmirkin and Louden, you realize that much of the bible is a rip-off of the Odyssey and my guess is that much more is a rip-off of Roman legends. So, none of that. Only what Josephus recorded from his own time, please.

 

[Palinurus]

Re: Historical Events Database

Don't put any biblical events in because they do not have secure dates or even remotely secure. Heck, they are mythical past. If you have read Gmirkin and Louden, you realize that much of the bible is a rip-off of the Odyssey and my guess is that much more is a rip-off of Roman legends. So, none of that. Only what Josephus recorded from his own time, please.

Okay, Laura. Fair enough. Thank you for your prompt answer. I'll proceed accordingly.

 

[Dirgni]

Re: Historical Events Database

Dirgni, you can delete my entries of Fredegar. I used an old french edition, you use a modern english translation.

Thank you Zadig for your confirmation. Til now I used your Fredegar entries, added the English text in quote box and replaced your French source data with my English source data. Sometimes I changed keywords and place. So your entries will stay. :)

I have got an old German version, too. Sometimes there were differences with year and event between English / French verision and German version. E.g. For the year 598 there was plague mentioned in the English version and a heavy hailstorm is mentioned. The latin quote included in my source: " Eo anno cladis glandolaria Marsilia et reliquas Prouinciae ciuitates grauiter uastauit." So I still have to check this inconsistencies between English / German with Latin version.

 

[Palinurus]

Re: Historical Events Database

Again I need some assistance with a passage in Josephus and again it's mainly because of his obscure dating methods, or rather the lack of same. From Antiquities of the Jews (Book III, Chapter XV, § 3; Loeb 3, 317-322) in the context of the greatness of Moses the man, the prophet and the law giver:

317 3. But this man was admirable for his virtue, and powerful in making men give credit to what he delivered, not only during the time of his natural life, but even there is still no one of the Hebrews who does not act even now as if Moses were present, and ready to punish him if he should do any thing that is indecent; nay, there is no one but is obedient to what laws he ordained, although they might be concealed in their transgressions. 318 There are also many other demonstrations that his power was more than human, for still some there have been, who have come from the parts beyond Euphrates, a journey of four months, through many dangers, and at great expenses, in honor of our temple; and yet, when they had offered their oblations, could not partake of their own sacrifices, because Moses had forbidden it, by somewhat in the law that did not permit them, or somewhat that had befallen them, which our ancient customs made inconsistent therewith; 319 some of these did not sacrifice at all, and others left their sacrifices in an imperfect condition; nay, many were not able, even at first, so much as to enter into the temple, but went their ways in this state, as preferring a submission to the laws of Moses before the fulfilling of their own inclinations, even when they had no fear upon them that anybody could convict them, but only out of a reverence to their own conscience. 320 Thus this legislation, which appeared to be divine, made this man to be esteemed as one superior to his own nature. Nay, further, a little before the beginning of this war, when Claudius was emperor of the Romans, and Ismael was our high priest, and when so great a famine was come upon us, that onetenth deal [of wheat] was sold for four drachmae, 321 and when no less than seventy cori of flour were brought into the temple, at the feast of unleavened bread, (these cori are thirty-one Sicilian, but forty-one Athenian medimni,) not one of the priests was so hardy as to eat one crumb of it, even while so great a distress was upon the land; and this out of a dread of the law, and of that wrath which God retains against acts of wickedness, even when no one can accuse the actors. 322 Whence we are not to wonder at what was then done, while to this very day the writings left by Moses have so great a force, that even those that hate us do confess, that he who established this settlement was God, and that it was by the means of Moses, and of his virtue; but as to these matters, let every one take them as he thinks fit.

The problems with this famine are:

* the database currently has no mention at all of any famine in that time period from any source
* Claudius was emperor from 41 - 54 AD
* Ismael was High Priest in 15 - 16 AD and again in 58 - 62 AD
* These dates do not match
* Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus was emperor from 54 - 68 AD and sometimes just named Claudius because of his great-uncle who adopted him as his heir
* Nero was the emperor who initiated the military campaign against the Jews fought by the Flavians Vespasian and Titus
* The only well known famine in Judea cq. Jerusalem was in 45 AD which is far too early ("...a little before the beginning of this war...", which was 60 AD)
* Josephus himself was born in 37 AD in Jerusalem and would have been a direct witness to this famine whenever it happened, and to the reported behavior of the priests

What to make of this mess in terms of a possible database entry?

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

I think I would put it in this way:

Let's assume that it was under Nero, but J referred to him as Claudius.

Put the date range as 54 to 60 AD, location Palestine/Judaea

Put the text in the quote box and exactly what you have written about the problem in the notes box.

Good job!

 

[Dirgni]

Re: Historical Events Database

Is there something mentioned in the text before or after your quoted one, which may help to narrow the timeframe?

If the famine was before the war in 60 AD and there was Ismael and a emperor named Claudius then the famine could have been between 58 AD and 60 AD (ca. 59 + / - 1 year). This is the second time Ismael was High Priest and during the time Nero (Claudius) was emperor.

Was there any high food prices or food shortages or any wrath of God mentioned elsewhere?

In database in 59 AD there is a thunderbolt (entry 1763) and in 60 AD there are earthquake, unusual weather and comet events (entries 1405, 1406, 244). Could fit to your famine. There were quite many comets (= wrath of God?) between 60 AD and 66 AD, too. The fifties AD were also quite 'interesting' times. These were no easy times for normal people back then.

I would mention your difficulties with dating in other notes field.


Just my 2 cents.

 

[Dirgni]

Re: Historical Events Database

Besides the comet Halley there could other regular events taken for correcting history timeline.


If we get enough solar and lunar eclipse dates we may be able to use them.
Disadvantage: We may have difficulties to distinguish real eclipse events from 'dust etc. in the air / space' events.


When Easter and or connected holidays come with a date in the original source text then we may be able to use it for dating corrections.
Disadvantage: There were many disagreements between East and West and different Christian groups about this - especially in the first centuries AD. The computation is quite complex at least for people in the first millennium. People back then may or may not got it right first place and depending who did the computation. From Nicaea in 325 there was some consensus but at least in the West it took until the 8th century before there was some common understanding concerning Easter date in all Western countries. For these dates we may have to go into the original language (Latin) sources as modern translators tend to give dates for 'holidays connected to Easter' that are not in the sources. Later scribes may or may not have updated the dates given by earlier manuscripts. I tend to the opinion that scribes meddling with history "could have been too lazy" to compute Easter dates new.


Holidays and days connected with Easter date:

(Carnival)
Lent: 40 day period before Easter
Invocabit / Invocavit: 1st Sunday in Lent
Reminiscere: 2nd Sunday in Lent
Oculi: 3rd Sunday in Lent
Laetare: 4th Sunday in Lent
Judica: 5th Sunday in Lent
Palm Sunday: 1 week before Easter Sunday; 6th Sunday in Lent
Good Friday
Easter Sunday
Easter Week
Quasimodogeniti: first Sunday after Easter
Domini: 2nd Sunday after Easter
Jubilate: 3rd Sunday after Easter
Kantate: 4th Sunday after Easter
Vocem jucunditatis/Rogate: 5th Sunday after Easter
Exaudi: 6th Sunday after Easter
Ascension Day: 39 days after Easter
Pentecost: 49 days after Easter
Corpus Christi: 60 days after Easter

Dionysius Exiguus' Easter table (532 - 626): _http://www.janzuidhoek.net/diony2.htm
Computus: _https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computus
Easter controversy: _https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_controversy