How to make "objective art"

[paralleloscope]

I like your sketch like style, which I guess is the area you put most of your focus in? The two ideas you have posted in this thread have left me a confused as to what exactly the main point is being conveyed. Obama's maid works for the NSA which is the reason for all the stuff swept under the rug, but what about Obama (who comes off clean enough) ?

 

[Faith]

Obama's maid works for the NSA which is the reason for all the stuff swept under the rug, but what about Obama (who comes off clean enough) ?

Basically yes :P But I guess the idea is not very significant: Smiling and pretending that everything is in order while chaos has just being covered up. I added the same image with simpler captions... not sure if it's better this way.

I like your sketch like style, which I guess is the area you put most of your focus in?

Thank you, yes! Your comment made me think. I tend to get carried away with aesthetic aspects like style, atmosphere, composition, posing etc that seem to stand in the way of communicating a clear massage. That's why I decided to sketch such ideas first and find out if the idea itself is worth it. In this case meaning is more important than style.

 

[Faith]

Thanks for your input, Intothefield :)

This remind me the chapter of "Beelzebub Tales" in which G. talks about theatre and it's origin:
He says that in the beginning, actors where experimenting different techniques to put themselves in someone else shoes really reproducing physically,emotionally and mentally the attitude of different kinds of men. This calls me to a track, in the field of theatre, that one of the teacher of my counseling school it's following: linking the characters of the Commedia dell' arte to the Enneatypes, meaning that each particular character shows certain characteristic, personality traits or ways to react toward reality. Actors of this old style used to spend their entire life playing just one character writing giant pamphlets where they established codified actions and reactions to other character.
I'm not a big fan of the Enneagram theory about personality traits but this mostly to say that a search for objectiveness start as a search and observation as the same it's for ourself.
Like first master the instrument with which you do art with then maybe you can begin to really DO.

I find that quite interesting: Developing a character play as a technique to put yourself into someone else's shoes and to explore the scope of perception and interaction.

To me this question it's tricky and only got me stuck. Right now I surrender to the idea of not being able to do anything objective and at the same time looking towards what I've done after it's done to detect the subjectivity.

Much like G. said that before you can remember yourself try to remember that you cannot :)
Maybe a good question to start with before exhibiting something can be: is this work of art externally considered?
Does it include the experience of someone else or just mine?

There were a few occasions when I did illustrations for a newspaper. I got a phone call and the picture editor told me what the article, that hasn't been written yet, is about and I had to come up with a catchy idea to illustrate the article. The image needed to communicate the idea in a straight and instantaneous way. When the reader turns the page and he sees the picture he must know what the article is about without the need of deciphering the image first. I sent him some sketches, he picked one, told me what to change and what to keep and I finalized it in one day. The editors experience and skills in deciding if the illustration delivers the message well enough helped greatly to get the job done. We worked as a team. By combining different talents in a team the goal of creating an objective illustration, that can be understood by everyone, can be achieved more easily.

I discovered that when I'm working alone I tend to go astray because of identification issues leading to no longer seeing the woods for the trees. An example would be that a certain aesthetic element in the working process is fascinating but doesn't serve the message and stands in its way. Maybe it's an interesting shadow or a nice shape or character pose, something that needs to be sacrificed/ changed in order to serve the overall purpose. That can be very painful to an artist. It's an inner battle between subjective temptations and the objective to focus on, like a steersman who tries to use/ counteract the wind and the ocean currents, if he ever wants to reach home and not some fantastic island. I guess that is a reason why my ideas turn out to be not clear enough and even misleading.

 

[Miss.K]

I tend to get carried away with aesthetic aspects like style, atmosphere, composition, posing etc that seem to stand in the way of communicating a clear massage.

Perhaps try (not saying it's easy, but in objective art according to G. nothing is coincidental, if I remember right) to make light/shade/composition/posing etc. to support the message you want the receiver to understand. Make clear to yourself what you want to say, and then think how to say that by composition when you compose, and with the pose you choose, the shading and so on..
Then all will make the message clearer, instead of standing in the way, I think.

:)

 

[wanderer]

I'm a songwriter, and I struggle with this issue too. In these times artists should be creating works that matter. On the other hand, if you are presenting ideas that don't correspond to the audience's belief systems in an "in your face" manner you will lose them immediately. You end up preaching to the choir.

If one's purpose is only to make art the pleases you and the those few who are on your wavelength that's fine. If not then a lot more subtlety is required, I think. Your true message must be hidden within an outer message that will be more widely accessible. Your art must contain multiple levels of meaning.

I have always followed the example of poets like St. John of the Cross and Rumi who used earthly love as a metaphor for love of the divine. How to translate that into intellectual/political subjects that are so critical at this time still eludes me.

I don't intend this as a critique of your art in any way, just expressing how this topic resonates with me.

 

[A Jay]

I have always followed the example of poets like St. John of the Cross and Rumi who used earthly love as a metaphor for love of the divine. How to translate that into intellectual/political subjects that are so critical at this time still eludes me.

One example could be that you're trying to live your life in harmony with another person, but the other person is constantly telling you how to live your life even though theirs is in shambles. Which could be written as just a simple little story of you in an apartment constantly cleaning up after your significant other who is constantly saying how much of a slob you are and how you should be more tidy like them. I think the parallel between this and how the US acts is pretty blatant for those that know, and it can be worded to be quite the catchy R&B song, I think.

Is this an example of what you're talking about?

 

[wanderer]

One example could be that you're trying to live your life in harmony with another person, but the other person is constantly telling you how to live your life even though theirs is in shambles. Which could be written as just a simple little story of you in an apartment constantly cleaning up after your significant other who is constantly saying how much of a slob you are and how you should be more tidy like them. I think the parallel between this and how the US acts is pretty blatant for those that know, and it can be worded to be quite the catchy R&B song, I think.

Is this an example of what you're talking about?

Yes, precisely.

I recently wrote a country song, the first verse goes

Somebody told me you've been stepping out
Said he saw you together there ain't no doubt
I guess I should have noticed a long time ago
But I'm always the last to know

It goes on in that vein for 3 more verses and a bridge. What I'm really getting at is the human characteristic of being blinded by our beliefs, a topic that I find endlessly fascinating. I say nothing about the political ramifications, etc.

I've found that what works for me is to start with the personal and move towards the universal.

I also follow my muse, I call her the Goddess of Song, and write whatever is given to me. I only release some of to the world, but if a song persistently bugs me in spite of my trying to ignore it I'll eventually sit down and write it. Sometimes that takes decades

A song about psychopaths is on my todo list. That shouldn't be hard to do. But songs about bank fraud, immunization, cometary destruction, etc... And the country which shall not be named...

I like your song idea, wanna co-write?

 

[denekin]

forget-me-not, I like your drawings, and I think your intended message comes through clearly. The teacher kneeling by the tree is very effective...

 

[Faith]

I tend to get carried away with aesthetic aspects like style, atmosphere, composition, posing etc that seem to stand in the way of communicating a clear massage.

Perhaps try (not saying it's easy, but in objective art according to G. nothing is coincidental, if I remember right) to make light/shade/composition/posing etc. to support the message you want the receiver to understand. Make clear to yourself what you want to say, and then think how to say that by composition when you compose, and with the pose you choose, the shading and so on..
Then all will make the message clearer, instead of standing in the way, I think.

:)

Yes. Thanks for the suggestion. So it's basically about keeping the focus on the main goal. I guess a more dispassionate and pragmatic attitude would help. I need to remember that while I'm working on something. That's the tricky part. It's like a practice in self remembering, isn't it? I'm wondering... sometimes my wish to picture something in a perfect way limits my options. For example: I need a certain pose or gesture to communicate a specific action and it's too difficult for me to invent it, so I start using photo references, which don't exactly fit the requirements. That might lead to bad compromises for the sake of "perfectionism". The end result might look more realistic but it doesn't serve the message so well. If I want to find the best way to translate an idea into picture it's better to free myself completely from anything that isn't really necessary to convey the point. I think making thumbnail sketches helps a lot in that respect.

 

[Faith]

forget-me-not, I like your drawings, and I think your intended message comes through clearly. The teacher kneeling by the tree is very effective...

Thanks? :) I'm glad you like it. I'm still not sure if the dramatic three panel version or the one with the tree and the teacher is more effective. But I like that one too. :/

 

[Faith]

If one's purpose is only to make art the pleases you and the those few who are on your wavelength that's fine. If not then a lot more subtlety is required, I think. Your true message must be hidden within an outer message that will be more widely accessible. Your art must contain multiple levels of meaning.

Thats an interesting point: Meet the person, you want to address, at the place he is, so to speak.

 

[Miss.K]

So it's basically about keeping the focus on the main goal. I guess a more dispassionate and pragmatic attitude would help. I need to remember that while I'm working on something. That's the tricky part. It's like a practice in self remembering, isn't it?

hehe that was funny, and yes I think it is kind of the same thing as selfremembering to remember to have a more dispassionate and pragmatic attitude (and to remember what one is drawing)

I'm wondering... sometimes my wish to picture something in a perfect way limits my options. For example: I need a certain pose or gesture to communicate a specific action and it's too difficult for me to invent it, so I start using photo references, which don't exactly fit the requirements. That might lead to bad compromises for the sake of "perfectionism". The end result might look more realistic but it doesn't serve the message so well. If I want to find the best way to translate an idea into picture it's better to free myself completely from anything that isn't really necessary to convey the point. I think making thumbnail sketches helps a lot in that respect.

I think almost everybody who is good at drawing nowadays use photo references. I don't even think it is considered cheeting anymore. But I understand what you mean by bad compromises for the sake of perfection. (I've sometimes made 10 drawings of the same drawing, just to realize that the first rough was the best, so all the rest was just ruining it by perfection)

I might be wrong, but I think probably you could give yourself some confidence (more self confidence) as you are very good at drawing, and like sport, or playing music, drawing is also a confidence thing, not just a skill thing, and you have plenty of skill. So perhaps you can do more than you think in terms of inventing (most people won't be as critical of your drawing as yourself, in fact most people don't know how to draw so they won't see what you see) ,
-and also though it is a very difficult exercise that hurts a bit; making a bad drawing once in a while, is very good training in getting rid of selfimportance.

-also sometimes drawings change with time (a drawing one thought was good while making it, seems not so good a year later, and sometimes a drawing one thought was bad while making it is actually quite good a year later) so one can't really count on it, -or perhaps that's just me...

and yes thumbnail sketches are quite helpful as things often look different on paper than in the imagination, so it's good to try it out first. (just sucks when the thumbnail turns out to be the best version of the drawing ;)

 

[wanderer]

Thats an interesting point: Meet the person, you want to address, at the place he is, so to speak.

I attended a seminar by a successful songwriter a couple of years ago who said that making a person think was highest form of art (songwriting in this case). Making people feel was the low end of the scale, it's easy to do. Since most of my "art" was all about expressing feeling I had a hard time with this.

Most people hate to think IMO, and will do anything to avoid it. In my personal life I don't think I've ever succeeded in making anyone think. You have to trick them.

I think you have to use the standard mind control technique of entrainment. This sounds ugly, I know, but entrainment is a tool, not necessarily evil in itself. Devotional chanting is entrainment, but for a higher purpose. In the movie Marjoe (_www.imdb.com/title/tt0068924/) he talks about the conscious use of entrainment in an evangelical setting, building up the frenzy until a tap on the forehead will have even a nonbeliever falling down and speaking in tongues.

I've always thought of it as moving up the chakras. If you can get the lower chakras vibrating you can move the energy upwards, as far as the individual is capable of going. So if you can get their ass moving or their heart throbbing that's a starting point. For me really good music will grab me in this way and move upwards until I feel like there's a beam of light shining out of the top of my head (the crown chakra).

I don't exactly know how that would relate to thinking, I'm still trying to figure that out, but I think you have start at a lower common denominator, the lower centers, and work up from there. Most of your audience won't have the ability to go any further but some will, and you've given them all a gift that they received according to their ability.

I'm not a visual person so visual art doesn't usually have that effect on me, except once at a Monet exhibit, so I don't know how my theory applies there.

 

[Faith]

I might be wrong, but I think probably you could give yourself some confidence (more self confidence) as you are very good at drawing, and like sport, or playing music, drawing is also a confidence thing, not just a skill thing, and you have plenty of skill. So perhaps you can do more than you think in terms of inventing (most people won't be as critical of your drawing as yourself, in fact most people don't know how to draw so they won't see what you see) ,

Thanks Miss.K :) Your post gave me much food for thought. I guess I am lacking self confidence. It's funny... My drawings have always been pretty small actually and the gray value of the lines is quite light as if I wanted to hide them, always preferring small formats and I hate when people are looking over my shoulder. Like my handwriting. HAHA! You need a loupe to be able to read it.

I feel uncomfortable making sketches when my art director is around. Why is that? He is really good at drawing and very experienced. When he sketches something it's already quite perfect in terms of anatomy, expression of shape, style, perspective... I admire his work. He is a master of inventing stuff, characters, animals, architecture, props... To work with him is quite challenging. I'm not that fast and not that skilled but I'm learning a great deal from the collaboration. He is a really nice guy, quite modest. I'm so happy to be there. He is the most honest artist I know, honest in terms of rather using his imagination than relying on reference material so much. In his career he focused on drawing things from imagination. He is a good observer of human nature and very funny also. I on the other hand spent more time on faking what I couldn't imagine, like using my digital camera for instance, staging poses, facial expressions, gestures, drapery, shadows... or I used 3d-software like 3dMax and Poser, started modeling difficult objects and used these models as direct reference or I created collage mockups from photographs. There are certainly many legitimate ways of getting realistic results. There were allways artists who used models and sophisticated staging setups and photograph's, so what? ...but I discovered that it makes you dependant and it limits your options sometimes. It also can be very time consuming. Artists like the AD who mastered the art of drawing from imagination are less limited, faster and have much more freedom of expression. When I first met this guy I was quite intimidated and part of me felt like a fraud. It's like bridging the gap of real skill when using those reference techniques.

I feel like a musician who learned to program computers to do the job of real musicians instead of playing the instruments himself, you know, in terms of electronic music. I'm talking about a friend of mine who finally realized that he won't reach his goal that way. He was looking for ways to express himself and ended up feeling quite limited by sample-material and the stiffness of constructing melodies and beats like an architect. Then he started to play the guitar and worked hard to finally become a "real" musician, who can express himself freely by just playing what he feels, whatever melody comes to his mind. Hasn't that been my goal as well? He even combines the best of both worlds triggering synthesizers and effects with his guitar.

To some degree his music and the work of my AD represent what I was trying to achieve all those years but I feel that I followed a less honest and also less effective approach. If I had spend that much time and effort on traditional drawing lessons I would have gained much more freedom of expression by now. Ok, maybe so... but is it necessary to feel bad about it? I've edited this post many times to find out what the real issue is.

Why do I feel uncomfortable when my AD is around and why are my sketches small and light? I guess it's because I don't want anyone to see what little I can do without my electronic prothesis and devices and tricks. I feel naked without them. But that fear is kind of exaggerated and shows that I feel ashamed for myself, for being less perfect. Again it comes down to feelings of insufficiency and the need for perfection. I put so much self worth into being perfect that I feel ashamed when I can't live up to those exaggerated expectations, as if being who I am wouldn't be enough. It's something I project onto other people as well, people I hold in high regards. I've allways had difficulties being patient and making small steps and learn from mistakes, just because I couldn't stand being "insufficient". There is nothing wrong with being a newbie. This internalized judge of my worthiness allways tries to convince me that I'm either smaller or bigger than I actually am and my conscious task is to balance this misjudgment. This issue runs in my family.

-and also though it is a very difficult exercise that hurts a bit; making a bad drawing once in a while, is very good training in getting rid of selfimportance.

That's an advice I should have taken at heart back then. But better late than never. After all it's a learning process. You go in one direction until you get lost and then you take another path, draw a map, learn from mistakes. I begin to feel more comfortable with making mistakes. I tell myself: There is no need to be perfect, no need to be important, not for me or for anyone. Just be and learn from mistakes and have fun growing up.


EDIT Added a sentence, trying to make it clearer

 

[Miss.K]

and I hate when people are looking over my shoulder.

I think that´s normal, but of cause it comes from fear of being judged

I feel uncomfortable making sketches when my art director is around. Why is that? He is really good at drawing and very experienced. When he sketches something it's already quite perfect in terms of anatomy, expression of shape, style, perspective... I admire his work. He is a master of inventing stuff, characters, animals, architecture, props... To work with him is quite challenging. I'm not that fast and not that skilled but I'm learning a great deal from the collaboration. He is a really nice guy, quite modest.

It sounds like fear of being judged again, also normal I think..perhaps it would help if you remind yourself that there is a reason why he is art director (and is paid a lot more than you, and have a lot more responsibility than you) He is supposed to be a lot better! And you are not expected to be as good, then you would earn as much money and have as much responsibility.
It is again though, normal I think. at least I´ve seen a lot of very skilled people struggle with insecurities.
And it is tough to draw for a living, cause you have to do your best all the time to keep working, as there is many hardworking talents, and not that many jobs, so the fear is not completely unreasoned...

I'm so happy to be there. He is the most honest artist I know, honest in terms of rather using his imagination than relying on reference material so much. In his career he focused on drawing things from imagination. He is a good observer of human nature and very funny also.
I on the other hand spent more time on faking what I couldn't imagine, like using my digital camera for instance, staging poses, facial expressions, gestures, drapery, shadows... or I used 3d-software like 3dMax and Poser, started modeling difficult objects and used these models as direct reference or I created collage mockups from photographs. There are certainly many legitimate ways of getting realistic results. There were allways artists who used models and sophisticated staging setups and photograph's, so what? ...but I discovered that it makes you dependant and it limits your options sometimes. It also can be very time consuming. Artists like the AD who mastered the art of drawing from imagination are less limited, faster and have much more freedom of expression. When I first met this guy I was quite intimidated and part of me felt like a fraud. It's like bridging the gap of real skill when using those reference techniques.

When I started to work in animation, I came in from the street as they say (meaning no schooling) and I worked for free the first 6 months, then due to being fairly lucky and having some talent I got hired (as the lowest paid, with no responsibility) and worked myself up slowly. But for years, I certainly felt like a fake. I mean I hadn't lied, so they knew I had no former training, but I often didn't have a clue how to do what I had to do, and had to do it by faking that I knew it (to my self at least). Often I thought "when are they going to see that I don´t know what I'm doing, and fire me?" Then one day I was asked to supervice some other newbies, and that's when I learned that I knew something about what I was doing. And the funny thing was that I got a lot better from that experience. I think a mixture of getting an overview (from the position of supervisor) of what is important, and from teaching myself what I knew from having to teach others, and a boost of self confidence that I was actually able to tell right from wrong (drawing wise)

I feel more confident now, after having worked for more than 15 years in the business, but I´m painfully aware of my own shortcomings. I usually work with a guy that is a lot better than me (and 15 years younger) and am most of the time just really grateful to work with someone who I can learn from (and who is also a very good and humble person), but sometimes it hurts a bit down in my selfimportant inferiority pit in the stomach, that he can do something that looks a lot better, in less than half the time...

I feel like a musician who learned to program computers to do the job of real musicians instead of playing the instruments himself, you know, in terms of electronic music. I'm talking about a friend of mine who finally realized that he won't reach his goal that way. He was looking for ways to express himself and ended up feeling quite limited by sample-material and the stiffness of constructing melodies and beats like an architect. Then he started to play the guitar and worked hard to finally become a "real" musician, who can express himself freely by just playing what he feels, whatever melody comes to his mind. Hasn't that been my goal as well? He even combines the best of both worlds triggering synthesizers and effects with his guitar.

To some degree his music and the work of my AD represent what I was trying to achieve all those years but I feel that I followed a less honest and also less effective approach. If I had spend that much time and effort on traditional drawing lessons I would have gained much more freedom of expression by now. Ok, maybe so... but is it necessary to feel bad about it? I've edited this post many times to find out what the real issue is.

Why do I feel uncomfortable when my AD is around and why are my sketches small and light? I guess it's because I don't want anyone to see what little I can do without my electronic prothesis and devices and tricks. I feel naked without them. But that fear is kind of exaggerated and shows that I feel ashamed for myself, for being less perfect. Again it comes down to feelings of insufficiency and the need for perfection. I put so much self worth into being perfect that I feel ashamed when I can't live up to those exaggerated expectations, as if being who I am wouldn't be enough. It's something I project onto other people as well, people I hold in high regards. I've allways had difficulties being patient and making small steps and learn from mistakes, just because I couldn't stand being "insufficient". There is nothing wrong with being a newbie. This internalized judge of my worthiness allways tries to convince me that I'm either smaller or bigger than I actually am and my conscious task is to balance this misjudgment. This issue runs in my family.

I understand, and I've often thought that if I had only understood sooner that "If I had spend that much time and effort on traditional drawing lessons I would have gained much more freedom of expression by now." But that is actually never too late. It can be hard to find time for when already working with drawing....I had the fortune of being unemployed for some time some years ago, and started to draw my own stuff, and I learned soo much from having to invent the whole thing.
That being said, I´ve learned a lot from using photo material too, and from doing clean ups of someone elses really good sketches. It is hard to not fall into mindless tracing, but some of it sticks, and can be used later when drawing from scratch.

You go in one direction until you get lost and then you take another path, draw a map, learn from mistakes. I begin to feel more comfortable with making mistakes. I tell myself: There is no need to be perfect, no need to be important, not for me or for anyone. Just be and learn from mistakes and have fun growing up.

Well said :)